https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/signature-items.3622346/post-7812605
probably want to talk about it here?
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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk IV
- Thread starter Its_A_Random
- Start date
probably want to talk about it here?
Warning: lots of reading ahead.
As some of you may know, I posted about our lack of exposure in Senior Staff Requests a few days ago. For the record, here's the original post:
This got two answers, one from Oglemi and one from Birkal.
I don't have anything to say regarding its current state or the thoughts of the current SS, just thought I'd clarify why it is the way it currently is set up. I personally don't care where it ends up lol.
There are a few ideas worth discussing here and I'd like for the maximum of people which will be like 3 to react to these. I will act as spokesperson and report the conclusions we will reach here to Senoir Staff, as well as updating this post/thread if new answers are posted in the original thread.
As some of you may know, I posted about our lack of exposure in Senior Staff Requests a few days ago. For the record, here's the original post:
Greetings,
first of all, this message merely represents the general mood that has been present in the ASB Discord as of late. I have thoroughly consulted anyone that's remotely active and they agreed with me, so this isn't just my opninion on the matter.
The topic I'd like to discuss is the current status of the ASB subforum. As of now, ASB is a subforum located under Circus Maximus. It could be understandable since it's a forum game, however there are two inconsistencies with this situation: first, the icon doesn't make it appear as a full part of CM, more like "that one subforum we put there because we didn't really know what to do with it and forgot". Second, ASB is actually very different from the rest of Circus due to it being focused on Pokémon, much like the rest of Smogon. It simply feels like it doesn't belong where it is right now.
And this leads to the main complain the current staff of ASB expressed: lack of exposure. Indeed, ASB is hidden as a subsection of Circus and relegated at a visually uninteresting place (since most people would just instantly scroll down to see what's up in Circus). This is a huge problem that is currently leading to the near-extinction of ASB, since we have very few new players.
This is why the whole ASB community would like for ASB to become a full-fledged subforum of its own within the Socialization subsection, similarly to Circus Maximus itself and The Great Library (of course, these are only suggestions and my guess is that where to relocate the forum will be the crux of discussion).
We believe this would help rejuvenate the playerbase and keep the game going.
Thank you for listening.
first of all, this message merely represents the general mood that has been present in the ASB Discord as of late. I have thoroughly consulted anyone that's remotely active and they agreed with me, so this isn't just my opninion on the matter.
The topic I'd like to discuss is the current status of the ASB subforum. As of now, ASB is a subforum located under Circus Maximus. It could be understandable since it's a forum game, however there are two inconsistencies with this situation: first, the icon doesn't make it appear as a full part of CM, more like "that one subforum we put there because we didn't really know what to do with it and forgot". Second, ASB is actually very different from the rest of Circus due to it being focused on Pokémon, much like the rest of Smogon. It simply feels like it doesn't belong where it is right now.
And this leads to the main complain the current staff of ASB expressed: lack of exposure. Indeed, ASB is hidden as a subsection of Circus and relegated at a visually uninteresting place (since most people would just instantly scroll down to see what's up in Circus). This is a huge problem that is currently leading to the near-extinction of ASB, since we have very few new players.
This is why the whole ASB community would like for ASB to become a full-fledged subforum of its own within the Socialization subsection, similarly to Circus Maximus itself and The Great Library (of course, these are only suggestions and my guess is that where to relocate the forum will be the crux of discussion).
We believe this would help rejuvenate the playerbase and keep the game going.
Thank you for listening.
This got two answers, one from Oglemi and one from Birkal.
This was by design. ASB was always something that we (SS in the past) begrudgingly allowed to exist because a lot of people enjoyed it and it wasn't hurting anything, despite it not fitting with the rest of Smogon's mold. I'm sure you could find the IS thread about it from ~2011 when the forum was set up in its current state to get a feeling of the community at large regarding its presence.
I don't have anything to say regarding its current state or the thoughts of the current SS, just thought I'd clarify why it is the way it currently is set up. I personally don't care where it ends up lol.
To expand on Oglemi's post, I don't really have a preference either. I don't think what you're asking is unreasonable (it would go after Sports Arena), but I also don't think this is really what your community is struggling with.
For the SS reading this thread, I played ASB for a couple of years. I wasn't into RPing, but more into the metagame they had created and battling with people who were good players (Texas Cloverleaf, Frosty, Elevator Music, etc). ASB has a horrible reputation on Smogon, especially with how it became ingrained in Smogon's culture immediately in 2011 as "SLOWPOKE, USE WATERFALL" the game. Even though ASB evolved into an actually playable game that involved a lot of strategic thinking, it couldn't shake the viewpoint Smogon had of it. It also didn't help that Deck Knight's branding was all over the thing, and people hate(d) that guy.
I don't play ASB anymore and don't want to be associated with it. But during the busiest years of my life, ASB was way more feasible to play that Showdown; I didn't have time to sit down for five minutes and ladder, but I certainly had time to read a post, stew on my choices, and post in matches later on. This is one of the biggest advantages of ASB, but nothing in its design plays to that easier accessibility.
There are a ton of issues with ASB at the moment, from lack of leadership (it really has zero active moderators) to lack of general posting. The forum averaged 8 active threads in the past week. Years ago, that number hit 40-50 active threads daily. People are leaving because the game is just asinine to play. When new users pop into your Discord, they're given this manual to read, as if it will somehow help them. Meanwhile, veterans spend hours daily simply crunching numbers that could easily be automated or simplified. The game is absurdly convoluted for all parties involved. In terms of having it viewable as a top level forum, I don't think it has the quality to be something that deserves to be on Smogon's forums' front page.
I don't think it's all gloom and doom though. If people are really interested in keeping this alive (it didn't seem like it on Discord when I popped in a few weeks ago), you certainly could. Why not consider rebranding it if you want a top level forum? Call it something like... Battle by Post. Check out other forums that do "play by post;" I personally am really into board games, and I know people do Board Games by Post (here). Get on some sort of automated process for reffing matches and have it READY for a release. Clean up the rules; substitution clauses are a mess and instantly scare off new players. Controversial for you guys, but I would outright ban flavor (or an overabundance of it), or put it in a subforum. Start out on the right foot and make a quality forum that doesn't have years of complicated rules and unintelligible posts.
You don't have to do that -- just spitballing ideas. But I think just simply moving ASB as it currently stands is a lose-lose situation for both parties, y'know? If you want to keep playing ASB how it's made, that's fine, but I personally don't feel comfortable showcasing that on Smogon as a top level forum. So maybe think about some creative ways to make it a more attractive game to Smogon as a whole.
For the SS reading this thread, I played ASB for a couple of years. I wasn't into RPing, but more into the metagame they had created and battling with people who were good players (Texas Cloverleaf, Frosty, Elevator Music, etc). ASB has a horrible reputation on Smogon, especially with how it became ingrained in Smogon's culture immediately in 2011 as "SLOWPOKE, USE WATERFALL" the game. Even though ASB evolved into an actually playable game that involved a lot of strategic thinking, it couldn't shake the viewpoint Smogon had of it. It also didn't help that Deck Knight's branding was all over the thing, and people hate(d) that guy.
I don't play ASB anymore and don't want to be associated with it. But during the busiest years of my life, ASB was way more feasible to play that Showdown; I didn't have time to sit down for five minutes and ladder, but I certainly had time to read a post, stew on my choices, and post in matches later on. This is one of the biggest advantages of ASB, but nothing in its design plays to that easier accessibility.
There are a ton of issues with ASB at the moment, from lack of leadership (it really has zero active moderators) to lack of general posting. The forum averaged 8 active threads in the past week. Years ago, that number hit 40-50 active threads daily. People are leaving because the game is just asinine to play. When new users pop into your Discord, they're given this manual to read, as if it will somehow help them. Meanwhile, veterans spend hours daily simply crunching numbers that could easily be automated or simplified. The game is absurdly convoluted for all parties involved. In terms of having it viewable as a top level forum, I don't think it has the quality to be something that deserves to be on Smogon's forums' front page.
I don't think it's all gloom and doom though. If people are really interested in keeping this alive (it didn't seem like it on Discord when I popped in a few weeks ago), you certainly could. Why not consider rebranding it if you want a top level forum? Call it something like... Battle by Post. Check out other forums that do "play by post;" I personally am really into board games, and I know people do Board Games by Post (here). Get on some sort of automated process for reffing matches and have it READY for a release. Clean up the rules; substitution clauses are a mess and instantly scare off new players. Controversial for you guys, but I would outright ban flavor (or an overabundance of it), or put it in a subforum. Start out on the right foot and make a quality forum that doesn't have years of complicated rules and unintelligible posts.
You don't have to do that -- just spitballing ideas. But I think just simply moving ASB as it currently stands is a lose-lose situation for both parties, y'know? If you want to keep playing ASB how it's made, that's fine, but I personally don't feel comfortable showcasing that on Smogon as a top level forum. So maybe think about some creative ways to make it a more attractive game to Smogon as a whole.
There are a few ideas worth discussing here and I'd like for the maximum of people which will be like 3 to react to these. I will act as spokesperson and report the conclusions we will reach here to Senoir Staff, as well as updating this post/thread if new answers are posted in the original thread.
I've learned to trust Birkal, his opinions, and his analyses of situations over the time I've been on Smogon, and he brings up some really good points, especially as a past member of ASB.
I've personally never understood why people dislike Deck Knight, but Birkal's right when he says DK's simple presence sways opinions. It happens in CAP, where people begin to lose support for a Concept or competitive idea that DK simply supports.
Changing ASB would be... tough, to say the least. I have no idea how to implement an "automated system" of refereeing, or, hell, even what that could entail. As for banning flavor, I want to ask: Just where do we use flavor in battles outside of a referee reporting a match as though it's happening in real-time? I know that some lower-level LC battles sometimes use a little flavor with their moves, like a trainer ordering their Cupra to Bug Buzz a Rock Slide into dust. But I personally never used those mechanics, and after being here for longer than I year, trying to find them is like trying to find that one jacket that your mom put in storage. There're are so many boxes (threads) to look through, and if you find one that might have what you're looking for, you still have to dig through it shirt by shirt (post by post) until you either find it or you don't.
But I do agree with Birkal on one point: Rebranding ASB and starting it as something new will attract people's attention. If we can advertise the whole "this is great for people who don't have a lot of time", then you can get people coming who, like Birkal, just don't have the time to ladder.
Perhaps if we were to build something like a pseudo-Showdown, where people advertise what kind battle they want to do, like 3v3 LC or 6v6 OU, or, hell, even an Ubers game into a matchmaking thread, and then go into a Compendium and copy/paste what fully-trained mons they want to use, then we could do something like a "Board Game by post", except "Battle by Post". It eliminates a lot of what makes ASB tedious, like leveling things up and evolving, buying moves and abilities, etc in the Prize Claiming Thread, which what I see as what's scaring off new people. They think "I just spent 2 hours building three Pokemon's profiles from scratch, now I have to spend another hour just to evolve one of them?" They don't want to get in another battle without evolving, tho, so the new player just gets stuck in a limbo. Making ASB more easily and readily accessible will interest and keep new people, especially with the interesting mechanics we do have, like Combos, Subs, and a distinct lack of 4MSS.
I've personally never understood why people dislike Deck Knight, but Birkal's right when he says DK's simple presence sways opinions. It happens in CAP, where people begin to lose support for a Concept or competitive idea that DK simply supports.
Changing ASB would be... tough, to say the least. I have no idea how to implement an "automated system" of refereeing, or, hell, even what that could entail. As for banning flavor, I want to ask: Just where do we use flavor in battles outside of a referee reporting a match as though it's happening in real-time? I know that some lower-level LC battles sometimes use a little flavor with their moves, like a trainer ordering their Cupra to Bug Buzz a Rock Slide into dust. But I personally never used those mechanics, and after being here for longer than I year, trying to find them is like trying to find that one jacket that your mom put in storage. There're are so many boxes (threads) to look through, and if you find one that might have what you're looking for, you still have to dig through it shirt by shirt (post by post) until you either find it or you don't.
But I do agree with Birkal on one point: Rebranding ASB and starting it as something new will attract people's attention. If we can advertise the whole "this is great for people who don't have a lot of time", then you can get people coming who, like Birkal, just don't have the time to ladder.
Perhaps if we were to build something like a pseudo-Showdown, where people advertise what kind battle they want to do, like 3v3 LC or 6v6 OU, or, hell, even an Ubers game into a matchmaking thread, and then go into a Compendium and copy/paste what fully-trained mons they want to use, then we could do something like a "Board Game by post", except "Battle by Post". It eliminates a lot of what makes ASB tedious, like leveling things up and evolving, buying moves and abilities, etc in the Prize Claiming Thread, which what I see as what's scaring off new people. They think "I just spent 2 hours building three Pokemon's profiles from scratch, now I have to spend another hour just to evolve one of them?" They don't want to get in another battle without evolving, tho, so the new player just gets stuck in a limbo. Making ASB more easily and readily accessible will interest and keep new people, especially with the interesting mechanics we do have, like Combos, Subs, and a distinct lack of 4MSS.
Flavor is also used in some moves like Water Gun and the like.
I am personally opposed to removing flavor and especially leveling and evolving, as this is what makes ASB so enjoyable in my eyes, much more than Showdown: you can really roleplay as a Trainer, finding new Pokémon, growing alongside them and having a little story for each of them.
I'll say it plain and simple: I don't want a pseudo-Showdown.
If that's what ASB needs to come back in full force, then I'll help building it, I may even play this new version. But I certainly don't like the idea of creating another "cold number system" game.
I do agree, though, on the fact we need to simplify and/or organize our stuff better, something that Jayy has already begun doing.
If we end up taking that route, the main question is: how do we do it, and to what extent?
Just my own two cents on the matter.
tl;dr: please don't remove all flavor from the game, lemme enjoy my fantasy
I am personally opposed to removing flavor and especially leveling and evolving, as this is what makes ASB so enjoyable in my eyes, much more than Showdown: you can really roleplay as a Trainer, finding new Pokémon, growing alongside them and having a little story for each of them.
I'll say it plain and simple: I don't want a pseudo-Showdown.
If that's what ASB needs to come back in full force, then I'll help building it, I may even play this new version. But I certainly don't like the idea of creating another "cold number system" game.
I do agree, though, on the fact we need to simplify and/or organize our stuff better, something that Jayy has already begun doing.
If we end up taking that route, the main question is: how do we do it, and to what extent?
Just my own two cents on the matter.
tl;dr: please don't remove all flavor from the game, lemme enjoy my fantasy
Birkal's right on the money. The game as it is right now is a huge, tangled mess of pointless rules and needless bureaucracy. Substitution rules are absurdly convoluted and the fact that battles can be won or lost on typos or obscure technicalities is ridiculous. We joke about this being a game for pedants and rules lawyers but don't do anything to actually fix this problem and every time we change substitution rules things get even more confusing. With the game as it is right now, human refs are unnecessary and massively slowing down the game, and manual claim approving wastes everyone's time, especially for approvers.
It wouldn't be very hard at all to implement a semi-automated reffing system. Fully-automated would be tough with all the random effects going on though. Flavor is nice, but it slows things down tremendously. Most of the "flavory" people are also people who are very prone to shirk their duties, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Sure there's the whole quality over quantity thing but keeping things not moving at a glacial pace is important too. The subforum thing might be a good idea, and if it becomes popular it can be expanded later.
We definitely need an actual beginner's guide, because the documents we have right now are scattered and outdated and don't really explain things very well, and I thought someone was in the process of writing one like a year ago but there's nothing in sight.
Honestly, it might be better to re-build the game from the ground-up. There's like 6 active users left.
It wouldn't be very hard at all to implement a semi-automated reffing system. Fully-automated would be tough with all the random effects going on though. Flavor is nice, but it slows things down tremendously. Most of the "flavory" people are also people who are very prone to shirk their duties, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Sure there's the whole quality over quantity thing but keeping things not moving at a glacial pace is important too. The subforum thing might be a good idea, and if it becomes popular it can be expanded later.
We definitely need an actual beginner's guide, because the documents we have right now are scattered and outdated and don't really explain things very well, and I thought someone was in the process of writing one like a year ago but there's nothing in sight.
Honestly, it might be better to re-build the game from the ground-up. There's like 6 active users left.
Its not like we did the new rules aiming for more complicated. Every change of the mechanics was done aiming for something simpler. Whether we achieved that is another discussion entirely, but its not like this is some brand new marvelous idea that was never thought off before. Several cycles of changes were done (probably all of them) to achieve everything posted here and apparently they all failed to some degree.
Not saying this as a means of discouraging, but merely stating that this isn't as easy as it seems. So if you want to do something that wasn't done before, it will take a lot of studying and a lot of effort. Any half-assed attempts to prettify whatever may make things, well, prettier, but won't make a splash unless you really dig deep here.
Still, I don't buy the idea that this is merely a matter of mechanics. Mind you it is partially a matter of mechanics, as far as refs are concerned. Making it easier to ref surely is part of the solution. But I feel that the major issue regards commitment. Most battles here pass DQ easily even though they are reffed by competent refs who surely know how to do it and can ref a round in 10-15min. In some cases the player ordering is taking long and it takes what, 5min to order? Less depending on the case. But still we have many people signing up for battles and simply not only not posting but also not giving a damn about posting on time and bragging about it on discord. I don't know about you, but if I don't have a reasonable degree of confidence that my opponent or my ref will post on time, I surely won't bother to start anything even if the mechanics are clean as a whistle.
That is my take on this.
Not saying this as a means of discouraging, but merely stating that this isn't as easy as it seems. So if you want to do something that wasn't done before, it will take a lot of studying and a lot of effort. Any half-assed attempts to prettify whatever may make things, well, prettier, but won't make a splash unless you really dig deep here.
Still, I don't buy the idea that this is merely a matter of mechanics. Mind you it is partially a matter of mechanics, as far as refs are concerned. Making it easier to ref surely is part of the solution. But I feel that the major issue regards commitment. Most battles here pass DQ easily even though they are reffed by competent refs who surely know how to do it and can ref a round in 10-15min. In some cases the player ordering is taking long and it takes what, 5min to order? Less depending on the case. But still we have many people signing up for battles and simply not only not posting but also not giving a damn about posting on time and bragging about it on discord. I don't know about you, but if I don't have a reasonable degree of confidence that my opponent or my ref will post on time, I surely won't bother to start anything even if the mechanics are clean as a whistle.
That is my take on this.
I've joined and rejoined ASB several times and what always brings me back is that I love the progression of building up new pokemon, moves with flavorful properties, and different move combos. If we try a complete overhaul I don't mind helping with the data entry, but don't lose sight of what made it fun to begin with.
If we want to streamline the reffing process, we have some great tools at our disposal like ASBot for example. It's completely within the realm of reason to plug a set of orders (after the ref interprets subs and combo feasibility) into a program using similar technology to ASBot and having the results spat back. Granted that's a big ask, but efforts to automate parts of the reffing process would probably be an effective course of action.
If we want to streamline the reffing process, we have some great tools at our disposal like ASBot for example. It's completely within the realm of reason to plug a set of orders (after the ref interprets subs and combo feasibility) into a program using similar technology to ASBot and having the results spat back. Granted that's a big ask, but efforts to automate parts of the reffing process would probably be an effective course of action.
Wait, there are seriously people here who only take five minutes to order? I typically spend about 30 minutes deliberating orders in front of my computer (sometimes closer to an hour). And even then I still frequently overlook things like getting move names mixed up. How long does it usually take people to order?
Anyways, I can't recommend letting users battle with cut-and-paste fully-trained profiles because of how overwhelming it could feel to try to play, especially for new players. I feel we have to preserve some kind of progressive factor like evolution or learning moves in order to keep the learning curve in check and to encourage players to continue playing. Substitution rules could definitely use a rework, although I can't think of ways to simplify them without drastic changes. As pedantic as they are, the amount of flexibility they provide was the biggest draw that brought me here to begin with.
Also agree that streamlining reffing seems like a great direction to take.
oh boy, this is gonna be a doozy, so so many concerns brought up, where to begin
1. Lack of active moderators
I'm just going to be real about this one, this has bothered me for a good while. Never really bothered piping up about the fact that we didn't have any truly active mods just because it became easy enough for me to shadow-run everything without it, as we've joked about far too many times on the discord. If we are going to get anywhere, we definitely need to have an active mod team, rather than what I believe is now just ZT and my seemingly wide reach.
2. Substitution Rules
These rules really are not that complicated. There's a couple things here or there that need to be clarified better, namely the definition of a chance clause, but otherwise it's just 9 rules to keep substitutions from being too powerful.
3. Lack of Organization
I agree wholeheartedly and it's an effort I began a week or so ago to start reorganizing the data in ASB, mostly just trying to compile information and keep the Handbook up-to-date, because rulings always seem to elude the main source of rulings. This is what I'm going to say is ASB's biggest problem, the fact that all of our rulings information are based loosely on which experienced member is around at the time to find the right thread/conversation.
4. Rebuilding/Rebranding ASB
Never thought about it this way, but it would make sense that having the name Deck Knight associated with us for long has stained our reputation. It's something I didn't really notice until I began branching into other communities, but that indeed is something that has stuck with us. A fresh start to escape that would help us a lot. Here's some bits and pieces about a potential reboot that need to be considered:
Flavor - Quite frankly, flavor in ASB is about 99% dead, it's only real remnant is in how Deck decided what moves would have combo tech. It's something we may be able to keep with us, but I don't know yet.
Progression - This is something we need to find a gentle balance between. We do not need starting players slugging through molasses to become relevant, but we also do not want to completely axe the feeling of progression. And more importantly, we need to do a better job of providing quality end-game material to keep our users interested, which leads into---
Content - The core content of ASB, battles/gyms/tourneys, are fine as is. Might need to tweak our gym arena balancing system, but that's a trivial task. As for the rest of ASB, all of what we have called "Roleplays," need to be pruned through individually and either reworked, rebalanced, or effectively removed. None of them remain up-to-date at all times, not too many of them feel like quality content for parties to be involved in, with a slight exception to Battle Hall.
Details to be worked out as I figure out what direction this conversation is leading us in, but I figured I'd share the insights I've gathered from having to take most of everything underneath me.
5. Automated Reffing
No BS, this is a rather pointless topic point. There has a been a reffing calculator since before I even joined ASB. It is simply just faster for me to type out the calcs that I already have in my head into ASBot or any other standard calculator to get the number I'm after. For new players an automated calculator, such as what we already have, is fantastic. But it serves little purpose for experienced players who have no doubt committed the most important formula in the game to memory.
Yes, we could upgrade the reffing calculator, or I could upgrade ASBot to have an automated calculator within it, but that is just far more work than its worth.
6. Commitment
Frosty's point about the level of commitment to ASB is staggeringly accurate, and I have to admit that I am definitely a part of the problem there. I've been wavering off lately just because a lot of ASB has become a chore for me. With wavering activity levels, I got stuck picking up slack that would've otherwise crashed, and I get tasked with handling a lot of the behind-the-scenes stuff, which drains the amount of time I feel like putting into the system. This is relevant, trust me.
- ASB players fall into one of three categories: avid battler, avid ref, lurker. The problems in ASB always rise the hardest when the avid refs finally burn the fuck out from not having people available to referee their own battles. (Me and Toon always joked that us finding a ref for things would literally be the hardest thing ever)
- Going back to my point about the content earlier, we need to provide more worthwhile and achieveable goals if we are going to keep the interest of our players. Thinking back on it, it's hilariously absurd to me that it's taken Frosty and Emma each about 5-6 years to get their 18th gym badge, and until about 2 months ago, the reward wasn't even close to worth it.
- Management of each facet of ASB needs to have a fallback system that properly divides the work throughout the "upper eschelon" of the commnity
===============================================================
Overall Thoughts
- ASB needs to be reconstructed and reorganized. I want our community to thrive, and a part of that definitely needs to be shaking the paltry reputation that we have. Not to mention, there's a number of issues that the current arrangement of ASB does not address.
- ASB needs to have active leadership members that are accurately appointed as active leadership. There's no reason to have people shadow-running things
- I will not do the work on revamping ASB alone, hear that now. There's a laundry list of things that need to be done, and I'll be damned if I try tackling all of ASB's problems alone again.
- ASB does indeed need an updated beginner's guide, but that can come after we decide what direction we are taking ASB.
1. Lack of active moderators
I'm just going to be real about this one, this has bothered me for a good while. Never really bothered piping up about the fact that we didn't have any truly active mods just because it became easy enough for me to shadow-run everything without it, as we've joked about far too many times on the discord. If we are going to get anywhere, we definitely need to have an active mod team, rather than what I believe is now just ZT and my seemingly wide reach.
2. Substitution Rules
These rules really are not that complicated. There's a couple things here or there that need to be clarified better, namely the definition of a chance clause, but otherwise it's just 9 rules to keep substitutions from being too powerful.
3. Lack of Organization
I agree wholeheartedly and it's an effort I began a week or so ago to start reorganizing the data in ASB, mostly just trying to compile information and keep the Handbook up-to-date, because rulings always seem to elude the main source of rulings. This is what I'm going to say is ASB's biggest problem, the fact that all of our rulings information are based loosely on which experienced member is around at the time to find the right thread/conversation.
4. Rebuilding/Rebranding ASB
Never thought about it this way, but it would make sense that having the name Deck Knight associated with us for long has stained our reputation. It's something I didn't really notice until I began branching into other communities, but that indeed is something that has stuck with us. A fresh start to escape that would help us a lot. Here's some bits and pieces about a potential reboot that need to be considered:
Flavor - Quite frankly, flavor in ASB is about 99% dead, it's only real remnant is in how Deck decided what moves would have combo tech. It's something we may be able to keep with us, but I don't know yet.
Progression - This is something we need to find a gentle balance between. We do not need starting players slugging through molasses to become relevant, but we also do not want to completely axe the feeling of progression. And more importantly, we need to do a better job of providing quality end-game material to keep our users interested, which leads into---
Content - The core content of ASB, battles/gyms/tourneys, are fine as is. Might need to tweak our gym arena balancing system, but that's a trivial task. As for the rest of ASB, all of what we have called "Roleplays," need to be pruned through individually and either reworked, rebalanced, or effectively removed. None of them remain up-to-date at all times, not too many of them feel like quality content for parties to be involved in, with a slight exception to Battle Hall.
Details to be worked out as I figure out what direction this conversation is leading us in, but I figured I'd share the insights I've gathered from having to take most of everything underneath me.
5. Automated Reffing
No BS, this is a rather pointless topic point. There has a been a reffing calculator since before I even joined ASB. It is simply just faster for me to type out the calcs that I already have in my head into ASBot or any other standard calculator to get the number I'm after. For new players an automated calculator, such as what we already have, is fantastic. But it serves little purpose for experienced players who have no doubt committed the most important formula in the game to memory.
Yes, we could upgrade the reffing calculator, or I could upgrade ASBot to have an automated calculator within it, but that is just far more work than its worth.
6. Commitment
Frosty's point about the level of commitment to ASB is staggeringly accurate, and I have to admit that I am definitely a part of the problem there. I've been wavering off lately just because a lot of ASB has become a chore for me. With wavering activity levels, I got stuck picking up slack that would've otherwise crashed, and I get tasked with handling a lot of the behind-the-scenes stuff, which drains the amount of time I feel like putting into the system. This is relevant, trust me.
- ASB players fall into one of three categories: avid battler, avid ref, lurker. The problems in ASB always rise the hardest when the avid refs finally burn the fuck out from not having people available to referee their own battles. (Me and Toon always joked that us finding a ref for things would literally be the hardest thing ever)
- Going back to my point about the content earlier, we need to provide more worthwhile and achieveable goals if we are going to keep the interest of our players. Thinking back on it, it's hilariously absurd to me that it's taken Frosty and Emma each about 5-6 years to get their 18th gym badge, and until about 2 months ago, the reward wasn't even close to worth it.
- Management of each facet of ASB needs to have a fallback system that properly divides the work throughout the "upper eschelon" of the commnity
===============================================================
Overall Thoughts
- ASB needs to be reconstructed and reorganized. I want our community to thrive, and a part of that definitely needs to be shaking the paltry reputation that we have. Not to mention, there's a number of issues that the current arrangement of ASB does not address.
- ASB needs to have active leadership members that are accurately appointed as active leadership. There's no reason to have people shadow-running things
- I will not do the work on revamping ASB alone, hear that now. There's a laundry list of things that need to be done, and I'll be damned if I try tackling all of ASB's problems alone again.
- ASB does indeed need an updated beginner's guide, but that can come after we decide what direction we are taking ASB.
Another thought: we may want to consider making reffing an obligatory part of ASB (to some extent). Perhaps imposing some kind of reffing-to-battling ratio.
Also, what exactly are the problems with the Beginner's Handbook? It's a bit outdated admittedly but I've never felt that it was unorganized, even when I read it for the first time.
Also, what exactly are the problems with the Beginner's Handbook? It's a bit outdated admittedly but I've never felt that it was unorganized, even when I read it for the first time.
I thought I should I give my thoughts on this, since I still think I am a relatively new player to ASB in general.
As a beginner, I can say without a doubt that it is the terrible mess of information that can make ASB so unappealing and hard to stay with. If I wanted to find one very specific ruling on something or how to do something, I consistently had to look through numerous different threads and eventually find it in one very specific spot in a thread. I would also ask veterans about the different things on Discord, which actually proved a much more consistent answer. And when senior members, which there aren't that many as of right now, are able to give faster answers to what would be simple questions than the resources that should be easily accessible, I think the data management seriously does have a problem. Also, I can assure you that while it may not be helpful for veterans, that Reffing Calculator would have been helpful when starting would have stopped a lot of my early reffing errors. Putting that in an easily accessible place (or places) could be hugely helpful for newcomers.
Edit: nvm already there github is just super intimidating
I'm worried about turning ASB into a pseudo-Showdown more for optical reasons and what people could perceive ASB as. While Granny Pie's suggestion could increase our player base through diversity, I'm worried that it may have the complete opposite effect. "Its like Showdown except you have to do all the math yourself and you have to account for all of these options and stuff!" Giving people straight OU teams with all of the moves would be massively stressful and intimidate for almost every party who hasn't had massive experiences with ASB, and would likely push away new players imo. That sounds stressful as hell, and I would not play ASB if I had to do that.
As for flavor, I think that it is mostly dead. While I don't think it should be completely banished (slowly evolving my mons and getting more and more mvoes is actually quite enjoyable), and I actually enjoy flavory banter for order posts with people like nightblitz, I absolutely think that unneccesary flavor that exists should be cut. Like why does that Water Gun effect even exist?
My final beginner point is going to be content. While there are certainly concerns about rewards for older players to keep them around, I'm not gonna focus on that since other members can do it way better than I ever could. Instead, I'm going to focus on the beginner experience. Being perfectly frank, ASB in the early game is a complete and utter slog. In the beginning, maybe assuming you have accumulated maybe 5 or 6 CC just by doing a few test battles to get the mechanics down, but you want to try something else. You obviously can't do Gym Battles, since they will either reject you or will utterly destroy you. Even the simple Legend Runs like Mysterious Cove are pretty much off limits since they practically require decently evolved mons and a good amount of CC to actually buy stuff for Backpacks. Raids are even less approachable for these reasons, and these things can be as tough as nails even with fully evolved mons, so you would stand no chance. Battle Pike is FULL of fully evolved mons, so you are likely to get utterly screwed over and are almost guaranteed to lose. Battle Hall seems like a decent option, although you need a good movepool to get anywhere decent with it. The Anime-style simulator could work with Salutane Forest and Magikarp Trainer, but once again requires CC for backpacks and having fully evolved mons really help down the line. Even battles besides training ones seem hard to reach for a new comer, as normal items cost such high amount of CC when I could buy another mon for so much less. It just feels so unaccessible for new players. And while I understand that we could be getting Super Baloon Training, I still think it is a major problem.
As a beginner, I can say without a doubt that it is the terrible mess of information that can make ASB so unappealing and hard to stay with. If I wanted to find one very specific ruling on something or how to do something, I consistently had to look through numerous different threads and eventually find it in one very specific spot in a thread. I would also ask veterans about the different things on Discord, which actually proved a much more consistent answer. And when senior members, which there aren't that many as of right now, are able to give faster answers to what would be simple questions than the resources that should be easily accessible, I think the data management seriously does have a problem. Also, I can assure you that while it may not be helpful for veterans, that Reffing Calculator would have been helpful when starting would have stopped a lot of my early reffing errors. Putting that in an easily accessible place (or places) could be hugely helpful for newcomers.
Edit: nvm already there github is just super intimidating
I'm worried about turning ASB into a pseudo-Showdown more for optical reasons and what people could perceive ASB as. While Granny Pie's suggestion could increase our player base through diversity, I'm worried that it may have the complete opposite effect. "Its like Showdown except you have to do all the math yourself and you have to account for all of these options and stuff!" Giving people straight OU teams with all of the moves would be massively stressful and intimidate for almost every party who hasn't had massive experiences with ASB, and would likely push away new players imo. That sounds stressful as hell, and I would not play ASB if I had to do that.
As for flavor, I think that it is mostly dead. While I don't think it should be completely banished (slowly evolving my mons and getting more and more mvoes is actually quite enjoyable), and I actually enjoy flavory banter for order posts with people like nightblitz, I absolutely think that unneccesary flavor that exists should be cut. Like why does that Water Gun effect even exist?
My final beginner point is going to be content. While there are certainly concerns about rewards for older players to keep them around, I'm not gonna focus on that since other members can do it way better than I ever could. Instead, I'm going to focus on the beginner experience. Being perfectly frank, ASB in the early game is a complete and utter slog. In the beginning, maybe assuming you have accumulated maybe 5 or 6 CC just by doing a few test battles to get the mechanics down, but you want to try something else. You obviously can't do Gym Battles, since they will either reject you or will utterly destroy you. Even the simple Legend Runs like Mysterious Cove are pretty much off limits since they practically require decently evolved mons and a good amount of CC to actually buy stuff for Backpacks. Raids are even less approachable for these reasons, and these things can be as tough as nails even with fully evolved mons, so you would stand no chance. Battle Pike is FULL of fully evolved mons, so you are likely to get utterly screwed over and are almost guaranteed to lose. Battle Hall seems like a decent option, although you need a good movepool to get anywhere decent with it. The Anime-style simulator could work with Salutane Forest and Magikarp Trainer, but once again requires CC for backpacks and having fully evolved mons really help down the line. Even battles besides training ones seem hard to reach for a new comer, as normal items cost such high amount of CC when I could buy another mon for so much less. It just feels so unaccessible for new players. And while I understand that we could be getting Super Baloon Training, I still think it is a major problem.
I have a bit to add to this conversation.
First of all, I completely agree with the lack of an active moderation team being a problem. You can't really blame the mods for having other responsibilities that come first, but what needs to happen is an overhaul of the team if that is going to be the case. I could see JJayyFeather as an easy pick for moderator, and I'm there would be other good fits as well.
I also want to touch on the point about player progression. Bottom line, we shouldn't eliminate it. Like Lucario said, turning ASB into do-it-yourself showdown won't drive activity. What we need is more for new players to get off of their feet. Changes to RPs to have beginner friendly routes, like in the A.S.S.. Perhaps a small RP similar to Legend Run with the storyline and unique challenges, but on a small scale and with smaller rewards (obviously no legendaries). Make new players feel like there are plenty of options right from the get go, and with more options comes more rewards, allowing new players to establish a well-rounded team of evolved Pokemon to take on higher-tier challenges.
Similarly, flavour should not be outlawed. But it also shouldn't be encouraged. It's no secret that it slows people down, but removing it feels like a kick in the shins for people who could be on time with flavour.
First of all, I completely agree with the lack of an active moderation team being a problem. You can't really blame the mods for having other responsibilities that come first, but what needs to happen is an overhaul of the team if that is going to be the case. I could see JJayyFeather as an easy pick for moderator, and I'm there would be other good fits as well.
I also want to touch on the point about player progression. Bottom line, we shouldn't eliminate it. Like Lucario said, turning ASB into do-it-yourself showdown won't drive activity. What we need is more for new players to get off of their feet. Changes to RPs to have beginner friendly routes, like in the A.S.S.. Perhaps a small RP similar to Legend Run with the storyline and unique challenges, but on a small scale and with smaller rewards (obviously no legendaries). Make new players feel like there are plenty of options right from the get go, and with more options comes more rewards, allowing new players to establish a well-rounded team of evolved Pokemon to take on higher-tier challenges.
Similarly, flavour should not be outlawed. But it also shouldn't be encouraged. It's no secret that it slows people down, but removing it feels like a kick in the shins for people who could be on time with flavour.
What I'll say from skimming the above posts so far. Personal opinions, having mulled through what Oglemi and Birks replied (TMan showed it to me before posting here).
Player progression: This is a controversy. Some people want to hit the ground running, others want to be able to enjoy watching pets grow into titans, or monster, or waifus. Rental Tournaments could be extended into Rental Battles for those who want to enjoy quickies, but it may be too divisive to the community to be sustainable.
Content: I'll agree with LoL that what we have here is enough to keep regulars going, but not beginner-friendly enough. I'd like to keep what we have, including the DAT, and Facilities that are still operating or have a good track record of being enjoyable (namely Hall, Pike, maybe TLR/Raid). Overhauling either of the two is too much effort and time if we want to rebrand ASAP.
Core mechanics: While I did say something above, I believe minor tweaks can be adjusted to the battling system that can help reduce time-to-think-before-posting and therefore, commitment requirements. Again, those below may seem controversial, so open to debate.
Mod team: I'll leave that to Dogfish. If he's not responsive then ping me on Discord and I'll take over.
Flavour: Kill flavour and I'll immediately leave Smogon. See no strikethrough? Means I'm not kidding. At all. Leave it as a default-off switch setting it currently is. Not a threat, just a statement.
Reffbot: If a programmer stands up and is willing to release and maintain it, I'll stand by the programmer. If not, there's nothing I can do.
Player progression: This is a controversy. Some people want to hit the ground running, others want to be able to enjoy watching pets grow into titans, or monster
Content: I'll agree with LoL that what we have here is enough to keep regulars going, but not beginner-friendly enough. I'd like to keep what we have, including the DAT, and Facilities that are still operating or have a good track record of being enjoyable (namely Hall, Pike, maybe TLR/Raid). Overhauling either of the two is too much effort and time if we want to rebrand ASAP.
Core mechanics: While I did say something above, I believe minor tweaks can be adjusted to the battling system that can help reduce time-to-think-before-posting and therefore, commitment requirements. Again, those below may seem controversial, so open to debate.
- Halve all HP and EN values, to speed up all matches in general, and reduce time commitments.
- Default/Allow 1APR matches, which can indirectly clean up Substitution rules because you no longer have to factor previous / future actions within the same round.
Mod team: I'll leave that to Dogfish. If he's not responsive then ping me on Discord and I'll take over.
Flavour: Kill flavour and I'll immediately leave Smogon. See no strikethrough? Means I'm not kidding. At all. Leave it as a default-off switch setting it currently is. Not a threat, just a statement.
Reffbot: If a programmer stands up and is willing to release and maintain it, I'll stand by the programmer. If not, there's nothing I can do.
Follow-up just to keep all my thoughts aired in a more reference-able space.
I've begun sorting out the list of tasks we ought to complete if we are going to revamp and rebrand ASB. People who have shown interest in assisting will receive their starting tasks soon enough. The list of tasks is always subject to change as new vital topics come up, and if anyone who hasn't already informed me that they would like to help wants to help, please let me know.
As for actual discussion things
Battling Mechanics: This has been added to the scope of the changes as of a conversation I had with Lou last night. I agree that the current battling system has a minor issue, as ZT has mentioned, in the speed of the battles. The planned tweaks to the battling mechanics right now are seeming like a simple streamlining of how ranks are applied to the damage calculation via increasing its impact and universalizing the impact across all ranks. On average, I think this change will increase the TTK a little bit while avoiding creating a psuedo-showdown effect of just running everything over at hyper-speeds.
As far as changing the format of battle, we'll see. 1 APR matches is actually a grand departure from what makes ASB rather unique. Combinations become effectively useless (a la Hyper Beam in-game), Endure loses all value without what could be a stupid strong tweak, the substitution game shifts to heavily favor the person ordering first, and interestingly enough, does not shorten time-per-game that much, even with halved HP due to the fact that things will still on average take 3 hits to KO. But most importantly, 1 APR is too close to Showdown's battle style, which from what I've seen here, is something we do not want to go near. But again, we'll see. Maybe it ends up being the best fit for what we want for ASB.
Flavor: Not going anywhere
Content: Gears are getting started for working on beginner-friendly content. More details to come, but things to expect: reworked TLRs, updates to most existing RPs, a new RP, and Gym League expansion, all with an emphasis on being worthwhile both as a beginner and as a veteran
Progression: Not going anywhere. It's just going to be streamlined a bit. As is, it's a very steep climb to the top, which is a big factor in low retention that needs to be fixed
I've begun sorting out the list of tasks we ought to complete if we are going to revamp and rebrand ASB. People who have shown interest in assisting will receive their starting tasks soon enough. The list of tasks is always subject to change as new vital topics come up, and if anyone who hasn't already informed me that they would like to help wants to help, please let me know.
As for actual discussion things
Battling Mechanics: This has been added to the scope of the changes as of a conversation I had with Lou last night. I agree that the current battling system has a minor issue, as ZT has mentioned, in the speed of the battles. The planned tweaks to the battling mechanics right now are seeming like a simple streamlining of how ranks are applied to the damage calculation via increasing its impact and universalizing the impact across all ranks. On average, I think this change will increase the TTK a little bit while avoiding creating a psuedo-showdown effect of just running everything over at hyper-speeds.
As far as changing the format of battle, we'll see. 1 APR matches is actually a grand departure from what makes ASB rather unique. Combinations become effectively useless (a la Hyper Beam in-game), Endure loses all value without what could be a stupid strong tweak, the substitution game shifts to heavily favor the person ordering first, and interestingly enough, does not shorten time-per-game that much, even with halved HP due to the fact that things will still on average take 3 hits to KO. But most importantly, 1 APR is too close to Showdown's battle style, which from what I've seen here, is something we do not want to go near. But again, we'll see. Maybe it ends up being the best fit for what we want for ASB.
Flavor: Not going anywhere
Content: Gears are getting started for working on beginner-friendly content. More details to come, but things to expect: reworked TLRs, updates to most existing RPs, a new RP, and Gym League expansion, all with an emphasis on being worthwhile both as a beginner and as a veteran
Progression: Not going anywhere. It's just going to be streamlined a bit. As is, it's a very steep climb to the top, which is a big factor in low retention that needs to be fixed
The first effect of the Solar Ray item is bizarrely vague:
The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song).
It does not define what a "negative effect" is, leading to many potentially confusing cases which could only be resolved through Word of God. For example:
The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to thenegative effects of an opponent's Pokemon's Status moves which target it, and also makes the Pokemon immune to status conditions caused by an opponent's Pokemon's Status moves.
The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song).
It does not define what a "negative effect" is, leading to many potentially confusing cases which could only be resolved through Word of God. For example:
- Opponent uses Sandstorm. Does the holder take weather damage?
- Opponent uses Electric Terrain. Holder uses Rest. Does Rest fail?
- Holder has a mixture of stat increases and decreases. Opponent uses Haze. Does user keep all stat changes? Only positive stat changes?
- Is Trick prevented by this item?
- What about Mind Reader?
- Does the holder ignore Reflect/Light Screen/Aura Veil?
- Does the holder ignore P/E moves?
- Does the holder take incoming damage from Stealth Rocks?
- Is the holder affected by an opponent's Trick Room?
The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the
Geodude6
Look at my shiny CT!
I brought this up on Discord, but I might as well post here too: While we're stripping out various Deck-isms, can we remove the self-taunt from Belly Drum? It unnecessarily limits Belly Drum's user, when they already have a sizable chunk taken out of their HP. I and others have brought this up multiple times on the forum/IRC/now Discord, and it always gets a general murmur of agreement, but nothing is ever done.
I'm going to say no from me, my teammates are more than welcome to overrule me if they feel it is necessary. But considering we allow the +6 to be permanent and the fact that Pain Split exists as a move, I'm not in favor of buffing a move that might be stronger than it is presently in the new system.