Oh man I need to start reading better or get some glasses ._.
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Chandelure and DW tier
- Thread starter Matthew
- Start date
Since when? If it can check it, it can check it and that makes it a check, regardless of whether or not it's in OU.
Since always.
A check or a counter to an OU poke must have high enough usage in order for it to be relevant.
This isn't at all what he's saying -.-
If I make a team based around sweeping with double boost Terrakion, I don't need to have a way to deal with Claydol, even though it does check Terrakion. The number of times it could present a problem are insignificant.
Insignificant, but it can happen.
A lot of the same Pokemon used to handle Pokemon that are actually OU could be used to deal with Claydol anyway. Ground/Psychic typing brings it six weaknesses, i.e. a lot more ways to deal with it.
I have seen Typhlosion in OU once, and have personally used it in OU many times. Has it presented a problem to me when I faced it? No. Has it presented a problem to me when I used it? No.
That's what I'm trying to say. Just because it isn't OU doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning.
Of 'course you can use it and it is possible that it will fit into your team better than any other pursuiter.
But this is not the point.
When someone is making a team he will take in mind only the more dominant threats.Because there are only so much you can cover with 6 pokes.
So if someone wants some solid answers for Chandelure he will usually try to add the best and more used.
Because not only they counter the thread they want solidly but because the do many things well.
So you cannot count things that are very low in usage,because there is a reason for their usage.
They are not good enough.
And if they are not good enough you cannot rely on them for countering top threats,especially when you want them doing also other things,and not being useful only in one aspect.
Noone said that it is not worth mentioning.
I said that it is not a reliable check for such a dominant and overpowered threat like Chandelure.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
There are better pokemon for checking politoed and latios especially.
The claydol comparison doesn't work because Claydol isn't used very often. On the other hand, chandelure is everywhere. Unlike Claydol, you WOULD pack checks because you really have no choice.
I see what Alex is saying because a pokemon needs to be able to perform another role in OU outside of countering just one thing (believe me, lanturn did more than just counter thundurus and Rotom-W in OU. >_>). I could use houndoom as my scarflure check, tailoring his build to work in the OU metagame so that he could do more than just check chandelure. The problem with this is that most people will be unable to do so and still have their team work. Why should you be forced to carry a houndoom when you could simply use something better? What other pokemon does houndoom check aside from just chandy?
This is part of the reason why latios isn't banned. The pokemon who check/handle it are not completely useless at handling other things.
On the other hand, everybody seemed fine with using crap like azumarrill of all things to handle blaziken, despite it not actually doing so under the weather he usually accompanied.
The claydol comparison doesn't work because Claydol isn't used very often. On the other hand, chandelure is everywhere. Unlike Claydol, you WOULD pack checks because you really have no choice.
I see what Alex is saying because a pokemon needs to be able to perform another role in OU outside of countering just one thing (believe me, lanturn did more than just counter thundurus and Rotom-W in OU. >_>). I could use houndoom as my scarflure check, tailoring his build to work in the OU metagame so that he could do more than just check chandelure. The problem with this is that most people will be unable to do so and still have their team work. Why should you be forced to carry a houndoom when you could simply use something better? What other pokemon does houndoom check aside from just chandy?
This is part of the reason why latios isn't banned. The pokemon who check/handle it are not completely useless at handling other things.
On the other hand, everybody seemed fine with using crap like azumarrill of all things to handle blaziken, despite it not actually doing so under the weather he usually accompanied.
lol @ LucaroarkZ
I think Chandelure has gotten even worse now that Excadrill has been unbanned. Excadrill basically is checked by Gliscor, Skarmory, Bronzong, Slowbro, Quagsire, Breloom Tangrowth, Azumarill, Conkeldurr and Hippowdon. These Pokemon are all Chandelure weak, and the thing is, Shed Shell isn't an option on these Pokemon. Gliscor and Breloom absolutely needs Toxic Orb, Skarmory needs Lefties or it's getting worn down soooo quickly, Bronzong has no reliable recovery, and Slowbro, Quagsire, Tangrowth, and Hippowdon are all hazard weak. Azumarill and Conkeldurr aren't even good switch-ins to Excadrill, lol.
And we all know that if Excadrill gets to +2 and you have no checks then... gg.
I think Chandelure has gotten even worse now that Excadrill has been unbanned. Excadrill basically is checked by Gliscor, Skarmory, Bronzong, Slowbro, Quagsire, Breloom Tangrowth, Azumarill, Conkeldurr and Hippowdon. These Pokemon are all Chandelure weak, and the thing is, Shed Shell isn't an option on these Pokemon. Gliscor and Breloom absolutely needs Toxic Orb, Skarmory needs Lefties or it's getting worn down soooo quickly, Bronzong has no reliable recovery, and Slowbro, Quagsire, Tangrowth, and Hippowdon are all hazard weak. Azumarill and Conkeldurr aren't even good switch-ins to Excadrill, lol.
And we all know that if Excadrill gets to +2 and you have no checks then... gg.
I DO play DW OU, and I agree with FrostFire. He hit the nail right on the head.
Uhmm, we're talking about DW OU, where Breloom will most certainly have Technician as its ability, not Poison Heal. So, lol @ you, sir.
I really don't think you understand how Chandelure works. It functions not as something that can kill 5 opposing pokes per match. It functions by removing the pokes that prevent you from executing your strategy. Lets go back to the Terrakion example. Terrakion's biggest problems are Slowbro, Tangrowth, Mew, Gliscor and Golurk. As Alexwolf brought up, the 6 pokes that you place on your team are meant to cover as many threats as possible, any competent battler would have at most two of those on their team, 90% of the time, either one or none of those would be present. Chandelure's only role is to remove them from the game, the Chandelure user doesn't care if Chandelure gets pursuited after they kill off the Terrakion counter, because they can now proceed with a Terrakion sweep. So what if you have Weavile to take out Chandy, you're going to lose the match anyways because your answer to Terrakion is now gone.
Chandelure is broken not because it is an overwhelming presence itself. Its broken because it makes it so much easier for teams to execute their strategy. In fact, it doesn't even need to successfully perform its role, because the mere threat of Chandelure is enough to help you win games. Going back to the Terrakion example, many teams employ Scizor to deal with Terrakion. However, if you know the opponent has a Chandelure in the wings, you're not going to risk being stuck in Bullet Punch as Chandelure switches in and picks you off. Instead you'll be forced to U-Turn every time. Eventually Chandelure will go down and you can finally Bullet Punch Terrakion, but by then, Terrakion has already taken out 3 pokes on your team. Mission: Accomplished.
Choice sets? Sure. The SubCM set can tear through more than just one Pokemon, especially since it can come in and set up on Pokemon like Blissey and Chansey.
You're using an example of getting rid of Scizor so your Terrakion can sweep, whereas I'm using an example of come in on Blissey, get up to +6 in her face, and tear holes in your opponent's team.
Nobody is arguing that the SubCM set is not broken. We're just saying that if you have to use a pokemon to counter Chandelure that does jack shit against everything else. Chandelure is broken. So what if Weavile can take out Chandelure, what else can it do? Salamence, Landorus, Gengar to an extent. It relies on revenge killing to take out all of them, and doesn't have the power to take out pokemon such as Dragonite. If a pokemon is limited to what it does outside of the tailored role, its not a very good choice for a team. In fact, Weavile doesn't even check SubCM Chandy. Fire Blast will destroy Weavile as Weavile wastes a turn breaking the Sub.
some people still prefer the slightly more defensive nature of Poison Heal + Toxic Orb in DW OU...
Chandelure works like Magnezone, except he isn't complete BS after doing what he has to do. You know how 4Drag2Mag works? Magnezone/Magneton kills the steels, the dragons rape. Now imagine that Magnezone can now trap everything in the game, has STAB Flamethrower, better speed and SpA, and isn't limited to just Skarm-killing.
Most of the arguments in this thread are on Scarf Chandelure, but here you're speaking about SubCM. So guess what. Aside from Bliss/Chansey, Chandy doesn't have much stuff to set up upon anymore(maybe Ferrothorn). Hell, if the opponent doesn't even carry one of these three (mind you, I'm not joking, Blissey, Chansey and Ferrothorn are like non-existent in DW OU), then SubCM is going to have a hard time setting up, you can probably only set up on stuff like Draco Meteor.
The problem is not about countering Chandy, its about what Chandy does. By the time you own him, you are dead. Weavile can't come in on Scarf Chandelure if he is in Flamethrower/HP Fighting. Chandelure basically destroys whatever is the concept of a counter, hence IMO ban.