actually weavile is quite nice.
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Chandelure and DW tier
- Thread starter Matthew
- Start date
Chandelure is this tier's Excadrill. Sure there are counters to it, but like Excadrill, it completely shapes the entire metagame. Excadrill basically destroyed speed tiers in OU. In DW, Chandelure eliminates the viability of most choiced Pokemon. When coming to a decision on a ban, it's not decided on whether or not a Pokemon is broken, its how they effect the metagame. Chandelure adds a negative effect on the metagame because it basically eliminates most Pokemon from the tier that are weak to Fire and Ghost/ Can't touch a Ghost Pokemon. People would say that Excadrill was an underwhelming threat, but similar to Chandelure, it's basically easy mode for DW OU.
Of course, there's also the other effect. if you ban Chandelure, Pokemon that were previously mainly checked by Chandelure (like Techniloom and Serperior) will absolutely DOMINATE the metagame. Not too much wants to take a +2 technician boosted Mach Punch, and anything that does mostly doesn't want to take a +2 Seed Bomb. Things like Gengar will probably spike, but those things will most likely have trouble with Serperior, who outspeeds most Pokemon not weak to Breloom and can easily get +2 in their face. The bad thing is that they hit on opposite ends of the spectrum, so there really isn't going to be too much that can stop these kind of Pokemon.
All-in-all, is Chandelure broken? Probably. Is it broken compared to most of DW? probably not.
Also, if you really want to stop Chandelure, run Shadow Ball Bliss.
Of course, there's also the other effect. if you ban Chandelure, Pokemon that were previously mainly checked by Chandelure (like Techniloom and Serperior) will absolutely DOMINATE the metagame. Not too much wants to take a +2 technician boosted Mach Punch, and anything that does mostly doesn't want to take a +2 Seed Bomb. Things like Gengar will probably spike, but those things will most likely have trouble with Serperior, who outspeeds most Pokemon not weak to Breloom and can easily get +2 in their face. The bad thing is that they hit on opposite ends of the spectrum, so there really isn't going to be too much that can stop these kind of Pokemon.
All-in-all, is Chandelure broken? Probably. Is it broken compared to most of DW? probably not.
Also, if you really want to stop Chandelure, run Shadow Ball Bliss.
Weavile isn't in OU and i said OU pursuiters.
Who gives a damn if it's in OU or not? If it works, it works and that's that.
Insta Chandy stop
Zoroark disguised as Chansey.
SD on the switch in.
Pursuit.
Too bad Zoroark is stupidly weak...
Zoroark disguised as Chansey.
SD on the switch in.
Pursuit.
Too bad Zoroark is stupidly weak...
I'm focusing on the bolded statement. Your example was SD Zoroark, which actually DOES suck. However, Nasty Plot Zoroark is actually good. You just have to send it out at the right time. That right time is when your opponent's priority abusers or anything faster than Zoroark are gone.
Also, my question is, why the FUCK would anyone disguise Zoroark as Chansey, out of all things? Infernape/Mew would be much better. Also, Zoroark has a base 120 SpA which is actually really good. Do some Pokemon have higher? Yes. Does Life Orb exist? Yes. Have you even used Zoroark, or at least been serious about using it?
Also, one thing: Zoroark is faster than non-Scarf Chandelure, so why not just go for the Dark Pulse right away?
Why are you even using Pursuit on Zoroark at all? Zoroark is a terrible pursuiter.
It matters 'cause i asked for it.
I asked for OU pursuiters.
Also when you try to show counters to a poke that is considered broken you bring up relevant counters!
Those counters must be viable in the enviroment in which you want to play them.
So for example back then in DPPt,when Salamence got banned,noone gave a fuck if Cresselia or Porygon2 could counter it 'cause they were struggling to do anything else apart from this.
So you cannot bring as a viable Pursuiter Weavile which just plainly sucks in OU.
Finally even if you counted Weavile in how the fuck is Weavile going to Pursuit trap Chandy when Scarf Chandy can just outspeed him even with a modest nature and go for the kill if locked on a Fire or Fighting move?
So to trap Chandy with Weavile not only you have accept the wasted teamslot,not only u have to let it kill one of your pokes , but you also have to make sure that it is not locked into a fire or a fighting move.
Yes sounds good!
Man you have to use Pursuit to kill her 'cause how many Chanseys have you seen using SD on a free turn?Or Nasty Plot?
So when it switches out,having seen through your disguise you ko with Pursuit!
Try reading into the statement. THis thread is about Chandelure in the DW World tier. Was it not even the tiniest bit obvious that it was being used to lure and trap Chandelure? Think before you post please.
I've used a Chandelure with Acid Armor and Calm Mind in DW Ubers. I trapped a Choice Specs Mewtwo that was locked into Aura Sphere. It was easy to get to +6 in Sp. Atk, Sp. Def, and Def. After that, I ALMOST KO'd my opponents entire team (5 Pokemon including Mewtwo) with nothing but FLAMETHROWER & SHADOW BALL, except I got a crit from Scarf Palkia's Spacial Rend. You don't even need Baton Pass. This thing is fricking ridiculous.
I've found the best way to actually kill it is to revenge it... which is hard if its running Scarf. Still, most sweepers should be faster than it. All Chandelure that I've faced have probably run 252/252/6 in Sp. Atk, Spd, and HP (in order), or something like that. I find it easy to kill them with my own Chandelure as I run Timid instead of a more common (at least I've found this) Modest (again, most likely, as I've outrun them. They could also be running a Hidden Power that requires lowered Spd IVs.). Chandelure are also rather slow, with a base Spd of only 80, so the highest Spd possible (with +nature, 252+ EVs, 31 IV) is 284, something that even Buizel can outspeed. It can also hit it with a super-effective priority STAB Aqua Jet in rain w/ Life Orb, which will do anywhere from 95.1 to 113% to a max HP/Def Timid Chandelure. That's coming off of only 65 attack. But, nobody would be stupid enough to put a Buizel in their team when there's Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill running around everywhere. Or is that in UU?
All in all, Chandelure is very frail, and rather slow. Over 200 Pokemon outspeed it, many that are used in even LC. In terms of its defense, over 200 Pokemon have a greater Base Stat, and with Special Defence, it ties with quite a few, including the likes of Beedrill. I don't think it should be banned, because it's still a pretty good asset to teams, and if you can hit it before it sets up on you, or if you can predict it switching in and switch out, then it's screwed.
Again, this is from a DW Ubers point of view, so it may not be valid in DW OU. Still, it does provide a good point, and shows that while Chandelure is powerful, it is surprisingly frail, weak to Ground, Water, Ghost, Dark, and Rock, and having a Stealth Rock weakness doesn't help it. Also, it's hit by Spikes and Toxic Spikes, so Entry Hazards are hard for it, especially if its Choiced, as it might be switching out often (does anyone else find it odd that the levitating ghost chandelier can't fly out of the way of the spikes, etc.?).
You can lure in Chandelure with things that aren't Chansey.
Yes, but Chansey is universally known as a free set up for SubCM Chandelure, as Chasney cant do anything to it. No risk for excellent reward.
if that's what you really meant then fine. however it doesn't change the fact that weavile is a good pursuiter
EVERYTHING has a counter. SubSD chomp is countered by 252/252 hp and def cloyster with skill link and icicile spear; doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned. The only way it can be reliably revenged is through pursuit btw.
Predict Chandelure switch.
Go for LO-boosted Dark Pulse.
Win.
Yes, Pursuit is the easiest way to do it, but it's not the only way to do it.
As someone who hasn't even touched a DW OU team, I think I can barely speak.
However, I see that it's practically impossible to counter it without using a Shed Shell along with a Chandy of your own. And when you don't use it, then yeah.
If it's a Sub CM, gg, cause it's gonna look for set up fodder and when it does, the opposing team is screwed.
Being only weak to two priority moves in the game (even though one is unreliable) helps too.
If Scarf, it gets in, kills at it's leisure and gets out, rinse and repeat.
So from my point of view, it's pretty hard to stop unless you have dedicated checks, which usually means losing out on checking the rest of the game.
Quite pressuring if you ask me.
However, I see that it's practically impossible to counter it without using a Shed Shell along with a Chandy of your own. And when you don't use it, then yeah.
If it's a Sub CM, gg, cause it's gonna look for set up fodder and when it does, the opposing team is screwed.
Being only weak to two priority moves in the game (even though one is unreliable) helps too.
If Scarf, it gets in, kills at it's leisure and gets out, rinse and repeat.
So from my point of view, it's pretty hard to stop unless you have dedicated checks, which usually means losing out on checking the rest of the game.
Quite pressuring if you ask me.
Yeah, I'm another that hasn't played DW, but I find it difficult to believe that Chandy won't be broken with Shadow Tag.
Other trapping pokemon have nothing on Chandelure. Magnezone can only trap steels, and of the steels it can trap, it can't necessarily even kill them all depending on the moveset (i.e., Scizor can carry both Superpower and Brick Break, which can screw over Maggy if it doesn't have HP fire). Really, Magnezone is almost exclusively used to beat Skarmory and Ferrothorn and I can't think of much else that is noteworthy that it can beat (Scarf with HP fire might beat Lucario, but even then there's Vacuum Wave to be concerned about).
On to Dugtrio, and while it can trap a lot more than Magnezone can, it's pathetic base 80 attack means that it can really only trap and kill things that are specifically susceptible to ground type moves. At the moment, I'm thinking Tentacruel, Ninetales, Tyranitar, Heatran, maybe Darmanitan (though only if it's not scarfed, which is common) and actually, it's not a bad list, but they're not guaranteed kills either. Ttar lives CB earthquake (252atk/ 252spe Jolly), doing between 326-386 damage, and Tales and Heatran could be scarfed - and with Dug's paper defenses, it really can't afford to take a hit. Like, at all.
the only other trapper available to us is wobbuffet, which has the same ability as Chandy which allows it to trap everything, not just steels or with the exclusion of flying pokes/ levitators. Like Chandy, Wobbuffet too can beat pretty much anything; but it's a one-time usage. Wobbuffet can only sponge one hit to counter/ mirror coat back, and by then it's usually too weak to do much else. Admittedly it can be paired with Wish to make this better, and Wobbuffet can also encore/ tickle stuff. However, the main thing holding Wobbs back is that it's movepool + stats allow it to do only so much. Wobbs can't set up and sweep. It can't directly threaten (i.e., you could elect to simply use a non-damaging move, and just get encore'd, though you do give your opponent switching advantage).
None of the above pokemon can do what Chandelure can do. Say Chandy is running scarf: Unlike Magnezone, Chandy traps everything in the game, not just a few pokes; unlike Dug, Chandy can hit brutally hard; Unlike wobbs, it can kill stuff, without killing itself in the process. Then, take Sub CM: Actually, none of the other trappers in the game can set up at all, apart from Sub-charge beam Magnezone, and you can't really set up on much with that (i.e., skarm isn't going to be taking Charge Beams in order for you to boost, obviously).
Basically, the point of all that was to show that ST Chandelure is like no other trapper, and you just can't compare it to them. It's ability to revenge stuff with scarf is far more fearsome than Dugtrio, it's ability to set-up infinitely more terrifying than Magnezone, and, while I can't speak from experience, this thing could assuredly net more kills per battle than Wobbs.
But I'm not done. You see, there's this whole issue of 'countering' Chandelure. Now, take an obvious example of one pokemon countering another, like Conkeldurr counters Blissey. The only things bliss can do to conk are S-toss (which can be recovered with Drain Punch) and toxic/ t-wave, which activate Guts. In return, conk can set-up and sweep. Or just go for the OHKO with Drain Punch. It's a hard counter, because you can switch in with little fear, and instantly threaten the OHKO.
With Chandelure, a part of the equation is missing: You can't switch. See, with the Bliss example, even if conk comes in, Bliss will just switch (and not pointlessly die). With Chandelure, anything that chandelure beats, if it's in battle, dies. And don't think this is just reserved for pokemon that are weak to fire or ghost; with 145 base Sp. Atk, plenty of pokemon who are neutral to both are going to die to it. Still, if you look at stuff that is specially susceptible to it, out of the top 20 pokes, ScarfLure wins against Scizor, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Latios, Skarmory, Reuniclus, Deoxys-S, Celebi and Forretress. That's 9 pokes, nearly half of the most used pokemon in OU.
BTW, I'm assuming the set looks something like:
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
Modest - 4HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe.
-Fire Blast
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power [Fighting]
-Energy Ball
Anyway, that doesn't count stuff like Gliscor, which can nearly be OHKO'd by Fire Blast (or actually can depending on HP investment - 0 Sp. Def/ neutral nature does 297-349 damage, with Gliscor's max HP being 354). Furthermore, 2HKOs will become OHKOs after a bit of residual damage. Rotom-W with no Sp. Def investment takes 208-246 damage, and Rotom-W's HP can strike anywhere between 241-304 depending on if your defensive or choiced. Either can be OHKO'd after a bit of residual damage.
Argh, I have too much to say. I need to stop.
However, to briefly run over my main points:
1. Chandelure can't be compared to other trapping 'mons
2. Chandelure can completely screw over 9 pokemon of the top 20 - nearly HALF of the top of OU.
3. The pokemon that Chandelure can't initially screw over at full health (like rotom-w and Ttar), it's fully capable of dealing with after residual damage.
4. The result of all this is that Chandelure is ridiculously deadly, completely changes the face of the metagame, and makes teambuilding completely centred around Chandelure (as having even one poke on your team weak to chandy becomes set-up bait for Sub CM lure, and is an instant liability).
BTW, this is a bit tl;dr. Still, I've come to the end of this post, and I'll be damned if I don't post it now, whether it makes sense or not :p
Other trapping pokemon have nothing on Chandelure. Magnezone can only trap steels, and of the steels it can trap, it can't necessarily even kill them all depending on the moveset (i.e., Scizor can carry both Superpower and Brick Break, which can screw over Maggy if it doesn't have HP fire). Really, Magnezone is almost exclusively used to beat Skarmory and Ferrothorn and I can't think of much else that is noteworthy that it can beat (Scarf with HP fire might beat Lucario, but even then there's Vacuum Wave to be concerned about).
On to Dugtrio, and while it can trap a lot more than Magnezone can, it's pathetic base 80 attack means that it can really only trap and kill things that are specifically susceptible to ground type moves. At the moment, I'm thinking Tentacruel, Ninetales, Tyranitar, Heatran, maybe Darmanitan (though only if it's not scarfed, which is common) and actually, it's not a bad list, but they're not guaranteed kills either. Ttar lives CB earthquake (252atk/ 252spe Jolly), doing between 326-386 damage, and Tales and Heatran could be scarfed - and with Dug's paper defenses, it really can't afford to take a hit. Like, at all.
the only other trapper available to us is wobbuffet, which has the same ability as Chandy which allows it to trap everything, not just steels or with the exclusion of flying pokes/ levitators. Like Chandy, Wobbuffet too can beat pretty much anything; but it's a one-time usage. Wobbuffet can only sponge one hit to counter/ mirror coat back, and by then it's usually too weak to do much else. Admittedly it can be paired with Wish to make this better, and Wobbuffet can also encore/ tickle stuff. However, the main thing holding Wobbs back is that it's movepool + stats allow it to do only so much. Wobbs can't set up and sweep. It can't directly threaten (i.e., you could elect to simply use a non-damaging move, and just get encore'd, though you do give your opponent switching advantage).
None of the above pokemon can do what Chandelure can do. Say Chandy is running scarf: Unlike Magnezone, Chandy traps everything in the game, not just a few pokes; unlike Dug, Chandy can hit brutally hard; Unlike wobbs, it can kill stuff, without killing itself in the process. Then, take Sub CM: Actually, none of the other trappers in the game can set up at all, apart from Sub-charge beam Magnezone, and you can't really set up on much with that (i.e., skarm isn't going to be taking Charge Beams in order for you to boost, obviously).
Basically, the point of all that was to show that ST Chandelure is like no other trapper, and you just can't compare it to them. It's ability to revenge stuff with scarf is far more fearsome than Dugtrio, it's ability to set-up infinitely more terrifying than Magnezone, and, while I can't speak from experience, this thing could assuredly net more kills per battle than Wobbs.
But I'm not done. You see, there's this whole issue of 'countering' Chandelure. Now, take an obvious example of one pokemon countering another, like Conkeldurr counters Blissey. The only things bliss can do to conk are S-toss (which can be recovered with Drain Punch) and toxic/ t-wave, which activate Guts. In return, conk can set-up and sweep. Or just go for the OHKO with Drain Punch. It's a hard counter, because you can switch in with little fear, and instantly threaten the OHKO.
With Chandelure, a part of the equation is missing: You can't switch. See, with the Bliss example, even if conk comes in, Bliss will just switch (and not pointlessly die). With Chandelure, anything that chandelure beats, if it's in battle, dies. And don't think this is just reserved for pokemon that are weak to fire or ghost; with 145 base Sp. Atk, plenty of pokemon who are neutral to both are going to die to it. Still, if you look at stuff that is specially susceptible to it, out of the top 20 pokes, ScarfLure wins against Scizor, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Latios, Skarmory, Reuniclus, Deoxys-S, Celebi and Forretress. That's 9 pokes, nearly half of the most used pokemon in OU.
BTW, I'm assuming the set looks something like:
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
Modest - 4HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe.
-Fire Blast
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power [Fighting]
-Energy Ball
Anyway, that doesn't count stuff like Gliscor, which can nearly be OHKO'd by Fire Blast (or actually can depending on HP investment - 0 Sp. Def/ neutral nature does 297-349 damage, with Gliscor's max HP being 354). Furthermore, 2HKOs will become OHKOs after a bit of residual damage. Rotom-W with no Sp. Def investment takes 208-246 damage, and Rotom-W's HP can strike anywhere between 241-304 depending on if your defensive or choiced. Either can be OHKO'd after a bit of residual damage.
Argh, I have too much to say. I need to stop.
However, to briefly run over my main points:
1. Chandelure can't be compared to other trapping 'mons
2. Chandelure can completely screw over 9 pokemon of the top 20 - nearly HALF of the top of OU.
3. The pokemon that Chandelure can't initially screw over at full health (like rotom-w and Ttar), it's fully capable of dealing with after residual damage.
4. The result of all this is that Chandelure is ridiculously deadly, completely changes the face of the metagame, and makes teambuilding completely centred around Chandelure (as having even one poke on your team weak to chandy becomes set-up bait for Sub CM lure, and is an instant liability).
BTW, this is a bit tl;dr. Still, I've come to the end of this post, and I'll be damned if I don't post it now, whether it makes sense or not :p
I use what's quintessentially the same set, just Timid over Modest, Flamethrower over Fire Blast and HP Ice over HP Fighting. The team that I'm using is something of 5drag1chan (someone did mention that earlier in the thread and I thought I'd try it out), just edited to include my all-time fav for DW, Genesect.
Chandy really does a damn good job at smacking open holes for your other guys to sweep. See a Skarmory going to stop your Haxorus sweep? Fuck it, send in Chandelure and laugh. I think if Chandelure didn't have a monster 145 SpA, it'd have been way less controversial. Abilities and stats do go hand in hand: if Rampardos had Speed Boost instead of Mold Breaker, I'm dead sure that thing would've been the first thing to get banned.
Although, I think I may have used it incorrectly later on, because when I swapped out some guys for others (a mence, latios and a hydreigon for Forry, Serperior and CB Scyther(yes, you read that right, I just happened to be trying it out as a check to non-scarf Chandy)) it didn't work as well...
Chandy really does a damn good job at smacking open holes for your other guys to sweep. See a Skarmory going to stop your Haxorus sweep? Fuck it, send in Chandelure and laugh. I think if Chandelure didn't have a monster 145 SpA, it'd have been way less controversial. Abilities and stats do go hand in hand: if Rampardos had Speed Boost instead of Mold Breaker, I'm dead sure that thing would've been the first thing to get banned.
Although, I think I may have used it incorrectly later on, because when I swapped out some guys for others (a mence, latios and a hydreigon for Forry, Serperior and CB Scyther(yes, you read that right, I just happened to be trying it out as a check to non-scarf Chandy)) it didn't work as well...
It's pretty annoying to have to run shed shell on so many things unless you want them killed.
I strongly dislike team preview in the main OU metagame, but I think in this particular scenario it would be a lot more helpful for ST Chandelures case. Without team preview you just have to assume the other player has a Chandy and go for a hardcore double switch, which can cause you to lose the game if you mispredict (or if they simply don't have a Chandy).
There is a large number of Pokemon that Chandelure can OHKO and that can't OHKO her first. When you have one of these Pokemon out now, one of your possible options at all times has to be "Should I double switch and predict the Chandelure".
If that isn't centralizing I don't know what is.
By herself she isn't that hard to handle, but the culmination of the way the DW tier functions and the influence she has over prediction and item selection is a bit much in my opinion.
I strongly dislike team preview in the main OU metagame, but I think in this particular scenario it would be a lot more helpful for ST Chandelures case. Without team preview you just have to assume the other player has a Chandy and go for a hardcore double switch, which can cause you to lose the game if you mispredict (or if they simply don't have a Chandy).
There is a large number of Pokemon that Chandelure can OHKO and that can't OHKO her first. When you have one of these Pokemon out now, one of your possible options at all times has to be "Should I double switch and predict the Chandelure".
If that isn't centralizing I don't know what is.
By herself she isn't that hard to handle, but the culmination of the way the DW tier functions and the influence she has over prediction and item selection is a bit much in my opinion.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
To be completely fair, there are pokemon such as Snorlax who could become viable in OU just thanks to chandelure. I mean, gastrodon became top 30 OU just because of two pokemon (Rotom-W and Thundurus).
On the other hand, I don't want to rely on pursuit to beat something that will probably just sub up on my fodder. The fact that I used to run shed shell slwbro reminds me of just how dark those days were.
Gastrodon checks Rotom-W,Thundurus,Politoed,Starmie and even Latios like a boss.
And almost all of those mons are pretty often seen in drizzle teams.
Becoming viable is another thing than being OU material.
Many UU or even NU pokes are viable in OU,but this doesn't mean we should consider them in our threat list.
It is unreasonable to state low UU pokemons,or even pokes that have low usage in OU,as checks or counters to OU pokes that are going through suspect testing.
For example when Thundurus was banned noone gave a shit if Lanturn checked him,'cause he just wasn't good enough in OU to have high usage.
Same goes for Weavile imo,which btw is number 78 in OU usage.
I think what a few of you are forgetting is that even if you Pursuit it...it did its job.
I'll take Chess as an example.
To checkmate you, I need to use my Rook(Terrakion), but your Queen(Slowbro) is in the way of that. Instead of making complex moves and predictions, I just trap your Queen in a corner with my Pawn(Chandelure).
I have it set up in a way where your Queen is guaranteed to be captured and then just to equalize, you take my Pawn, but then I take your Queen.
Sure, you got rid of the Pawn, but I got your Queen and now there's nothing you can do to stop my Rook from checkmating your King.
It DOES NOT matter if you kill my Chandelure as long as it did it's job.
We're 5 - 5, but you're in a horrible position, while I would be in a winning position.
I'll take Chess as an example.
To checkmate you, I need to use my Rook(Terrakion), but your Queen(Slowbro) is in the way of that. Instead of making complex moves and predictions, I just trap your Queen in a corner with my Pawn(Chandelure).
I have it set up in a way where your Queen is guaranteed to be captured and then just to equalize, you take my Pawn, but then I take your Queen.
Sure, you got rid of the Pawn, but I got your Queen and now there's nothing you can do to stop my Rook from checkmating your King.
It DOES NOT matter if you kill my Chandelure as long as it did it's job.
We're 5 - 5, but you're in a horrible position, while I would be in a winning position.
This has been mentioned several times.
It is in fact the biggest reason for it's brokeness.The support he brings to the table by eliminating key targets is just too fucking good.
No, you really aren't in a winning position when I can sweep with Terrakion(rook) now.
lol thats what he just said; HE is the one sweeping with his terrakion/rook now and while his pawn (chandy) is gone, your only thing to stop slowbro(queen) has been killed.