Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Metagame Discussion

[Pocket]

Thank you Bummer for this cute manly banner B)​

With the inception of Pokebank, we will begin Doubles's very first suspect stage!

This initial stage will have NO pre-determined suspects. We will offer you, the qualified players, the opportunity to voice your opinion on the state of the current metagame at the end of this suspect stage. If you believe there is an overly centralizing or overpowering aspect in Doubles that makes the metagame worse off, you will have a chance to nominate and discuss about your suspect(s). If you believe the current metagame is balanced at its current form, you can also voice your opinion of no suspects.

Qualifications to Nominate

Only qualified users can nominate any or no suspects. Other users can still participate in the suspect discussions.

Ladder Requirement - screenshot an alt that meets one of the two requirements

• minimum of 50 games with 3:1 win/loss ratio
• minimum of 70 games with 2:1 win/loss ratio

Exemption - earning a minimum of 15 leaderboard points during the month(s) the suspect stage is running (December + January) will exempt you from the ladder reqs

The council will consider all the points brought up in suspect discussions to approve or veto suspect nominations. Simple majority support from the council is enough to approve the suspect for voting. Nominating a suspect or for no suspect will be worth half a vote. So even if no nominations pass through, you will still receive credit for your participation.

Once the council approves a suspect to be voted, they will then determine the eligible voters.

Qualifications to Vote

1. Attain ladder reqs outlined above (ignore this if you already met this requirement to qualify for the nomination stage)
2. Contribute productively to the metagame and suspect discussions
3. Earn a minimum of 5 points in the leaderboard

• • Earning 25+ leaderboard points during the month(s) the suspect stage is running (December + January) will exempt you from the ladder reqs

The ladder requirements are loose, because we value community involvement and contributions over ladder performance. It takes very little contribution to earn 5 points, though x_x

It will take a supermajority support to change the status quo. If a suspect is truly unhealthy (or healthy if it's dropping) for the metagame, there should be an overwhelming support for its banishment (or entry). A suspect that received simple majority support may be revisited in the future.

Important Dates:

Dec. 27th - Suspect Stage 1 commences
Jan. 10th-17th - Alt ID / Suspect Discussion thread goes up - only those who met ladder reqs can nominate, but anyone can discuss on the nominated suspects
Jan. 20th - Council-approved suspects will be voted by eligible voters

Meet the Council: - the following members are in the council

1. Arcticblast
2. Audiosurfer (tentative)
3. Joim
4. Laga
5. lucariojr
6. Mizuhime
7. Nollan
8. Pocket
9. Pwnemon

The council is composed of members who have demonstrated their competence and active commitment to Doubles. It's worth noting that we council members are subjected to the same requirements as everybody else. The council will go under revision before every suspect stage, so current active and competent contributors of Doubles may have the potential to join this body.

Rules of this Thread:

Since I will be putting up an individual thread for suspect discussions, refrain from speaking about suspects itt. Instead post about the current metagame. What Pokemon, core, or strategy is working for you? Any discoveries or revelations? Give us update on any test teams! Share a Pokemon set / cores / replays or offer critique to the ones posted. Metagame Trends? Playstyles? Overrated / Underrated Pokemon?

These posts about the metagame, as well as the suspect discussion, will be scrutinized to determine voter eligibility, so definitely post.

Enjoy Doubles, guys!




THERE IS NO LONGER A CURRENTLY ACTIVE SUSPECT TEST, BUT THIS THREAD WILL REMAIN OPEN FOR GENERAL METAGAME DISCUSSION UNTIL THE NEXT TEST.

 

[Pocket]

Hall of Fame Post (8)

I (or other mods) will record all the good posts that are worth points for Discussion Sparker.

HoF

youngjake93 - 3 points

• Beat Fire with Fire & Dragonite
• Significance of Switches
• Predominant threats are bulky

-Tsunami- - 2 points

• Deoxys-A & CB Genesect, Heatran, and Kangaskhan
• Sash Deoxys-A, Explosion Genesect, Ancient Power Heatran, switching

AuraRayquaza - 2 points

• Kangaskhan (ignore talk on sleep)
• Stealth Rock

Arcticblast - 1 point

• Substitute

BlankZero - 1 point

• Good Answers to Heatran

finally - 1 point

• Kangaskhan & SR Deoxys-A core

Joim - 1 point

• Assault Vest Scrafty, Substitute, and Heatran

Robert Alfons - 1 point

• Good Answers to Trick Room (ignore talk on sleep)

 

[Pocket]

Since the first post is always intimidating, I'll start it off.

The star of the metagame is Heatran. The bulk and resistances that allows it to be successful in singles comes handy in Doubles, too. It has many opportunities to switch in and annoy the living hell out of you with its Sub + Protect set. The weather nerf made rain a lot less common, which Heatran definitely appreciates. It is also one of the handful of mons that stops Brave Bird-spammng Talonflame in its tracks. You usually want to avoid having more than 2 Pokemon walled or weak to Heatran (Scizor, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Genesect, Cresselia, Talonflame, Charizard Y without Focus Blast / HP Ground, Mawile, Togekiss, Trevenant, Amonguss, and even Latios), since Heatran can dick around for awhile if it gets a Substitute up.

It's also really easy to support Heatran, since its weakness to Fighting-, Ground-, and Water-types are relatively well prepared in Doubles since BW2. Hitmontop is a common partner, since it can Fake Out these Pokemon to let Heatran set up a quick substitute. Wide Guard also completely negates the omnipresent Earthquake. Cresselia is another classic partner. First turn, Heatran uses Protect as Cresselia uses Icy Wind to slow down Earthquake users. The following turn, Cresselia can then Skill Swap Levitate to Heatran, and now the EQ user cannot touch Heatran. Cresselia can also nerf Water-types and boost Heatran's Heat Wave with Sunny Day, as well as dishing serious damage to Fighting-types with Psyshock.

Heatran often speed creep nowadays to be faster than min speed Rotom-W, and by extension Cresselia and Togekiss. This way, Heatran can set up a Substitute on Rotom-W to bide time instead of being forced out and shield itself from Thunder Waves / Icy Winds / Air Slash flinches from the latter two. Bulkier spreads are also common, with just enough Speed to outrun Mega Lucario after an Icy Wind speed fall and sufficient bulk to keep its substitute intact from Tyranitar's Rock Slide after an Intimidate.

This is why Ground-types are so good right now. It is one of the most decisive ways to eliminate arguably the top threat of Doubles. Granted, Hitmontop's Wide Guard support also exists, but that's why you pair your Ground-type with something that can fuck up the headspinnng idiot. You can lead with a faster Fake Out user (ie Mega Kangaskhan) to make Hitmontop useless, while your Excadrill / Zygarde / Landorus threatens Heatran with Drill Run / Land's Wrath / Earth Power. In early game, Heatran would most definitely switch, but I will consider that a win. Garchomp in particular is popular at the moment, because it resists Heat Wave and Rock Slide, two commonplace spread moves. Garchomp can then proceed to wreck common threats like Heatran, Tyranitar, and Charizard with Earthquake and Rock Slide / Stone Edge.

Fire-types in general is also good in this metagame, since it is one of the few good offensive answers against Fairy-types (well except for Azumarill ;x), and they beat Steel-types that are still difficult to break. With the new Wide Guard buff (never fails, even used in succession) it's easier than ever to protect Fire-types from QuakeSlides. This is partially why Heatran is based, b/c 1) Fire-type, 2) Flash Fire, and 3) ez buffed Wide Guard support.

 

[BlankZero]

I'm gonna have to agree that Heatran is probably the most Anti-Meta Pokemon so far this Generation. So many teams have begun building heavily offensive sets and Subtran just shuts them down over and over again. It does have a few checks though, in Scarf Lando-T (or just fast Lando), Hitmontop/Scrafty (Assault Beast Scrafty completely tanks the Heat Waves and can ruin Tran's Lefties with Knock Off (not resisted anymore by Steel) and SE hit it with Drain Punch, effectively walling it or forcing it out), MegaGarchomp, and any other Fast Ground types.

 

[Mizuhime]

Though Heatran is good, I wouldn't say that it's too centralizing, of course it's a threat, but proper team building takes care of it. Something that I personally think is way better then it should be is Trick Room. Not only did Trick Room get a few new setters, Trev, Gourgiest?(idk if I spelled that correctly), and Aromatisse. The first 2 have Grass-typing, so now have immunity to powder moves, while the other has an ability that makes it immune to Taunt. Pretty much guaranteeing that Trick Room will be set up. Now I know I just said that two of these Pokemon have an immunity to powder moves (includes spore), but the removal of sleep clause would help balance out the threat that is Trick Room, as it would allow for more then a single abuser to be put to sleep.

 

[termi]

Though Heatran is good, I wouldn't say that it's too centralizing, of course it's a threat, but proper team building takes care of it. Something that I personally think is way better then it should be is Trick Room. Not only did Trick Room get a few new setters, Trev, Gourgiest?(idk if I spelled that correctly), and Aromatisse. The first 2 have Grass-typing, so now have immunity to powder moves, while the other has an ability that makes it immune to Taunt. Pretty much guaranteeing that Trick Room will be set up. Now I know I just said that two of these Pokemon have an immunity to powder moves (includes spore), but the removal of sleep clause would help balance out the threat that is Trick Room, as it would allow for more then a single abuser to be put to sleep.

I'm not really sure that removing sleep clause would really help the meta, as it would introduce a new problem to the meta. I mean, what's stopping things like Amoonguss from switching in when the opponent can't hurt him too much, put something to sleep with Spore, switch out and recover health. And don't get me started on Darkrai. Bottom line is that removing sleep clause might help in the combat against one problem, but in the process you add another.

In my opinion, Trick Room isn't some sort of overpowered threat that requires something as game-changing as the removal of a clause, it's just something that you should prepare for. Taunt still nails most TR setters, and it's not like you can't OHKO Aromatisse with powerful threats like LO Scizor (also handles Reuniclus) or just put it to sleep. As long as you can play around Trick Room by simply preparing for it, I find something like removing a clause in order to combat it quite redundant.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

A poke i wanted to bring up was mega kangaskhan. It is so powerful in doubles to the point where teams can easily be swept by it with little support from its allies. Parental bond gives it a choice band boost with the freedom to switch moves. Return hits super hard on the whole meta and if it gets a power up punch it is gg. Sucker punch is also very strong priority with parental bond. Only will o wisp users can stop it and they can be beaten easily by heatran or RP/FM users. What are your thoughts on mega kanga?

 

[Joim]

Dark Void wouldn't be unbanned if Sleep Clause were to be removed simply because it's banned right now both for automatically breaking Sleep Clause and because it's goddamn overpowered lol. Sorry for this short post, I will ellaborate more later, I simply wanted to state this about Dark Void.

 

[Kingler]

I'm not sure about unbanning sleep clause, it's an important clause that helps spore spam and shit. I mean, sleep is nerfed, but dubs turns are so short it's irrelevant. Heatran is great in this metagame, but does not deserve a ban whatsoever. It can be dealt with teambuilding and smart plays just like any other poke; while it's excellent, it doesn't break the meta, make it competitive, and it isn't overcentralizing.
Subtran is an excellent set, but common Pokemon such as ttar, rotom-w, and even Mega Kangaskhan to an extent deal with it. Dealing with follow me+tran is annoying, but honestly, it's that way for follow me+any other mon. Plus, if you use follow me that turn, heatran can still be hurt by spread moves.
i would talk about appropriate suspects but will abide by what the OP said

 

[Arcticblast]

Breaking away from the Sleep discussion to build on what Kingler said - Substitute is a very powerful move right now. It allows it's users to live practically forever with a bit of Follow me support. I would argue that all teams should have a Pokemon that can deal with a Substitute user. I don't mean an explicit counter like Scarf Cloyster (who is good regardless) but who can threaten common Sub users easily and prevent them from Subbing, or hit them behind a Substitute. Specs Exploud is a decent answer on Trick Room teams, bypassing Substitute with Scrappy Boomburst, and Mega Gardevoir is in a similar boat with Pixilated Hyper Voice. Mamoswine also hits the three most common users of the move in Heatran, Zygarde, and Trevenant.

I personally haven't seen anything using Substitute as a set up aid akin to Singles, although I'm curious how SubSD Garchomp and SubNP Thundurus-I would perform in the metagame. They don't have the sheer bulk of the Sub users I mentioned above, but they only need a single free turn to get rolling - and it's not like they can't get a second one up eventually.

 

[termi]

I personally haven't seen anything using Substitute as a set up aid akin to Singles, although I'm curious how SubSD Garchomp and SubNP Thundurus-I would perform in the metagame. They don't have the sheer bulk of the Sub users I mentioned above, but they only need a single free turn to get rolling - and it's not like they can't get a second one up eventually.

I don't really know about this, running SubSD on Chomp means that you're not using Protect, meaning you're gonna need a lot of support in order to maintain that sub. Not really sure if it's worth it.

There are a couple of things that I am interested in, however. For example, considering Rotom-W is quite bulky and has a great defensive typing, would a SubSplit set be viable, maybe? It could run Sub/Split/WoW/Electroweb, with which it could control speed, then keep on being annoying by subbing before the opponent can do anything and going for Split when its health is running low. I guess it's a little gimmicky and requires some team support, but it sounds like a fun set to try when you're bored with the usual sets. Other than that, I'm not really sure what would be able to run sub successfully.

 

[youngjake93]

There aren't many Charizard Y checks in the meta. Heatran walls sets lacking Focus Blast/HP Ground, but Charizard Y with one of those moves is a great Heatran check.
Similarly, Ancientpower CharY beats standard CharY and Subbed/Balloon Earth Power beats other Heatran.
I feel like this dance between these two very centralizing threats checking each other/themselves doesn't give much reason not to use them.

In fact, one of the main reasons Dragonite is even viable is because it hard walls these two huge threats. But even then, non-EQ Dragonite(most) is setup bait for subtran :(

Also, I've never noticed Trick Room being even close to overpowering, and I could see Venusaur+ChariYard being broken as hell without sleep clause.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

An interesting sub user could be cresselia. With sub and calm mind, cress would easily find opportunities to set up and then set up more subs in later turns. The only problem i can see is a lack of coverage. With psyshock and ice beam, scizor beats it. And with hp fire, heatran walls it. I think that is the main problem with most set up/sub pokes - they either have a lack of coverage or lack of protect.

I also have been using stealth rock recently on my ttar over fire blast/low kick. With many new threats like talonflame and char y, as well as old threats like volcarona and thundurus, 25/50% damage on switch in can really hurt some pokes. It can stop their sweeps and make them more susceptible to kos, notably on volcarona, who cannot RP for as long now. I find it to be an unexpected move that has turned many battles in my favour.

 

[Pocket]

Good posts, guys, BUT DONT TALK ABOUT SUSPECTS / BANS. We will have that discussion in the Suspect Discussion Thread :0 Read the last part of the OP for more details.

BlankZero - I like the Assault Vest Scrafty recommendation! Definitely beats Hitmontop, who I found to be easily worn down by Heatran. Hitmontop cannot Wide Guard and Close Combat at the same time, and whenever it Close Combats Heatran's substitute, the defense fall makes Hitmontop really vulnerable to Heat Wave. Thanks for reminding me that the new buffed Knock Off breaks Heatran's Substitute now ^_^

Heatran isn't an anti-meta Pokemon. He defines the metagame :0

Arcticblast - I agree that Substitute is an underrated move. It's particularly great for avoiding Sucker Punches (with an exception of Kanga's Sucker Punch perhaps). I've tested Substitute on my LO Deoxys-A, and it's essentially an additional life for it (which means it is taking an additional life away from the opponent's team >:]). Somebody also used a Substitute Kyurem-B with LO Dragon Claw + Fusion Bolt, and I remember it doing major work. Bisharp is a well-known Sub user to pressure the opponent to attack and eat a Sucker Punch. I know Audiosurfer has major hots for Substitute Landorus(-T) ;d. I can see Substitute Gengar to be a very rude Pokemon in Doubles, since it gains perfect coverage with just Shadow Ball + Focus Blast (RIP Darkrai ;-;)

As Robert Alfons has mentioned, Sub SD Garchomp most likely wont work, since you lack Protect (kind of for the same reason why Mat Block on Greninja often fails). Sub NP Thundurus can be pulled off, though, thanks to Prankster essentially giving Substitute priority protection like Protect / Detect. It is prone to Fake Out and double-targeted attacks, so it's still risky business not running Protect on offensive mons (but Prankster definitely helps a lot)

Robert's SubSplit Rotom-W set probably wont work, though. For one, it can't touch Heatran that is behind a Substitute. Losing its major key point in being one of the few Electric-type with a powerful alternative coverage move in STAB Hydro Pump is also undesirable.

AuraRayquaza - SubCress actually sounds really nasty to deal with xd. I'd most likely go with Psyshock + HP Fire, since Cresselia should be able to break Heatran's Substitute with Psyshock after a few CMs. What is REALLY problematic for CM Cress is Tyranitar, so I would be sure to pack solid answers to that, such as Terrakion / Keldeo / Garchomp.

youngjake93 - It's ironic that Ancient Power Charizard and Air Balloon Heatran are actually decent checks to Charizard and Heatran x) Although Air Balloon can be broken, that extra attack to pop it just to Earthquake (Power) it can be game-changing.

I am also glad that you mentioned Stealth Rock, AuraRayquaza :] It is one of the surest ways to neutralize Charizard Y imo. It is almost mandatory on Rain or Hail teams to quickly win the control over the weather.

 

[termi]

Robert's SubSplit Rotom-W set probably wont work, though. For one, it can't touch Heatran that is behind a Substitute. Losing its major key point in being one of the few Electric-type with a powerful alternative coverage move in STAB Hydro Pump is also undesirable.

tbh that SubSplit part was filler, I felt my post was a little on the short side so I wanted to think of something that could use Sub and this was the first thing I came up with.

On the note of Substitute + Prankster, is Klefki any good with a Sub? With Prankster and a good defensive typing, he seems decent with it, and I see some SubKeys on the ladder every now and then, but I wonder what they accomplish aside from taking some hits better. Any opinions on this?

 

[Joim]

Assault Vest Scrafty is indeed a bulky beast. It has nice coverage, it's hard to wear down and its only problem is Fairy and Fighting weakness, which I think are easy to avoid.

I'm not sure of any Pokémon that needs to set-up with more than one move, that's why I think all Sub mons should be ready to fite with just the Substitute. While sometimes it will work, spread moves help to get rid of Subs and Kangas around too. Anyways, Substitute is a great and underrated move that should be used more often, it gives trouble often, you have to get that Sub out fast or else you will face serious problem. Not really OP, it's just a thing you must prepare for.

Whilst Heatran is very dangerous and SubTran is greatly overhyped and you kinda have to prepare for it, its double weakness to ground, weaknesses to Water and Fighting types are very detrimental and that's what has always stopped Heatran to be deemed Uber in any OU metagame it's been in. Subtran still must be wary of Earthquakes or even a double aimed Hidden Power Ground and the stray Focus Blast that can put an end to its career. It needs a good situation to force a switch or a teammate helping it set up. While it's very good, I doubt it's anything that should be tested.

Trick Room has both new tools and new counters, so I think the status quo is kept. Very good move to build a team around, not overpowered by any means and you can either lose to it or play around it.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Well, I suppose I'll share my thoughts on what I've been using and my thoughts on the metagame. Considering I just started playing Doubles today after only playing BW Doubles for a couple of weeks, my impressions of it will probably be different than many other people. I basically have just been using my BW Doubles team of Deoxys-A / CB Genesect / Heatran / Hitmontop / Scizor and changed Breloom for Mega Kanga since Mega Kanga is amazing. So basically, other than the fact that my team is annihilated by sun (all of my losses on the ladder have come against monofire...I've beaten every other team), I think it's pretty solid. Heatran is really good, and as everyone knows, t's pretty insane. Also, unlike most of the other people in this thread, I don't think Substitute is really that great...maybe it's because I'm a singles player, but I don't really have many problems with it generally. Most teams don't get a chance to set up Substitutes vs. my team, so maybe that's why. Regardless, I can usually just outplay the opponent or double attack that Pokemon to where it's not too big of an issue. It also helps that Mega Kanga can hit through Substitutes essentially. I'm personally not running Substitute on my Heatran, as I decided Ancient Power would be a better option since my team is obviously weak to Charizard Y and Talonflame. Personally, I feel that Heatran is extremely good and easily the best Pokemon in the metagame, though i really do not think it's good enough to be suspected since there's definitely ways to beat it, such as with Ground-type moves or with moves such as Wide Guard.

Anyway, my team is basically built around different cores. I always lead with Deoxys-A + Genesect...always, mostly because, as a singles player who always spams suicide leads, I am too used to having a dedicated lead to change my tactics. Deoxys-A is something that I feel is really underrated in this metagame, since it can KO a large variety of Pokemon, and it is very easy to make your opponent waste a turn by predicting their attack on it and using Detect, since it simply puts so much pressure on the opposition that they have no choice but to attack it with moves such as Fake Out. I usually either U-Turn (which OHKOs Cresselia after Download, by the way), or Explode with Genesect, which works really well with Detect. Heatran is my sun check and is obviously the best Pokemon in the metagame, while Scizor acts as my priority and is just a solid mon in general. Kangaskhan + Hitmontop are very good due to Fake Out, which allow them to form other cores within my team and support my Pokemon well. Hitmontop is still extremely good in this metagame from what I can tell, as Wide Guard support is extremely useful with the massive amount of Heat Wave spam in the metagame; there's also Feint, which can truly turn a game in one's favor. From my brief experiences, I can say that Fake Out still rules the metagame and that Heatran is truly a God.

 

[Pocket]

Thanks for playing, ShakeItUp :D What sort of Deoxys-A set do you run? I've been experimenting with the alien myself, and I find it a particularly challenging mon to support. Lots of Fake Out support certainly helps with Deoxys-A imo, since you can immobolize one mon while Deoxys-A annihilates another. I'd personally wouldn't lead with CB Genesect, because it is prone to Fake Out. I'd definitely consider replacing Scizor for something else, since it is redundant with CB Genesect. Since almost all of your team barring Heatran is walled by Aegislash (I think), you would want something that fares well against it while finding more answers to Charizard. Maybe Sheer Force LO Lando-I with Earth Power - Stone Edge - Psychic / HP Ice - Protect? Zygarde's Land Wrath or Thundurus(-T) are also nice options imo ;d

 

[-Tsunami-]

Pocket
Partly due to my laziness, I just used the BW analysis set of Psycho Boost / Detect / Shadow Ball / Superpower with a Focus Sash. I figured if it didn't work that well, I could always change it, but it's been working pretty well for me. I really think it's an underrated threat in the metagame, even though I've heard several people say it's not that good, but a Pokemon that can put up this large of an offensive presence has to be at least somewhat good. Not to mention, it has amazing coverage, and it doesn't even need Life Orb to KO most threats thanks to the raw power of Psycho Boost. Also, to your other point, I can play around CB Genesect being Fake Out weak simply because most teams are just forced to Fake Out Deoxys-A since they cannot risk it annihilating one of their Pokemon. Because of the threat that Deoxys-A is, it's easier to make Fake Out not as big of an issue, even though I have played against several teams that have used Fake on Genesect. Regardless, changing up my leads is probably a good idea, just that, as I stated before, it's hard to break away from old habits. It's also partly because Deoxys-A Detect + CB Genesect Explosion is a devastating combination if you can pull it off, which I've managed to do on several occasions simply by predicting the opponent's most likely moves. It can essentially win the game if pulled off successfully. Also, do people use Aegislash? In my 50 games, I have not played against any, so I never really noticed that I was weak to it. Regardless, since it seems to be incredibly uncommon on the ladder, I would rather not focus on that and instead focus more on the Fire weakness, since that is obviously the main problem. Zygarde seems like a nice option since it resists Fire, which could help, considering that, as I stated before, all of my losses have been to monofire. I'll replace Scizor with it if I actually play against an Aegislash xD I definitely need to fix this Fire weakness though, since Charizard Y is just ridiculous sun support in this metagame, so maybe I'll try using Dragonite, since it also beats Pokemon such as Infernape which defeat my only other sun check in Heatran. This team is also pretty weak to rain from what I've seen, so Dragonite could help with that as well. But that aside, I really like Ancient Power Heatran. It could potentially be because of my luck, since if I get the boost the game is pretty much over due to how devastating Heatran is with +1 in all stats, but it can get surprise kills on Talonflame and Charizard Y, which is what I intended it to do, but also hit Pokemon such as Dragonite as well. As I stated in my above post, I do not really find Substitute amazing like most other people seem to in this thread, so I don't mind not having it. Also, I actually learned to switch in this Doubles metagame (amazing, isn't it?), so that always helps.

 

[finally]

I am also glad that you mentioned Stealth Rock, AuraRayquaza :] It is one of the surest ways to neutralize Charizard Y imo. It is almost mandatory on Rain or Hail teams to quickly win the control over the weather.

Yeah, definitely. I've only seen like one other person on the ladder using stealth rocks. Anyways, a really good way that I've found to set up rocks is with: fake outter + deoxys-a. So far I've been using Kangaskhan as my fake-outter. What this duo accomplishes is usually severe damage with psycho boost and also stealth rocks after the -2 spatk.
The main boon of using kanga on rain teams as your fake outter is: 1)scrappy- to hit ghosts and the omnipresent TR threat for rain teams, 2) no flying weakness as opposed to many fighting type fake outters- often grass pokemon are found on rain, amoonguss, ludicolo ,(and even keldeo appreciates the support) and 3) kanga's base 100 outspeeds TR fake outers like scrafty and outspeeds sun/heatran fake outer hitmontop.

The exact sets I've been using:
Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Sucker Punch
- Protect

My use of Jolly kanga exaggerates the rise in usage of kangaskhan and the need to outspeed it.

Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Mild Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Punch
- Stealth Rock

I've noticed a rise in genesect, and thus fire punch. Also a rise in deoxys, and thus max spd to shadow ball first.

So all in all, as the metagame trends towards sun, and a rise in rain + SR should soon be following to counter the brightness.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

ShakeItUp mentioned a good point about switching. In this meta, i have found it a lot harder to switch pokes around during battle due to the sheer fact that some pokes are extremely strong. With the new mega evolutions giving most pokes a large power boost (mega kanga / chariYard) and with subtran being the hardest poke to beat in the meta atm, it is not as simple as 'switch in a resist' anymore. For example, i can switch in my metagross into a mega kanga return, but metagross will not be taking it very well (35-40%) and so metagross can now be taken out by another poke with greater ease. I would have to sack another poke on my team to get it in safely to beat the kanga. While switching has never been a major part of doubles because of 2 opponenets at once, it is now harder to so and an even smaller part.

 

[youngjake93]

ShakeItUp mentioned a good point about switching. In this meta, i have found it a lot harder to switch pokes around during battle due to the sheer fact that some pokes are extremely strong. With the new mega evolutions giving most pokes a large power boost (mega kanga / chariYard) and with subtran being the hardest poke to beat in the meta atm, it is not as simple as 'switch in a resist' anymore. For example, i can switch in my metagross into a mega kanga return, but metagross will not be taking it very well (35-40%) and so metagross can now be taken out by another poke with greater ease. I would have to sack another poke on my team to get it in safely to beat the kanga. While switching has never been a major part of doubles because of 2 opponenets at once, it is now harder to so and an even smaller part.

Switching is such a huuuuuuuge part of doubles once you are comfortable enough to make predictions and evaluate risk vs reward man. In fact, I'd argue that it is even more important to take into account than singles because anywhere from 1 to 4 Pokemon can switch each turn.
Kangaskhan and Charizard don't change it at all. There are still Pokemon that check them and there are still some that get their faces wrecked by them, just like the top threats of gen 5.

 

[Mizuhime]

minor nitpick at ShakeItUp you should probably switch Shadow Ball to Dark pulse on you're Deo. Same base power, Dark got a buff due to steel nerf and Dark Pulse has a chance to flinch n_n

tl;dr

Embrace your hax

 

[BlankZero]

Everyone's talking about "Switching in a Resist"

And I'm over here running Heatran, Gastrodon, and a Ghost type on almost all of my teams...


Seriously, there's a ton of mons that can completely eat attacks from powerful mons without having to Resist them. Dark types, Ghost types, Ground types, Flying/Levitate mons, Flash Fire, Sap Sipper, Storm Drain/Dry Skin.... There's so many possible ways to get around other heavy hitters, it's insane. The real issue is people are building straight Offense based teams in Doubles due to Power Creep (we thought it would drop off with Speed Creep going away after Gen 5) so people forgo any sort of defense...

 

[youngjake93]

Everyone's talking about "Switching in a Resist"

And I'm over here running Heatran, Gastrodon, and a Ghost type on almost all of my teams...


Seriously, there's a ton of mons that can completely eat attacks from powerful mons without having to Resist them. Dark types, Ghost types, Ground types, Flying/Levitate mons, Flash Fire, Sap Sipper, Storm Drain/Dry Skin.... There's so many possible ways to get around other heavy hitters, it's insane. The real issue is people are building straight Offense based teams in Doubles due to Power Creep (we thought it would drop off with Speed Creep going away after Gen 5) so people forgo any sort of defense...

The most popular dubs pokemon all have immunities and good bulk though -_-
Landorus-T has two immunities, intimidate and bulk.
Togekiss has two immunities and bulk
Even Garchomp has an immunity, a defensive ability and respectable bulk
Heck even mega charizard y has 115 sDef and mega kanga is bulkier than 100/100/100 iirc which is a lot of bulk.
The popular options aren't just "offense", they are just good.