Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Metagame Discussion

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The Leprechaun

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#first post in #Doubles ^_^


I'm not sure if this is the right thread or I'm missing something, but this is Doubles Suspect Stage, right?

I'd like for Mega Kanga to be suspected: It can OHKO more than 90% of the metagame after +2 Power Up Punch, which it can easily set up (with two targets for choosing!) and Follow Me users/Rage Powder users only help to further increase setup opportunities. Its Bulk also allows it to survive attacks such as Talonflame's Brave Bird, and with access to Sucker Punch it can kill other common priority users or faster opponents like Deoxys-A or Mega Gengar, while not to mention its partner can take care of the checks for Mega Kanghaskhan. Mega Kanga can sweep whole teams by itself, a minimum of 7 turns are needed for Mega Kanga to win a game hypothetically 1 vs 6, and now add on teammates and partners and Mega Kanga becomes a beast. Intimidate isn't too effective as Mega Kanga can simply boost again while dealing damage, while Burns can be nullified by Follow Me partners or Safeguard.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-stage-1-suspect-voting.3498478/


Something that i've been enjoying recently is Defiant Thundurus. With the loss of flying gem, physical Tornadus has become far less viable as its main form of STAB is hampered by hold items. Thundy on the other hand has reliable STAB in Wild Charge as well as having nice coverage in Knock Off, Superpower and, if necessary, HP Ice. Because of its traditional role of supporter/ special attacker it's unlikely to attract any Will-os and may be able to attract potential checks in to blast them out the way EG Dusclops, Cress, Ttar and a bunch of assault vest tanks (Conk, Goodra etc).



Thundurus (M) @ Zap Plate
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Protect
 
Okay, so something I want to point our attention to are the gaurd moves, more specifically wide gaurd, and quick gaurd.

Now as we all know these moves got a huge buff making them some of the most spammable moves in the game. the question, does this make these moves broken? (I'm going to just be dealing with wide gaurd).

for the case of wide guard being broken. spread moves now have a counter. pokemon who should fear earthquake, and heatwave like aegislash, now laugh as it does nothing giving his partner the chance to do his damage. plus there is no risk of it failing almost an imunity.

against the case of wide gaurd being broken. While it is spamable, it means using a pokemons turn for something which is not attaking which is a big oppertunity cost. Plus a bit of prediction can make the quick gaurd almost useless. also pokemon might simply run a single target move instead of a spread move.

So what are your guy's opinion on wide gaurd and quick gaurd, and its impact on the meta game?
 
Wide Guard isn't broken because it leaves the user vulnerable to every single target attack ever. If you solely rely on spamming spread moves to beat your opponent, than yea, Wide Guard is going to kick your butt. While effective, it is important to find a reasonable balance between spread and single target moves so you don't face that problem.
 

dcae

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ok so I tried out a really offensive team recently that is extremely match up based; it wins certain games cleanly while it crumbles versus others. I have, however, drawn a couple conclusions from it. First of all, Landorus Therian with Swagger is amazing. I know Landorus T already has some moveset space issues, but Swagger on Landorus T, not to mention Intimidate, means that it forces switches ridiculously often. The confuse damage can also open up OHKOs and 2HKOs that wouldn't be there otherwise, all while causing your opponent to either switch or give a free turn to the opponent. And, as we all know, free turns in doubles are even worse than singles. As a filler move, it is elite, but it fits especially well on a Pokemon like Lando-T because it has some good bulk to take wayward hits, it is relatively fast, and has Intimidate, forcing more switches. I know it's annoying af, but this is a cool filler move. Also, its notable for when Lando T gets burned; it can maintian "offensive presence" through the use of Swagger.

Other conclusion was that Thunder on Zapdos is also a cool alternative. The higher output allows some notable 2HKOs Thunderbolt misses, such as on Rotom-W, and the paralyze chance it provides can be amazing and clinch in many situations. Despite the low accuracy, the presence of Rain in the metagame does contribute to it still being accurate most of the time. Obviously, this is still majorly a matter of preference, but Thunder definitely pays off.
 

Audiosurfer

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My only thing w/ Thunder is that while Rain is starting to get a bit more popular, Sun is still hugely popular courtesy of Charizard-Y, so you'll end up with a 50% accurate STAB move whenever you face it. It and Swagger Landorus-T definitely sound interesting though. Do you have any replays of either of em in action? Would be cool to see before I could really say anything else judgment wise.
 

nyttyn

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Swagger is a fucking terrible move though. It has a 10% chance of doing nothing, not even applying the confusion, a 50% chance of giving your opp a +2 boost attack for free, and only a 50% chance to smack themselves in the face. That's roughly a 55%~ chance of doing nothing OR WORSE turn 1 (with 5% of that being a chance to bitchslap yourself in the face and wonder why you picked a move with a 10% miss chance that already has a coin flip chance of working), and a further 50% chance per turn until confusion wears off of doing absolutely nothing. Sure, it might be filler, but it's worse then a coin flip turn 1, and then it proceeds to be consecutive coinflips until confusion wears off. why would you ever want to sacrifice that over Protect, which is garunteed to protect landog at least once, or Explosion, which as has been prior mentioned momentum incarnate?
 

Electrolyte

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Any form of status by itself is very crippling in Doubles, whether it be Thunder Wave or Swagger. In Singles, you could use smart switching and pure type advantage to overcome status disadvantages, but doing so in Doubles is much riskier due to the doubled opposing offensive pressure. If one of your Pokemon is temporarily stunned by parahax or confusion, the tide is turned to two against one, giving your opponent a lot of momentum and offensive power. For this reason, things like Thundurus-I or Sableye are intensely annoying yet useful because of their ability to spread such crippling attacks with almost guaranteed reliability from Prankster. (like honestly I could simply just spam TWave with a thundy and not even be any worse off)

Swagger is just about as bad (or good if you're Satan) as everyone claims it to be. While theoretically the percentage chance that it does anything might be undesirable, it is a relatively risk free weapon to carry out in the field. In the long run, it has every bit of potential that attacks like Draco Meteor have to wreak havoc, simply because of its ability to stun and deal damage at the same time, indefinitely. In Singles, it's an annoyance. In Doubles, it's literally like permanent Fake Out spam so long as you're lucky enough (or unlucky enough if you're in the receiving end.) Think of it this way- using Nyttyn's numbers, Swagger has a 45% chance of not only stunning your opponent, but also dealing damage, and sometimes decent damage too, especially since it also applies a x2 opposing Attack boost to fuel the self-smack power. It's like a Fake Out that has a 45% chance to work (which is still very decent), and when it does, deals a shitton of damage depending on the opponent. as I said earlier, in those turns where the confused Pokemon hits itself, the field turns into two against one, and the opposing side immediately gains the chance to almost freely deal significant damage. And that's not just for the first turn; the chances rise to 50% until the confusion wears out. If both of your Pokemon are confused, only 25% of the time will both of them move, which is half the chance of one of them being stunned, and the same chance as neither of them moving.

Think about it. Two confused Pokemon, and 25% of the time, neither of them move, basically giving both of your opponent's Pokemon free attacks.


If you're worried about the attack boost being used against you; well, the numbers are just as much for you as they are against you. (except, not really) The amount of damage you'll take will not increase, because your opponent will only be (theoretically) attacking you 50% of the time, which neutralizes the x2 attack boost. And that's only if your opponent is a physical attacker; if they're a special attacker, it's even better for you, as their damage output will be effectively halved due to the fact that Swagger boosts their other offensive stat.

So... when again is it not worth it?
 
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