Other EVO Workshop Process Vote

[Deck Knight]

Only CAP 7 Policy Committee members can vote in this thread. Posts by anyone else will be deleted. Policy Committee members are listed here.

This thread is to decide which beginning process will be used for the EVO project.

Listed below are two proposals drafted by their supporters. The two choices are:

Pokemon w/Concept

Concept w/Selection Stage After

*A vote for Pokemon w/Concept first will have EVO start with a Pokemon+concept submission thread (as outlined in this post) with people submitting a pokemon to be evolved alongside a niche that the pokemon currently fills or is close to filling. The purpose of this is to allow EVO to distinguish itself from CAP by focusing on improving an existing (but flawed) concept rather than creating a new one.

*A vote for Concept w/Selection Stage After will have EVO begin as a Concept Submission thread where a concept is decided with an attached sample of applicable pokemon (as outlined in this post). The specific pokemon to apply it to [sample listed and any community suggestions included] are discussed as the options for the next poll. Options deemed to have the best support will move on. The purpose for this is to identify a solid concept for EVO that stands on its own before allowing it to be judged in part by the popularity of a specific pokemon.

Here's how to vote:

This is a bold poll.

Please bold your preference and provide reasoning.

 

[tennisace]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

I feel that choosing the Pokemon with no direction whatsoever opens the doors for "just because" evolutions with no purpose other than to evolve the Pokemon. It's wide open, which is pretty much a bad thing since you can invent a niche for any Pokemon. You can't invent a Pokemon to fit a niche (in EVO that is).

 

[cyberzero]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

I've advocated this throughout the EVO workshop, giving multiple examples as well as pros and cons of both, with this clearly outweighing Pokemon/w Concept.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

I personally believe this is the best way to go. Without any clear direction towards what we want, the project would surely fall flat on it's face with people submitting Pokemon they want to evolve for "just because" reasons. A concept gives use something to guide us as we choose which Pokemon to evolve at the time.

 

[Bass]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

I agree with GT in that we need to start the process with some kind of direction, and going by Concept first will be the best way to go about this, in my opinion.

 

[latinoheat]

Pokemon w/Concept

The purpose of evo should be to take something that already has a role and just enhance that to benefit the OU metagame.

Making up a concept then trying to find the best UU pokemon to fit that is just like a glorified CAP project.

Concept first is also influenced a lot more by the "flavour" vote

I know some people have been saying a concept poll beforehand is the best way, but I believe this is a horrid idea which favours the "fanboys" vote, it is also incredibly biased.

Say somebody submitted a concept of “Rapid Spinner that beats Ghosts" and another concept submitted was "Physical attacker".

Looking at the current UU pokemon exactly 11 pokemon learn rapid spin, which is without even factoring in things such as 3rd stage pokemon which will be excluded.
I haven't even looked at the UU list for things which already fit into this physical sweeper idea and just need a little upgrade to be a benefit to the OU enviroment, but I can guarantee it is significantly more then 11.


Everybody has an idea of what they want to evolve and a lot of that is for "flavour" reasons, whatever you say or how good your process is will not change everyone’s mind.
There is a much larger chance that pokemon will fit into say "physical attacker" then say rapid spinner or 90% of other concepts for that matter.

If 50 of these flavour votes happened to be for pokemon that fit under the physical attacker concept, that’s a good amount of votes and give physical attacker a good chance of winning the concept poll.

Why? Because 50 people's favourite pokemon just happened to sit under a much broader concept, not because they considered if the concept would be the "best" for the OU environment.

If each pokemon is split up into individual niches instead of lumped together under one concept, suddenly these flavour votes are much less harmful. Sure something like Farfetch'd might get 10 of these votes but it’s not going to make it win for all the wrong reasons.

Individual threads for each pokemon will no doubt clutter the forum up and be a bitch for the TL to manage. Maybe we should have 5-6 people including the TL and then people PM their pokemon discussion to one of these people and they determine if it is suitable.

This is less work for the TL and it also gets rid of the whole favouritism idea that a lot of people seem to be bitching about with the way the current concept process for CAP. If people want to say this approach demeans the TL then they need to realize the aim of this project is not a popularity contest.

 

[Goodbar]

Pokemon w/ Concept

I think this option will allow us to take a better look at our options and get a view of the larger picture, separate CAP from EVO, and reduce fanboy influence.

 

[Lawman]

Concept w/ Selection Stage After

I have been an avid supporter of this from the start, and I strongly believe from a Competitive stand-point this would be more beneficial to the project as a whole.

 

[Naxte]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

Going with the Pokemon first won't really do too much to stop fanboyism. This can be learned from how the last attempt at EVO went (the attaching of a conecpt of "Samurai Duck" to it, a currently sucky Pokemon that "desperately needs an evolution more than any of the other options" was part of what made people go crazy for it).

By going with Pokemon and Concept first, people would be able to pull off something similar (granted, something like Samurai Duck Farftech'd shouldn't come up due to the rules, but it won't stop fanboyism which follows a similar route); simply selecting whatever Pokemon they want and attaching a concept that doesn't break the rules. Then, when the first poll comes, the project would already be at the mercy of the fanboys, who would go for the "cool" Pokemon and go for it, not giving too much thought to the more boring niche parts of the post (which are what should be focused on) and instead focusing on the Pokemon themselves and the way their described.

Going with the niche first will allow the process to start with better direction and focus. Though granted, it too has its own problems, which can be seen in even the current CAP (the number of people going with Sikh Assassin's concept, despite half of the CAPs already being able to be considered bulky or tanks, for some reason, provides an indication that not even going with concept first can get people really focused on what the current meta-game needs), but I still feel it will wind up better (although admittedly, not by much) than allowing for the Pokemon the be selected in the first stage.

 

[billymills]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

I Believe it was my idea in the first place, I like it because it highlights the importance of the concept, and thus the competitive aspect. While both options are require a concept, this one allows more choice going into the concept discussion and pokemon vote selection, giving us more time to think about the impacts of each concept, and make the correct decision.

Also, I can foresee many 'I like concept A, but I think it would be preferable on pokemon B'. Instead, we can remove duplicate concepts for different pokemon.

I'm also pretty sure, if it was really necessary, that we could nerf an evolution, so that it would not be used for a secondary niche, and make sure the concept desired is the main use.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

This will provide us with more direction towards the rest of the project, and if we did Pokemon w/ Concept, a lot of people would just throw in thier favorite Pokemon with a weak reason to support it.

 

[Captain]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

For pretty much reasons that are already stated. Allowing concept with pokemon allows a more direct flavor vote since the pokemon is presented as soon as possible. At least now rabid fanboys will have to be patient and perhaps have to think about what concept fits what pokemon. Put more positively, it gives us a metagame based direction before anything else, which I feel is rather important. Concept with Pokemon doesn't necessarily emphasize that.

 

[beej]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

I have provided my reasoning in the discussion thread, but to reiterate, I feel that this is the best way to get new information out of the Pokemon that we create in the EVO project. With Pokmon/concept, not only do we make ourselves incredibly open to fanboy votes in the very beginning, but we are leaving the monumental competitive decision of what base Pokemon to use up to the person submitting the concept when we could otherwise be leaving it up to the community to decide, maximizing our options.

 

[Plus]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

I feel it's better to define what we want in a Pokemon before we even consider choosing one to evolve. This way, we avoid instances in which it's extremely hard to fit a desired concept in a pokemon we chose that has no relevance to the concept wanted, thus restricting EVO even further.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

As Beej has said, Pokemon w/Concept leaves us much more open to fanboy/fangirl voting, whereas Concept w/Selection allows us to begin EVO in a much better direction.

 

[Not Scicky]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

Keeping fanboys/fangirls out as best as possible should really be one of our first priorities with this project, and as beej said, this is the best (or only) way to do this...

 

[X-Act]

I don't mind either methods, but I prefer Pokemon w/ Concept.

Otherwise the EVO process would be too much similar to CAP.

 

[jagged_angel]

Pokemon w/Concept

I also prefer this. I think it fits more with ethos of evolving a Pokemon.
If you choose a Concept first, there really is No Reason not to make a CAP to fit the Concept.

 

[hydrolphin]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

Arguements in thread.

 

[eric the espeon]

Pokemon w/Concept

I think that this will lead to a more directed project from the start.
Also Latino's reasoning, specifically this point:
If each pokemon is split up into individual niches instead of lumped together under one concept, suddenly these flavour votes are much less harmful. Sure something like Farfetch'd might get 10 of these votes but it’s not going to make it win for all the wrong reasons.

 

[darkie]

Concept w/Selection Stage After


I think this is the best way to maintain focus, something I've always advocated in processes.

 

[Magmortified]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

It's probably the best way to keep things on-track.

 

[User 12783]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

 

[v]

I'll have to go with Pokemon with Concept after much deliberation. As said before, this gives the project more direction from the start. To me, EVO is more about seeing why Pokemon are unviable and seeing how we can rectify the problem. Inventing a niche and then speculating what Pokemon could plausibly fill the niche seems a little contradictory to the purpose of EVO and does just make it a flavorful CaP, as some complained earlier. Either method opens us up to fanboys/girls at some point. I think we have more to learn from this method and thus voted for it.

 

[Elevator Music]

Concept w/Selection Stage After

I'm not worried about the process being too similar to CAP's (really its next to impossible to get the same result anyways), and it provides more focus.