We talked about suspecting Quiver Dance and / or Baton Pass and came to the conclusion that there is not enough evidence right now that either of these are broken. Most of us on the council and on this thread think that Venomoth is easily the best abuser of Quiver Dance and that the combination of Quiver Dance + Sleep Powder + Baton Pass + Tinted Lens makes Venomoth broken. If Venomoth gets banned and there is evidence that Quiver Dance passing is still broken, we may suspect those moves and consider unbanning Venomoth, but right now we only have enough evidence to say that Venomoth itself might be broken, so we are suspecting Venomoth.
252 SpA Rotom Thunderbolt vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Venomoth: 102-120 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom: 302-356 (125.3 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Scarf Rotom stops Venomoth.
This ^^^Also, is there a place where we can post our teams? I would like to see what everyone else is up to and maybe we could all collab and stuff :D
I would like this as well. I'm very interested in seeing what people think about different playstyles in this admittedly very diverse metagame.Also, is there a place where we can post our teams? I would like to see what everyone else is up to and maybe we could all collab and stuff :D
SmashPass >>>>>>>>>> QuiverPassI think we should just have a QuiverPass ban, just like with the Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban.
Here or here. Just make sure you follow the rules of that thread.
I really feel that this is unnecessary, offensive venomoth is also a thing and may I add that it is insanely good. Also this is very excessive as we all know that venomoth is the only user of quiverpass that is good (smeargle is ok but god is the belly drum set fun and the lead set has been very kind to me) and if this is the best user of quiver pass when none other are broken that is basically your point. Should we go through with your ban there will be massive confusion as that comes with all complex bans which a lot of people are against. Hmm maybe we should ban sniper and swift swim on kingdra to make it not broken! That is basically what you are proposing but for venomoth.quiver pass shouldnt be banned to me, quiver pass on venomoth should and is broken. i cant really tell you if venomoth without baton pass is broken or not i just know that baton pass is.
Ban Quiver Pass Venomoth so we can have single visibility on whether moh is broken rather than seeing whether venomoth and nidoqueen with quiver dance boosts is.
I'd try Specs Charmeleon for instant power (+it 2HKO's Quag with whatever), you already got 2 sweepers/cleaners in Fletchinder and Weepinbell. Meanwhile I'd add a Sunny Day'er (or two). Sun teams can usually get up sun once or twice a game, which if often not enough. Something like Klefki with Sunny Day and Spikes as your team has no hazards either.Ok so here goes nothing this is mah team :D
So this is a Sun Offense team that is still in it's early stages. I still haven't gotten to over 1150 on alts yet (which I blame to me not knowing the month's meta that much and the team still being in early builds lol). But yeah here goes nothin.
Vulpix @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Hypnosis
Fletchinder
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Acrobatics
- Fire Blast
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
Weepinbell @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Weather Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Charmeleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Dragon Pulse
- Flame Charge
Rotom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
So the basic premise of the team is to shut down any setup sweepers and cripple physical attackers w/ Scarf Rotom. Once I accomplish that, I clear hazards w/ Staryu and then use Wallbreaker Charmeleon to wear down threats such as Quag and nuke things with Fire Blast. After that is done, I attempt to clean up the match w/ Fletchlinder's Acrobatics and Weepinbell's amazing coverage and power. Imo Weepinbell is one of the best mons in the tier w/ Sun Support, as it basically 2hko's everything not named Golbat.
Tell me what you think, I need the help lol :D
The fletchinder set needs a really big revamp:I'd try Specs Charmeleon for instant power (+it 2HKO's Quag with whatever), you already got 2 sweepers/cleaners in Fletchinder and Weepinbell. Meanwhile I'd add a Sunny Day'er (or two). Sun teams can usually get up sun once or twice a game, which if often not enough. Something like Klefki with Sunny Day and Spikes as your team has no hazards either.
Sorry for not giving a huge analysis, but it's pretty late and I'm bad at those stuff! Props for using such an underrated style though.
facepalmI really feel that this is unnecessary, offensive venomoth is also a thing and may I add that it is insanely good. Also this is very excessive as we all know that venomoth is the only user of quiverpass that is good (smeargle is ok but god is the belly drum set fun and the lead set has been very kind to me) and if this is the best user of quiver pass when none other are broken that is basically your point. Should we go through with your ban there will be massive confusion as that comes with all complex bans which a lot of people are against. Hmm maybe we should ban sniper and swift swim on kingdra to make it not broken! That is basically what you are proposing but for venomoth.
Ok you really misread my post and I don want no trouble but the thing is that there is literally no benefit to banning quiver pass moth over just moth in general... Also you are trying to say that damp kingdra was broken? Complex bans should only happen when they're actually needed because eg the swift swim ban in bw was good so that you could use drizzle in the meta just lose a key component but rain was still god as we all know. You might think this draws parallels to your proposal but the thing is that there is literally no downside to banning venomoth so I find it incredibly pointless banning quiverpass on it.facepalm
you missed the whole point of what i am saying. nothing about a quiver Pass ban. just one on venomoth. and it was not just critdra and swift swimdra that were broken imo.
I am all for complex bans on other metas. The complication is actually to our benefit, new players might read up on the metagame before just trying to jump in and that might prevent noobs from using bad strategies and low ladder shit, and to also help them get better quickly. the problem in OU and primary in game metas is that wifi players cant be expected to adhere to such rules and as such this can cause major problems and people gaining bad reps in the community. In this meta that is not an issue as the only people who play it have to have seen the thread and read the rules. Therefore one complex ban doesnt have a major issue here: everybody who plays reads the thread. i think that we will not get next man up syndrome in this meta as it is just unnatural. therefore i think we dont have to worry about one complex ban becoming like 5.
except for banning a great pokemon unneccessarily (it would be great if i spelled that right). This would be like a mega charX ban, rather than if it had baton pass and we banned bp on charX instead of charX as a whole. Lets not argue about charX on this thread please feel free to pm me. Venomoth without BP is in no ways truly broken as a metagame limiting factor, so i do not see it as stupid to attempt to see if it is not broken in other ways or if banning bp on it would solve our problem. its a proposal, nothing official and since a suspect has already started and i cant expect a change. if none is made i will vote ban venomothOk you really misread my post and I don want no trouble but the thing is that there is literally no benefit to banning quiver pass moth over just moth in general... Also you are trying to say that damp kingdra was broken? Complex bans should only happen when they're actually needed because eg the swift swim ban in bw was good so that you could use drizzle in the meta just lose a key component but rain was still god as we all know. You might think this draws parallels to your proposal but the thing is that there is literally no downside to banning venomoth so I find it incredibly pointless banning quiverpass on it.
(I don't mean to come off as hostile in this post. If I do, know that it was not intended)The fletchinder set needs a really big revamp:
Fletchinder@no item
Adamant Nature
Evs: idk look it up it's not a cookie cutter spread
-acrobatics
-swords dance
-will-o-wisp
-roost
Recover>psychic on staryu
Vulpix shouldn't use hypnosis and give it eviolite.
Like snaq said use specs charmeleon.
This is up to you but I would make rotom a subsplit set with substitute / pain split / shadow ball / tbolt or volt switch.
Other then that seems pretty good!