Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[LORD SAGIS]

I'm intresting in seeing how banning Arena Trap will affect how Genesect deals with its counter play. Right now it can just U-Turn on Toxapex and Heatran and then Dugtrio can just remove them. I feel like banning Arena Trap would make checking Genesect far easier consider how many of Genesect's checks are weak to Dugtrio. Right now I only feel comfortable with Aegislash and Rotom-H in countering Genesect most of the time because of there immunity to Arena Trap. My official opinion on Genesect is more or less the same as ABR's post when it was suspected in gen 7, I don't think you need to have hard counters to it on every team. However I do think that banning Arena Trap is the right step onward because it just lets any offensive threat get past they're defensive counter play with very little effort involved and it lets stall get past most of the common stall breakers. Therefore I'm definitely on board with getting this broken ass ability out of the metagame.

 

[Predator145]

How is everyone finding Darm and Vish so far? Does every bulky offense and balance team need dedicated answers for them? But NDOU has a bunch of just as as scary threats running around to be accounted for.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

How is everyone finding Darm and Vish so far? Does every bulky offense and balance team need dedicated answers for them? But NDOU has a bunch of just as as scary threats running around to be accounted for.

Darm and Vish were hyped up as ridiculously OP early on (mainly by me) but as the meta settled neither is that big of a threat. Seismitoad has become a household name so its easier to combat Vish, and Darm is really fragile and weak to rocks which hurts his role in volt turn.

I personally think Genesect is fine if we get rid of Arena Trap.

 

[Sputnik]

Time to throw in my two cents on the "What to suspect/ban first and when" train

Duggy (Or, Arena Trap specifically. If people wanna run Sand Force suicide lead Duggy for some reason be my guest) should be the first to go in my opinion. It's taken the metagame by storm after Dynamax was banned, and it's looking to be an absolute force once again. It's ability to trap and eliminate the standard fare of Heatran, Toxapex, Tyranitar, etc. puts a ton of pressure on common balance cores and makes it even harder to cover all of the potent offensive threats that are running around. Heatran being trapped is the most notable one right now; Tran's defensive presence can't be understated right now as it effectively checks a laundry list of excellent Pokemon who can potentially run wild if it is taken care of. Enter Dugtrio, who forces the Tran player to play extremely carefully and predictably or else Tran will be taking an EQ to the face. Dugtrio is doing exactly what got it banned in the last three generations and it should be Quick Banned if you ask me.

One of the reasons I want to ditch Dugtrio first is because a lot of what beats this is super Dugtrio prone. Without Dugtrio Genesect suddenly has to make some tough calls about which coverage move it wants to use. Mainly it becomes Heatran prone unless it runs HP Ground, which serves virtually no purpose outside of nailing Tran and limits its coverage anyway. Even without Dugtrio this will probably be super overbearing, but I think testing the bug in a Duggy less metagame could be worth it.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Blastoise suspect but the other two are higher priority in my opinion. Zygarde we should worry about down the line once the other three are addressed but it should be on the radar imo.

 

[Guard]

I agree with the sentiment in the previous posts that it is quite frank this tier isn't balanced yet, and therefore a few Pokemon in particular need to be addressed. This is the course I have in mind;


In my opinion, Arena Trap should be quickbanned first and foremost, due to several reasons. The addition of a Dynamax clause severely boosted Dugtrio's viability in the tier, since archetypes other than Offense have a much larger presence right now, giving Dugtrio the opportunity to unhealthily excel along with abusers such as Genesect and Mega Charizard Y against these archetypes. It also means that Dugtrio victims do not have the option of Dynamaxing defensively in order to beat it 1v1. Due to the nature of trapping, Dugtrio can turn otherwise relatively equal matchups on their head by eliminating specific counters, which stands in the way of diversity since it pushes the need of niche options, such as Shed Shell. I am advocating for an Arena Trap quickban, as it has been proved in the past that Diglett and Trapinch are capable of replacing Dugtrio in specific situations, as is outlined in this post. I also think Arena Trap does not warrant a suspect test, due to it being a blatantly broken mechanic that should be banned either way.


I agree that from a standalone perspective, Genesect is the most potent and controversial Pokemon currently, due to its immense set versatility and ability to either beat its checks with specific coverage moves or easily generate momentum from its checks and racking up solid chip damage in the process. Yet, it must be noted that most Genesect-sets do have a few reliable checks in the likes of Toxapex and Heatran, which currently are not so reliable due to Genesect's access to U-turn and Dugtrio as a teammate. Hence I believe it might be worth it to observe Genesect's prowess after quickbanning Arena Trap, which is an obviously broken mechanic regardless and act accordingly based on those observations. However, due to the fact that Genesect has been suspected and banned in the OU metagame for the previous three generations, I believe it is in the tier's best interest to suspect Genesect either way at some point, as there is a legitimate prospect of it being broken in the current metagame too, and I would not be opposed to it being quickbanned/suspected (before/along with Arena Trap) either. Nevertheless, I do think quickbanning Arena Trap first is an option that warrants consideration.


These should be on the radar once Arena Trap and Genesect are handled, but in my opinion do not require immediate action right now.

 

[N_Mareanie]

I 100% agree that this thing, or I guess Arena Trap, has absolutely no place here. Time and time again this ability has been proven that it causes nothing but problems. It has the ability to remove such a large portion of the metagame with its simple Focus Sash set. Pokemon like Heatran, Chansey, Toxapex, Magearna, Kyurem, Tyranitar, Mega Diance and many more are just not save when this thing is at 100%, and just creates an overall extreme amount of competitiveness and unhealthiness. Not only to speak of the Pokemon that all pair so good with it. Genesect, Blacephalon, Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y etc. Especially in Genesects case it's a huge problem. I think this doesn't even deserve a suspect like it has already been said. Quickban would be my personal preference.

Genesect has proven itself to be one of the best Pokemon in the tier. The amount of coverage and sets it has is downright amazing. I never really thought this thing was a problem though, untill the Z-Move sets were popping up more. The amount of (unpredictable) coverage combined with its good offenses allowes it to break through a lot of common would-be-checks with Z-Moves. Firium Z for Mega Metagross, Corviknight, Aegislash, Steelium Z for defensive Landorus-T etc. Even Pokemon that would be considered decent checks, like Toxapex and Heatran, can get caught by a Thunderbolt or HP Ground. However, this is where Genesects problems come into play. It wants to hit so many things that sometimes it just can't choose what to hit, creating a 4MSS. This is patched well by Dugtrio its presence of course, but if we're going to (quick)ban Arena Trap, Genesect might still be a fine candidate. We can't really tell unless we're in the meta itself I guess, but it wouldn't hurt trying. But all in all, I think a suspect would be fine down the line.

Am I the only one who thinks Aegislash, SubTox specifically, is ridiculously easy to abuse, or either super difficult to reliably counter? Even with the nerves to its defenses (going from base 150 to base 140), its bulk is still super solid, allowing it to actually get up a Substitute against many Pokemon like Rotom-Wash, EQ-less Mega Metagross, Tapu Lele/Bulu, BoltBeam Magearna, Hawlucha etc. It then creates its usual 50/50's (despite King's Shield being nerved, this still happens a ton) and just proceeds to spam Toxic everywhere. Checks like Heatran really doesn't enjoy constantly taking a Shadow Ball on the switch each time it comes in (maybe even Rocks damage upon that), Chansey walls SubTox Aegi but Aegi also walls Chansey so you're not really getting anywhere, Taunt Mandibuzz works untill you get caught by a Toxic on the switch (which isn't that hard to do since Mandibuzz will most likely switch in to any Aegi). Corviknight could Pressure stall but Shadow Ball still does some decent damage and it has to worry about SpDef drops. The fact that this Pokemon can just sit there on the field, switching between Toxic - King's Shield - Shadow Ball - King's Shield etc etc with that good of defenses and pretty good offense as well, is just hard to deal with for many teams. It might be a bit less problematic than Pokemon like Genesect and Arena Trap, but I feel like we definitely shouldn't ignore its presence in the metagame and what effect it has on it. Of course SubTox isn't its only set, stuff like SD works well. Close Combat can catch Pokemon like Bisharp and Heatran on the switch, which will always create the guessing game of which and what Aegislash you're dealing with.

I don't have an opinion on Mega Blastoise and Zygarde regarding bans yet, but I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect later on in the metagame.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

I do not see how Zygarde requires a suspect test. He is incredibly powerful but nowhere near as meta centralizing as Mega Blastoise and Dugtrio. Double Dance Zygarde and Sutoxic are good but certainly not overpowered and have their share of checks and threats. Zygarde's lower speed tier makes him bait to lots of shit like Darm, Gene, Gren, Blast, and the presence of bulky grass in the tier makes him unable to sweep if he doesnt run subtoxic.

 

[theotherguytm]

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place/time for this, but can I just ask why we go through every gen and unban a bunch of garbage that we spent ages getting rid of the previous gen, in spite of the fact that all of the reasons we banned them for still apply. Out of all the unbanned mons from the start of the gen, only Deoxys-D does not currently overcentralize the tier. Funnily enough, Deoxys-D was also the only one we hadn't tested in Gen 7. Let's take a look at the list shall we:
Arena Trap: I have no idea what possible reason this was unbanned under. While I appreciate the initial tiering was done while Dmax was assumed fine, I especially have no idea why it hasn't been quickbanned since. Please do something about this.
Mega Metagross: Again, perhaps unbanned under the assumption that Dmax would be a thing. Again, needs dealing with or we get stuck with broken checks broken.
Lol. The players said +1 U-turn.exe was not fun. They were right. Also:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-digital-love-genesect-is-now-banned.3590692/
What of the reasoning here does not apply? What has changed since we last banned this mon for the 3rd time? Soon, unless Duggy's ban changes the meta a lot, we'll be banning it for the 4th time. Can we wait for a major change before we unban it again? Yes, Dmax is a major change. But the moment we banned it we should have reverted to SM banlist IMO, quickbanned Mega Toise, then suspected mons to come back in. It works in lower tiers. Throw quickbans around like candy until the game stabilizes, then suspect the banned stuff to see if it can be healthy.
Sub Toxic was one of the main reasons we banned this thing. Guess what it's doing? Sub Toxic. With the nerf it seemed ok at first glance, but it losing Toxic was a bit part of that nerf. Again, should have been suspected while banned rather than flat unbanned.
Mandating bulky grasses, check. Cheesing checks, check. Nothing has changed for this mon.
I think this speaks for itself. The mods have done a great job thusfar, but these mons need to go ASAP. We swallow our pride, admit we were wrong, and boot them back up to Ubers where they belong. This is OU, not Ubers UU, and broken checks broken is not a thing here.

 

[DaRkRaii]

Genesect is completely fine. Dugtrio is the problem. Same principle for any Poke that is good at abusing U-turn. Same reason why Volt-Turn teams will always be good. Being able to generate momentum by switching with a move and then going in to a Pokemon that will trap and auto-eliminate because of a bad match-up is huge. Without Dugtrio, that playstyle won't be possible in the same variety. Not to mention Heatran exists and he walls every single possible Genesect set. He only gains less viability in this case BECAUSE of the existence of Dugtrio who laughs at and traps Heatran.

 

[theotherguytm]

Genesect is completely fine. Dugtrio is the problem. Same principle for any Poke that is good at abusing U-turn. Same reason why Volt-Turn teams will always be good. Being able to generate momentum by switching with a move and then going in to a Pokemon that will trap and auto-eliminate because of a bad match-up is huge. Without Dugtrio, that playstyle won't be possible in the same variety. Not to mention Heatran exists and he walls every single possible Genesect set. He only gains less viability in this case BECAUSE of the existence of Dugtrio who laughs at and traps Heatran.

It would be completely fine IF spamming U-turn was all Genesect did. Unfortunately, it's not. Genesect has about 5 possible sets with very few shared checks between them, and lots of mix-and-match between moves in those sets too. +1 U-turning all its checks for easy chip damage is just the cherry on top of the pile of garbage it does.
And "any" Genesect set?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 300-356 (77.7 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Expert Belt Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 360-427 (93.2 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Genesect Techno Blast (Water) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 300-354 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
You best EV your mons so Genesect always gets the Atk boost. But I think I for one would rather not have to run Defensive Heatran on all my teams and EV my mons so their SpD is 1 higher than their Def. And even then if it's Banded you get dunked on.
Edit: Someone last gen (called Akkeshi):

There's not much that you can really say about Gene that hasn't already been said numerous times in every other suspect Gene has had, so I'm going to keep this brief. It's incredibly versatile largely due to its great typing/coverage/ability/stats. The main problem I've always seen with Gene is that though; it can be slapped out any team without any thought and will probably win more games than any other Pokemon on that team. It's ability to just u-turn out on anything that switches into it means that as long as you can spam volt-turn you are always going to have the momentum in your favour. The +1 STAB u-turn is also going to do considerable chip damage to most things not named heatran.

Common OU walls like celesteela, ferro and toxapex can take hits from gene but then there's always the risk that it's not the scarf set (shift gear/rp) which means gene sets up and drives a bus through your team (blaze kick/flamethrower/tbolt coverage). Gene also has access to +2 priority in the form of espeed which is in many cases enough to clean up in the lategame.

It's likely that banning gene will lead to tapu lele being even more prominent but right now I think the tier stands to benefit more from the absence of gene than its continued usage.

tldr: Why are we not just quickbanning this? Have we learnt nothing from previous gens?

The answer to that last question apparently is still "nope".

 

[DaRkRaii]

It would be completely fine IF spamming U-turn was all Genesect did. Unfortunately, it's not. Genesect has about 5 possible sets with very few shared checks between them, and lots of mix-and-match between moves in those sets too. +1 U-turning all its checks for easy chip damage is just the cherry on top of the pile of garbage it does.
And "any" Genesect set?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 300-356 (77.7 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Expert Belt Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 360-427 (93.2 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Genesect Techno Blast (Water) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 300-354 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
You best EV your mons so Genesect always gets the Atk boost. But I think I for one would rather not have to run Defensive Heatran on all my teams and EV my mons so their SpD is 1 higher than their Def. And even then if it's Banded you get dunked on.
Edit: Someone last gen (called Akkeshi):

The answer to that last question apparently is still "nope".

And you would have to be either really bad or inexperienced to not realize that if a Gene is coming in and getting a special attack boost, it's NOT a U-turn spam choice scarf set. Genesect is good, don't get me wrong. But he's nowhere near as good as Mega Meta, Mega Blastoise, Zygarde and the like. You don't auto-lose to any of those sets. He's easily revenged if he doesn't have a scarf and Heatran walls it's scarf variant (since scarf always EV's for the attack boost and Tran OHKO's back if the Genesect is dumb enough to stay in). There's a reason why Genesect is primarly seen as a U-turn spam scarf user. It's the best niche it has. Those other calcs highlight it's versatility, don't get me wrong. But there are multiple better options in that role while you can have Genesect as a revenge killer/momentum grabber.

 

[Jho]

And you would have to be either really bad or inexperienced to not realize that if a Gene is coming in and getting a special attack boost, it's NOT a U-turn spam choice scarf set. Genesect is good, don't get me wrong. But he's nowhere near as good as Mega Meta, Mega Blastoise, Zygarde and the like. You don't auto-lose to any of those sets. He's easily revenged if he doesn't have a scarf and Heatran walls it's scarf variant (since scarf always EV's for the attack boost and Tran OHKO's back if the Genesect is dumb enough to stay in). There's a reason why Genesect is primarly seen as a U-turn spam scarf user. It's the best niche it has. Those other calcs highlight it's versatility, don't get me wrong. But there are multiple better options in that role while you can have Genesect as a revenge killer/momentum grabber.

This isnt how Download works, it has nothing to do with Genesects set, it gets a boost depending on the opponents lowest defense stat. There is no way to tell what set a Genesect is, other than it must be shiny to have Extreme Speed, Blaze Kick, or Shift Gear. If it's not shiny it cant have any of those, but that just adds to the mind games as you can make it shiny and forgo these.

 

[DaRkRaii]

This isnt how Download works, it has nothing to do with Genesects set, it gets a boost depending on the opponents lowest defense stat. There is no way to tell what set a Genesect is, other than it must be shiny to have Extreme Speed, Blaze Kick, or Shift Gear. If it's not shiny it cant have any of those, but that just adds to the mind games as you can make it shiny and forgo these.

My mistake. Had a brain fart. That does make him more threatening, I just don't see him as suspect worthy/meta defining in the same way I said the others that I listed. I can understand how someone can have a different opinion though.

 

[Cabneet]

After looking at the responses, I would fine with a suspect and I do think I was a bit harsh on it. I made that post to get people talking about it because of how it effects team building. I guess a suspect wouldn't hurt then. Although I am questioning "counter play" like Scarf Punishment Weavile, AV Azumarill, and AV Tapu Bulu as "healthy."

I dont think you were hard on it at all.
As soon as you start suggesting scarf koko and unaware clefable you are already making your mons run inferior sets to check this threat.
Your only REAL, GENERALLY USEFUL answers post shell smash are Fini, scarf Pult, scarf Gren, ditto, AV magearna, and AV tang, and EXCEPTIONALLY powerful priority that it doesnt resist (which is rare and even then it needs to be weakened significantly first. People mentioned using gren's water Shuriken as if that isnt bouncing off and stoise doesnt need to be at like 15% to 25%) The thing is ridiculous in the builder and I absolutely agree it should have been quickbanned.

 

[VCrakeV]

I dont think you were hard on it at all.
As soon as you start suggesting scarf koko and unaware clefable you are already making your mons run inferior sets to check this threat.
Your only REAL, GENERALLY USEFUL answers post shell smash are Fini, scarf Pult, scarf Gren, ditto, AV magearna, and AV tang, and EXCEPTIONALLY powerful priority that it doesnt resist (which is rare and even then it needs to be weakened significantly first. People mentioned using gren's water Shuriken as if that isnt bouncing off and stoise doesnt need to be at like 15% to 25%) The thing is ridiculous in the builder and I absolutely agree it should have been quickbanned.

I'm not sure how viable scarf Koko is, but unaware Clefable is definitely viable (at least on stall). I actually built a team without Mega Blastoise in mind (because I wasn't up to date with the meta), but my team can deal with it anyway. Unaware Clefable checks sets that lack hydro pump, and I have an AV Amoonguss as well (check the most recent post in bazaar, if you'd like to see the team).

 

[theotherguytm]

Just to add another thing on the "Genesect crime list":
Genesect, like in all previous gens and Greninja in XY, has access to near-infinite coverage without suffering 4MSS. Thanks to U-Turn letting it pivot out of anything it doesn't beat, and the fact your opponent is forced to assume it's got all its moves until he knows the exact set thanks to mix-and-match between sets. So a Genesect that only reveals Shift Gear right at the end, for all you know could have Tbolt, Ice Beam, HP Ground, Flamethrower, Techno Blast or even Espeed. There's just no way to know until the Genesect player reveals it.

 

[Cabneet]

I'm not sure how viable scarf Koko is, but unaware Clefable is definitely viable (at least on stall). I actually built a team without Mega Blastoise in mind (because I wasn't up to date with the meta), but my team can deal with it anyway. Unaware Clefable checks sets that lack hydro pump, and I have an AV Amoonguss as well (check the most recent post in bazaar, if you'd like to see the team).

I totally forgot Unaware clef just dies to hydro pump regardless, that's hilarious.
Yeah, unaware clef is a bad answer, especially considering that Hydro is actually becoming more common as people realize they can just trap the mons they needed aura sphere for anyway barring chansey.
As for AV amoonguss... I understand people brought that thing with them unironically last gen too, but really I'd argue it was because gren and mag were problematic in themselves. I dont like the direction any meta is going in where it's like "oh yeah hey lets gimp amoonguss and force it to only use attacking moves because we REALLY need that extra bulk" and that's NOT a bad idea.
Regular spdef amoonguss dies to ice beam after rocks btw, and my headcalc definitely point to even AV amoonguss losing if stoise has screens (which further shows there are no real defensive answers)

In fact, barring the aforementioned assault vest regenerators, most of the "best answers" to mega stoise will just straight up die if they switch hard into it on a predicted shell smash and mega stoise just opts to attack instead.
So yeah, those are poor answers too, desu.

Unbanning various ubers at the same time as these massive threats being power-creeped into the game was a mistake, methinks. Building for scarf timid eruption tran, mega metagross, genesect, Zygarde-50, the handful of gen 8 threats, AND mega blastoise with ARENA TRAP legal? Lol. We really should have waited a few months before unbanning anything that wasnt so obviously trash as deo-d. I dont think many people, myself included, thought Natdex would be much more than "Gen 7 with like 20 new mons" but we were very wrong.

 

[UltraxBlade]

I totally forgot Unaware clef just dies to hydro pump regardless, that's hilarious.

252+ SpA Blastoise-Mega Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

SpDef Unaware Clef can wall Blastoise even with modest pump. Especially considering Unaware Clef usually runs Wish+Protect, allowing it to stall an extra turn of leftovers recovery, so at full health it can even hard switch in with rocks up. Of course, this means running SpDef instead of PhysDef on your Clefable, making it vulnerable to some of the other threats you’d want it to counter, but this does let it safely counter any Blastoise set. (Doesn’t mean MegaToise isn’t broken, I do think it’s probably worth a suspect, but Unaware Clef is a reliable answer to it)

 

[Cabneet]

252+ SpA Blastoise-Mega Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

SpDef Unaware Clef can wall Blastoise even with modest pump. Especially considering Unaware Clef usually runs Wish+Protect, allowing it to stall an extra turn of leftovers recovery, so at full health it can even hard switch in with rocks up. Of course, this means running SpDef instead of PhysDef on your Clefable, making it vulnerable to some of the other threats you’d want it to counter, but this does let it safely counter any Blastoise set. (Doesn’t mean MegaToise isn’t broken, I do think it’s probably worth a suspect, but Unaware Clef is a reliable answer to it)

Ah ok so it depends on the set.
It's to my understanding that 252/252+ spef unaware clefable is very bad outside of checking mega stoise, however, so I still put that in the same category as scarf koko and pyukumuku. Yeah, they work, but you have to run scarf koko or pyukumuku.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Replying to various comments.

1. Aegislash is not remotely overpowered and old how anyone could ever come to the conclusion that he is. He isnt in Galar OU so it doesnt make sense that he is here. The other mons ppl are trying to kill you can understand their argument but calling SubToxic OP and centralizing is kinda silly. He has plenty of countsrplay, most notably significantly decreased bulk, horrenderous speed, no recovery, walled by a significant portion of the tier. I dont even get how someone could seriously say Aegislash is ban worthy lol. Hes a great mon but hes not banworthy.
2. Scarf Weavile and Scarf Tapu Koko being counterplay is not good, period. Lets be 100% real here. Neither is viable outside of checking blast. I have never seen someone actually use scarf weavile (literally darm exists). As for tapu koko the base 95 special attack is mediocre due to terrain nerfs and no specs/electrium z.
3. I will say it again, Zygarde was never OP since he lost Power Construct and I think its best now to stop entertaining the idea, Zygarde is honestly a great asset to this meta. He has tons of checks, and bulky grass types are on every team anyways so i fail to see the correlation. As a bulky setup mon he has no recovery and often needs support for double dance. Hes slow, doesnt hit hard without 2 or 3 boosts, and is predictable. Tons of shit pressure it. He loses hard against both rain and sun and is easily walled by clef, tang, etc. He has to be pivoted into since he lacks recovery. Hes great but hes not even as versatile as lando t. Hes not op. Hes good but not op by any stretch.
4. As much as it pains me to say it, Genesect...*tears up* should be suspected. He was fine before because he was a shitty dynamax but things have changed.
5. Ban Arena Trap before we start seeing Eviolite Trapinch.
6. I still firmly believe that we should unban Floette-Eternal. Might as well get a really cool mon if we're not following cartridge anyways.
7. Mega Blastoise should get a suspect for the reasons stated above. Again, lets be real here, unaware mons are traditionally physically defensive and resorting to 252/252 clef is an omen. Also like i said scarf weavile is fucking ridiculous idc what your argument is. It's speed tier and bulk is too good for shell smash; its likely to survive a water shuriken even at -2.
8. Epstein didn't kill himself

 

[Cabneet]

Replying to various comments.

1. Aegislash is not remotely overpowered and old how anyone could ever come to the conclusion that he is. He isnt in Galar OU so it doesnt make sense that he is here. The other mons ppl are trying to kill you can understand their argument but calling SubToxic OP and centralizing is kinda silly. He has plenty of countsrplay, most notably significantly decreased bulk, horrenderous speed, no recovery, walled by a significant portion of the tier. I dont even get how someone could seriously say Aegislash is ban worthy lol. Hes a great mon but hes not banworthy.
2. Scarf Weavile and Scarf Tapu Koko being counterplay is not good, period. Lets be 100% real here. Neither is viable outside of checking blast. I have never seen someone actually use scarf weavile (literally darm exists). As for tapu koko the base 95 special attack is mediocre due to terrain nerfs and no specs/electrium z.
3. I will say it again, Zygarde was never OP since he lost Power Construct and I think its best now to stop entertaining the idea, Zygarde is honestly a great asset to this meta. He has tons of checks, and bulky grass types are on every team anyways so i fail to see the correlation. As a bulky setup mon he has no recovery and often needs support for double dance. Hes slow, doesnt hit hard without 2 or 3 boosts, and is predictable. Tons of shit pressure it. He loses hard against both rain and sun and is easily walled by clef, tang, etc. He has to be pivoted into since he lacks recovery. Hes great but hes not even as versatile as lando t. Hes not op. Hes good but not op by any stretch.
4. As much as it pains me to say it, Genesect...*tears up* should be suspected. He was fine before because he was a shitty dynamax but things have changed.
5. Ban Arena Trap before we start seeing Eviolite Trapinch.
6. I still firmly believe that we should unban Floette-Eternal. Might as well get a really cool mon if we're not following cartridge anyways.
7. Mega Blastoise should get a suspect for the reasons stated above. Again, lets be real here, unaware mons are traditionally physically defensive and resorting to 252/252 clef is an omen. Also like i said scarf weavile is fucking ridiculous idc what your argument is. It's speed tier and bulk is too good for shell smash; its likely to survive a water shuriken even at -2.
8. Epstein didn't kill himself

Zyg wasnt even OP in gen 7, he was just big cancer.
Whether or not he still is big cancer comes down to how common the glare+setup set ends up being. Thankfully it isnt common at all at the moment.

 

[theotherguytm]

1. Aegislash is not remotely overpowered and old how anyone could ever come to the conclusion that he is. He isnt in Galar OU so it doesnt make sense that he is here. The other mons ppl are trying to kill you can understand their argument but calling SubToxic OP and centralizing is kinda silly. He has plenty of countsrplay, most notably significantly decreased bulk, horrenderous speed, no recovery, walled by a significant portion of the tier. I dont even get how someone could seriously say Aegislash is ban worthy lol. Hes a great mon but hes not banworthy.

... 1.a. He certainly is Galar OU, and he's very high in the VR in spite of Dragapult being on every 3rd team and Hydreigon being everywhere. I don't know where you got this from.
b. Sub Toxic isn't OP. It's the way it lets Aegi uses it to cheese all the mons that check its other sets. Including the "significant proportion of the tier" you mention.
c. The bulk drop is fairly small, the speed is fixed by Autonomise sets and Shadow Sneak. And btw, low speed is often a boon for it since it stays in shield form when taking hits.
d. No recovery has never been an issue for Lando-T or Magearna.
e. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...islash-remains-in-ubers.3536089/#post-6172079 I quote:

I'm all for this! Yes thank you based Haunter. You are very based. ... I'm for this suspect and hope to see it in ou.

#FREEAEGISLASH2015

Sincerely, Omari P

UPDATE AS OF APRIL 23rd : FUCK AEGI I WAS WRONG GET THIS DUDE OUT OF OU OMG.. it's not him personally but his presence makes broken cores possible

And many others like it. You might argue things have changed since then. The King's Shield nerf. More potential checks. But name a mon that deals with Double Dance, Banded, Specs AND Sub Toxic in one set. The first few are handleable. But I think you fail to appreciate how important it is to have checks that beat things reliably (as also shown by your lack of understanding of the Zy ban). Aegi with Toxic available to it is just not a mon you can check from Team Preview. And that's not a good thing. I would be most open to a resuspect once we've cleaned the tier out a bit, so we can clarify exactly how much the nerfs hurt it, but for now the tier needs urgent stabilising.
2. Agree. See also Scarf Dragapult.
3. ... Are we talking about the same mon here???
a. Thousand Arrows alone makes Zy pretty nutty. It has 1 switch-in in the tier-Bulu. The ability to just ignore the type chart on an already powerful offensive typing and have 90 BP on it is so stupid. It means Zy only needs 1 attacking move, and the other 3 slots can be literally anything.
b. Which bulky grasses do you refer to? Only Bulu and Ferro got above the usage threshold, and Ferro is part-steel, so it doesn't like Thousand Arrows at all.
c. Zy doesn't need recovery thanks to its amazing defenses and typing. If it is running a slower build, leftovers+its switch-in Bulu giving it Grassy Terrain is loads of recovery, especially considering it comes in on Volt Switch for free. Oh, and Thousand Arrows being stupid means Rest Talk is actually a thing on this mon.
d. Slow-has the same base speed as Hydreigon and Garm what are you on. Doesn't hit hard-100 base ATK. Are you looking at the same mon as me? Sure, they aren't "broken" stats but they're more than enough for what it has to do.
e. Predictable-This is exactly what he isn't. This is why he is worth the banhammer.
f. Tons of things pressure Mega Kanga too. Shall we unban that? Yes, Zy has offensive checks, but none of them can switch into him. None.
g. Loses to rain and sun-really? And those are everywhere rn. Not. The fact you name Tang when Zy in fact beats it with Toxic is hilarious. And Clef can't switch into Thousand Arrows and Unaware hates Toxic.
h. Lando-T can't beat Grasses and Flying mons without a Z-move.
Read this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...thousand-miles-zygarde-is-now-banned.3645049/
4. Yep. We told you so.
5. Yes.
6. Why? Who really cares? It's probably garbage if we do unban it. We have Lele and Magearna. Besides, Timid Eruption Heatran we could at least say would be a thing in Gen 8. That would not.
7. Yes.

Zyg wasnt even OP in gen 7, he was just big cancer.
Whether or not he still is big cancer comes down to how common the glare+setup set ends up being. Thankfully it isnt common at all at the moment.

You mean people don't run Glare??? Whistles quietly.

 

[Cabneet]

You mean people don't run Glare??? Whistles quietly.

Do they? I've seen more double dance or even straight up banded.
Someone pull up usage stats for Zyg

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Do they? I've seen more double dance or even straight up banded.
Someone pull up usage stats for Zyg

Gotcha.

stats-0

+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 7215                        |
| Avg. weight: 1.0                       |
| Viability Ceiling: 83                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities                              |
| Aura Break 100.000%                    |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items                                  |
| Leftovers 70.769%                      |
| Choice Band  8.288%                    |
| Weakness Policy  4.227%                |
| Groundium Z  2.758%                    |
| Dragonium Z  2.661%                    |
| Life Orb  1.511%                       |
| Sitrus Berry  1.414%                   |
| Figy Berry  1.247%                     |
| Chesto Berry  1.192%                   |
| Earth Plate  0.970%                    |
| Other  4.962%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads                                |
| Jolly:188/168/32/0/8/112 23.812%       |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 20.818%        |
| Adamant:248/252/0/0/8/0  6.098%        |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252  5.045%        |
| Adamant:0/228/0/0/48/232  3.368%       |
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252  3.285%          |
| Other 37.574%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves                                  |
| Thousand Arrows 97.741%                |
| Dragon Dance 71.878%                   |
| Substitute 65.114%                     |
| Coil 51.088%                           |
| Extreme Speed 36.881%                  |
| Glare 27.332%                          |
| Outrage 19.224%                        |
| Toxic  6.875%                          |
| Iron Tail  4.643%                      |
| Other 19.224%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates                              |
| Magearna +32.712%                      |
| Grimmsnarl +28.980%                    |
| Blastoise-Mega +27.416%                |
| Kartana +22.756%                       |
| Mew +22.009%                           |
| Metagross-Mega +6.524%                 |
| Genesect +6.353%                       |
| Mantine +3.325%                        |
| Ditto +2.647%                          |
| Thundurus +2.066%                      |
| Corviknight +1.909%                    |
| Pinsir-Mega +1.494%                    |
+----------------------------------------+
| Checks and Counters                    |
| Greninja 51.058 (68.81±4.44)           |
|     (38.5% KOed / 30.3% switched out)|
+----------------------------------------+

stats-1500

+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 7215                        |
| Avg. weight: 0.803581835588            |
| Viability Ceiling: 83                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities                              |
| Aura Break 100.000%                    |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items                                  |
| Leftovers 71.561%                      |
| Choice Band  9.013%                    |
| Weakness Policy  3.993%                |
| Dragonium Z  2.599%                    |
| Groundium Z  2.594%                    |
| Figy Berry  1.343%                     |
| Sitrus Berry  1.330%                   |
| Life Orb  1.261%                       |
| Chesto Berry  1.108%                   |
| Earth Plate  1.066%                    |
| Other  4.131%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads                                |
| Jolly:188/168/32/0/8/112 25.640%       |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 20.152%        |
| Adamant:248/252/0/0/8/0  6.432%        |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252  5.990%        |
| Adamant:0/228/0/0/48/232  3.525%       |
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252  3.262%          |
| Other 34.999%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves                                  |
| Thousand Arrows 98.929%                |
| Dragon Dance 72.149%                   |
| Substitute 67.264%                     |
| Coil 52.781%                           |
| Extreme Speed 36.454%                  |
| Glare 28.960%                          |
| Outrage 19.333%                        |
| Toxic  6.894%                          |
| Other 17.236%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates                              |
| Magearna +33.007%                      |
| Grimmsnarl +30.216%                    |
| Blastoise-Mega +26.624%                |
| Mew +22.606%                           |
| Kartana +20.889%                       |
| Genesect +5.218%                       |
| Metagross-Mega +4.796%                 |
| Mantine +3.892%                        |
| Thundurus +2.250%                      |
| Corviknight +2.155%                    |
| Pinsir-Mega +1.534%                    |
| Ditto +1.007%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Checks and Counters                    |
| Clefable 50.898 (73.54±5.66)           |
|     (29.1% KOed / 44.4% switched out)|
+----------------------------------------+

stats-1630

 +----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 7215                        |
| Avg. weight: 0.338484435412            |
| Viability Ceiling: 83                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities                              |
| Aura Break 100.000%                    |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items                                  |
| Leftovers 71.351%                      |
| Choice Band 13.375%                    |
| Weakness Policy  4.443%                |
| Dragonium Z  2.095%                    |
| Figy Berry  1.675%                     |
| Groundium Z  1.382%                    |
| Sitrus Berry  1.144%                   |
| Other  4.535%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads                                |
| Jolly:188/168/32/0/8/112 29.060%       |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 15.766%        |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 10.788%        |
| Adamant:0/228/0/0/48/232  4.040%       |
| Adamant:248/252/0/0/8/0  3.364%        |
| Impish:252/0/252/0/4/0  2.876%         |
| Other 34.107%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves                                  |
| Thousand Arrows 99.541%                |
| Dragon Dance 71.019%                   |
| Substitute 69.098%                     |
| Coil 54.783%                           |
| Glare 33.670%                          |
| Extreme Speed 33.171%                  |
| Outrage 20.097%                        |
| Other 18.621%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates                              |
| Magearna +35.500%                      |
| Grimmsnarl +31.247%                    |
| Blastoise-Mega +25.821%                |
| Mew +23.660%                           |
| Kartana +16.373%                       |
| Mantine +6.985%                        |
| Genesect +5.954%                       |
| Corsola-Galar +3.817%                  |
| Thundurus +2.391%                      |
| Corviknight +1.958%                    |
| Pinsir-Mega +1.911%                    |
| Forretress +1.687%                     |
+----------------------------------------+
| Checks and Counters                    |
+----------------------------------------+

stats-1760

+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 7215                        |
| Avg. weight: 0.0523345629654           |
| Viability Ceiling: 83                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities                              |
| Aura Break 100.000%                    |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items                                  |
| Leftovers 73.553%                      |
| Choice Band 15.654%                    |
| Weakness Policy  4.986%                |
| Figy Berry  1.474%                     |
| Other  4.332%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads                                |
| Jolly:188/168/32/0/8/112 32.046%       |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 12.780%        |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 10.374%        |
| Impish:252/0/252/0/4/0  4.969%         |
| Adamant:188/96/0/0/0/224  4.926%       |
| Adamant:188/252/0/0/8/60  4.072%       |
| Other 30.833%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves                                  |
| Thousand Arrows 99.514%                |
| Substitute 71.872%                     |
| Dragon Dance 66.431%                   |
| Coil 61.060%                           |
| Glare 34.351%                          |
| Extreme Speed 26.467%                  |
| Outrage 18.111%                        |
| Toxic  8.908%                          |
| Other 13.286%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates                              |
| Grimmsnarl +33.003%                    |
| Magearna +31.136%                      |
| Mew +24.863%                           |
| Blastoise-Mega +24.848%                |
| Kartana +19.694%                       |
| Genesect +7.736%                       |
| Mantine +7.692%                        |
| Corsola-Galar +6.053%                  |
| Corviknight +4.679%                    |
| Thundurus +2.518%                      |
| Pinsir-Mega +2.417%                    |
| Thundurus-Therian +1.717%              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Checks and Counters                    |
+----------------------------------------+

Yeah looks like most Zygarde ran either DD or Coil (maybe even both) in December. Glare is seen a bit more often further up on the ladder, though.
lol@whichever idiot was running tarrow-less zyg

 

[theotherguytm]

lol@whichever idiot was running tarrow-less zyg

...
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Protect
This is a thing I guess. If you just want to trap and Toxic to death all Zy's checks. Set could be improved, but hey, I just threw this together in 2 mins. If you're that determined to run Arrows, switch it for Protect.
It's the main issue with Zy really. Its standard set looks like this:
Zygarde @ Leftovers/Lum Berry/Z Crystal of choice
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: whatever
Adamant Nature (mostly)
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance/Coil/Toxic/Outrage
- Substitute/Rest/Glare/Dragon Tail
- Glare/Dragon Dance/Coil/Dragon Tail/Rest/Sleep Talk/Thousand Waves/lol whatever
And this isn't counting the Banded set. So how are you supposed to know what's going to happen to your switch-in?