Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Chilli Dewd]

i honestly think that with a screen ho team M-Banette has a niche, as the main issue for banette is to get on the field bc of how frail he is.

Mega Banette is nothing more than a ladder terror, a new player appeal. Sure, it isnt useless as something like say Ramphardos, which hits hard and nothing else. Prankster is a good ability, and the Encore + Poltergeist buffs were huge for it, but imo, they arent enough to make it legitimately viable. Most of the time, you are going to have a neutral exchange eith Mega Banette, which sure, youcould get rid of a big problem like a Iron Cleave after a couple of Swords Dance, or use better pokemon like Mega Scizor for example. But the main issue is that on any situation Mega Banette could be useful, another pokemons tends to do better. You want a wallbreaker? Mega Medicham is a better choice, with Huge Power letting bypass mega Banette's 165 atk, and having 100 speed and even priority to boot in Fake Out and Bullet Punch (and it also has the lil upside of not sacrificing itself to be of use). Do you need a Revenge Killer and for some reason Mega Medicham isnt good enough for you? Ditto can also do Mega Banette's role better, and even Ditto is very, very specific. Why bother sacrifice yourself to take down Gouging Fire when u can become Gouging Fire? And if for whatever reason, you needed Destiny Bond, you could then just use Iron Valiant. Now Iron Valiant doesnt always use Destiny Bond, which makes the move more unpredictable by that factor, but Iron Valiant is still a far better mon than what Mega Banette dreams to be. Iron Valiant can mix and match its moveset to its builder's liking, and it could add Destiny Bond, or Encore, or Knock Off, Taunt, Trick, or any other coverage option. The reason Mega Banette is in OU right now is pure appeal. Think about it? You can take down any dangerous mon with the click of a button with you? +6 Atk Iron Boulder? Destiny Bond. Max Speed Blaziken? Destiny Bond. Torkoal? Destiny Bond. But you know what else is better? Actually beating the tread without dying in the process. For the sake of your health, Do NOT USE MEGA BANETTE, Destiny Bond is bad for your health. If you need help with either you or a friend that has ever had Destiny Bond attempts, please call 1-800-555-DBONDHELP right now and we will gladly be there to help you. Help us with this movement so that together, we can remove the Mega Banette tread an drop it from OU for good.
#DONOTCOMMITDESTINYBOND.

 

[Nashrock]

Mega Banette is nothing more than a ladder terror, a new player appeal.

5.8% usage rate for 1760 elo last month doesn't sound like a "new player" appeal.

But the main issue is that on any situation Mega Banette could be useful, another pokemons tends to do better.

or on the other hand you can compress several roles into one slot

Ditto can also do Mega Banette's role better, and even Ditto is very, very specific.

Try revenge kill tera water pon or smth with bulk set up without encore

And if for whatever reason, you needed Destiny Bond for whatever reason, you could then just use Iron Valiant.

not for whatever reason. Destiny Bond is a MUST on mban and iron valiant simply isn't a substitution. Prankster destiny bond + slower but strong attack guarantees you manage to activate destiny bond or use polt to kill them. Valiant is either one-time only or choice-locked if it wants to bring destiny bond and your opponent can wait for the second turn in most cases cuz non-specs valiant doesn't hit very hard.

When can we stop treating a mon that stays in OU for several months even in high elo as a meme? You don't get to make any judgement on a pokemon if you don't even know what is the viable set. ("use ceru" set has knock off and polt at the same time and no encore + destiny bond as necessity and sd...)

 

[Yxzwilliam]

For Todays YXZ Post. Is The One And ONLY.....

IM THE NEW HOT TOPIC GOT YOUR GIRL POLE DROPPING.

Any who I would like to talk about the OU tier blaze conversation me and a few friends have made.
This Pokémon is not only a black house staple (KFC Gang).
But also, such a great cleaner and sweeper, not adding the access to Firium z .
Putting it in a tier with Kartana is such a disrespectful move. It has shown to be a better cleaner and sweeper than Kartana.
Weavile banded can't cause as much interference as blaze can, due to most the mons pursuit even has a chance to ohko chilly out or tele.
Other UUBL staples aren't as consistent as blaze.



This Pokemon Deserves Respect to OU, doing what some OU mons can't even pull off and it's their role on their respective team.
This guy is the real Pokemon Version of....

 

[Chilli Dewd]

5.8% usage rate for 1760 elo last month doesn't sound like a "new player" appeal.

or on the other hand you can compress several roles into one slot

Try revenge kill tera water pon or smth with bulk set up without encore

not for whatever reason. Destiny Bond is a MUST on mban and iron valiant simply isn't a substitution. Prankster destiny bond + slower but strong attack guarantees you manage to activate destiny bond or use polt to kill them. Valiant is either one-time only or choice-locked if it wants to bring destiny bond and your opponent can wait for the second turn in most cases cuz non-specs valiant doesn't hit very hard.

When can we stop treating a mon that stays in OU for several months even in high elo as a meme? You don't get to make any judgement on a pokemon if you don't even know what is the viable set. ("use ceru" set has knock off and polt at the same time and no encore + destiny bond as necessity and sd...)

Well first, i aggre it may not be a new player appeal, but it is a trend. Second, I rather have a solid mon on a solid role then a medicre mom in multiples, quality over quantity. Third, nice Tera waterpon that might have some grass stab like power whip or horn leech. Fourth, not saying Valiant is better at bonding, but its a better mon overall, the surprise factor can be good, whereas we all know what Mbanette is used for, giving it an unpredicability factor on top of being a better mon. Fifth...

Live by the meme, die by the meme.

 

[about15gals]

Well first, i aggre it may not be a new player appeal, but it is a trend. Second, I rather have a solid mon on a solid role then a medicre mom in multiples, quality over quantity. Third, nice Tera waterpon that might have some grass stab like power whip or horn leech. Fourth, not saying Valiant is better at bonding, but its a better mon overall, the surprise factor can be good, whereas we all know what Mbanette is used for, giving it an unpredicability factor on top of being a better mon. Fifth...
View attachment 587185
Live by the meme, die by the meme.

Just because you know it's coming won't stop it from happening, if anything I'd argue mban's tendency to pack dbond can be an upside if anything. In my experience people tend to play incredibly cautiously around it as they don't want to risk dbond, which you can often use to force nasty situations and hit a lot more mons with knock off. I also think not running it can have merits, as the mere threat of your last moveslot potentially being destiny bond can force a much more passive response to something like sd/polt/encore/filler, keeping the main benefit of destiny bond (disincentivizing damaging moves) while keeping the added flexibility of an additional moveslot. I've found the best success with Mban (and to a lesser extent dbond as a whole) by exploiting the POTENTIAL of you clicking it, which can often grant you free turns. additionally, another benefit mban has over other destiny bond users is prankster. The main reason I think it's so good however, isn't because of the +1 priority on the bond, but the regular priority on your offensive moves. The main reason you'll see me using min speed mban is because dbond's effect goes away when you move, so if you outspeed your opponent with the priority but underspeed them with your offensive move, you can basically get 2x mileage out of each destiny bond, and can even get perma uptime. While I understand its by no means a great pokemon, I do still think it has a usecase and can fit on teams in very niche scenarios or as a buildaround, and writing it off entirely merely based off of its appearance in a youtube video is disengenous at best.

 

[Oculars]

Who remembers a few months ago when people were saying how Darkrai is so "clearly broken" and "uncheckable" that we shouldn't even discuss unbanning it in here. Who remembers even longer back in gen8 natdex when they spent well over a year talking about how its z move sets kill everything and its also a clear uber just for it to be so mid it dropped to UU after we finally tested it. Blaziken was so overhyped in gen8 it started ubers while things like magearna and zygarde were legal.



Learn from the past and apply it so in the future when these guys come up for consideration, dont overhype them on paper, actually hold the suspect and see how they actually play out in the context of a real game. Maybe some of them are broken (roaring moon imo might be) maybe some of them are no better than solid B rank mons.

People might look at darm g and immediately think of it as possibly overpowered but all things considered our megatame is way faster than last time it was around so scarf base 95 isnt some absurd speed tier, its not fast enough to revenge most setup sweepers even while lacking priority. Its also easily scouted and checked even the choice band sets by the most common pivot in the meta and is rediculously suceptible to hazards and helmet chip. The band sets are hard to wall if they click the right buttons but this is no different then other strong choice locked breakers in the exact same speed tier like tapu lele and banded urshifu R . The absence of also having a setup/taunt set thats viable like urshifu and lele have makes gdarm probably even easier to manage in the builder. Yes theres sub BD salac berry sets but these are super easily telegraphed and you can see it coming on team preview 9 times out of 10.

TL:DR its better to actually test down mons then to theorycraft in the calculator and write them off as broken.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Who remembers a few months ago when people were saying how Darkrai is so "clearly broken" and "uncheckable" that we shouldn't even discuss unbanning it in here. Who remembers even longer back in gen8 natdex when they spent well over a year talking about how its z move sets kill everything and its also a clear uber just for it to be so mid it dropped to UU after we finally tested it. Blaziken was so overhyped in gen8 it started ubers while things like magearna and zygarde were legal.



Learn from the past and apply it so in the future when these guys come up for consideration, dont overhype them on paper, actually hold the suspect and see how they actually play out in the context of a real game. Maybe some of them are broken (roaring moon imo might be) maybe some of them are no better than solid B rank mons.

People might look at darm g and immediately think of it as possibly overpowered but all things considered our megatame is way faster than last time it was around so scarf base 95 isnt some absurd speed tier, its not fast enough to revenge most setup sweepers even while lacking priority. Its also easily scouted and checked even the choice band sets by the most common pivot in the meta and is rediculously suceptible to hazards and helmet chip. The band sets are hard to wall if they click the right buttons but this is no different then other strong choice locked breakers in the exact same speed tier like tapu lele and banded urshifu R . The absence of also having a setup/taunt set thats viable like urshifu and lele have makes gdarm probably even easier to manage in the builder. Yes theres sub BD salac berry sets but these are super easily telegraphed and you can see it coming on team preview 9 times out of 10.

TL:DR its better to actually test down mons then to theorycraft in the calculator and write them off as broken.

I think there is a good chance we could try and start suspecting some mons in Ubers that are sadly stuck in limbo. If Darkrai of all mons look balanced in OU, im pretty sure that we could bring other mons to relevancy. Still, we shouldn't get carried away, as there could be some mons that end up broken even to this day. Now, i would like to give my toughts on the mons u mentioned to potentially be tested:


This one doesnt seem to be that much of an issue on paper. The biggest selling point is that its a decently fast wallbreaker with electivire like coverage. 110 speed is basically the new standard in the current metagame, and its likely to stay this way. 145 atk do is a bit scary, especially adding its Tough Claws ability, which boostes all moves that make contact by 1.33. It also has a stellarbulk in 80 hp, 150 def and 110 spdef, which means it isnt an easy mon to wear down. These are all excellent , but it has some flaws. For 1 it doesnt have reliable healing, meaning that it be worned down over the course of a game. However, this can easily be fixed by slotting the good ol Alomomola, which just goes in almost evetything. This could bring a potential problem, as it can be able to heal Mega Metagross constantly, and the two synergize pretty well, Mola can block Fire attacks for Mega Metagross, an Mgross can take on Grass moves aimed at mola, while both having good bulk on their own. Mola does the support and Mgross does the bashing. Another issue with Mmeta is the 4 move syndrome, you want to be able to hit as many mons for super effective or at last neutral damage, meaning against the proper defensive core, it could struggle to hit if it doesnt have the proper coverage. And it can still be hard walled by certain mons, like everyone's favorite physical wall, Dondozo.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 152-180 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
Overall, im still a bit mixed baged about Mega Metagross, but i would for sure like to give it at least a suspect test.


YES, ABSOLUTELY YES, BRING IT SO THAT I CAN DESTROY EVERYONE WITH MY SUN TEAM AND WATCH THE WHOLE WORLD BURN.

Absolutely no bias aside, Roaring Moon is also a mixed bag fo me, as it would be a pretty good mon with or without Sun. It is a solid Dragon Dancer, with 139 Atk and 119 speed, it could outspeed a ton of mons after a single boost. It does have decent options in its moveslot, like Earthquake, Stone Miss, U-turn, Iron Head if u want to hit Fairies, Acrobatics for Booster Energy sets, Fire Fang if u want to use it under sun, and of course Knock Off. Knock Off alone can change the viability of certain mons, just look at Mega Tyranitar, from almost unseen to a solid mon in the meta overall. An sure, it has a quad Fairy weakness, but u know what else it has? Terastalization, so it can change to Tera Steel, no longer fearing fairies nor Toxic, or even Tera Fire to avoid burns. Im not soo confident on this one, if I were to choose between Mega Metagross an Roaring Moon, I think Meta Metagross would be the one I would give the suspect test, but I would give one to Roaring Moon, even if it ends up terrorizing the ladder for 2 weeks.


Well u alteady gave a good explanation on GDarm, which i could agree on. Altough that same mon u mentioned that can wall it canalso support it with Wishpassing, but thats just Mola doing Mola things. It is a very powerfull mon, but it does require good positioning to use effectively, similar to Gen 3 Slacking in a way. Still not sure if its a good idea to leave it around, after all, it is a 140 atk mon with a Choice Band attached, and it could have a Scarf or 2 Bands. Probably the most broken looking of the 3. All 3 of these could use a suspect test, and i would like to see how people go and deal with these guys

 

[Sonar]

Who remembers a few months ago when people were saying how Darkrai is so "clearly broken" and "uncheckable" that we shouldn't even discuss unbanning it in here. Who remembers even longer back in gen8 natdex when they spent well over a year talking about how its z move sets kill everything and its also a clear uber just for it to be so mid it dropped to UU after we finally tested it. Blaziken was so overhyped in gen8 it started ubers while things like magearna and zygarde were legal.



Learn from the past and apply it so in the future when these guys come up for consideration, dont overhype them on paper, actually hold the suspect and see how they actually play out in the context of a real game. Maybe some of them are broken (roaring moon imo might be) maybe some of them are no better than solid B rank mons.

People might look at darm g and immediately think of it as possibly overpowered but all things considered our megatame is way faster than last time it was around so scarf base 95 isnt some absurd speed tier, its not fast enough to revenge most setup sweepers even while lacking priority. Its also easily scouted and checked even the choice band sets by the most common pivot in the meta and is rediculously suceptible to hazards and helmet chip. The band sets are hard to wall if they click the right buttons but this is no different then other strong choice locked breakers in the exact same speed tier like tapu lele and banded urshifu R . The absence of also having a setup/taunt set thats viable like urshifu and lele have makes gdarm probably even easier to manage in the builder. Yes theres sub BD salac berry sets but these are super easily telegraphed and you can see it coming on team preview 9 times out of 10.

TL:DR its better to actually test down mons then to theorycraft in the calculator and write them off as broken.

As someone who joined the meta right when gdarm and megagross were terrorizing the tier : no
fuck that

Megagross was one of the best wallbreakers due to its solid raw power and respectable speed, but what made it so terrifying was not that it could not be walled, it was that those walls fell to either coverage/toxic or hax. Slowbro didn't appreciate Thunder Punch and was vulnerable to Toxic or Paralysis. Tangrowth also hated Toxic and dealing with Meteor Mash's attack raise. etc.

Gdarm was also an absurd breaker that was exceptionally difficult to check by virtue of its sheer power and access to u-turn meant you usually could just click it if you were ever in doubt (while chunking Slowbro). Choice Banded sets just provided too much power for gdarm to be reliably checked. Prior to the ban, one common check was Tapu Fini which while it was more overworked back then due to the threat of Ash-Gren, was still incredibly vulnerable to Earthquakes and couldn't really check Gdarm over the course of a match.

I see you mentioned Alomaloma here, but
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 215-254 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Assuming Alo isn't running HDB, I don't see how it can be considered a reliable switch-in if it literally is more likely to die than survive while rocks are up.

I took a break when gen 9 started so can't speak much for roaring moon, but for the other 2, no, absolutely not

 

[Ineros]

As someone who joined the meta right when gdarm and megagross were terrorizing the tier : no
fuck that

Megagross was one of the best wallbreakers due to its solid raw power and respectable speed, but what made it so terrifying was not that it could not be walled, it was that those walls fell to either coverage/toxic or hax. Slowbro didn't appreciate Thunder Punch and was vulnerable to Toxic or Paralysis. Tangrowth also hated Toxic and dealing with Meteor Mash's attack raise. etc.

Gdarm was also an absurd breaker that was exceptionally difficult to check by virtue of its sheer power and access to u-turn meant you usually could just click it if you were ever in doubt (while chunking Slowbro). Choice Banded sets just provided too much power for gdarm to be reliably checked. Prior to the ban, one common check was Tapu Fini which while it was more overworked back then due to the threat of Ash-Gren, was still incredibly vulnerable to Earthquakes and couldn't really check Gdarm over the course of a match.

I see you mentioned Alomaloma here, but
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 215-254 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Assuming Alo isn't running HDB, I don't see how it can be considered a reliable switch-in if it literally is more likely to die than survive while rocks are up.

I took a break when gen 9 started so can't speak much for roaring moon, but for the other 2, no, absolutely not

Physdef Mola isn’t real asw unless ur running like some stall thing ig and yeah gdarm and mmeta are completely broken. I gotta love when one mon breaks through everything with the funny button which is Tera (there are no switchins to 140 atk double choice banded good offensive type and coverage mon) and can be just suddenly fast with scarf and the other mon which can run basically anything it wants to insta delete its checks from the game and still be a viable mon (it was buffed in dlc2 and has busted stats, totally not broken!)

 

[1234hjkl]

I think all except Moon would be fine in NDOU. G-Darm is in way faster and more hazard-centric meta, I can't see it pulling the same shenanigans of before were it either packed a Band/Scarf and went wild, it would need boots to not die to the constant hazard vomit Gen 9 metas are and like Oculars said Scarfed 95 ain't enough in a meta were the every team must pack something to stop being Booster-Swept.

M-Meta to me is a Darkrai situation, looks scary on paper but on pratice is just good rather than broken. The metagame is very hostile to it, 110 speed is just average rather than being fast, it's good bulk is offset by the fact Steel/Psychic is a mediocre defensive type in this meta and every team will have a way to deal good damage on it, also I think people are underselling it's 4MSS a bit too much, It wants stabs, priority to be able to handle fast mons like Boulder and Valiant, coverage to be able to hit Tusk/Ting-Lu/Lando/Mola/Thorn/Tran/Garga/Zap/Glowking/Zama-H, etc, last gen meta it could get away with it since the meta was slower and overall more balance-defensive meta, this one offense is in full focus and teams were forced to adapt to handle strong and fast threads like the Paradox mons, Zama-H, Torn-T, Ogerpon, Volcarona, etc. I can see it as a very good mon, but not broken.

R.Moon I believe still broken. Before DLC I could see it in OU but DLC1 and beyond, Moon is a no. It still does the same thing it did to get it banned in vanilla OU were it SetUp-Tera-Sweeps (Unless you have a donzo). It can work inside and outside of Sun and that's just the Tera-Sweeper, we didn't started on more niche sets like Band sets with Nuclear Knock-Off's, scarf set's for speed control or the ones with DD-Loaded Dice Scale Shot and let's not get started when people start to play around with Z-Moves.

TL/DR: M-Meta and GDarm are worth a suspect, our meta is vast different of the ones they got banned, R.Moon got buffed and if was suspect worthy before, it sure ain't getting down soon.

 

[Kyo]

Mega Metagross discussion has been floating around for a while now and is pretty controversial iirc it did not have much support for an unban when surveyed. It's very much a low priority in our tiering right now. GDarm is not up for consideration at this time, wouldn't get your hopes up for that one

 

[Kyo]

Anything on Roaring Moon's status in the community right now?

I can say with near certainty that Moon will get a re-suspect but no confirmation on what that timeline will be. After Darkrai is decided and the meta settles a bit more we will want to see first if anything needs suspected out of the tier. As far as new DLC mons go it looks unlikely that any will be banned besides the Terapagos quickban. Boulder scored the highest on the survey but it was only a 2.58/5 average. We're going to keep an eye on the usual Wellspring, Lele, Valiant mostly and make sure Boulder remains a healthy presence. Getting access to knock off as a huge buff really put Roaring Moon in an awkward position where we previously felt it could be unbanned pretty safely, we now have to take a more cautious approach to introduce it back to the tier via suspect only once everything feels more or less stable.

 

[Oculars]

I see you mentioned Alomaloma here, but
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 215-254 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Assuming Alo isn't running HDB, I don't see how it can be considered a reliable switch-in if it literally is more likely to die than survive while rocks are up.

I took a break when gen 9 started so can't speak much for roaring moon, but for the other 2, no, absolutely not

ye it scouts the set and once you see banded (you know gdarm is choice locked) you go into your flying/levitate mon and get a free pivot off vs it or set rocks. Mola may be 2hko'd by eq but a ground move locked mon is very exploitable by common cores in the tier whether its mola and glisc or mola and pdef lando with uturn

 

[Patar136]

I'm gonna finally say it. This is gonna cause people to hate me. They will say I am uneducated and dumb. But I'm doing it anyway. I have a mon we should suspect test.



Yep. My credibility went out the window. If you wanna ignore me from this point forward go ahead and skip to the end. But for those who wanna engage with me, let's attempt to explore why this might, MIGHT, not be the end of days as we know it.

Yes, this guy is wicked fast. It's not called Deoxys Speed for nothing. It outspeeds a lot of the metagame. It's faster than Darkrai for crying out loud. But first off all, we gotta consider a couple things. For one, if it actually does invest in its speed to become a fast threat in the metagame that actually runs against the things you would want it to outrun, that means that it can't invest fully in either its offenses without compromising its bulk and vice versa. And if it doesn't invest in max speed, it will lose to a Deoxys that does invest in max speed. Furthermore, I would actually argue that it provides, hear me out, defensive utility. It's a good answer to stuff like Scarf Tapu Lele and Scarf Kartana since it can switch in on specific attacks like Psychic or Secret Sword and then force them out, with other scarfers being scared out too. And even with its blazing speed, in this era of booster energy and Tapu Koko being everywhere, the new Iron Boulder, the ever present Iron Valiant and even the rarer Iron Moth (who you would think you outspeed) all actually outrun you and can threaten to straight up eliminate you due to Deoxys Speed's frailty.

What about offensively you ask? Surely this thing is too much offensively with its special sets and with Tapu Lele's terrain everywhere, which even stops priority attacks (what are otherwise a great way to limit Deoxys Speed) except Rillaboom who destroys you. Well, Deoxys Speed is certainly stellar at this, nobody would say otherwise, there are some things to consider. For one, while 95 offenses are fine for it, Nasty Plot is needed to make this thing work as a true cleaner and that is a turn you need to secure safely. Deoxys Speed doesn't exactly switch into much and you only do this in emergency situations that can backfire. (Sure, you can switch into a Kartana's Secret Sword but what happens if it uses Knock Off, or a Scarf Tapu Lele that uses Moonblast, nevermind Shadow Ball.... you get crippled at the very least.) It also hates getting statused even when it uses taunt to block thunder wave or the like. You knock off a Zapdos only to get paralyzed by Static, for example. You don't have boots and get hit by toxic spikes as another example. Special sets are certainly strong to be sure, and expanding force is a hell of an offensive threat against unprepared teams. But lets stop and think. There isn't exactly a shortage of special checks that can reasonably handle Deoxys. What about physical sets? You know what it gets to boost its attack?..... Power Up Punch. Yeah, good luck sweeping with that amazing choice. You don't even get Bulk Up. And your physical coverage is the elemental punches, knock off and maybe extremespeed. Oh and because you don't have close combat you gotta settle for Superpower. Deoxys Speed probably works best on screens teams which love setting screens to allow for a nasty plot sweep on an HO team. And that could in fact be too much but with its frailty it's not exactly like you can't break it with good pressure. Is it really gonna run Iron Defense to avoid a knock off death? Congrats, you did that and now you lost a move slot.

In terms of hazard control, this is where I admit that it does a very good job. Other than Prankster Grimmsnarl and unevolved Sableye with Taunt, there isn't a ton that can stop Deoxys from getting hazards up quickly as magic bouncers (aside from Mega Sableye) don't like Knock Off, although Hatterene probably does a decent job at it (though it should watch for Skill Swap.) It can get Stealth Rock on the field reliably and even Spikes and/or screens with taunt to boot. But speaking of boots, many things run Heavy Duty Boots and/or defog to make Deoxys work go to waste. And being a dedicated lead you can see in team preview will be something a well prepared player will be able to deal with, or at least account for.

Now look, I am NOT saying Deoxys Speed is a bad Pokemon. That would be ridiculous. But I don't think it would be unmanageable. It would just be a very good Pokemon and would be a neat addition to the metagame. Could it be too much? Absolutely, and if so, we ban it with a quick ban or something. But if we are letting Darkrai run around OU, and that seems to be okay so far, testing Deoxys Speed doesn't seem unreasonable.

TL;DR Deoxys Speed would be a great Pokemon but wouldn't be overwhelming and we should consider a suspect test.

 

[Moyashi]

I'm gonna finally say it. This is gonna cause people to hate me. They will say I am uneducated and dumb. But I'm doing it anyway. I have a mon we should suspect test.



Yep. My credibility went out the window. If you wanna ignore me from this point forward go ahead and skip to the end. But for those who wanna engage with me, let's attempt to explore why this might, MIGHT, not be the end of days as we know it.

Yes, this guy is wicked fast. It's not called Deoxys Speed for nothing. It outspeeds a lot of the metagame. It's faster than Darkrai for crying out loud. But first off all, we gotta consider a couple things. For one, if it actually does invest in its speed to become a fast threat in the metagame that actually runs against the things you would want it to outrun, that means that it can't invest fully in either its offenses without compromising its bulk and vice versa. And if it doesn't invest in max speed, it will lose to a Deoxys that does invest in max speed. Furthermore, I would actually argue that it provides, hear me out, defensive utility. It's a good answer to stuff like Scarf Tapu Lele and Scarf Kartana since it can switch in on specific attacks like Psychic or Secret Sword and then force them out, with other scarfers being scared out too. And even with its blazing speed, in this era of booster energy and Tapu Koko being everywhere, the new Iron Boulder, the ever present Iron Valiant and even the rarer Iron Moth (who you would think you outspeed) all actually outrun you and can threaten to straight up eliminate you due to Deoxys Speed's frailty.

What about offensively you ask? Surely this thing is too much offensively with its special sets and with Tapu Lele's terrain everywhere, which even stops priority attacks (what are otherwise a great way to limit Deoxys Speed) except Rillaboom who destroys you. Well, Deoxys Speed is certainly stellar at this, nobody would say otherwise, there are some things to consider. For one, while 95 offenses are fine for it, Nasty Plot is needed to make this thing work as a true cleaner and that is a turn you need to secure safely. Deoxys Speed doesn't exactly switch into much and you only do this in emergency situations that can backfire. (Sure, you can switch into a Kartana's Secret Sword but what happens if it uses Knock Off, or a Scarf Tapu Lele that uses Moonblast, nevermind Shadow Ball.... you get crippled at the very least.) It also hates getting statused even when it uses taunt to block thunder wave or the like. You knock off a Zapdos only to get paralyzed by Static, for example. You don't have boots and get hit by toxic spikes as another example. Special sets are certainly strong to be sure, and expanding force is a hell of an offensive threat against unprepared teams. But lets stop and think. There isn't exactly a shortage of special checks that can reasonably handle Deoxys. What about physical sets? You know what it gets to boost its attack?..... Power Up Punch. Yeah, good luck sweeping with that amazing choice. You don't even get Bulk Up. And your physical coverage is the elemental punches, knock off and maybe extremespeed. Oh and because you don't have close combat you gotta settle for Superpower. Deoxys Speed probably works best on screens teams which love setting screens to allow for a nasty plot sweep on an HO team. And that could in fact be too much but with its frailty it's not exactly like you can't break it with good pressure. Is it really gonna run Iron Defense to avoid a knock off death? Congrats, you did that and now you lost a move slot.

In terms of hazard control, this is where I admit that it does a very good job. Other than Prankster Grimmsnarl and unevolved Sableye with Taunt, there isn't a ton that can stop Deoxys from getting hazards up quickly as magic bouncers (aside from Mega Sableye) don't like Knock Off, although Hatterene probably does a decent job at it (though it should watch for Skill Swap.) It can get Stealth Rock on the field reliably and even Spikes and/or screens with taunt to boot. But speaking of boots, many things run Heavy Duty Boots and/or defog to make Deoxys work go to waste. And being a dedicated lead you can see in team preview will be something a well prepared player will be able to deal with, or at least account for.

Now look, I am NOT saying Deoxys Speed is a bad Pokemon. That would be ridiculous. But I don't think it would be unmanageable. It would just be a very good Pokemon and would be a neat addition to the metagame. Could it be too much? Absolutely, and if so, we ban it with a quick ban or something. But if we are letting Darkrai run around OU, and that seems to be okay so far, testing Deoxys Speed doesn't seem unreasonable.

TL;DR Deoxys Speed would be a great Pokemon but wouldn't be overwhelming and we should consider a suspect test.

how about we stop suggesting drops and instead focus on improving our metagame? The last thing we need is a hazard setter that does its job so well and warps that part of the game around it. No thanks.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

So i see mgross being the centre pf the conversation, i am clearly saying that it would be great here. dondozo sure hard checks it, as it checks anything with less than 160 atk And 100 spa but mgross is mmawile but faster And bulkier. Its recent access to koff may be the rising of urility sets with cosmic power And / or stealthrock, but also the Add of psyfangs to patch the 10% aka 99% chance of miss zen headbutt. stone edge Even lets it threaten moltres so this gen's mgross is Even stronger than Last gen's, And yet Still deserves a suspect in, just to see if people Will be running totally new mons in the meta like ironpress registeel to actually counter it. Bur mgross has that 4MSS And While mtrmash And psyfangs are obvious, stone edge, koff, tpunch, icepunch And eq are Still Very interesting moves on it. Sure, it'll be toptier or Even broken if u Add Good teammates to it but hEY its theorising on paper And Well why not EVEN THO I'd HATE see DONDOZO outbreak on ladder.

Gdarm is a funny pokemon that sadly has less than 160atk so is walled by dozo but it kinda hits everything else. It has no viable setup since it is too frail to activate zen mode w/o dying but is locked into a move if not zen mode, is too slow And frail to be Really threatening with band so ill only be talking abt Scarf. Well, no real switchin, And it's an issue, Except if u can (you do) predict the move. okay, it's not reliable against newbies that dont know their type chart, nor against experienced players, but it's Still a Good tool. And hey, it's not urshifu, so you can protect with like alomomola to scout The move it's using And, in the case of alomomola, take for example a gdarm that uses U-turn. U use protect so u know it's gonna U-turn next turn. U can :
1: use wish. U have a free turn, you can use it, but gdarm can enter a threat to alomomola so maybe not always the best option.
2: flip turn. U get momentum avantage And are guaranteed so coz you're being outsped. So it does have counterplay. imo it is less broken than mgross but Still strong against teams lacking of a Good answer or revenge killer (but it is Ice type So anyways) while being hyped at the start, it'll quickly be relegated As It Is Just not As Good As Scarf lele. another metagame improvement would be Considering a garganacl sus. With tera, the rock can become water, fairy And that's Very Very annoying so a sus would be great ngl

 

[Chilli Dewd]

how about we stop suggesting drops and instead focus on improving our metagame?

Unban Eleki. Here is another sentence so it isnt a one liner.

 

[Sonar]

Physdef Mola isn’t real asw unless ur running like some stall thing ig and yeah gdarm and mmeta are completely broken. I gotta love when one mon breaks through everything with the funny button which is Tera (there are no switchins to 140 atk double choice banded good offensive type and coverage mon) and can be just suddenly fast with scarf and the other mon which can run basically anything it wants to insta delete its checks from the game and still be a viable mon (it was buffed in dlc2 and has busted stats, totally not broken!)

Yeah i know mola isn't always Phys but it was just to show even physical sets don't reliably check it. As for double tera, yeah lmao forgot.

I think all except Moon would be fine in NDOU. G-Darm is in way faster and more hazard-centric meta, I can't see it pulling the same shenanigans of before were it either packed a Band/Scarf and went wild, it would need boots to not die to the constant hazard vomit Gen 9 metas are and like Oculars said Scarfed 95 ain't enough in a meta were the every team must pack something to stop being Booster-Swept.

M-Meta to me is a Darkrai situation, looks scary on paper but on pratice is just good rather than broken. The metagame is very hostile to it, 110 speed is just average rather than being fast, it's good bulk is offset by the fact Steel/Psychic is a mediocre defensive type in this meta and every team will have a way to deal good damage on it, also I think people are underselling it's 4MSS a bit too much, It wants stabs, priority to be able to handle fast mons like Boulder and Valiant, coverage to be able to hit Tusk/Ting-Lu/Lando/Mola/Thorn/Tran/Garga/Zap/Glowking/Zama-H, etc, last gen meta it could get away with it since the meta was slower and overall more balance-defensive meta, this one offense is in full focus and teams were forced to adapt to handle strong and fast threads like the Paradox mons, Zama-H, Torn-T, Ogerpon, Volcarona, etc. I can see it as a very good mon, but not broken.

R.Moon I believe still broken. Before DLC I could see it in OU but DLC1 and beyond, Moon is a no. It still does the same thing it did to get it banned in vanilla OU were it SetUp-Tera-Sweeps (Unless you have a donzo). It can work inside and outside of Sun and that's just the Tera-Sweeper, we didn't started on more niche sets like Band sets with Nuclear Knock-Off's, scarf set's for speed control or the ones with DD-Loaded Dice Scale Shot and let's not get started when people start to play around with Z-Moves.

TL/DR: M-Meta and GDarm are worth a suspect, our meta is vast different of the ones they got banned, R.Moon got buffed and if was suspect worthy before, it sure ain't getting down soon.

As I said, I played back when megagross was a thing and can say for absolute certaintly, it will still be able to hax past its checks as well as having Knock Off as a new option to cripple switchins.
It doesn't have 4mss, I've said this millions of times, having lots of great options !=4mss. 4Mss means it's unable to fulfill its role effectively due to limited slots. Megagross works fine with just 3 moves (Stabs + Tpunch) and has 8 million options for the 4th. The fact its speed tier is less valuable isn't even that bad given it's still insane to offensively check it due to its bulk

252 Atk Iron Boulder Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 146-172 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Boulder: 384-452 (119.6 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO\

Edit : Upon talking more in the Nat Dex room on showdown, I discovered it gained access to Heavy Slam, which is considerably more threatening than meteor mash, so it now can also go for a more reliable, general way to break or use the less optimal Meteor Mash to have the chance to hax many of its checks, like it does before.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

But yeah im terms of balancing the metagame, we do have some mons under the radar. These include; Iron Boulder, Iron Valiant, Tapu Lele, Ogerpon Wellspring ans I think Gouging Fire if im not mistaking. Most of the issues with all of these is that they can hard to out offense, and if lacking a proper answer, it can be hard to wall as well. Gfire might be the slowest of the bunch, but it does have the most bulk, allowing it to grab a couple of DD's and get to sweep from there, however it is mainly seen as a terror in Sun teams, which while good, isnt the only archetype in the metagame. And Boulder being the fastest while having solid atk makes it a tread right of the bat if not able to check it properly, meaning unless u have options like Lando-T, Corviknight, Mega Scizor etc. And this is imo the real issue, not that they are impossible to counter, but the fact that u have to consider all of these into account when teambuilding. For example you preped your team so that it doesnt lose to Tapu Lele, but then loses to Ogerpon Wellspring. Say u then prep for Wellspring, but then you struggle vs Iron Valiant. And then there is other mons like Darkrai, Gliscor, Zamazenta, Raging Bolt, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Lopunny, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Mega Medicham and more, and you put these as well, then there is just a ton of mons that could all be a tread and eventually a team might struggle with one or two of these. Now this isnt uncommon per say, where a team might struggle vs a mon, since u cant truly check everything, but when you add in the fact the overall powercreep, Terastalization and the power of these mons individually, then there could be a good reason NOT to unban a mon anytime soon. Not saying we shouldn't try do, but I think a lot of players just want to see a previous mon stuck on limbo in Ubers and see how it would perform in the standard metagame. It might not be broken, but it then adds another layer to worry about when teambuilding.

 

[Patar136]

This thing still kicks ass. Raging Bolt doesn't quite have the overwhelming presence that other new threats have but it does offer some very cool perks. From practice, the biggest things that hold back Raging Bolt are Clodsire, Blissey (and Chansey), Ferrothorn and other ground types tend to be annoyances like Great Tusk, Gliscor and Landorus. However, Raging Bolt also matches up well against other key threats in the metagame including Waterpon, Alomomola (especially this pink fish), Tornadus, Corviknight (and Skarmory for that matter), Moltres, Charizard, Mega Scizor, Pelipper, Dondozo, most electric types (especially Zapdos) and more. And the set I wanna talk about is this one.

Raging Bolt @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ice/Fire
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderclap
- Tera Blast
- Substitute
- Dragon Pulse/Thunderbolt/Draco Meteor

Substitute Raging Bolt is definitely my favorite set on this dinosaur. For one, it allows you to punish switching and it can allow you to hone in on things that think they can deal with you like Tapu Lele, Gliscor, Landorus, Serperior and what have you, even Tapu Koko who can be hurt by Tera Blast. Thunderclap is a beautiful tool that pairs well with Substitute as well, allowing you to take out things that try to eliminate your substitute while Dragon coverage usually fries everything else. While Tera Ice is my go to tera to destroy ground types during crucial turns, Tera Fire is worth considering just to really fry Scizor and make Ferrothorn a non issue. Usually dragon coverage is enough to chip down grounds anyway. This set is not designed to sweep, though it can on occasion. In my opinion the best way to use bolt is as a wallbreaker and check to offensive teams, forcing them to sacrifice a Pokemon and giving you an equalizing tool.

In general, I think this thing has a place in OU since it matches up well against a lot of stuff. Maybe it will drop to UU but this could be another UUBL candidate. Substitute works well and I wanna highlight it for more to use and customize.

 

[Kyo]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-sample-teams.3714863/

Samples updated! Go check em out

 

[Oculars]

Finally some decent samples, council has learned what offense is. ggs proud of you boys.

 

[Ineros]

Happy that my team is on samples! It’s a dream come true for me. On another note, there are some other fun looking teams like the mtar fat balance and the Serp offense that look very interesting. Glowking on offense is a very neat idea (as fsight support can help offense greatly and helps out moth and zama) and mtar is cool on fat balance because it can act as the team’s lele check (combined with pex) without sacrificing spikes support in Skarm and helps suit trap lele torn and offensive zap for this team. Koko is also nice against raging bolt and waters like Mola and wash and gives a nice second check into np torn and deals with Corv and Skarm. Of course the other samples are very nice as well but these ones piqued my interest the most.

edit: I didn’t notice this but both were sealoo’s teams so very nice teams to him. If I were to pick another team from a different person, it would be the Mlati and ival balance by ChrisPbacon. Mlati is an interesting mon as it can be a good wincon but is trapped by suit mtar and Weav; Ival and clef help with that nicely. Also some very cool and unique stuff that can probably actually work like shed shell pex and tricky barb clef.

 

[Kyo]

If you haven't heard, Darkrai is now legal. How do yall feel? Are we coping or are we hoping? also drop some cool sets so i can stop using specs

edit: my 666th post which feels weirdly appropriate here

 

[Oculars]

also drop some cool sets so i can stop using specs

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot - Dark Pulse - Focus Blast - Sludge Bomb

plot up on things then rain ohkos, tera poison if they try and revenge kill you with a faster fairy/fighting alternatively drop lorb for fightinium Z if your aim with focus blast isnt as good as mine.