Non-VGC Doubles Metagame

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Since 2v2's introduction in Gen 3 it has, for whatever reason, proven rather unpopular, not even having a reliable simulator to play it on (Netbattle was far from reliable) for most of Gen 4. Even with the introduction of Pokemon Online it has taken a backseat to standard OU and, surprisingly, VGC. I wanna change that.

So, what is standard Doubles? Basically, it is double battles with six pokemon and using standard clauses. Generally it is a faster paced metagame than singles, with Stall being less viable and being more offensive (although that's not to say that it's pure offense, defense is still important!). In addition, field effects such as Trick Room, Rain, Sun, etc are more common, and some pokemon find new niches (such as Cherrim) while others fall out of favor (such as Forretress). In addition to these things, doubles emphasizes synergy in teambuilding more--or, perhaps it would be better say, differently--than singles; in doubles, you have to consider what your pokemon can do together when on the field together, how they support each other and handle what the other cannot, and most importantly making sure they do not hinder each other (having your Garchomp EQ with your Heatran on the field, etc).

Now some of you may be wondering why bother with this when we have VGC, which has proven to be a playable doubles metagame and is generally the preferred format. I contend that it is indeed worth considering in light of VGC for the following reasons:

  • Ability to self-regulate. VGC must strictly adhere to the ruleset that TPCi provides, no matter how restrictive, and the community has no say in the matter. Standard doubles, in contrast, allows for the community to test the metagame and propose any sort of clauses, bans, or removal of such in order to achieve an ideal metagame. For example, in VGC there is no choice but to deal with Spore spam, whereas in standard if we find this to be unhealthy for the metagame we are free to enact Sleep Clause. So on and so forth.
  • Availability of Pokemon. This is a big one here. VGC, our only doubles metagame with 5th gen mechanics, arbitrarily disallows the use of over 493 pokemon. Naturally, this unnecessarily restricts the variety of pokemon and strategies in the metagame, and in a sense is counterproductive given the non-insignificant number of pre-Unova pokemon who receive moves and abilities designed specifically for double battles.
  • Just because VGC exists doesn't mean this doesn't deserve to exist. Some people have argued that a standard doubles metagame is useless as we already have VGC. While VGC is popular, this is like saying that no one should bother with Ubers because we have standard OU that plays fine, or that no one should bother with UU because we have LC and that plays fine. Just because there is another metagame that has some similarities does not mean there cannot be another metagame somewhat like it.


Anyway, aside from that, actual discussion. I'm really interested in After You, which lets a slower pokemon move immediately afterwards. Its fastest user is Cinccino with 115 base speed (and slowest is Snorlax at base 30 but you'd only be able to use it in TR and honestly if you're using something that needs After You in TR you're probably doing something wrong), so it seems like it could be viable. Perhaps we'll see a lot more pokemon with mediocre speed such as Chandelure who are too slow for most situations but too fast for TR?
 
I hope two things will happen with this metagame:

- Bans aren't c/ped from the singles metagame. Some of them would turn out to be pretty nonsensical in doubles, like Lati@s and Salamence were in gen 4.

- Dark Void is banned. Immediately. Idgaf about sleep clause so much as removing the threat of getting both Pokemon put to sleep at once.
 
Yes, it would fantastic if we could have a suspect testing process for the doubles metagame, but of course we would need a lot of interest for that. I would love to start with a game with absolutely no bans and work from there but I have no idea if that would be feasible (I mean I know it's early in the game but...).

Dark Void is a funny one. Personally I think it should be banned simply to best simulate cartridge sleep clause (or lack thereof). If you sleep two pokes in battle, that's an automatic forfeit on Wi-Fi. I mean I can't see how we could adequately simulate this move and sleep clause when it inherently attempts to violate sleep clause. No other sleep move does that. If using Dark Void is (possibly) an instant lost on Wi-Fi, why even bother allowing it if we wanna simulate Wi-Fi?

Of course this all depends on whether or not we want sleep clause (hint: we do).
 

breh

強いだね
potential banlist?:
Mewtwo
Ho-oh
Lugia
Groudon
Kyogre
Darkrai (Dark Void unbanned)
Rayquaza
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina A
Giratina O
Arceus
Reshiram
Zekrom

Drizzle/Drought bans should be considered, as should bans of deoxyses

Otherwise looks fine. Hail Kyurem should be fun :)
 
I am really in favor of this. I can't play doubles because there's never anyone to play against! Also a triples metagame would be good.

The only team I've used so far is a Discharge team, which got buffs with Lightningrod and Rechargeable Battery.
 
I would actually like to see a standard doubz. I've been wanting to make a team for it for a long time and I actually think it'd be much more fun. Just no Dark Void. God help you if you put dark void on there.
 
I'd love to see this form - long have I waited for double battles. If we could get a standard doubles up and running, that'd be great. I'd actually ladder pretty hard to be a voter for this, and I like that Doubles has a lot more wiggle room in terms of creativity. :)
 

Destiny Warrior

also known as Darkwing_Duck
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I think you should remove the word 'Standard' from the title: its been pretty decisively decided(lame puns GO) that each year we will only be following VGC.

On a more related note, I'm interested how the likes of ZapChomp will fare in Gen 5 Doubles.
 
PO's server does currently support Doubles, perhaps anyone very interested should take a look at that to try the meta out? Both OU and DW variants. Secondly, just because we follow VGC does not mean that should be referred to as Standard doubles - if anything standard should relate to standard singles, and the processes by which we formed a metagame there. In any case, if smogon deems the effort of setting up said tiers not worth the effort, then perhaps a Project NU style site could be set up for doubles and/or triples even?

Anyway, I agree with above that Dark Void does not need to be banned - as if sleep clause is implemented then any person using it essentially forfeits the battle. Sleep clause I think is utterly necessary, and probably Evasion and OHKO too though these could be open for debate. As an initial banlist perhaps we should start with a base 670 stats and up ban, eliminating the incredibly powerful ubers but not Kyurem and down. To be honest, I can't see weathers proving broken in doubles since they balance each other out so well and there are a lot of variables that counteract them fairly well if you build a decent team.

Hail seems like it'd prove perhaps even broken with the addition of Kyurem, which is cool, and Rain would be neutered by the prevelance of water absorbers in doubles. Sand looks to be fairly devastating given the addition of Balloon, letting double EQs be fired off without consequence. Sun has the most gimmicky advantage in Cherrim, which seems like it'd be underwhelming.
 
I would love to see this happen. Doubles is more popular in local tournaments and friendlies, partly because it's faster paced, and is what I almost exclusively play. I've heard many people argue the legitimacy of Doubles, saying it is less strategic and overly aggressive, but I completely disagree. Singles is Checkers, Doubles is Chess. Things that are staples in the singles metagame, like switching, stat-boosting, and setting up hazards, are downright dangerous in doubles. What it lacks in set-up strategies and stalling it gains in harder, but more rewarding prediction and team preparation.

It seems Gamefreak has actually been looking at VGCs and attempting to fix or at least provide counters to some of the more cheap doubles strategies. This generation they fixed a slightly broken aspect of weather teams in doubles (particularly with Drizzle) where Swift Swim, and other weather speed boosting abilities, don't activate until the turn after Rain has been initiated. Imagine you've got Excadrill outran (and therefore owned) and then your opponent switches the Hippow in just activate Exca's speed boost and it murders whatever counter you thought you had. They've also introduced Wide Guard (presumably to counter ZapChomp style combos) and Fast Guard (a way to counter Fake Out without using Protect on both mons?). They also nerfed Explosion, which was scary good in Doubles. Gamefreak and Nintendo have consistently chosen it as their battle style of choice, why have we shunned it for so long?

Dark Void should be banned right off the bat. TR+Lv.1 Smeargle @ Focus Sash w/ Dark Void can literally put entire teams to sleep and is can be a pain to take down without a major amount of luck or an extremely advantageous situation.
 
As for suspect testing, I'm going to recommend Follow Me and Rage Powder just because it's almost too easy to have a Togekiss or Clefable use Follow Me and then Belly Drum or some other epic stat boosting move on your other Pokemon. Or maybe even just Belly Drum, it is key in some scary doubles strategies (Heal Beam + Belly Drum, 2009's VGC winner used a Psych Up Metagross with Belly Drum Snorlax). Dark Void should definitely be banned. If Trick Room is up, Lv.1 Sashed Smeargle with Dark Void gets ridiculous. It takes an extremely advantageous situation to get rid of him.
Follow Me and Anger Powder are excellent yes, but surely in doubles they can be got around by using powerful spread moves, since you cannot use Follow Me, Stat up and Wide Guard in the same turn? In triples maybe, but I don't quite see it being broken in doubles. Not to mention that most of the Follow Me mons aren't exactly the bulkiest things on the planet, and risk being OHKOd by certain things even with investment.

EDIT: Also, the only time you can guarantee both users of said combo will be on the field is in the lead matchup - and Fake Out now gets the same priority as Follow Me, letting flinchers prevent this strategy from using Sashes to help it as well. If using protect and maybe a sash to prevent Fake outing and OHKOs, the boosting move user's coverage and power will be significantly lower, balancing the strategy out.

Just cos we're talking about Sleep Clause's mechanics - the one we have in singles, or want at least if it's not implemented on PO, I thought was one that allowed you to use Sleep moves after one mon was slept already, but would mean you lost if you did so? Using Dark Void would result in the same forfeit, effectively banning it but not technically lol. Not much difference, but still.

EDIT2: Here's Phil's words on the subject from PR at the start of 5th Gen about which metas were to be supported officialy: "Doubles, Triples, and Rotation Battles are not going to initially be available for practicality reasons listed above, but they will come once we are ready to set them up."
 
And then there's the 2 trainers vs. 2 trainers metagame...whatever. I really doubt people will play that.

For Sleep Clause, we could just have Dark Void activate on the pokemon that would normally be affected first, then fail on the next (I think it isn't based on speed anymore).
 
I've always wanted to have a standard doubles metagame on hand, but as said, it's hard to play since few people play it - which is ironic considering the sheer amount of creativity and interesting things you can do with it.

I recently tried out Echo Voice spam, and it was quite fun.
 
I think you should remove the word 'Standard' from the title: its been pretty decisively decided(lame puns GO) that each year we will only be following VGC.
The reason I said "standard" is that I wished to draw a comparision to singles standard metagame, OU and self-regulated rather than determined by an outside entity with arbitrary rules we cannot test. The only reasons I can think of why we wouldn't support non-VGC doubles are a lack of a reliable simulator (which is fixed this gen thanks to PO) and a lack of interest (which this thread aims to fix). Where does it say explicitly that we will only follow VGC and never any other type of doubles format?

I recently tried out Echo Voice spam, and it was quite fun.
Interesting, can you tell me more, like perhaps give some examples of how you usually run it? I would have assumed Round would have been the superior choice due to the fact that, if both pokes use it, the second pokemon to use it moves immediately after the first (I think) allowing for more abuse. Personally I don't know if it'll be powerful because of the sheer number of pokemon that use it and the gradually increasing power or very gimmicky due to normal typing and low initial BP.
 
EDIT: Also, the only time you can guarantee both users of said combo will be on the field is in the lead matchup - and Fake Out now gets the same priority as Follow Me, letting flinchers prevent this strategy from using Sashes to help it as well. If using protect and maybe a sash to prevent Fake outing and OHKOs, the boosting move user's coverage and power will be significantly lower, balancing the strategy out.
Wowwww. I had no idea. Well, looks like I need to rethink my VGC team for this year. I was just pointing out that Follow Me and Rage Powder should be tested because I'm sure there are better, more broken strategies others could come up with for it, but I think the new priority nerfs it. Follow Me was your one way to get something set-up, whether it be Trick Room or a stat boosting move, and be almost guaranteed it would go through. Now you've got to worry about out running Fake Out? The fastest user of FM/RP is Jumpluff at 110. That thing will die from nearly anything and Weavile/Ambipom are still faster. More proof Gamefreak really looked into making Multis relatively balanced. Hmmm Scarfed Follow Me Pokes...? lol.
 

Firestorm

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I can remove Standard from the title if it gets discussion on non-VGC doubles rather than the classification. VGC is obviously going to be our standard doubles metagame, but there's no reason for people not to start working on side metagames that once developed can be supported in an official capacity.
 

Destiny Warrior

also known as Darkwing_Duck
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Something that's piqued my interest is Tailwind. I used it in Ubers 2v2 last Gen with decent success, and with the extra turn, I'm pretty sure its going to let some Pokemon like Chandelure run riot.
 

Destiny Warrior

also known as Darkwing_Duck
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Priority tailwind certainly helps, but though WHimsicott has a huge support movepool, I'd prefer something else that can actually do damage. Tailwind is a precious side-effect, and I don't think relying on full supporters to set it up is a good idea in 6v6. Tornelos > Whimsicott
 
I can remove Standard from the title if it gets discussion on non-VGC doubles rather than the classification. VGC is obviously going to be our standard doubles metagame, but there's no reason for people not to start working on side metagames that once developed can be supported in an official capacity.
Personally I think the clasrification should be ou doubles as opposed to standard - as standard fits neither vgc, a clearly not typical meta when compared to ou singles which we call standard, nor ou doubles which is not supported by smogon. But that's just semantics anyway.

I'll be interested to see if a trick room ss team using bulky mons to flinchax everything to death with their now fast speeds works. I have a suspicion it won't as wide guard protects from the rock slides it uses now, and explosion has been nerfed. Does anyone know if protect and wide guard us the same counter for potential failures?
 
Interesting, can you tell me more, like perhaps give some examples of how you usually run it? I would have assumed Round would have been the superior choice due to the fact that, if both pokes use it, the second pokemon to use it moves immediately after the first (I think) allowing for more abuse. Personally I don't know if it'll be powerful because of the sheer number of pokemon that use it and the gradually increasing power or very gimmicky due to normal typing and low initial BP.
It was admittedly DW, so I had Scrappy pokemon and Meloetta on hand, alongside Tornelos with Tailwind, Rain Dance and Hurricane on hand to give a bit more support. Round is a good idea, but having all your team-mates attack one opponent is actually not that great, and speed can be remedied with something as simple as Tailwind - Round's strength never gets to 200 either, which on something like a Modest Choice Scarfed Meloetta or Togekiss is 2HKOing practically everything.

Better off in Triples, I say.
 
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