Non-VGC Doubles Metagame

[Redtype]

Yes! I was waiting for this for so long. Honestly, VGC rulesets are horrible, and I would love to battle in a more regulated environment were things like Dark Void Smeargle don't run amok, but I also agree with Sixonesix that we shouldn't copy/paste banlists from Singles. The reason is obvious I hope.

Definetely supporting this.

 

[SupremeDirt]

Oh wow, a whole week or so of discussion and NOW A SUSPECT TEST.

Wow, even quicker than standard OU. You don't even have a semblance of a server live, or a tier to play on, and already you're calling for suspect testing! Also, WiFi Ubers has clauses, yes.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Oh wow, a whole week or so of discussion and NOW A SUSPECT TEST.

Welcome to B/W Smogon, make yourself at home.

 

[Benlisted]

Oh wow, a whole week or so of discussion and NOW A SUSPECT TEST.

Wow, even quicker than standard OU. You don't even have a semblance of a server live, or a tier to play on, and already you're calling for suspect testing! Also, WiFi Ubers has clauses, yes.

Tbh, the discussion is primarily about whether we want to set an initial banlist or not, and what the clauses will be. There has been a surge (well, a slight increase) of activity in Wifi Ubers, but admittedly not much has been done, we're still in a preliminary period. Thanks for the clause info though, btw.

 

[StarmanXL]

Just bringing up a potential issue with playing on Wifi Ubers - I think it has sleep, evasion and OHKO clauses active, which given the sentiment that we were initially supposed to be playing an unrestricted VGC like meta, is somewhat of an issue.

Honestly I don't see too big of a problem with this. I know this is a new metagame and all that jazz but really I don't think it will matter too much whether or not we have these clauses active. We've already discussed why sleep and OHKO clauses would be beneficial and I really don't see why we should bother trying to test Evasion since I can't see what it could possibly do to benefit the metagame, or rather how it can benefit the metagame and if those positives outweigh its very apparent negatives (making the game more luck based than skill based).

Oh wow, a whole week or so of discussion and NOW A SUSPECT TEST.

Wow, even quicker than standard OU. You don't even have a semblance of a server live, or a tier to play on, and already you're calling for suspect testing! Also, WiFi Ubers has clauses, yes.

Yeah I know what you mean. I was honestly hoping we would have avoided this but it's not my decision. Well, what can you do?

 

[Destiny Warrior]

I know I called for suspect testing pretty fast, but let's face it here, if we want this metagame to be popular and get support, we need to clean the highly overpowered stuff first. Once that's done, we can get to the finer nuances of doubles.

 

[Yogi Bear.]

Bar Slaking and maybe kyurem

You might want to actually INCLUDE Slaking on that list.
In Doubles and Triples, it's a lot easier to Slaking the support it needs to get rid of Traunt. (Gastro Acid, skill Swap, Befriend, Mummy, etc.)

You only have to determine if the support necessary to give Slaking is too quick (ban) or too long (no ban).

 

[Benlisted]

You might want to actually INCLUDE Slaking on that list.
In Doubles and Triples, it's a lot easier to Slaking the support it needs to get rid of Traunt. (Gastro Acid, skill Swap, Befriend, Mummy, etc.)

You only have to determine if the support necessary to give Slaking is too quick (ban) or too long (no ban).

Thing is, it may be easier to get rid of Truant in Doubles, but Slaking is still not as powerful as many other setup sweepers. He also relies on both him and the skill swapping teammate not being interfered with as opposed to just himself like most setup sweepers, making the strategy more vulnerable than others.

By that logic I don't think Slaking is broken, but we'll see I suppose.

 

[Kindrindra]

OMG YAY THIS IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

Has anyone tried out Wide Guard yet? With the multi-target moves common in Doubles/Triples, I think that I would have some pretty good use, as you can negate all of your opponent's multi-target moves for a turn with only one pokemon.


Also, how does rain work in Doubles/Triples? I would think that boosted Surfs would be a monster to face.

 

[Rhys29]

I find Slaking is extremely overrated even when Traunt is gone. A tiny Special Defense doesn't let it stay alive for long and its almost always a prime target. You also can't Protect on the same turn as Slaking's partner changes its ability, so both members of your party are open for a full turn. Things like Swords Dance Terrakion, Infernape, Garchomp, Arceus, and Landorus are all faster, hit harder, have better offensive typing, and don't need a partner to set up. Regigigas is more intimidating imo.

 

[Benlisted]

OMG YAY THIS IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

Has anyone tried out Wide Guard yet? With the multi-target moves common in Doubles/Triples, I think that I would have some pretty good use, as you can negate all of your opponent's multi-target moves for a turn with only one pokemon.


Also, how does rain work in Doubles/Triples? I would think that boosted Surfs would be a monster to face.

Come join the forum :P (if you haven't already)!

Wide Guard is pretty neat, but is far more use in Triples I'd imagine. Horrid distribution doesn't help it one bit. Useful as a last resort or to catch something spamming spread moves out.

Rain is of course nice, but with Storm Drain being present and drawing in all Water attacks, there is an easy way around water spam at least for those whose teams are weak to water. TR's potency also hurts it somewhat.

 

[Joshiro]

Wide Guard seems like a nice way to counter ZapChomp-style combos.

Anyone who has used Slaking knows just how overrated he really is.

-Combination of low Special Defense and a fighting weakness really doesn't let him survive long
-100 Base speed is mediocre.
-Because he takes a turn to set-up he is effectively a set-up sweeper, which there are certainly better ones out there
-He's predictable in that your opponent knows exactly what's going on as soon as Slaking shows up
-He lacks flexibility. He always has to be out with a skill swapper/mummy/Simple beamer or whatever. After the skill is gone he can't switch out without gaining truant back.

Trick Room really is amazing in doubles, but with Follow Me and Fake Out in the same priority level now, there isn't any one fool-proof way of getting Trick Room up. The closest thing I could come up with is Follow Me Inner Focus Lucario with a Ghost-type Trick Roomer.

 

[StarmanXL]

Yeah Slaking sucks shit. A bulky set with Simple Beam and Bulk Up abuse would be fun but the opponent can see that coming from a mile away.

As for Trick Room, I've found with the Mental Herb buff--it blocks Taunt now--makes it super easy to set up TR now. I've been using a MH Ghost+Fake Out user combo (specifically Dusknoir and Hariyama) and I can set it up nearly every time. Only things that really stops it are crits, sleep moves (which you can usually Fake Out) and Scrappy Fake Out users, although three's only one of those (possible increase in Kangaskhan usage?).

 

[Rhys29]

Wide Guard seems like a nice way to counter ZapChomp-style combos.

Takes care of Blizzard/Water Spout spam as well. Not fool-proof, but things like Regigigas and Roobushin can use it well.

BU Slaking + Simple Beam will be abusable, but the metagame - as it currently stands from what I've seen - is heavily focused on the special side so it won't be much use until late game. Though late game it would dominate.

 

[StarmanXL]

It's not just the special-oriented metagame--base 150 HP is nothing to scoff at--it's that he requires set up to be able to do something EVERY TIME HE COMES OUT. Don't matter if it's early, mid, or late game, if he gets forced out he has to get set up all over again in order to do anything and if the simple beamer dies then what? It'd be much more reliable to have a strong pokemon that doesn't need set up and doesn't have such a toxic ability, like, say, Garchomp. You don't have to worry about all these simple beam shenanigans and you can use it effectively any time in the game you want. Slaking simply isn't worth the hassle.

 

[Joshiro]

As for Trick Room, I've found with the Mental Herb buff--it blocks Taunt now--makes it super easy to set up TR now. I've been using a MH Ghost+Fake Out user combo (specifically Dusknoir and Hariyama) and I can set it up nearly every time.

Wow, Mental Herb blocks taunt. That's amazing. A Scrappy Kangaskhan could shut that down, but when only one Pokemon in the entire game can touch it, you've got a nice set-up. With a faster Fake Out user you could even get past Khan. As long as you've got a sturdy enough Ghost TRer and you don't get hax-killed by the guy you didn't Fake Out, you're straight. The only other situations I can come up with where TR wouldn't go through would be against two Pokemon that can't be flinched with Fake Out (Inner Focus users or Ghosts). Is there any situations I'm missing? I'm probably going to use that set-up myself.

 

[StarmanXL]

Wow, Mental Herb blocks taunt. That's amazing. A Scrappy Kangaskhan could shut that down, but when only one Pokemon in the entire game can touch it, you've got a nice set-up. With a faster Fake Out user you could even get past Khan. As long as you've got a sturdy enough Ghost TRer and you don't get hax-killed by the guy you didn't Fake Out, you're straight. The only other situations I can come up with where TR wouldn't go through would be against two Pokemon that can't be flinched with Fake Out (Inner Focus users or Ghosts). Is there any situations I'm missing? I'm probably going to use that set-up myself.

Well you have to look out for any pokemon with a sleep move that can't be hit by Fake Out (Gengar and Crobat jump immediately to mind). You also have to look out for being gang-banged by the opponent but as I said you usually won't encounter a dual-ghost lead and you'll be able to flinch one, and the ghosts you'd use to set up TR (Dusknoir, Cofagrigus, Jellicent if you hate yourself) are bulky enough to not get OHKO'd by some random attack.

Personally I wouldn't worry about the speed of the Fake Out user unless lead Kangaskhan gets THAT popular. Depending on what kinda lead you're using Intimidate or Charm Whimsicott can mess you up a bit so you gotta be smart about what you're gonna switch in after that.

 

[Joshiro]

Well you have to look out for any pokemon with a sleep move that can't be hit by Fake Out (Gengar and Crobat jump immediately to mind). You also have to look out for being gang-banged by the opponent but as I said you usually won't encounter a dual-ghost lead and you'll be able to flinch one, and the ghosts you'd use to set up TR (Dusknoir, Cofagrigus, Jellicent if you hate yourself) are bulky enough to not get OHKO'd by some random attack.

Personally I wouldn't worry about the speed of the Fake Out user unless lead Kangaskhan gets THAT popular. Depending on what kinda lead you're using Intimidate or Charm Whimsicott can mess you up a bit so you gotta be smart about what you're gonna switch in after that.

Looks like the most accurate move (other than yawn) that anyone who can't be flinched can use is Hypnosis, which at 60 accuracy is pretty hilarious (I watched it miss four times in a row at a local tourney on sunday lolz). Even if anti TR strategies got very in depth, some combination of a ghost with Mental Herb and a quick Fake Out/Follow Me/Power Rage user shuts down just about everything. If leads become that overcentralized then Trick Room would probably just end up getting banned (which I feel like is going to happen anyway if this standard meta really gets rolling). And if that happens, well Garchomp is to Trick Room as Flygon is to Tailwind ;)

 

[StarmanXL]

Ugh personally I think it would really suck if TR got banned, as it would mean a whole slew of pokemon would more or less lose any reason to use them and the metagame might shift back to obscene hyper-offense like I've been told 3rd Gen doubles was. If it really got that bad I would rather have some sort of Aldaron's Proposal type deal where we'd just ban Mental Herb on TR pokes or something but I would hope it wouldn't come to that. Personally I think it would just lead to a more defensive metagame with more goodstuffs teams and whatnot. It's not like TR is an instant-win button or anything.

 

[Human]

Trick Room is not broken, you can 2HKO any TR user with ease first of all with your leads, there is Imprison and with smart switching and protects you can stall out Trick Room.

 

[Benlisted]

Trick Room is not broken, you can 2HKO any TR user with ease first of all with your leads, there is Imprison and with smart switching and protects you can stall out Trick Room.

I agree. TR is pretty badly hampered by good use of protect possibly more so in doubles than in singles, like you say. It seems in the same boat as weather/maybe Tailwind to me - powerful but by no means dominating over all other strategies, if they prepare correctly, especially given the advent of team preview allowing you to match your leads to whatever the opponent may do.

 

[Joshiro]

Trick Room is not broken, you can 2HKO any TR user with ease first of all with your leads, there is Imprison and with smart switching and protects you can stall out Trick Room.

All in the kool aid and don't even know the flavor.

I don't mean to be rude, but I feel like you didn't even read Starman and my conversation, or at least didn't completely comprehend what we were talking about.

-Your TRer is not going to be 2HKOd if you have a Fake Out or Follow Me user.
-Imprison not only requires you to fill up two moves slots to block Trick Room, without a Ghost with Mischievous Heart or a Mental Herb you're susceptible to Taunt and Fake Out. You're almost better off just putting on a lagging tail and using TR yourself to reverse it.
-I assume by "Smart Switching" you mean switching in walls to stall TR out. This is doubles.
-Protect is the only viable thing you mentioned, which is still risky, predictable, and downright gimmicky. While Protect isn't a wasted slot on a Doublesmon if you understand aggro, using it many times in semi-succession just gives your opponent the chance to set something else up or, even worst case scenario, the TR team will smash you in between protects and then set up TR again afterward (hope your taunter didn't die).

I didn't mean to start a debate on whether TR should be banned, I just made a comment that there were very very few ways to shut down a good TR set-up, and that TR or something involved in it would be banned before someone like Scrappy Kangaskhan or purposely running two leads that can't be flinched become standard, because that is over centralization. Starman's mental herb ghost pokemon with a fake out partner is literally almost only susceptible to Hypnosis users that can't flinch and critical hits. That was the point of our conversation -- even if you know exactly what is going on you can't do anything about it. TR is set-up and for five turns your opponent not only has 5-6 pokemon that out speed yours, but they are more bulky or are better mixed sweepers (given the extra EVs).

 

[Benlisted]

-Your TRer is not going to be 2HKOd if you have a Fake Out or Follow Me user.
-Imprison not only requires you to fill up two moves slots to block Trick Room, without a Ghost with Mischievous Heart or a Mental Herb you're susceptible to Taunt and Fake Out. You're almost better off just putting on a lagging tail and using TR yourself to reverse it.
-I assume by "Smart Switching" you mean switching in walls to stall TR out. Did you forget this is Doubles?
-Protect is the only viable thing you mentioned, which is still risky, predictable, and downright gimmicky. While Protect isn't a wasted slot on a Doublesmon if you understand aggro, using it many times in semi-succession just gives your opponent the chance to set something else up or, even worst case scenario, the TR team will smash you in between protects and then set up TR again afterward (hope your taunter didn't die).

Admittedly Human didn't elaborate very much on his points, but he is correct in that TR can be countered. For instance, in regards to your points:
-Strong spread moves get past Follow me users easily, Inner Focus mons ignore FO, and your own faster fake out can be used to prevent the TR team's fake outer from hitting something you have that can OHKO the TR poke.
-In order to fully support TR in every eventuality, the non-setter needs to have Follow Me, Fake Out, and Taunt, which is quite a sacrifice in and of itself. Not saying this is a good idea, but to best protect TR this is what should be done. If your team needs to deal with TR then Imprison is a reasonable investment.
-Switching in and out isn't as bad in doubles as it's made out to be - there are often far less hazards, and just like in singles immunities can be used to get in for free. Moreover, if using a full supporter of a TR user as a lead, it'll probably need to be switched out if it's still alive in order to cause damage to the other team if they resist its sole attacking move.
-I'm somewhat surprised you call protect gimmicky in doubles tbh :\, as to me it seems incredibly useful as a possibility on almost every mon I use.

Not saying this means TR isn't broken, just you seem to be using the best possible situation for TR to be set up in in arguing your points, whilst excluding that an opposing team could, if it prepares to a similar extent, have ways around each just as TR can have ways around its own counters.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Hey guys, thought I'd weigh in on this.

It's always been my opinion that one of the main draws of doubles is the sheer variety of Pokemon and strategies that can be used successfully. To that end, I'd like to suggest a somewhat unusual set of metagames.

In singles, there are relatively few roles that a Pokemon can have: Tank, Wall, Sweeper, etc. Naturally, there are a small number of Pokemon that are the best at those roles. Hence, each tier concentrates on a relatively small number of Pokemon. This in turn promotes the creation of lower tiers. It only makes sense to use Pokemon X if Pokemon Y isn't available. But then these Pokemon in turn are the best, prompting the creation of another tier below that.

In doubles, the situation is quite different. Very few Pokemon are almost strictly better than another and the number of 'roles' is near countless. Because of this, we have the potential to reduce the number of tiers necessary to include a very large variety of Pokemon. We still need more than one, because no matter what a cool niche ability your Cherrim or Murkrow might have, it will not stand up against a team of legends. Believe me, I've tried. However, I contend that to make over 98% of fully-evolved Pokemon viable, we will need only two tiers.

The top tier starts with no banned Pokemon at all. This caters to the players who like the heavy hitters and no-holds barred style of JAA and who don't mind a pretty centralized metagame.

The bottom tier starts with all legendary Pokemon banned, along with Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon, and Volcarona. Just to make it clear, I'm not advocating banning legendary Pokemon because of their label of legendary. I have found in my testing of various metagames in the 3rd and 4th generation that almost all of these Pokemon tend to center metagames around themselves to what I consider an unhealthy degree. In other words, these are Pokemon with a combination of enough hitting power, bulk, and speed to make most other fully-evolved Pokemon obsolete. There may be exceptions, of course. Say Regice is found to fit into such a metagame without warping it significantly. That's all well and good and it's what suspect tests are for. I'm simply suggesting this as an initial, easy-to-remember starting point.

I also advocate the following rules:
- Choose 4 Pokemon from your team of 6 after seeing your opponent's team
- Species Clause
- Item Clause
- No evasion clause
- No OHKO Clause
- No Sleep Clause (at least to start)

I don't want this thread to get too TL;DR, so I'll save my reasoning on these for later posts, once people have had the chance to respond.

EDIT: Just to be clear, here are the Pokemon I propose banning in the lower tier at a glance (pictures). They'd still be available for use in the higher tier.

Hide

 

[voodoo pimp]

Just to make it clear, I'm not advocating banning legendary Pokemon because of their label of legendary. I have found in my testing of various metagames in the 3rd and 4th generation that almost all of these Pokemon tend to center metagames around themselves to what I consider an unhealthy degree. In other words, these are Pokemon with a combination of enough hitting power, bulk, and speed to make most other fully-evolved Pokemon obsolete. There may be exceptions, of course. Say Regice is found to fit into such a metagame without warping it significantly. That's all well and good and it's what suspect tests are for. I'm simply suggesting this as an initial, easy-to-remember starting point.

I have to disagree with this. Version mascots and friends, sure. Perhaps some of the 600 BST legendaries like Manaphy and maybe Mew. But I don't see how the lesser legendaries are overcentralizing to any meaningful extent. How often do you see Articuno sweeps? Does anyone even use Mesprit? Yes, you have to build your team considering top threats like Heatran and Zapdos, but no more than you do for Scizor and Blissey.