np: Doubles OU Stage 4 - Infamous | Jirachi (Stays in DOU) | Swagger is Banned

[Stratos]

kangs not even the best mega rn, also that is dawg

 

[stax]

I also think Jirachi is a healthy component of our metagame that keeps major centralizing forces like Diancie, Kangaskhan, and Talonflame in check. It's obviously not as quintessential as a Landorus-T, but it does provide a glue that can fend off these powerhouses. My main concern with the absence of Jirachi is that it will only make Diancie, Kangaskhan, Talonflame, Sylveon, and Amoonguss even more centralizing and restrictive than they already are, which I find undesirable. Why we want to remove one of few options that can handle these prominent threats is beyond my comprehension.

Not only does Jirachi offer us an answer to all these centralizing forces, but it doesn't even restrict teambuilding either. It has the exact same weakness as Aegislash, which any team should be prepared to face. If you actually watch replays of tour games, you usually see Jirachi go down in 2-3 hits. Unlike Amoonguss, which will frequently last through the entirety of the match with Regenerator & Spore, Jirachi's presence in a game is short-lived.

Let's not be like this guy (Dawg's alt) and ban Jirachi because it flinched your mon. Serene Grace flinch is not a good reason to ban on its own, unless you think Togekiss needs to be banned, too, lol. Instead, finalize your decisions based on repercussions of banning Jirachi. Our metagame is actually smaller than Singles OU, because of super viable threats like Kangaskhan. What is the point of making these threats even more powerful and centralizing?

Personally, I think we should focus more on these super viable threats like Kangaskhan (for the nth time) and Azumarill if we want to aim for a more diverse and less centralized metagame we have now, rather than targeting support mons like Jirachi, but I know I am in the minority here :(

when u get called this guy but not actually that guy
.cri
edit: fuck too late

 

[Pocket]

sorry, Stax, i corrected myself n_n Thanks, Stratos

 

[Tace]

I personally hate jirachi in doubles ou. T-wave+ iron head on jirachi means that your pokemon have a 90% chance to do nothing.

 

[Arcticblast]

Personally, I think we should focus more on these super viable threats like Kangaskhan (for the nth time) and Azumarill if we want to aim for a more diverse and less centralized metagame we have now, rather than targeting support mons like Jirachi, but I know I am in the minority here :(

I wanted to single this out for a moment: we're not aiming to create a "diverse and less centralized" metagame. We're aiming for a balanced metagame, where every major threat can be easily answered before it has the opportunity to take the game away. Jirachi is being suspected because it does such an incredible job at enabling other Pokemon to become huge threats, even when the other team is properly prepared for it (as opposed to things such as Kangaskhan and Azumarill, which can still be taken down even if they manage to set up).

 

[Pocket]

Part of my argument is reiterated by Bughouse - losing Jirachi may tip this balance and make already powerful threats even worse.

Jirachi is being suspected because it does such an incredible job at enabling other Pokemon to become huge threats

This is a fair reason to suspect Jirachi, except I haven't seen Jirachi doing "an incredible job" enabling other Pokemon to become huge threats, at least NOT significantly better than other supporters like Amoonguss or Togekiss. In the other hand I've seen multiple instances where Azumarill doing an incredible job exploiting one turn to set up and punch holes into the opponent's teams, with or without Jirachi's help, and quite consistently, too (look at its win rate in SPL & DPL).

Jirachi isn't quite exactly auto-pilot either, because that's the easiest way to lose Jirachi in 1-2 turns, which happens more often than I expected. Jirachi is best saved for mid- to late game, and it can be a challenge preserving its health to make the most out of its sponging capabilities. You definitely need to play well to make Jirachi worth its teamslot, and I don't find that particularly punishable with a ban. However, I respect that other people have different standards of "an incredible job" of support, so wherever the community feels to draw the line is the one we will ultimately have to follow.

For the sake of discussion purposes, it would be best if people can provide some replays that display Jirachi's "excessive" support to move their cases forward. Here are some quick list of replays for people to appreciate where I am coming from:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-382382452 - tanked 1 Ice Beam and 1 Flamethrower, didn't contribute to Azumarill's BD set up.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-380375023
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-362769207
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-362793005
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-366463284
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-362923162 - compare the support provided by Amoonguss vs Jirachi
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-160483
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-366921495

I may comment on these replays later, but I feel like they are mostly self-explanatory. If you can pick up where Jirachi contributed "too much," I'd like to know

 

[Dawg]

Fair post though fwiw, if you're gonna call me out, tagging me makes it easier to put my point of view in response as objectively as possible.
Before I even begin launching an argument for the ban for Jirachi, I'm going to acknowledge I have a huge bias against Jirachi, as the archetypes I most enjoy using, featuring gardevoir, sylveon and Diancie all are not optimal against Jirachi, thus I have an ulterior motive for wanting it banned.

However I feel that Jirachi should be banned not necessarily because it can be proven to be "too good" for the current metagame, but because of the benefit that the rest of the metagame receives when it is removed. If Jirachi is removed a lot of less common threats, or even common threats immediately benefit, namely sylveon, Gardevoir, Amoongus, Diancie, Kangaskhan. It also regains a special niche for the friend guard abilities of Clefairy, as it is no longer overached completely by Jirachi, I think clefairy (and clefable) would have a nice spot in a metagame without Jirachi, as they have Follow me, but without Insane typing, and the ability to decide slower Pokemon aren't allowed to move.

Though I think the most improvement comes in Azumarill play. Jirachi Azumarill is a combination I think is far, far too strong in DOU. If The jirachi has goggles, the amoongus you have to deal with Azumarill is treated as if it was never even brought to the game. It's worth noting, there are no safety goggles for "follow me" , If you've got to deal with Jirachi's steel defensive typing follow me bullshit, well you've got to deal with it.
I don't think Azumarill Jirachi play is very interactive, and in the hands of a skilled player, I don't think the whole archetype with genies / kang / Azumarill / Heatran has a great deal of poor/er matchups / counterplay. I think as soon as this redirector is changed however to something like Amoongus / clefable / clefairy, Checks such as your own amoongus, easier use of kyurem b and aegislash appear immediately to help stop azumarill + Redirection.


Finally a lot of you probably have come across my complaints about Jirachi Flinching. I won't pretend I don't absolute abhor that it has the potential to stop a Pokemon slower then it from moving 60% of the time. A common Steel Type redirector having this ability I think is the "gravy" to why I want it banned, it discourages slow Pokemon, and defensive play from the tier. It's worth noting, I abhor air slash togekiss in a similar vain, but the difference herein is, Togekiss is infinitely times easier to stop, thanks to it not having steel typing. Therefore togekiss is far weaker to the common "genies" duo, as well as failing to resist kangaskhan, azumarill, Diancie, kyurem b, thundurus - all of which Jirach is at least netural to.


I apologise for the terrible grammar, it's 2am, I just wanted to make a quick response and detail some thoughts before I forgot.

tldr; Jirachi shouldn't be banned just because it stops slower pokemon 60% of the time for fun, but because of how centralising it is currently, and how beneficial it would be for future metagames to not feature it.

I also think Jirachi is a healthy component of our metagame that keeps major centralizing forces like Diancie, Kangaskhan, and Talonflame in check. It's obviously not as quintessential as a Landorus-T, but it does provide a glue that can fend off these powerhouses. My main concern with the absence of Jirachi is that it will only make Diancie, Kangaskhan, Talonflame, Sylveon, and Amoonguss even more centralizing and restrictive than they already are, which I find undesirable. Why we want to remove one of few options that can handle these prominent threats is beyond my comprehension.

Not only does Jirachi offer us an answer to all these centralizing forces, but it doesn't even restrict teambuilding either. It has the exact same weakness as Aegislash, which any team should be prepared to face. If you actually watch replays of tour games, you usually see Jirachi go down in 2-3 hits. Unlike Amoonguss, which will frequently last through the entirety of the match with Regenerator & Spore, Jirachi's presence in a game is short-lived.

Let's not be like this guy (Dawg's alt) and ban Jirachi because it flinched your mon. Serene Grace flinch is not a good reason to ban on its own, unless you think Togekiss needs to be banned, too, lol. Instead, finalize your decisions based on repercussions of banning Jirachi. Our metagame is actually smaller than Singles OU, because of super viable threats like Kangaskhan. What is the point of making these threats even more powerful and centralizing?

Personally, I think we should focus more on these super viable threats like Kangaskhan (for the nth time) and Azumarill if we want to aim for a more diverse and less centralized metagame we have now, rather than targeting support mons like Jirachi, but I know I am in the minority here :([/quote

 

[Derivatives]

Sorry Elise I promised a bigger post but I would rather say as much as possible without having the ability to be lawyer'd

Why requiring 2 or more mons to be able to beat two opposing mons doesn't make sense - READ ME IF YOU THINK AZUMARILL+JIRACHI IS THE ONLY PROBLEM

Everyone throws this around like it makes sense. It doesn't.
If you have a redirector paired with a really strong mon, you have to have something which can both beat the redirector and not die to the mon paired with it, and a fun fact is that most (if not all) combinations that don't have a Jirachi have a mon which can beat both of the two mons to a good extent. Examples are Mega Metagross vs Gard/Diancie+any redirector (and when I say any redirector, I mean bar Jirachi and redirectors that are not listed as viable), Landorus-T vs Kangaskhan+pretty much any redirector, Ferrothorn vs Kangaskhan/Gard/Diancie/Azumarill+any redirector, Amoonguss vs Diancie/Azumarill+Amoonguss... the list continues as we consider more common (as well as more rare) consistent combinations of strong attacker+redirector.
Most powerful attackers+Jirachi, as I will later elaborate upon later in this post, is inconsistent with this. There is no one thing which is guaranteed the ability to win against it+its partner unless you leave the realm of viable mons and bring out the bad stuff like Discharge Thundurus or Krookodile or something (idk I really just listed bad stuff here hoping it would help with my point :I).
Many people believe that it's okay to not have a one mon check to a combination of two, as can be seen by most anti-ban posts of previous DOU suspects; I still cannot understand how requiring 2+ mons to beat other mons is considered healthy. If you're missing one, the other won't help at all lol. That's just dumb, especially considering how something like Jirachi+Diancie is supposed to be used late game to bypass diancie's weaknesses and stuff... anyway.
I hope this helped. If it didn't, well I'm sorry but the rest of the post isn't worth reading at this point I guess, because I don't include 2+ mon checks and am searching for single mon checks. thanks.

So. Got together a list. For checks I put things that weren't Jirachi in there (if u were wondering I would place Jirachi as solid in everything but the fire types and Azumarill; I would put in shaky for azumarill)
Group 1 - your big problems

- Diancie-Mega: Landorus-T may be on 60% of teams, but I can Diamond Storm/Moonblast/Icy Wind it on the switch-in early game (as, you know, it's their only actual check that doesn't have to play mindgames with jirachi lol)
Solid checks: Aegislash (needs to play serious mindgames though or else it could get KOd by ep)
Shaky checks: Landorus-T
Things considered by lolk to be checks but aren't: Ferrothorn

- Azumarill: Everyone's biggest problem. You can't touch Azumarill while Jirachi is next to it, and by the time Jirachi dies Azumarill has punched several important holes in the opposing team, end of story.
Solid checks: discharge memes
Shaky checks: worse discharge memes, Aegislash (this loses if its knock off azu and fucking sucks at mindgames against play rough), Volcanion (this dies to play rough/knock off though), Amoonguss (it gets ohkod though. lol), and Landorus-T (before azu belly drums)

Group 2 - the silent but deadly ones

- Kangaskhan-Mega: I mean this showing itself to be practically broken isn't a surprise. It's Kangaskhan. Getting to Low Kick/PuP resists to Double-Edge/Return for free is ridiculous.
Solid checks: Aegislash
Shaky checks: Landorus-T

- Gardevoir-Mega: lol hyper voice spam memes. I don't know how you manage to switch into this and beat it in 1 mon without using Aegislash or Jirachi considering lots of Gardevoirs run Hidden Power Ground. lol
Solid checks: Aegislash
Shaky checks: Landorus-T, Volcanion
Group the Rest of Them - everything that wasn't above but is still hella dumb

- Charizard-Mega-Y: k. its checked by like heatran volcanion and lando-t... but hp ground zard fucks with heatran and volcanion and lando-t can't switch in/has to lock itself into a move/icy wind.
Solid checks: Landorus-T, Landorus-I
Shaky checks:

- Charizard-Mega-X: k. its checked by heatran and lando-t... but nothing else comes close at all whatsoever especially after a dd lol. also lando-t may be able to lock into EQ and hit both mons, but fears even +0 flare blitz outspeeding it (especially if it has taken prior damage) and icy wind is for being annoying of course.

So my point: you may not agree with the placement of Mega Diancie but basically what I mean to say is that all of this shit is busted. There's no good check that covers all of the Jirachi+partner combinations at all, and the closest we have are Landorus-T and Aegislash which theoretically don't even work 90% of the time considering this is usually left for late game stuff.

Jirachi's bulk spread: also unpredictable. Analysis spread of 252 hp/92+ def lives Adamant LO Talon fb. Some might run like 252/132 def/76+ sdef, which allows it to take a Charizard Y hw in sun and take Landorus-T EQ as a 3HKO (at the cost of having a chance to die to talon). That's broke shit right there.

Rain is also AIDS because rain mons seriously shit on the jirachi checks listed above. It's hard to prepare for jirachi without going like genies+fire, and it's hard to deal with rain without thund+kanga. Just slap on Amoonguss as a redirector and half of ur team is literally food for the name of the team itself - and checking the few remaining problems is a breeze (keldeo/azumarill+landorus-t smacks fires kanga thund and lando-t away for diancie+jirachi; pert just goes up to kanga+thund and is like, lol).

Maybe if I'm missing something shoot me a pm or post it here but that's all I have to say.

 

[Pocket]

Some main points that I like to clarify:

1. Jirachi > Togekiss overall, but not by much. I acknowledge that Jirachi is a superior FM user than Togekiss. I've known this fact since the beginning of XY, where people were still high on Togekiss. I admit that there are some teams where Togekiss would fit better, though. Togekiss is not like Mega Lopunny, which is totally outclassed by Mega Kangaskhan in virtually all circumstances; it has its uses.
   
   
2. Jirachi's support is nothing extraordinary; its superior typing and stats rarely translate to significant increase in support potential, mainly because its weaknesses are easily exploited in this metagame even without trying too hard. Even if we ban Jirachi, the team composition wont change at all, since any competent team is prepared against powerful Steel-types, such as Heatran & Aegislash. I actually consider Jirachi the lesser of the three prominent Steel-types, when it comes to how they restrict teambuilding (well, at least not as bad as Heatran).
   
   
3. Jirachi's ability to protect the team from Kangaskhan, Diancie, Talonflame, Sylveon / Gardevoir, and Amoonguss is a great asset to the metagame, as opposed to a fault. The Pokemon that Jirachi fends off are ubiquitous and dominating the metagame rn, despite Jirachi's presence. Losing Jirachi would make these threats even worse. In the same vein as Landorus-T, I consider Jirachi as an important glue mon that can check multiple potent threats that would otherwise be quite mindless to use.
   
   
4. Tiering is based on the suspect's effect on the current metagame. I've seen some influential players stating how Jirachi should be banned so Mega Mence wont be broken and thus be playable in OU. We don't ban Pokemon based on its effect on an imaginary metagame where Mega Mence is allowed, but based on its influence on the real metagame, where Mega Mence doesn't exist. Using an Uber's brokenness as a reason to ban a suspect is absurd, and blatantly disregards Smogon's tiering philosophy. Hopefully, these players were just joking n_n
   
   
5. Don't get the utility of Follow Me confused with Jirachi. I have also heard players stating that the turn that is used to take out the opponent's Jirachi is actually bad for the player, because that is a free turn or two that its partner can use to take out the opponent's team. The person used this to criticize Jirachi, when in fact he was criticizing the role of Follow Me's ability to create a free turn or two for potent offensive juggernauts to break through the team's counterplay. Any competent redirector is able to create one or two free turns for its partner with Follow Me; this is not unique to Jirachi. This is clearly a case against either Follow Me (lol) or against the potent threats like Azumarill, Kangaskhan, & Diancie that only need a free turn or two to overwhelm the opponent (if this is actually true n_n).
   
   
6. Jirachi isn't being tested for Iron Head flinches. It's no Skymin that outrun virtually 95% of the metagame and can earn free turns with Air Slash flinches. Jirachi rarely runs Speed over 265 (many run 240 or min Spe), unless your name is Checkmater. Skymin's capacity to flinch hax was quite ridiculous, and Jirachi's middling Speed and Iron Head flinches don't even hold a candle to that little pine pixie. More significantly, Iron Head flinching is risky, and can even detract from Jirachi's main "broken" purpose when it is misused. When you opt to Iron Head with Jirachi, you are leaving its partner vulnerable to crippling attacks. I have seen multiple cases, where decent players opted for Iron Head instead of Follow Me, and got screwed over b/c they didn't play safe with Follow Me. Iron Head really shouldn't be spammed in favor of the more reliable support that Follow Me offers.

Derivatives, why are your situations depicting a 2 vs 1 scenario - (FM + Partner vs something that counters both)? That is not exactly how it plays out in actual matches.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

Hi derivations,

To give your argument more credibility you should use Jirachi + Diancie /azu/whatever. Dominate with that core and get reqs through destroying ladder noobs with the Jirachi core and post replays.
This will carry much more weight than your theory'ing.

Thanks,
N1n1

 

[Derivatives]

Derivatives, why are your situations depicting a 2 vs 1 scenario - (FM + Partner vs something that counters both)? That is not exactly how it plays out in actual matches.

Well are you implying that the other mons are doing stuff lol
That's not how it plays out in actual matches with a Jirachi on the other end unless you have both "checks" out at the same time.

Edit: I thought this would fully answer it at the time of posting but now I realize that that was actually really dumb of me. I apologize for not elaborating on this, it probably just looked like I was shitposting.
Basically having anything that's not a Jirachi+partner check risks dying or just being nothing or risks having the opponent attack your new mon on switchin or risks having the opponent set up (i.e. tailwind on zard y if it has it, dd zard x, pup kangaskhan, belly drum azu, or jirachi using icy wind as you switch) which is really hard if not impossible to come back from in many possible cases. Even if you have both of your checks out at once, and you manage to get rid of the Jirachi, it has already done its job of distracting you from the real threat that was just hiding behind its follow mes. And of course if you don't manage to take it out its worse.
It's honestly hard to discuss how a support mon is broken and I get that; I have been pondering this suspect for months and am making implications on what other people will understand when I say something like in this post. But really, I know you try to pin this on Azumarill being broken next to redirection rather than Jirachi being what breaks it, but Jirachi's very very few easily exploitable weaknesses while next to Azumarill forces opponents to bring out things like Hydreigon or Bisharp to simply die to Azumarill, but not after taking out the Jirachi. This seems like a big step as it is usually with the other redirectors, but in the case of Jirachi you have only put some of the biggest threats to the opposing team on the line in front of an Azumarill.
We've also seen in the Mega Salamence suspect that Jirachi was blamed for over 95% of its pro-ban arguments. We can only imagine what people's reactions would have been if Jirachi were already banned, and much less what the meta itself would be like. The community has varying opinions on what this would be like (I know one guy that posted huge pro-ban arguments for the Salamence retest now believes that Jirachi was to blame, not Salamencite). We'll be mad if we want to be mad that we can't hit past the little redirecting steel, especially in drastic cases such as Azumarill, Mega Salamence, or Mega Diancie (some of you really deny diancie+jirachi :().
Sorry if this looked bad before.

 

[miltankmilk]

Hi I got reqs now so I'll flesh out my thoughts. I came into this test pretty neutral where I thought Jirachi was really stupid but probably not broken; but the more I think about it and the more different partners I see succeeding with it, I definitely started leaning pro ban. As Derivatives listed, whatever u think of that post lol, there are a lot of potential partners Jirachi helps out so you have to think of what its supporting as well as the support that is being done. Diancie/Azu + rachi is notoriously annoying or skill-less to play against because of how few pokemon matchup well vs it.

What, imo, really puts it over the edge as far as being ban worthy is how it limits its checks to things that outspeed it because of flinchas. While its flinching alone isn't enough to ban it by any means, this coupled with its incredible support capabilities that have already been highlighted make Jirachi, to me, a really unhealthy component of the metagame. I also don't like the idea of thinking about a Jirachi-less meta because this isn't about making the meta more enjoyable or something people don't like, its about removing something that isn't healthy for the metagame for whatever reason, in this case it is how well it limits checks to so many already great pokemon.

 

[Laurel]

"Hey Laurel here - I have not faced any problems with Mega Salamence and do not believe it needs to be banned based on my experiences. I believe the real problem is steel-types. Thanks for your time." (March 2015)

I would like to thank Tokyo Tom, Lasagne, and qsns for reminding me of this post.

 

[Nollan]

Well I played a ton of high level games so I would like to share what I observed.

basic Jirachi discussion

Firstly, Jirachi is definitely annoying, though it is usually flinching or redirecting, which means it is pretty passive. Now the Serene Grace Iron Head (similarly to Skymin's Air Slash) is hella dumb. I do agree with Pocket that this should not be a reason to ban Jirachi, though. If we did want to address this problem, I feel like we could manage this issue without just flat-out banning Jirachi (honestly I feel some sort of flinch clause could be made; not saying its easy but I am not supporting banning something if another solution could be achieved). It does pack more bulk than your average Follow Me mon, but it has pretty common weaknesses (i.e. Fire, Ground, Dark) and I find myself able to KO it pretty fast (one to two turns usually; including the possibility of having to swap in checks to it).

That being said, Azumarill + Jirachi + Mew is probably the lamest combo I have ever seen. My two cents on this is that Azumarill is the real problem with this combination, as it can set up to absurd power in one turn (similarly to Xerneas, just with no speed in exchange for hitting really hard and packing a priority option). Transform Mew means in another turn you can have two +6 Azumarills. This is by far the most punishing threat in the format. I look at this issue with the following logic:

• If we take away Jirachi, we still have other forms of redirection and transform Mew, meaning while more difficult to set up, do so with the right positioning and it is probably just game right there. Additionally, opposing Jirachi being gone means you have less options to redirect the Transform. Also note Mew provides Fake Out support on its own as well. Imo banning Jirachi will not change the fact that these strategies can give opponents what I see as too much advantage from a given play. Thus, I do not think Jirachi is the issue in this core. If we think it is broken for other reasons then banning could be the play to make. But for those who think Azu + Jirachi in particular is the issue, I do not think Jirachi is the key issue in this core.

• Take away Azumarill and suddenly the core has nothing to center around nearly as extreme as Azumarill w/ BDrum is. Honestly, imo this is case closed for this particular core. That being said in this instance I would propose banning Belly Drum + Azumarill rather than Azumarill entirely. This is a discussion for another time though, so for now what we care about is that Jirachi is NOT the central issue with said core imho.

It seems people are also talking about Jirachi + Diancie-Mega when it comes to those top of the list threats. One point is that EQ hits them both simultaneously, which bypasses the Follow Me. Kingdra on a rain team can also do damage with Muddy Water, which doesn't have to deal with Diamond Storm boosts. This core is definitely a threat, however. Once again I do see Diancie-Mega as the bigger issue here, it is a Fairy-type with great coverage, status immunity, and a really really good spread move. Most Fairy-types don't have this kinda of coverage, and considering the high 110 speed Diancie-Mega is definitely one of, if not the, best Megas in the current format.

Honestly at this point it is becoming clear that there is a bigger issue in all of this, so rather than continuing with other threats + Jirachi I will move on to my next topic in this discussion.

the redirection dilemma

An issue that has been reoccurring in the meta for a very long time (almost since the Salamence-Mega issues in early ORAS) is the applications that redirection can apply to the meta's bigger threats. We have seen again and again issues with just how powerful a top tier pokemon with Follow Me or Rage Powder support can be, whether it is MegaMence, Diancie-Mega, Khan, Azumarill, or others. The way we have handled this in the past (MegaMence highlights) is by banning the powerful attacker. And to be honest, this does make sense to me (and is the logic I myself used when discussing the above cores). Why would we ban the mon that does no damage? After all, it isn't the threat sweeping the team. I think this suspect is a huge turning point in how we look at and define what an "overpowered" mon in Doubles really is. Thus I believe this may just be to most important suspect in SmogDubs history.
However, we have no reason whatsoever to ban Jirachi, and I will explain below.

Solutions

Imma make it simple here: Follow Me is the issue to address entirely. Rage Powder is more manageable in that you can be immune to its effects completely, but Follow Me doesn't give you this luxury, so with it you are basically down to spread moves/Taunt or bust. This means with the right threat that lacks weakness to any spread moves you have alongside the Follow Me user, you are basically just at disadvantage from the start and need to outplay your opponent to some degree in order to get the win.

I don't think there is anyone here who feels like a Jirachi w/o Follow Me would be broken. Therefore, I think these are really the three options that should be considered:

• ban the combo of Jirachi + Follow Me. Yay, problem solved without actually banning the pokemon outright! Honestly if someone can't find this solution agreeable on, I would like to know why. If that reason is Iron Head flinching, go look at the very top of my post where I mention other options to deal with this issue.
• ban or put restrictions on the move Follow Me itself. Whether we would just make Follow Me illegal or put some kind of clause (per instance not allow one to use Follow Me twice in a row or some weird concept like that) or just ban the move, this solution could work.
• ban or restrict redirection moves in general. If we are really concerned we could include Rage Powder, but this is imo something we don't need to do since A) Rage Powder and its users are not as tough to handle, and B) we can do this later if Rage Powder actually feels like an issue even after Follow Me restrictions

For many players familiar to VGC the last two options may not initially make sense, as redirection in VGC is not too big an issue, so why would it be an issue here? However, from my experience playing both formats, I have noticed the added length of Smogon Doubles matches in comparison to VGC. Thus teams and strategies that play a more positional game (PerishTrap and Follow Me Bunnies for instance) are decently stronger because they have more time to find that oppurtunity and get the rewards off of it. Thus I basically am saying that redirection is more powerful in SmogDubs by imo a decent enough margin to be causing the problems we are facing. If you think that this is a load of crap it should still be agreeable to ban Follow Me + Jirachi anyway.

tl;dr
After some deep thinking, I am 100% against banning Jirachi because we can fix this issue without doing that and it wouldn't take that much effort from the Doubles community to make this happen.

 

[miltankmilk]

Well I played a ton of high level games so I would like to share what I observed.

basic Jirachi discussion

Firstly, Jirachi is definitely annoying, though it is usually flinching or redirecting, which means it is pretty passive. Now the Serene Grace Iron Head (similarly to Skymin's Air Slash) is hella dumb. I do agree with Pocket that this should not be a reason to ban Jirachi, though. If we did want to address this problem, I feel like we could manage this issue without just flat-out banning Jirachi (honestly I feel some sort of flinch clause could be made; not saying its easy but I am not supporting banning something if another solution could be achieved). It does pack more bulk than your average Follow Me mon, but it has pretty common weaknesses (i.e. Fire, Ground, Dark) and I find myself able to KO it pretty fast (one to two turns usually; including the possibility of having to swap in checks to it).

That being said, Azumarill + Jirachi + Mew is probably the lamest combo I have ever seen. My two cents on this is that Azumarill is the real problem with this combination, as it can set up to absurd power in one turn (similarly to Xerneas, just with no speed in exchange for hitting really hard and packing a priority option). Transform Mew means in another turn you can have two +6 Azumarills. This is by far the most punishing threat in the format. I look at this issue with the following logic:

• If we take away Jirachi, we still have other forms of redirection and transform Mew, meaning while more difficult to set up, do so with the right positioning and it is probably just game right there. Additionally, opposing Jirachi being gone means you have less options to redirect the Transform. Also note Mew provides Fake Out support on its own as well. Imo banning Jirachi will not change the fact that these strategies can give opponents what I see as too much advantage from a given play. Thus, I do not think Jirachi is the issue in this core. If we think it is broken for other reasons then banning could be the play to make. But for those who think Azu + Jirachi in particular is the issue, I do not think Jirachi is the key issue in this core.

• Take away Azumarill and suddenly the core has nothing to center around nearly as extreme as Azumarill w/ BDrum is. Honestly, imo this is case closed for this particular core. That being said in this instance I would propose banning Belly Drum + Azumarill rather than Azumarill entirely. This is a discussion for another time though, so for now what we care about is that Jirachi is NOT the central issue with said core imho.

It seems people are also talking about Jirachi + Diancie-Mega when it comes to those top of the list threats. One point is that EQ hits them both simultaneously, which bypasses the Follow Me. Kingdra on a rain team can also do damage with Muddy Water, which doesn't have to deal with Diamond Storm boosts. This core is definitely a threat, however. Once again I do see Diancie-Mega as the bigger issue here, it is a Fairy-type with great coverage, status immunity, and a really really good spread move. Most Fairy-types don't have this kinda of coverage, and considering the high 110 speed Diancie-Mega is definitely one of, if not the, best Megas in the current format.

Honestly at this point it is becoming clear that there is a bigger issue in all of this, so rather than continuing with other threats + Jirachi I will move on to my next topic in this discussion.

the redirection dilemma

An issue that has been reoccurring in the meta for a very long time (almost since the Salamence-Mega issues in early ORAS) is the applications that redirection can apply to the meta's bigger threats. We have seen again and again issues with just how powerful a top tier pokemon with Follow Me or Rage Powder support can be, whether it is MegaMence, Diancie-Mega, Khan, Azumarill, or others. The way we have handled this in the past (MegaMence highlights) is by banning the powerful attacker. And to be honest, this does make sense to me (and is the logic I myself used when discussing the above cores). Why would we ban the mon that does no damage? After all, it isn't the threat sweeping the team. I think this suspect is a huge turning point in how we look at and define what an "overpowered" mon in Doubles really is. Thus I believe this may just be to most important suspect in SmogDubs history.
However, we have no reason whatsoever to ban Jirachi, and I will explain below.

Solutions

Imma make it simple here: Follow Me is the issue to address entirely. Rage Powder is more manageable in that you can be immune to its effects completely, but Follow Me doesn't give you this luxury, so with it you are basically down to spread moves/Taunt or bust. This means with the right threat that lacks weakness to any spread moves you have alongside the Follow Me user, you are basically just at disadvantage from the start and need to outplay your opponent to some degree in order to get the win.

I don't think there is anyone here who feels like a Jirachi w/o Follow Me would be broken. Therefore, I think these are really the three options that should be considered:

• ban the combo of Jirachi + Follow Me. Yay, problem solved without actually banning the pokemon outright! Honestly if someone can't find this solution agreeable on, I would like to know why. If that reason is Iron Head flinching, go look at the very top of my post where I mention other options to deal with this issue.
• ban or put restrictions on the move Follow Me itself. Whether we would just make Follow Me illegal or put some kind of clause (per instance not allow one to use Follow Me twice in a row or some weird concept like that) or just ban the move, this solution could work.
• ban or restrict redirection moves in general. If we are really concerned we could include Rage Powder, but this is imo something we don't need to do since A) Rage Powder and its users are not as tough to handle, and B) we can do this later if Rage Powder actually feels like an issue even after Follow Me restrictions

For many players familiar to VGC the last two options may not initially make sense, as redirection in VGC is not too big an issue, so why would it be an issue here? However, from my experience playing both formats, I have noticed the added length of Smogon Doubles matches in comparison to VGC. Thus teams and strategies that play a more positional game (PerishTrap and Follow Me Bunnies for instance) are decently stronger because they have more time to find that oppurtunity and get the rewards off of it. Thus I basically am saying that redirection is more powerful in SmogDubs by imo a decent enough margin to be causing the problems we are facing. If you think that this is a load of crap it should still be agreeable to ban Follow Me + Jirachi anyway.

tl;dr
After some deep thinking, I am 100% against banning Jirachi because we can fix this issue without doing that and it wouldn't take that much effort from the Doubles community to make this happen.

Im on my phone on vacation so bear with me but this is actually silly. Addressing follow me when there is one user of it which is remotely problematic is silly. In singles OU greninja was unbalanced because of protean + coverage but its just stupid to ban protean because its useless otherwise. Yeah you can run scarf rachi/offensive rachi but they're are better pokemon to do this job. A complex ban is not necessary AT ALL because it would leave a relatively value-less pokemon around, and unless you want rachi in DUU this is pointless.

 

[Pocket]

Nice to see you back, Nollan :) I agree with your rationale, but I don't agree with your conclusion in nerfing Jirachi / taking away Follow Me. You outlined so well how Azumarill, etc is the problem instead of Jirachi, so nothing really needs to be done in terms of Jirachi or redirection. Mew + Azumarill + Jirachi doesn't take much of a brain to use, and it's obvious that without Azumarill such strategy wont be as potent as it is right now. Jirachi is the most dispensable component of the core; any bulky redirector can garner 1-2 free turns for this mindless bunny spam to stay intact. Anybody who think otherwise are fooling themselves or are either blindsided by the fact that Jirachi's potential was discovered later than Azumarill, making Jirachi more of a seemingly larger new threat than the perpetual problem that was Azumarill.

Jirachi to me is like Hoopa-U or Mega Gengar. Theoretically, these mons SHOULD be broken. A dark 100 STAB protection-breaking move coming from a monster with a whopping 160 base Atk? Taking away the ability to switch out on a Ghost-type with 170 SpA / 130 Spe? How are they NOT broken?! However, in actual practice, they have been surprisingly manageable, and that's how I see Jirachi. I was apprehensive in the beginning when I heard that Jirachi was given Follow Me, and I thought it would be a bitch to take out. However, thanks to the overall nerf in Steel typing (gained Fairy resist and lost Dark- and Ghost-resist) and how standard teams are already packing multiple answers to Steel-types (at least 2-3 that can 2HKO it), Jirachi actually has a hard time offering FM support for more than 2 turns in most games. Seeing how passive it is with Follow Me and weak Iron Head (gotta watch out for Icy Wind and T Wave), it's not difficult to bring in counters to Jirachi, as opposed to trying to bring in your check against Heatran or Aegislash.

Azumarill in the other hand sets up effortlessly without Jirachi's help, thanks to its new Fairy-typing. It can easily set up on -1 Landorus-T, Salamence, Cresselia, and Heatran, and start shooting off +6 STAB priority.. I see Azumarill being the one assisting Jirachi, more than vice versa - thanks to Azumarill's efficiency in assassinating Fire-, Ground-, Ghost-, and Dark-types, Jirachi lasts longer than it usually does. Azumarill, in the other hand, could honestly care less if Jirachi was replaced by an Amoonguss, a Clefairy, a Togekiss, or a fucking Pachirisu. IDK how you guys cannot appreciate how ridiculous Azumarill is compared to most of the metagame.

Yellow Paint's team is a good example of how Azumarill removes interaction with the opponent and effortlessly execute its set up. Notice how Jirachi was probably the worst redirector for this situation, as half of n1n1's team can take it down effortlessly. Togekiss would have actually tanked Hyperspace Fury much more comfortably and lasted longer: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-337050408

There are several other replays such as this, whereas I have yet to find a game where Jirachi have accomplished something that the other redirectors would have failed to achieve in its place.

 

[Elegyy]

Honestly I feel like the main reason we should be banning Jirachi is the fact that Poison types and especially Grass types should be able to check Azu and Diancie, but they just click x vs jirachi. Not click x as in have a rough time in dealing with, click x as in forfeit against. That's not to say that Azu Rachi is a win button, but it's really REALLY fucking hard to deal with and clicks win in a lot of scenarios. Like we're saying "ohh diancie, ohh kang, ohh gardevoir" but lets face it, we just hate Azumarill. Azu isn't broken without Jirachi, and none of the above is broken with Jirachi, but Azu Rachi is so centralizing atm that it's got me using Life Orb Fire Blast Volcanion
Edit: also this is me blabbing at 3 am

 

[Bughouse]

just for the record, since Pocket suggested otherwise, you can't replace rachi with the next best redirector Amoonguss when pairing with Azumarill and get the same results. Redirecting opposing Amoonguss, Breloom, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, etc is, as Donald Trump would say, huuuuuge.

You could in theory replace it with Togekiss, Clefairy, Clefable, etc... but these Pokemon are all so less effective than the top 2 redirectors that I'm skeptical of the argument that removing Jirachi would make no difference to Azumarill's viability.

 

[Stratos]

There are several other replays such as this, whereas I have yet to find a game where Jirachi have accomplished something that the other redirectors would have failed to achieve in its place.

vs amoonguss: not be garde latios cube any goggles mon bait, not ohkoed by talon, speed control, redirects grasses, fast enough iron head flinches to buy free turns without sacrificing or needing partner to protect

vs togekiss: not be kang diancie garde latios cube thund jirachi (or any steel) etc etc bait, honestly toge isnt good lol dude

i mean come on pocket i dont know if im voting ban but that was ridiculous to even say. and amoong is good but u cant just replace rachi w/ it everywhere at all.

as for ur replay, congratulations you found a dude usin zard hoopa gar on the same team. guess i cant vote ban now.

 

[Pocket]

Granted none of these redirectors would be as good as Jirachi - nobody's arguing that. My tl;dr - even a lesser FM user can give the support Azumarill needs, because Azumarill only needs 1-2 free turns, which isn't asking much from a redirector.

I agree about the Rage Powder bit, though. Azumarill cannot BDrum against an opposing Grass-type. However, this is only a problem if the Grass-type is out on the same turn that Azumarill BDrums, which isn't something that can be consistently timed. With no fierce grass offense like Skymin around for the revenge kill, Amoonguss is sufficient to ensure some free turns once Azumarill has drummed up. Opposing Amoonguss & Ferrothorn are bopped by +6 Knock Off. Sludge Bomb + Psn/AJ finishes off Breloom. The only problem would be Mega Venusaur, which is an underappreciated mega anyway.

I am also agreeing with you here that Togekiss is an inferior choice to Jirachi, which doesn't detract from my tl;dr point. Azumarill is pretty efficient on its own in terms of setting up BD, and it only requires a little bit of assistance post-BD to punch through its few checks. You don't need an A-grade redirector to accomplish this. Togekiss is certainly enough for the job.

You are also saying the same thing as I have been saying, but you're spinning it as a negative. I find Jirachi's ability to check Kangaskhan, Gardevoir, Talonflame, Diancie, and to a lesser extent Thundurus as a GOOD thing, since they are already meta-defining prominent forces DESPITE the presence of Jirachi. I feel losing Jirachi would make these Pokemon that much more centralizing and restrictive, discouraging the use of certain unappreciated mons like Volcarona and making the metagame even staler.

Also most teams I have seen already are naturally prepared against Jirachi. You are acting as if Hoopa-U, Charizard Y, and Gengar are solely meant to break Jirachi. They are used because they are simply good, not because Jirachi "forced" players to pack a lot of anti-Jirachi counters. If you really want to focus on threats that put a stranglehold on teambuilding, think of Amoonguss, which forces players to attach Safety Goggles on 1 or more mons. Think of Heatran, Charizard Y, Gardevoir, and Landorus-T, which pretty much limit our choices by requiring us to pack multiple resistance to these powerful and pervasive spread moves.

 

[Huston]

Amoonguss is not a multi-faceted threat in quite the way Jirachi is. Amoonguss can spore, but there is safety goggles for that. Until we get a version of safety goggles that covers ALL the things Rachi can do for support, you cannot compare them, and you definitely cannot say Amoonguss is the same tier of an issue. I am going to be straight up with you right now and tell you that you are going around and around in circles, and honestly getting nothing accomplished. I was neutral on the issue until recently, but my opinions have changed due to my experiences going for suspect reqs. Rachi takes skill to use, but in the hands of someone who has a clue what they are doing it is banworthy.

 

[Haruno]

I like how no one brought up the fact that your opponent is inherently limited on what they can do at any given time due to redirection + set up/strong mon. What do I mean by this? Your opponent is inherently unable to ko both of your mons by default if you have rachi/redirection + strong mon/set up sweeper in the back since if they do double ko then they're fucked since more often than not, the mons currently out will be unable to deal with the two, and in the one turn it takes to switch out, it'll be too late especially in mid/late game. Or better yet your opponent isn't conscious of this which works out even better since it becomes yet easier to set up death fodder for the endgame.

Boom mon + sacking partner works similarly.

All in all, ban this shit.

Edit: also no fucking shit, mons got better after something relevant gets banned from a tier. Would post more but I doubt anything said here will really swing voters since everyone's dead set on what they're voting for regardless.

 

[Stratos]

I like how no one brought up the fact that your opponent is inherently limited on what they can do at any given time due to redirection + set up/strong mon. What do I mean by this? Your opponent is inherently unable to ko both of your mons by default if you have rachi/redirection + strong mon/set up sweeper in the back since if they do double ko then they're fucked since more often than not, the mons currently out will be unable to deal with the two, and in the one turn it takes to switch out, it'll be too late especially in mid/late game. Or better yet your opponent isn't conscious of this which works out even better since it becomes yet easier to set up death fodder for the endgame.

yeah thats how the strategy works, but why is that broken?

ps quit it with that defeatist attitude, or at least dont bitch about it in your posts like we give a fuck. only person who's not changing his vote come hell or high water is pocket, if everyone else was already decided this thread would be pointless

edit @ pocket: im fine with a mon that checks those things but when it redirects them from really dangerous setup sweepers is where u get into shaky territory

 

[kamikaze]

Opening up a few Suspect Tour Opportunities this weekend.

Suspect Tour #1: Saturday 6/11 10am EDT (GMT -4) - Hosted by Memoric
Suspect Tour #2: Sunday 6/12 4pm EDT (GMT -4) - Hosted by thetalkingtree

These are single-elim live tournaments with Jirachi allowed. Be on smogtours.psim.us to participate. The winners of these two tours will gain the right to vote in the suspect test.

 

[Lolk]

if you do both can u get 2 votes :D