np: Doubles OU Stage 4 - Infamous | Jirachi (Stays in DOU) | Swagger is Banned

[Elegyy]

I'm not gonna sit here and type an essay on why swagger is uncompetitive, so I'm gonna sum it up. It's really dumb how we allow games to potentially be decided on a 50/50 roll. Even if your opponent outplays the shit out of you, if you can manage to bring it to that 50/50 roll, the person who deserves the win has just the same chance as you to win. However, on the flip side, it does take some kind of skill to bring that a 100% loss into a 50/50 roll, but idk a scenario where that has happened (off the top of my head.) Also, if Swagger was truly broken, wouldn't it be a staple in the DOU meta? I would support a Swagger ban, but I'm not gonna protest it not being banned (because im no weakass complainer.) However, I find it a little silly that we banned Mence and Skymin and now might ban Jirachi for being uncompetitive and for winning is situations where they shouldn't, yet we still justify Swagger as being competitive.
Edit: i hate posting here because i dont like being called retarded so please dont do that
Second Edit: Elise I don't think it makes the game outside of a players control, because there are ways of preventing it from changing the games outcome completely

 

[ryo yamada2001]

Second Edit: Elise I don't think it makes the game outside of a players control, because there are ways of preventing it from changing the games outcome completely

using Safeguard? that would make my argument even stronger, considering Safeguard is a very specific counter which doesn't really see much usage.

 

[Elegyy]

Quick guard, switching out, protect + killing the swagger user, taunt, lum (lol) and the fact that the swagger user doesnt have galeforce so it cant swagger both of your mons in one turn
Edit: oh shit antemortem actually gave me my name change waddup right before i started going by elegyofvgc again on ps
Second Edit: Again, I would vote ban on a Swagger suspect, but I'm not gonna protest not having one

 

[JoarAddamNessosin]

Quick guard, switching out, protect + killing the swagger user, taunt, lum (lol) and the fact that the swagger user doesnt have galeforce so it cant swagger both of your mons in one turn
Edit: oh shit antemortem actually gave me my name change waddup right before i started going by elegyofvgc again on ps
Second Edit: Again, I would vote ban on a Swagger suspect, but I'm not gonna protest not having one

Yes all of those stop swag spam and yes most have a place in dubs but players shouldnt need to carry stops to a move that generates frees turns based on a coin flip when there are so many legitimate thing we already have to prepare for that happen much more reliably.

 

[Elegyy]

Agreed, however these are all either a. Literally a fundamental of doubles or b. Really common and not solely used to beat swagger. Nobody builds with swagger in mind and yet it isn't dominant. Its just really fucking annoying and can potentially turn a 100% loss into a 50% loss (which is a lot of bullshit fwiw)

 

[JoarAddamNessosin]

Agreed, however these are all either a. Literally a fundamental of doubles or b. Really common and not solely used to beat swagger. Nobody builds with swagger in mind and yet it isn't dominant. Its just really fucking annoying and can potentially turn a 100% loss into a 50% loss (which is a lot of bullshit fwiw)

I agree it isnt dominant it this meta but its enough of an issue that it should be removed. Looking at the stats if 18% and 25% of the thundys use swagger thats still a 1/4 1/5 chance youll be put into a match [if thundys there] where you will have to deal with potentially losing to a less skilled player or a team you could normally easily overwhelm all because of a coin flip. Now i know pokemon does have so things left to chance but this is one that solely relies on chance, not skill.

 

[Test Bot #]

As of right now, I feel like Swagger is not a major threat to the metagame. Most players prefer a "better quality" moveset (STAB + Protect + Other) rather than one that is frowned upon. Yeah, Swagger is something to be frowned upon... but it is certainly upper class in comparison to other hax moves. And yes, it is certainly an unfair advantage.

(1) However, the thing about Swagger is that you'll never know when it's coming. According to Bulbapedia, "All Pokemon who can learn TMs can learn Swagger..." And although it is safe to say that Prankster Pokemon are the only ones that are likely to carry Swagger, it's very unhealthy for the metagame or the tournaments if everyone needs Whimsicott, the fastest Taunt/Safeguard user.

(2) Also, Swagger does not discriminate. I mean moves like Spore, Will-O-Wisp, and Thunder Wave can be avoided by certain means, and they are not that big of a deal for wins. However, Swagger is unforgiving. Unless, I have Lum Berry, I have no safe Pokemon to switch into, and even then, the opponent will still continue to use Swagger.

(3) Lastly, I want to refer back to my first point: you'll never know when Swagger is coming. I mean, you can easily expect a Dynamic Punch or a Teeter Dance from certain Mons, and eliminate those users just as accordingly. However, you can't do that with Swagger! And unlike Supersonic and Sweet Kiss, Swagger is a 90% guarantee. Do you need a better accuracy then that?

I'm for banning Swagger before it becomes a real threat, but I'm not gonna complain if it is not. By then, I'll abuse Swagger myself. Added Note: Metagame is unhealthy if every team needs a (Quick) Guard user.

 

[Pocket]

(2) Also, Swagger does not discriminate. I mean moves like Spore, Will-O-Wisp, and Thunder Wave can be avoided by certain means, and they are not that big of a deal for wins. However, Swagger is unforgiving. Unless, I have Lum Berry, I have no safe Pokemon to switch into, and even then, the opponent will still continue to use Swagger.

With the exception of Ground-types and Pokemon with the ability Limber, Thunder Wave did not discriminate until this generation, where electric-types conferred immunity against paralysis. Same goes with Sleep Powder & Spore - until this generation, every Pokemon without the ability Insomnia / Vital Spirit were vulnerable to sleep.

You win these matches by having at least one "status absorber," taking out these status inducers ASAP, and denying them free turns to spam status conditions. Quick Guard, Safeguard, Lum Berry, Taunt are just icing on the cake if your team needs the extra protection.

 

[Test Bot #]

After the Doubles Forum began to discuss the issue of Swagger, it actually got popularized. (Should I be surprised?) Players are now using this set: Prankster + Mental Herb + Swagger/Safeguard/etc. Tell me, how would you legitimately stop that?

A single Taunt will not help, and if I try to eliminate the Swagger user, then I get Swaggered to death. (Some teams even had more than one Swagger user, so what's the point...) At the same time, the user Swagger themselves for further advantage. How can you even called this a luck factor or even a certain skill? It's neither since the abused can't act. Do I really need two Taunt users, and perhaps one Safeguard user to stop that set above? Or do you really to create a Swagger team yourself to counter the opposing Swagger team? This ain't healthy; it's a RAGE factor.

 

[Elegyy]

Alright, let's get one thing straight real quick: the ladder is not a representative of our metagame. Also, you're making it seem like when your mons get swaggered, it's the end of the game. Well first off 1. Clicking swagger as a first resort is a bad idea. Why immediately go for possibly 50/50 rolls when you could not waste time and set up an actual win? 2. Getting one of your mons swaggered doesn't mean the game is automatically at a 50/50. Also, safeguard + swagger is really easy to stop, and it too isn't the end of the world.

 

[Pocket]

There are different approaches we can take depending the consensus (seems divided as of right now). Triggered by a DPL match between SamVGC & Checkmater I brought this up to the council, but I am also interested in everybody's thoughts:

A) Confusion clause - you can only confuse one opponent at a time.

1. similar to Sleep clause in Singles, but for Confusion in Doubles. This would force players to be more judicious about which Pokemon they confuse.
2. This is actually quite restrictive for the Swagger user, because he cannot Swagger a different target until a) the currently confused mon snaps to its senses or b) the confused Pokemon is switched out, neither of which is under his control.
3. Would have definitely made an impact in the DPL game I linked, because Sam's Thundurus would not have been able to confuse Checkmater's Amoonguss after he confused Rotom-W. Checkmater's Amoonguss would have been able to make two moves that it wasn't able pull off in this match.

B) Complex Ban Prankster + Swagger

1. The main offenders of Swagger are pranksters. Without the priority confusion, Swagger becomes much more manageable, especially in Doubles.

C) Prohibit Confusing the opponent totally

1. Not a fan of this one, b/c I believe that confusion as a status condition is not 'uncompetitive,' in the same vein as sleep and paralysis are not 'uncompetitive' despite their heavily RNG-dependent nature (Sleep less so than the other two).
2. However, this is one way of preserving the strategic aspect of Swagger use (raising your partner's attack) while removing the dicey aspect of Swagger (confusion)
3. Unlike the previous option B), it also allows the use of Prankster Swagger, which is beneficial for the SafeSwag strategy to double your partner's Attack.

D) Ban Swagger

1. Most extreme and restrictive option
2. The strategic portion of Swagger (doubling your partner's attack) is sacrificed in order to remove the greater evil (swagger abuse)

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Personally, I am in favor of Confusion Clause (Option A), because although I believe Confusion as a status condition shouldn't be removed, I believe it should be restricted to avoid the repeat of what happened in SamVGC vs Checkmater's match (and other matches in the past I'm sure). I personally think Option A is also a fair middle ground between the group who wants to have Confusion available vs the group who wants less of confusion. If confusion/Swagger still happens to be an issue after this clause, we can always revisit and try a more restrictive option.

I believe we have to do something about the potential damage to competitive play caused by (Prankster) Swagger abuse. I think all four of these solutions that have been brought up would get the job done; doing nothing is the only wrong option IMO if we want to protect our game's integrity.

 

[Derivatives]

I think C and D are the only ones worth it. Like, admittedly it does have some (but not much) competitive use so maybe a complete ban would be "too much", but a confuse clause would only prevent ladder nubs from spamming Swagger/Teeter Dance like crazy, and B would do the exact same but also stop people from using self swag.

So does special mega rayquaza in singles ubers, but that doesn't make mega rayquaza competitive.

If we chose C, this would be like banning physical moves on Mega Rayquaza - something that people would say to be way too complex (which in the case of Mega Ray at least it is) but would ultimately benefit the meta game for everyone.
that's imo though

 

[sam-testings]

C brings up problems with Outrage and Hurricane and things. I still believe that D is the best option for reasons that I have already listed.

 

[Pocket]

Outrage has nothing to do with Option C, because you aren't confusing the opponent. As for Hurricane & Dynamic Punch, those secondary confusion can either happen (and we ban Dynamic Punch if we consider it 'uncompetitive') or can be programmed to not happen at all (a kin to how Sleep inducing moves fail against a second opponent). I'm pretty sure Relic Song or Effect Spore doesn't put the second mon to sleep in Singles OU, but I may be wrong how it is being implemented.

But yea, you bring up some notable issues in implementing Option C, Sam. These clauses are mainly meant to restrict moves whose PRIMARY effect / purpose is to induce status conditions. In Singles, if a Relic Song or Effect Spore by chance put a second mon to sleep by accident, so be it, IMHO. Same thing with Hurricane accidentally confusing a mon. It is kinda hard to say that confusion from Dynamic Punch is a secondary effect when it happens 100% of the time, but it can be argued that the main purpose of Dynamic Punch is dealing damage with a high base power Fighting-type move. Whether Dynamic Punch should be included under the umbrella of "Primary Confusion moves" or not is up for discussion.



EDIT: The Immortal confirmed that if Option C were to be implemented (in theory) Dynamic Punch would do damage without confusion

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

I'm on mobile so I can't say very much (also sorry if someone has said this before but I haven't been keeping up with this thread and I'm too lazy to check) but what's the harm in banning confusion moves anyways? Like realistically who builds a team and thinks "oh self-swag would work really well here." The reason that people even use swagger on their team in the first place is to possibly cripple your opponent and self-swag is just an added benefit.

 

[DragonWhale]

I personally think we should start with small steps and go with B, but allow priority side-swaggering. I think A is only necessary if swagger is still seen as a problem after implementing B.

The biggest issue with swagger is that it is abused using an increased priority bracket, giving a player who has no other outs an option to completely render the outplaying, turn management, etc up to that point of the match completely useless and leave everything up to the RNG of the game. Don't act like there's skill involved in a move that is equally effective against pretty much everything, and is countered only by relatively niche options, many of which are usually only seen on teams carrying swagger themselves (like safeguard and lum).

Removing the player's ability to abuse priority swagger is a great first step to give control of the game back to the player (as it should be imo). Of course pokemon will never be 100% under the player's control, but prankster swagger as a strategy aims solely at removing player control, and therefore should be banned. I don't think non-prankster swagger will be too problematic but I can be wrong. If a total swagger ban were to happen I'd be A-OK with that too.

 

[Funbot28]

Ya I agree with Option B the most, as the root of the problem comes from Swagger users who have Prankster like Thundurus, Klefki (also uses in conjunction with T-Wave) and Sableye. Swagger + Safeguard is still feasible with a fast Swagger users. I find this option has the least collateral damage and will help give the tier a bit more breathing space for competitive playability.

 

[Derivatives]

B is only good if we accept that everyone is good and runs good sets. Swagger can still steal wins a lot of the time under the guise of a Keldeo third move or something from ladder randoms. Having the power to let things come down to pretty much 50/50s in the hands of people who shouldn't normally win in a certain matchup (normally is without Swagger in the tier) is the reason why we want Swagger banned, not because it's some super common borked as hell thing on all the Thunduruses and Klefkis that we constantly complain about like it was for Mega Salamence.
C on the other hand completely removes confusion from the game, which holds literally no purpose but to cripple mons. Teeter Dance Mega Lopunny, Confuse Ray Crobat, and Dynamic Punch Machamp bullshit all still live on (Dynamic Punch Machamp removing people's abilities to realize that Conkeldurr is 100000000x better than Machamp, even with No Guard Dynamic Punch) if we pick B or D, but if we pick C, we mitigate hax stuff while keeping everyone's precious safe swag strats. There really isn't a better compromise than C imo.
As for A, as I stated in my previous post (too tired to check by scrolling up but p sure i said it), A really only removes situations like Sam's game and Teeter Dance, and still allows for a single (or more) relatively 50/50 scenario(s) onto one slot. A is definitely the worst of them.

 

[BlueSkiddo]

Swagger without prankster is not going to be a problem. There aren't even any fast mons that can afford to move a slot around for that. Option B is most definitely the best option. So you can continue to use your self swag shit that apparently makes it competitive, but it loses what makes it the most annoying thing in the world to your opponent.

 

[Elegyy]

Option B is cool because of swagger amoonguss, + if ur worried about your sleep turns you can just swagger them as well and then you have a 50% chance of being able to put them right back to sleep
Competitive

 

[Bughouse]

I repeatedly pushed for Swagger ban while on council, and have also supported the confusion clause (limiting to one at a time, great precedent with sleep clause).

It's the sensible thing to do.

 

[emma]

option b - the most "competitive" swagger users are prankster users (thundy, keys). in actual competitive games (DPL) you don't see shit like swagger keldeo or other garbage. you only see teeter dance lop on low ladder used by inexperienced players. in high level play, if we use option b, swagger won't be a big problem and will result in more competitive games and less 50/50s

 

[Derivatives]

option b - the most "competitive" swagger users are prankster users (thundy, keys). in actual competitive games (DPL) you don't see shit like swagger keldeo or other garbage. you only see teeter dance lop on low ladder used by inexperienced players. in high level play, if we use option b, swagger won't be a big problem and will result in more competitive games and less 50/50s

Do i have to make another post explaining that I'm not talking about top level play when I say swagger keld .________.
What I'm saying is like on the ladder or in a seasonal or open or some shit when you run into like confuse ray crobat or teeter dance mega lopunny -
To make THIS perfectly clear and noticeable, I do NOT mean SPL or late in a seasonal!!
- it can still steal a win because it randomly forces 50/50s out of nowhere, and it has the perfect element of surprise too. Regardless of skill level, it can very easily secure wins with just a small amount of luck and almost no skill which is bullshit.

sorry

sorry if the formatting of that hurt. this is like the second time today ive had to say this -_- and i dont plan on saying it again

 

[ryo yamada2001]

I think we should be avoiding complex bans (C) or code a new mechanic (A, B) so I think we should go for option D. It is the least time consuming and is a lot clearer than all other options. Self-swaggering is such a minimal thing to miss as I don't think anybody has used it in a tournament (which we are trying to shape the metagame for), let alone in friendly testmatches/others. Banning Swagger entirely would straight up be the best option.

 

[emma]

i know swagger keldeo isn't a thing in SPL lol. but what im trying to say is that in low ladder battles, if we remove prankster swagger, these 50/50s will happen less. yes, they still could happen but it would be far less. and self swagger is something people use (especially those you are playing more for fun) and I don't think we should ban swagger entirely because of that.