He got the Sap sipper boost, and yes he was Scarfed lol .
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NU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Annoyer
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Throh for B-Rank
I'm not too sure about this. Yes, he's extremely bulky and can be a pain to take down, but when the most commonly used Poke in NU (Golurk) is a Ghost-type, his presence on a team can be a liability more times than not. In addition, I personally don't really like Circle Throw as a phazing move, due to its low BP, imperfect accuracy, and inability to break Substitutes, which can all be game-changing. Yes, RestTalk activates Guts and powers up Circle Throw, but it's an unreliable strategy and we're not exactly talking about the greatest Pokémon ever when it has to rely on RestTalk for recovery (it doesn't even get Drain Punch). Throh has its merits, but overall, I think Gurdurr is a much better bulky booster, and that's already in B-rank. So I don't think it's doing Gurdurr much justice if it shares the same rank as Throh. I think it should stay in C-Rank.
I'm not too sure about this. Yes, he's extremely bulky and can be a pain to take down, but when the most commonly used Poke in NU (Golurk) is a Ghost-type, his presence on a team can be a liability more times than not. In addition, I personally don't really like Circle Throw as a phazing move, due to its low BP, imperfect accuracy, and inability to break Substitutes, which can all be game-changing. Yes, RestTalk activates Guts and powers up Circle Throw, but it's an unreliable strategy and we're not exactly talking about the greatest Pokémon ever when it has to rely on RestTalk for recovery (it doesn't even get Drain Punch). Throh has its merits, but overall, I think Gurdurr is a much better bulky booster, and that's already in B-rank. So I don't think it's doing Gurdurr much justice if it shares the same rank as Throh. I think it should stay in C-Rank.
Why gurdurr the only one there? he is as good as him and he deserbes to be there. Throh should be B-Rank .
You say Cicle trow cant breat substitutes which is wrong especially when he gets guts boosted Sleep Talk Circle Throw. Also he has an interesting niche that not any other pokemon in the tier has. He is great in Stalls team or jsut as a phazer to scout the enemy team early. And with the bulk up set you take half hp of the oponent hp when shuffling plus the hazards. He isnt weak at all.
Gurdurr??? Throh functions differently, Gurdurr is just plain bad on the special side of things, whereas Throh has good bulk over all. And no offense, 85 HP isn't bad, but 120 HP offers a much better bulk overall. And Dragon Tail has EXACTLY the same stats, but nobody says Dragon Tail is a bad move.
Golurk makes Throh a liability? Meet Payback. After a Bulk Up, Golurk hates taking Payback:
+1 0 Atk Guts Throh Payback (100 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 388-458 (107.18 - 126.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Whereas Gurdurr doesn't do shit vs Golurk, which is why Throh deserves at least B-rank.
Golurk makes Throh a liability? Meet Payback. After a Bulk Up, Golurk hates taking Payback:
+1 0 Atk Guts Throh Payback (100 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 388-458 (107.18 - 126.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Whereas Gurdurr doesn't do shit vs Golurk, which is why Throh deserves at least B-rank.
I've used Throh before, and it really isn't as effective as Gurdurr. Both can do Bulk Up sets fine, but Gurdurr's greater initial power and better moves outclass Throh's phazing for the most part. Gurdurr can also go max Attack while retaining some bulk, can tank a lot of hits thanks to Drain Punch, and strike first if need be with Mach Punch. Throh.....needs RestTalk just to survive, which firmly puts it in C imo. What's more, Throh's STAB move has negative priority instead of Mach Punch's positive priority, meaning Throh doesn't have Gurdurr's revenge killing utility. Finally, Throh pretty much needs Bulk Up boosts so that its uninvested attacks don't jack shit damage, while Gurdurr can start to smack bitches left and right with higher Attack and max investment (which Throh can't afford because he is constantly getting hit first) and can choose to boost against bulkier opponents such as Alomomola or whatnot. In fact:
Throh is pretty much limited to the boosting role, whereas Gurdurr can boost, revenge kill and tank hits better than Throh via Drain Punch. I just can't see Throh in the same rank as Gurdurr currently, so I vote Throh for C-Rank.
I'm sorry, what? If Throh can claim to deal with Golurk as easily as you so claim, tell me how Gurdurr, who possesses overall greater physical bulk via Eviolite and higher Attack (not taking investment into account!), cannot deal with Golurk in a similiar fashion?
Throh is pretty much limited to the boosting role, whereas Gurdurr can boost, revenge kill and tank hits better than Throh via Drain Punch. I just can't see Throh in the same rank as Gurdurr currently, so I vote Throh for C-Rank.
@vyomov
Throh is a good Pokemon, but your argument is atrocious. I don't know about anyone else but I would not consider Dragon Tail to be that good of a move. The only reason to use it is if your Pokemon has nothing else to phaze with or gets STAB from it, otherwise you're usually better off with Roar. Dragon Tail's advantage over Circle Throw would be its lack of immunities but even then the only Ghost-types in the tier are Misdreavus, Golurk, Haunter, and Drifblim who doesn't like switching into Throh's coverage move. Misdreavus is doomed vs Throh who can eat up a burn and destroy with Payback. Golurk, Haunter, and CM Drifblim have a hard time breaking through Throh's great bulk while Acroblimp is the only one that can get a decent hit on it even after a Bulk Up.
The thing is that Gurdurr and Throh are similar to each other in terms of bulk (With Throh holding more SpD and Gurdurr more Def) and main strategy (Bulk Up) however they play very differently. Gurdurr is more of a bulky offensive Pokemon with utility in STAB Mach Punch while Throh plays a bulkier setup Pokemon capable of shuffling around and causing damage with hazards. Since they play similarly and Throh definitely has a niche for itself I think they should definitely share B-rank together.
BTW Gurdurr has access to Payback as well (and Ice Punch) and will have 252 Atk with Adamant nature so it's actually hitting Golurk harder than a 4 Atk Throh. +1 4 Atk Throh doesn't actually OHKO Golurk with Payback either, it needs the Guts boost to do so. In that same situation, Gurdurr would do that same.
Throh is a good Pokemon, but your argument is atrocious. I don't know about anyone else but I would not consider Dragon Tail to be that good of a move. The only reason to use it is if your Pokemon has nothing else to phaze with or gets STAB from it, otherwise you're usually better off with Roar. Dragon Tail's advantage over Circle Throw would be its lack of immunities but even then the only Ghost-types in the tier are Misdreavus, Golurk, Haunter, and Drifblim who doesn't like switching into Throh's coverage move. Misdreavus is doomed vs Throh who can eat up a burn and destroy with Payback. Golurk, Haunter, and CM Drifblim have a hard time breaking through Throh's great bulk while Acroblimp is the only one that can get a decent hit on it even after a Bulk Up.
The thing is that Gurdurr and Throh are similar to each other in terms of bulk (With Throh holding more SpD and Gurdurr more Def) and main strategy (Bulk Up) however they play very differently. Gurdurr is more of a bulky offensive Pokemon with utility in STAB Mach Punch while Throh plays a bulkier setup Pokemon capable of shuffling around and causing damage with hazards. Since they play similarly and Throh definitely has a niche for itself I think they should definitely share B-rank together.
BTW Gurdurr has access to Payback as well (and Ice Punch) and will have 252 Atk with Adamant nature so it's actually hitting Golurk harder than a 4 Atk Throh. +1 4 Atk Throh doesn't actually OHKO Golurk with Payback either, it needs the Guts boost to do so. In that same situation, Gurdurr would do that same.
Right. Gurdurr can tank hits better via Drain Punch.
Pelipper (NU Rain Dance [Life Orb]) Hurricane 129.41 - 152.94%
Throh:
Pelipper (NU Rain Dance [Life Orb]) Hurricane 75.45 - 89.63%
So where does Gurdurr tank a hit better? Gurdurr's AMAZING special defense means it is OHKOed by neutral hits from special attackers in the tier:Charizard (NU Offensive [Life Orb] [Blaze]) Fire Blast 103.47 - 122.45%
Whereas Throh has the bulk to take neutral hits and phaze:
Charizard (NU Offensive [Life Orb]) Fire Blast 40.76 - 48.19%
So in which way exactly is Gurdurr better?
If anything, Gurdurr should go to C-Rank because any special attacker in the tier kills it unlike throh, who saving SE hits from Banded stuff can take pretty much anything neutral in the tier and phaze.
It's true that Throh's bulk allows it to do fantastic things like survive stuff like Jynx's Psychic and Samurott's Hydro Pump or Sawk's Close Combat and even SubBU Braviary's Brave Bird, but the issue I find is how poor it is at retaliating, and that's not considering RestTalk's unreliability. Because of its reliance on RestTalk, Throh is in constant danger of doing squat if facing a 3HKO, and trust me: while it has good bulk, 3HKOs tend to happen a lot, mainly due to the need to divide between its defenses. Maximizing Special Defense grants you great mixed bulk, but your inability to boost your SpDef further and initial vulnerability to physical hits pre-boost can really get in the way of boosting; maximizing physical defense grants you more setup opportunities but also exposes you to much more Special attacks than before. Throh also has one of the worst responses to critical hits I've seen in the tier, right up there with Munchlax: you get critted while you're asleep? That's it, Throh is now useless/dead weight, end of story, because it's too damn slow to do anything about it. Finally, relying on Circle Throw as your sole STAB definitely has its crutches: being cockblocked by Dragon Tail Lickilicky was a pretty embarassing experience to say the least.
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These calcs prove nothing as you have not stated whether it's specially or physically defensive (Charizard has Air Slash which can flinch you???), and if it's SDef I've nothing more to say really. Throh responds mediocrely / poorly against the majority of stronger special attackers combined with their follow-ups (from phazing or a KO), as it has no time to Bulk Up against them and must either phaze or (rarely) KO them since Rest won't save you. Then the physical attacker comes in and KOes you since you had no time to beef yourself enough or Rest before the attack. Gurdurr doesn't take special attacks well, but beats the majority of physical attackers one-on-one with health to spare, and can Mach Punch something as a final act of defiance if need be. Throh must constantly worry about getting critted during boosting to avoid getting bowled over or rendered useless, and thus must Rest more often and limit your freedom in choosing moves, limiting his use even further. Oh, and Throh has 4MSS: No Rest = dead in ~5 turns; No Payback = Ghosts wall you; No Sleep Talk = Sitting duck; No Bulk Up = Why are you even using this then?
Follow ups? I don't follow. For instance, after SR is set up, all Throh has to do is literally get in ONE Circle Throw and that's pretty much it for Charizard whereas Gurdurr has nothing it can do while Charizard roasts it.
Critical hits? LOL. The chance of a critical hit is SOO low you shouldn't be worrying about it. Ohh, IF it gets a critical hit it's gone. Yes, but why not mention that with 100 Base Attack, a critical hit off Throh(Misdreavus (NU Calm Mind) Payback 45.06 - 53.08% without crit so after SR with crit, OHKO).
It's not fair to mention crits on one side without the other, one can only make a balanced analysis if factors are same for both. The chance of Throh getting a crit is EXACTLY the same as other mons, so mentioning crits is kinda useless.
If we assumed crits for everything Sawk is plain broken because with a crit CB Close Combat, anything NOT a ghost type is goners.
Critical hits? LOL. The chance of a critical hit is SOO low you shouldn't be worrying about it. Ohh, IF it gets a critical hit it's gone. Yes, but why not mention that with 100 Base Attack, a critical hit off Throh(Misdreavus (NU Calm Mind) Payback 45.06 - 53.08% without crit so after SR with crit, OHKO).
It's not fair to mention crits on one side without the other, one can only make a balanced analysis if factors are same for both. The chance of Throh getting a crit is EXACTLY the same as other mons, so mentioning crits is kinda useless.
If we assumed crits for everything Sawk is plain broken because with a crit CB Close Combat, anything NOT a ghost type is goners.
Vyomov, it's pointless if you are able to tank a hit but can't respond in any way bar phazing. Throh's low attacking stats means that phazing is its only niche. And phazing, as we know, has negative priority. That means that Throh will be forced to use Rest more often than you would like since it is likely crippled by two consecutive hits.
Its two viable sets are either ineffective or outclassed -- Bulk Up is outclassed by Gurdurr, who is able to hit hard and fast with Mach Punch and Drain Punch, and has overall greater physical bulk, and RestTalk is just ineffective because the two turns of randomness could mean a Jynx could switch in, have a 67% chance of not getting hit by Circle Throw, and heavily damage it back, forcing it to rest again. Throh can't do anything back.
Throh does have a niche as a Fighting-type phazer, but it's pretty outclassed by something like Lickilicky whose role isn't limited to phazing, Resting and dying, and I'd even say the current metagame does it no favours with the rise of Jynx, Golurk and Swellow. Moreover, the support it requires it a bit too much; hazards are almost essential for it to do work. C-rank is where it should stay.
Also, saying Gurdurr is bad because it can't tank special hits is like saying Jynx is bad because she can't tank physical hits. You're not focusing on Gurdurr's strengths.
Its two viable sets are either ineffective or outclassed -- Bulk Up is outclassed by Gurdurr, who is able to hit hard and fast with Mach Punch and Drain Punch, and has overall greater physical bulk, and RestTalk is just ineffective because the two turns of randomness could mean a Jynx could switch in, have a 67% chance of not getting hit by Circle Throw, and heavily damage it back, forcing it to rest again. Throh can't do anything back.
Throh does have a niche as a Fighting-type phazer, but it's pretty outclassed by something like Lickilicky whose role isn't limited to phazing, Resting and dying, and I'd even say the current metagame does it no favours with the rise of Jynx, Golurk and Swellow. Moreover, the support it requires it a bit too much; hazards are almost essential for it to do work. C-rank is where it should stay.
Also, saying Gurdurr is bad because it can't tank special hits is like saying Jynx is bad because she can't tank physical hits. You're not focusing on Gurdurr's strengths.
Follow ups meant the pokemon that comes in when you phaze/KO a threat after taking its hit, thus the "follow up" attack.
What if SR is not set up? What if Charizard flinches you? What if you're asleep??? Then Throh doesn't fare any better than Gurdurr really. You still haven't dealt with the "Pelipper" you've mentioned prior either, and you're near dead, thus the "follow-up" attack after your phaze will KO you before you can do anything because you're too damn slow. That or you're forced to Rest (again), thus no Bulk Ups for you. <-- This situation applies much more than you'd think.
The reason why I've mentioned crits for Throh is because he is a bulky booster. This means he needs time to acquire boosts before he can pose a real threat, and it is the general consensus that bulky boosters should try to boost as little as possible and heal easily whenever possible for maximum efficiency and decrease the chances of a crit occuring overtime which will screw over your setup. Since Throh's method of recovery is RestTalk, Throh cannot heal again until he wakes up, he cannot reliably boost when asleep, and if he is critted within that period he usually cannot wake up in time to Rest again. Switching out Throh while he is asleep, as you know, resets the sleep counter, meaning if he has taken damage beforehand it will be even harder to survive the 3 attacks (4 if he switches in) he'll need to take from faster opponents if he wants to wake up to heal again. In the meantime, have fun with 4 Attack EVs Guts boosted Circle Throw which is hilariously weak, assuming you even pick it via Sleep Talk. There's also the slight issue that your coverage move (boosted Payback) is stronger than your STAB, so Throh really cannot hit hard before any boost, meaning at least a couple of Bulk Ups are near mandatory for Throh to function. If you really want a phazing Fighting-type, just use a Riolu. :P
Crits happen. If Musharna gets hit with a crit, it can usually get back into the swing of things with Recover. If Alomomola gets critted, Wish+Protect can usually save it. If Throh gets hit with a crit, all its boosts are ignored. It can't immediately respond with a Rest. If it's asleep, it can't use it. If it's awake, it'll be finished off before it can Rest. Throh is a great Pokemon in PU and decent in NU, but Gurdurr is better for everything that you would use either for. You're not going to be walling Charizard with either of them. It doesn't matter that Throh can survive a fire blast and Gurdurr can't. A Flying Gem powered Acrobatics or Air Slash will do the trick on either.
I will say that Flame Orb Throh is very, very, surprising. It's not necessarily the most Judo-esque set around, but it can be great. It can OHKO Golurk, even. EdgeQuake + Payback + your favorite fighting move isn't bad for coverage. It can't break Alomomola or Weezing, but it can crush some threats of middling defense. Samurott, for example, can be OHKO'd with either Revenge (assuming the doubling triggers) or Superpower.
Gimmicks aside, C-Rank is probably best for the mighty Bert.
Honestly though, I'd like to know what this "niche" is: all I see in Throh is a punching bag :cloud: that is somewhat awkward in execution. The stronger metagame does Throh no favors as most threats can 3HKO him, making RestTalk a bad idea to rely on. Throh's moves are all important, but Sleep Talk is much too uncooperative (working for you 1/3 of the time in general) for Throh to be considered reliable. Whenever I use this thing, I don't think I'm an unstoppable bulky shuffler, I just think: "I swear to god if you pick Rest / the wrong move again, you're dead to me, literally!" Throh can work, but 2/3 of the time Throh just doesn't get his shit together and spends the entire match sleeping his ass away, trying in vain to get past +2.
Throh has his own niche? As in he is the only bulky shuffler out there? No, there are others that compete with this...."role", such as Dragon Tail Meganium or Serperior, who have reliable recovery + Dual Screens and various other support moves such as Leech Seed or Glare / Body Slam. Licklicky makes a decent user as well. There's also Marvel Scale Dragonair, who boasts increased bulk (and Eviolite) while asleep, which can be crucial in the race to wake up again, not to mention Dragonair can boost too, and a speedy Sleep Talked boosted Dragon Tail looks mighty fine to me. Kangaskhan has access to Scrappy or Early Bird, allowing for unblockable Circle Throws or better RestTalk recovery respectively. Lopunny and Exploud get Circle Throw too, but we won't talk about them :P (at least they have helpful abilities!). Eelektross makes an....iffy user of Dragon Tail, but at least he has his STAB to fall back on if he needs to hit hard.
The main issue I have to address with Throh is his reliance on his phazing move, which is also his STAB. All the phazers I've mentioned above have other options to use such as their STAB, with the exception of Dragonair. However, the main difference between Dragonair and Throh is that Dragonair actually has some speed, enough to outpace most opposing phazers. What does this mean for Throh? What this means is if Throh is face to face with a faster phazer, Throh cannot do anything at all. You can't Bulk Up, you can't Circle Throw, Payback does very little because they are going second. You can Rest yes, but what would that acccomplish? This easily cemented my opinion that Throh needs too much to work with in order to be B-Rank: he's too slow, he needs to boost a lot, he doesn't have reliable recovery, he has 4MSS, meaning he'll have problems with a certain slew of threats, and he is totally helpless against a faster phazer. Gurdurr can do work just by smacking bitches, with no need to set up in most cases. Offensive Throh need to contend with the fact that they are losing health with the status orb they are wielding so as to not be weaker than Gurdurr, while Gurdurr regains health with Drain Punch and can revenge kill with Mach Punch. Oh and there's Sawk as well. I don't see much place for Throh in B-Rank really. He can work, but it's too much effort to make it worth as much as you say it is. Throh for C-Rank.
Swagger Liepard? That is beastly, how is it kind of bad?
The difference is that Liepard can rip teams with SwagPlay, doing enormous damage with Foul Play after a Swagger boost whereas Machoke is hitting hard with 100 BP DynamicPunch.
Either way, it is a considerable niche, so C-Rank makes sense
The difference is that Liepard can rip teams with SwagPlay, doing enormous damage with Foul Play after a Swagger boost whereas Machoke is hitting hard with 100 BP DynamicPunch.
Either way, it is a considerable niche, so C-Rank makes sense
I'll concede, Sub Dynamicpunch Machoke can be a complete asshole to fight against at times, because unlike Liepard he can actually take a hit and just smacks the target in the face with STAB right off the bat as opposed to Swaggering them (which puts Liepard at risk) in order to start the annoyance. It really does a good job at stealing the opponent's momentum, provided you can prevent exposing yourself to normally inaccurate attacks such as Will-o-Wisp or Hydro Pump which will cripple Machoke given its lack of recovery. C-Rank from me as well.
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Golbat needs to move up to B. In the same way as weezing, it's really gained from the change of meta as it's an outstanding wall to scolipede and most primeape variants. Inner focus now has it's use since scoli will try hitting you with rock slide. While golbat may have 3 more weaknesses than weezing, it's access to a faster taunt and most of all reliable recovery gives it a great niche over weezing that lets it beat every other wall of the tier bar musharna which it can still toxic without synchronoize activating unlike when weezing burns it. Many teams underestimate golbat and once the opponent's rock type is dead, it just becomes a total pain in the ass to take down (taunt + toxic + recovery + bulk is incredibly annoying), even swellow will not deal 50% with facade and misdreavus fails to outspeed it and taunt it first. B rank at least plz.
The thing about Sub-Dynamicpunch that's so infuriating, as UU players know from Machamp, is that you have to attack through confusion in order to break the Substitute. Machoke also has access to Payback for Ghosts and Psychics, good 80 / 70 / 60 bulk with Eviolite, and base 100 Atk with most Machokes being 252 Adamant. It may seem like a bad idea to have Substitute on a Pokemon with absolutely no recovery, but again, the fact that the opponent has to attack through confusion might be worth it. I could see it in C.
i agree with golbat moving up to b rank. its sheer bulk makes it really difficult to deal with and its relatively fast taunt means that it can mess up a lot of defensive teams. it also has a decently strong brave bird to discourage frail pokemon such as jynx from switching in. while golbat's typing is excellent for walling primeape and scolipede, it can also take attacks from the likes of kangaskhan, seismitoad, and physical samurott like a champ and stall them out with toxic.
I second Golbat for B-Rank. It's really a fantastic wall, with a great support movepool with moves like Haze, Taunt (of which he has the fastest of any wall in the tier, if I recall.), Super Fang, Hypnosis, and U-Turn to keep momentum after Taunting a wall, while still doing some decent damage coming off of Base 80 Attack (now, when I say decent, I really mean just decent.). It is also pretty damn fast, and being able to take hits from two of the three Base 95 drops and act accordingly is pretty awesome. Not to mention its typing is pretty great, allowing it to switch in on threatening pokes like Golurks without Stone Edge and Choiced variants of Sawk. Truly, Golbat is great in this meta, but he has some downsides, such as losing hard to Jynx for the most part. All in all, Golbat is great, and the shift only made him better.
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