ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[Fafnir]

After cotton guard and geomancy:
252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Unaware Clefable: 322-379 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even if it manages to get a CM off, it's still dying. The results are better against Scolipede (assuming Scolipede only stays in for two turns before passing), but in the time that Clefable needs to buff herself to beat Espeon's stored power, it'll still die.

I've been in this situation before. It's not pretty.

 

[WebBowser]

WebBowser The problem with that is that BPing stat boosts lets you come in with absolutely no damage, while a mon setting up by itself has to find a way to set up without losing all its health. The only time the situation you're referring to is correct is when another mon is boosting alongside you, which in a dedicated passing team situation, are dealt with by screens and memento if they start boosting straight away, or end up a turn behind because they have to switch in first.

That's almost as bad as saying that switching is free because you take no damage on the swap in. Here's a replay showing how significant getting hit on the switch can be: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-209344572

And yes I misplayed something awful that game, but the fact that opportunities to misplay even exist is a sign that there really isn't anything inherently uncompetitive about BP.

You should probably read this post on Mega Sableye, 1~54RRR.

Anywho, I'd actually like to see Baton Pass move suspected. Thought of this when the BP complex suspect thing was going on. The whole team archetype with Screens and/or Whimsicott is that much of pain to deal with. We have more than a hundred other things to prepare for. There just isn't enough room to intentionally build a team that beats it. Good players just don't prepare for it and that's why the BP teams exist: to pray on match up for an easy way out. Tried removing it twice before, but ya gotta cut it at the root. What are we going to do, wait for someone to win a tour match with a Pikachu team before this goes?

Also I don't care 'bout your "muh Nasty Plot+Baton Pass Celebi ain't broken". Collateral damage is just that. It's for the good of humanity the metagame. Besides, I can't use Swagger Rattata anymore, so there's that /rant

Edit: Or, at the posts below this one, we can just assume it's the move that's broken and get rid of it without making this so complicated
Edit 2: For RoyalDispenser: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/

Except you don't have to. BP only becomes uncompetetive when it's broken. You can't just take Denis' geopass team, stick in any old BPer, and expect to consistently win games(wcar, hilariously enough, helped us prove that with his gorebyss replay). The only reason geopass works at all is because Smeargle is broken. If Xernas were OU (which it isn't and shouldn't be), you could replace both Smeargle and Espeon with him and have a just as effective, if not more effective team.


Sergeant Spooky The issue is that if you allow something to just sit there and boost for 3 or 4 turns(roughly the amount of time it takes to get an obscene number of boosts) without throwing out your own countermeasure, you're getting outplayed and you should lose. BPers give out free turns like candy on Halloween. If you can't take advantage of those free turns, then you are doing something wrong. Smeargle is the exception simply because he doesn't need 3 or 4 turns, he needs 2, and can get one of those needed free turns with spore.


Zebstrika Atm, only one mon that we think is broken really fits that definition(judging from the replies on the thread). Nobody has really been able to prove that smashpass gorebyss or quiver pass venomoth is broken. Heck, I struggle to even prove scoli is broken. If there's only one or two broken BPers, we should prolly just ban those BPers.

 

[MANNAT]

Honestly, i feel like banning scolipede and smeargle is actually the best course of action at this point since they have little use outside of baton pass anyways. Smeargle is a niche hazard setter, but the same result can be achieved by getting 2 mons that have actual presence outside of hazard spreading and putting SR/sticky web or spikes on them. If scolipede can't pass its own boosts, then it might be a mediocre boosting sweeper that is frail enough to be one-shotted by more than half the tier and is flat outclassed by better options. Both of these mons are in BL anyways, so it wouldn't really affect the lower tiers much if i banned them. I know that I wanted a complex ban earlier in the thread, but after pondering on it I have realized that both of these Pokemon are so bad outside of baton pass that there's no point in making a separate complex ban for them.

 

[Toljik]

Honestly, i feel like banning scolipede and smeargle is actually the best course of action at this point since they have little use outside of baton pass anyways. Smeargle is a niche hazard setter, but the same result can be achieved by getting 2 mons that have actual presence outside of hazard spreading and putting SR/sticky web or spikes on them. If scolipede can't pass its own boosts, then it might be a mediocre boosting sweeper that is frail enough to be one-shotted by more than half the tier and is flat outclassed by better options. Both of these mons are in BL anyways, so it wouldn't really affect the lower tiers much if i banned them. I know that I wanted a complex ban earlier in the thread, but after pondering on it I have realized that both of these Pokemon are so bad outside of baton pass that there's no point in making a separate complex ban for them.

Shuckle is a Pokemon that is used only for setting up Sticky Web and Stealth Rock, and it's BL2. Deoxys-D was sent to Uber solely due to its efficiency in stacking hazards. It is incorrect to say that Smeargle is a bad hazard setter due to its lack of offensive presence, especially when its niche is having every single support move in the game.

However, I'm not sure that it's so great in this role that it's worth killing Baton Pass for.

 

[MANNAT]

Shuckle is a Pokemon that is used only for setting up Sticky Web and Stealth Rock, and it's BL2. Deoxys-D was sent to Uber solely due to its efficiency in stacking hazards. It is incorrect to say that Smeargle is a bad hazard setter due to its lack of offensive presence.

Deo-D isn't useless after it sets hazards, it can still cripple opponents with taunt and twave after it sets hazards, and it can also use a stalling set that functions as a wall after it sets up hazards. Shuckle can be used to cripple support mons with encore and toxic as well as being able to trap mons that can't touch it and knock off eviolites from chanseys and porygon2s (not as common after greninja ban) that are roaming around, and it's just a UU mon that isn't even that good in OU. I was discussing mons that are in OU specifically, and both of the mons that you listed have uses outside of stacking hazards, unlike smeargle who puts support mons to sleep so that it can set hazards. After that, smeargle curls up and dies because it doesn't have baton pass sets to use and basically becomes death fodder after opposing defoggers and spinners are killed.

 

[Toljik]

Deo-D isn't useless after it sets hazards, it can still cripple opponents with taunt and twave after it sets hazards, and it can also use a stalling set that functions as a wall after it sets up hazards. Shuckle can be used to cripple support mons with encore and toxic as well as being able to trap mons that can't touch it and knock off eviolites from chanseys and porygon2s (not as common after greninja ban) that are roaming around, and it's just a UU mon that isn't even that good in OU. I was discussing mons that are in OU specifically, and both of the mons that you listed have uses outside of stacking hazards, unlike smeargle who puts support mons to sleep so that it can set hazards. After that, smeargle curls up and dies because it doesn't have baton pass sets to use and basically becomes death fodder after opposing defoggers and spinners are killed.

There is plenty Smeargle can do after setting hazards down and putting an opponent to sleep. Memento helps a partner set up, while blocking Rapid Spin for a turn. Nuzzle paralyzes opponents, even if Smeargle is Taunted. Tailwind boosts the team's Speed. Final Gambit does agreeable damage.

 

[Alfalfa]

A Smeargle and Scolipede ban would be interesting, because they are not as metagame-defining as something like Aegislash, Mega Mawile, Greninja, or the Deoxys formes were, but I do agree that the points of concern they bring are a bit over the edge. However, it should be noted that only their Baton Pass sets are the game breaking sets, we have to really decide if banning these two Pokemon for their Baton Passing capabilities is really worth denying the use of their other sets in OU (I am mostly thinking of offensive Scolipede, which, though rare, fits on some teams).

 

[WebBowser]

Toljik Smeargle might have useful sets besides BP, in fact most ubers have useful, non-broken sets. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't ban it. Unless geopass suddenly stops being broken, then there is no reason to not ban Smeargle.

 

[MANNAT]

There is plenty Smeargle can do after setting hazards down and putting an opponent to sleep. Memento helps a partner set up, while blocking Rapid Spin for a turn. Nuzzle paralyzes opponents, even if Smeargle is Taunted. Tailwind boosts the team's Speed. Final Gambit does agreeable damage.

last time i checked, spore/stealth rock/spikes/filler is the standard hazard smeargle set, so smeargle only has one slot to do all of those things that you listed, and the two mons that I was talking about have two slots, and they can use an item slot to prevent taunt since they don't have paper-thin defenses.

 

[Toljik]

Toljik Smeargle might have useful sets besides BP, in fact most ubers have useful, non-broken sets. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't ban it. Unless geopass suddenly stops being broken, then there is no reason to not ban Smeargle.

Oh, absolutely, and I agreed a couple of posts ago that it may be necessary. I just think that "Smeargle has no other useful sets anyways" is a bad argument.

last time i checked, spore/stealth rock/spikes/filler is the standard hazard smeargle set, so smeargle only has one slot to do all of those things that you listed, and the two mons that I was talking about have two slots, and they can use an item slot to prevent taunt since they don't have paper-thin defenses.

If Smeargle didn't have an item slot to spare, its GeoPass set would not be usable.

 

[WebBowser]

Oh, absolutely, and I agreed a couple of posts ago that it may be necessary. I just think that "Smeargle has no other useful sets anyways" is a bad argument.

Fair enough. It's not always easy to keep track of what everyone's arguing (including myself).

Alfalfa Yeah, it's kind of rare for a mon to be banned that isn't metagame defining, but not unprecedented. Gen 4 Wobb, IIRC, was one such mon. I think part of the reason why geopass isn't defining the meta is just because of the massive stigma the community has put on the set, as well as the fact that geopass smeargle isn't just something you can slap onto any team and expect to win. As stated earlier though, we don't protect broken mons with complex bans just to preserve their non-broken sets, even if they have competitive value. Genesect is a prime example of this.

Also, virtually every other ban proposal on this thread is going to have a lot more collateral then simply offing Smeargle and/or Scolipede.

 

[Ary]

Fair enough. It's not always easy to keep track of what everyone's arguing (including myself).

Alfalfa Yeah, it's kind of rare for a mon to be banned that isn't metagame defining, but not unprecedented. Gen 4 Wobb, IIRC, was one such mon. I think part of the reason why geopass isn't defining the meta is just because of the massive stigma the community has put on the set, as well as the fact that geopass smeargle isn't just something you can slap onto any team and expect to win. As stated earlier though, we don't protect broken mons with complex bans just to preserve their non-broken sets, even if they have competitive value. Genesect is a prime example of this.

Also, virtually every other ban proposal on this thread is going to have a lot more collateral then simply offing Smeargle and/or Scolipede.

Not sure if wobb is the best paralell to make because it was banned because it actually broke the game, you were guarenteed a free trap because team preview didn't exist. Gen 4 wobb meant that you got a guarenteed kill (obviously not 100% of the time) just because it existed, every game. As opposed to geopass which is a weak and not very reliable archetype overall that relies on praying for a good match up and trying to generate free turns to have a chance at winning. Being a metagame defining force doesn't matter when the mechanics of the game break itself, I'm p sure geopass doesn't do that.

 

[AM]

Not sure if wobb is the best paralell to make because it was banned because it actually broke the game, you were guarenteed a free trap because team preview didn't exist. Gen 4 wobb meant that you got a guarenteed kill (obviously not 100% of the time) just because it existed, every game. As opposed to geopass which is a weak and not very reliable archetype overall that relies on praying for a good match up and trying to generate free turns to have a chance at winning. Being a metagame defining force doesn't matter when the mechanics of the game break itself, I'm p sure geopass doesn't do that.

Considering we've spent months tinkering away at concepts to mitigate the issues with BP for awhile now, you don't really have to pray too much for a good match-up if anything geopass is the favorable match-up to almost most relevant play-styles and threats. The majority of clauses correlated to BP amplified the issue in shedding light that a simple clause based on a complex ban of sorts wasn't able to slow down the progression of its effectiveness. Geopass might not "break mechanics" fully but the combination of everything provided within the archetype creates threats that are able to take advantage of the loopholes that allow mediocrity such as Espeon to be extremely potent with the support provided by these passers. I know it sounds dumb to "ban Smeargle" cause just thinking of that will make people scratch their heads but if the support it provides creates a very unbalanced match-up and problem to the meta-game then it needs to be considered that we can remove elements that aren't broken from a threat level but more so of a support level as well.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

we are all forgetting something. now baton pass based on smeargle (with cotongeopass he is the most dangerous with diference, we already commented it) can't use substitute to block Dragon Tail. it should disrupt any baton pass attempt if used with care.

You seem to be missing something: what you keep promoting is not how to beat Baton Pass teams (for reference I mean Denisss's GeoPass team) but how to counter-team them. Counter-teaming that team is not especially difficult. In fact I doubt a full stall team build around Mega Sableye has any issue at all thanks to phazing and Magic Bounce and has the benefit of being useful on the ladder. However, not every one wants to run that. Not everyone wants to run a set-up sweeper with substitute since that is limited to a small number of mons. Not everyone can carry phazing moves because they are a huge momentum killer and are usually unnecessary if you can maintain offensive momentum or use Taunt, which can generate a free turn with enough speed.

As for the BP issue, I was ready to come up with a long counter-argument for complex bans to keep Smeargle and Scolipede. My issue is that as I was formulating my thoughts, my base arguments were forming along the lines of "Scolipede is only broken with BP and Speed Boost, so let's get rid of BP and Speed Boost on the same set". Similarly Smeargle's argument was along the lines of "Smeargle is only broken with BP and Geomancy or Shell Smash, so let's ban BP + Geomancy and Shell Smash". However, when I thought about it, I asked myself, "How is this different than saying 'Greninja is only broken with Protean, so let's ban Protean' or 'Aegislash is only broken with King's Shield, so let's ban King's Shield?'" and when I thought about, I realized the arguments were nearly identical. In fact, it seemed even more ridiculous that we didn't want to ban just Protean on Greninja, yet in order to preserve two BL mons, we want to come up with even more complicated bans than just banning Protean.

Once I realized this, I found myself agreeing with WebBowser; why are we bending backwards to keep two mons in the tier when we have not done so before, nor have we even entertained the thought? I'll admit, losing Smash Pass Smeargle and LO Cleaner Scolipede sucks, but as far as I can tell the only other options are ban Baton Pass altogether, which seems draconian, come up with rather convoluted complex bans (no passing more than X number of positive boosts), or come up with multiple complex bans just to keep 2 mons and a niche style in OU. Besides, if you really want to use Smash Pass, there's still Gorebyss and Huntail (neither of which have Spore to generate free turns), and there are still plenty of ways to use Quick Passing. As far as I can tell, WebBowser's proposal makes the most people happy while avoiding a bunch of particularly complex bans.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Sergeant Spooky The issue is that if you allow something to just sit there and boost for 3 or 4 turns(roughly the amount of time it takes to get an obscene number of boosts) without throwing out your own countermeasure, you're getting outplayed and you should lose. BPers give out free turns like candy on Halloween. If you can't take advantage of those free turns, then you are doing something wrong. Smeargle is the exception simply because he doesn't need 3 or 4 turns, he needs 2, and can get one of those needed free turns with spore.

I only suggest it because we have people who think losing to Baton Pass in any way is unacceptable and that banning Smeargle and Scolipede won't accomplish anything, because they'll just be replaced by Gorebyss or whatever, thus banning the move is the sole solution that would work.

Besides, what can actually pass more than six boosts besides Smeargle and Scolipede? Smashing more than once means the recipient gets S/DEF drops. Venomoth is never going to get more than a couple QD boosts under normal conditions (so no screens+memento+tailwind support.) Boosts cap out at six per stat, and the number of pokemon that can boost multiple stats and not get KOed/phazed/taunted in the process is very low.

 

[Merritt]

For a less familiar example, consider the following Gorebyss set:

Gorebyss @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Baton Pass
- Iron Defense
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump

Gorebyss, with her decent 55/105/75 bulk, will get the opportunity to setup on many defensive mons (especially with team support). At +2 SPA and speed, STAB hydro pump is actually really threatening and by itself is enough to stop most taunters, phasers, and opposing setup sweepers. Additionally, post SS she is actually pretty fast at 280 speed (I'm sure these EVs can and should be optimized), meaning that she can outspeed many physical swap ins and start boosting up with ID, allowing her to tank quite a few hits right there. Baton Pass allows her to escape anything she cannot kill off with hydro pump (for example, being at low hp vs a Bisharp). Ideally, you would pass off to either a mixed sweeper like mega diancie or a magic bouncer like Espeon or M-Absol.

I agree that there are certainly issues with figuring out what exactly makes Baton Pass strategies broken, but I don't really think Gorebyss can really pull of BrokenPass nearly as well as Scolipede or Smeargle. It struggles to come in, due to its barely passable (ha i'm so punny) bulk, since honestly 55/105/75 isn't good, and even then has a tough time getting that first boost off because of its low speed. Smeargle and Scolipede both have useable speed (somewhat in Smeargle's case) but Gorebyss has pathetic speed. If you don't switch in on something with either very low speed or something that doesn't threaten Gorebyss at all (which honestly isn't all too much) then Gorebyss will be taking a hit before getting off any sort of boost whatsoever. Even after a SS it still has low speed, requiring a good amount of investment to outspeed offensive mons.

Ultimately I'm not convinced Gorebyss would be threatening enough. Feel free to prove me wrong – I'm not opposed to banning it too if it proves broken – but at the moment I think just Scolipede and Smeargle should be suspected.

EDIT: As for banning Baton Pass, I think it's a really bad idea. It's not uncompetitive (hell CancerPass isn't uncompetitive, just broken) and so banning it would be setting a precedent that we really don't want to set. All other banned moves (Swagger, OHKO, Evasion) make the game more luck based and therefore uncompetitive, but Baton Pass doesn't do that. It just is a part of a few strategies that are ridiculously powerful if set up right. Why not just ban Iron Defense, Shell Smash, and Geomancy? (Don't actually do that.) After all, they're part of the unhealthy strategies of Baton Pass.

 

[Zebstrika]

Zebstrika Atm, only one mon that we think is broken really fits that definition(judging from the replies on the thread). Nobody has really been able to prove that smashpass gorebyss or quiver pass venomoth is broken. Heck, I struggle to even prove scoli is broken. If there's only one or two broken BPers, we should prolly just ban those BPers.

I agree that Smeargle is the only broken baton passer*, but there are some people who think that a lot of pokemon could work on denisssssss' geopass team, and if there really were a huge number of problematic pokemon I think a ban on baton passing with more than 1 type of boost would cover all of them with pretty minimal collateral.

*Smeargle is the only broken baton passer under the current system where only 1 baton pass user is allowed. But I definitely believe that a broken 6-bp team can be created without Smeargle (like, Scolipede + Vaporeon + Sylveon + Zapdos + Mr Mime + Espeon is pretty broken imo). Banning baton pass with more than 1 type of boost would kill the chains while allowing us to lift the 1 bp user clause, while banning Smeargle alone would not allow us to lift that clause.

 

[WebBowser]

I agree that Smeargle is the only broken baton passer*, but there are some people who think that a lot of pokemon could work on denisssssss' geopass team, and if there really were a huge number of problematic pokemon I think a ban on baton passing with more than 1 type of boost would cover all of them with pretty minimal collateral.

*Smeargle is the only broken baton passer under the current system where only 1 baton pass user is allowed. But I definitely believe that a broken 6-bp team can be created without Smeargle (like, Scolipede + Vaporeon + Sylveon + Zapdos + Mr Mime + Espeon is pretty broken imo). Banning baton pass with more than 1 type of boost would kill the chains while allowing us to lift the 1 bp user clause, while banning Smeargle alone would not allow us to lift that clause.

It's true that once we think about raising the BP cap (which is one of my goals), things will start becoming a heck of a lot more complicated, and previously unbroken mons may find themselves a broken niche. I haven't thought too much on how to do this gracefully (which I probably should've), but I think the best way to do this is gradually. Let's start with raising the cap to 2 or 3, see if any broken teams crop up from that, and then move on from there. IIRC, Denis' 3 mon BP team utilized duel screens Deo-S, which is itself a broken mon, not to mention that the meta was very different back then then it is now. So I'm afraid that I cannot predict at this time what raising the cap would do, I can only say that it really should be done, or at least tested.

As for the "large number of people" who believe that lots of mons can work with Geopass, let them provide evidence (or at least arguments) that this is the case. I personally think that they are either bluffing or are allowing their biases to cloud their judgement.



Sergeant Spooky Yes... and we also have people who hate losing to stall for any reason. Disliking a playstyle has never been a reason to ban it or any of the mons that enable it. Being broken, however, is. That is why I have been advocating for Scolipede and Smeargle bans, because I believe them to be broken (I'm starting to have doubts on Scoli though).

I agree that there are certainly issues with figuring out what exactly makes Baton Pass strategies broken, but I don't really think Gorebyss can really pull of BrokenPass nearly as well as Scolipede or Smeargle. It struggles to come in, due to its barely passable (ha i'm so punny) bulk, since honestly 55/105/75 isn't good, and even then has a tough time getting that first boost off because of its low speed. Smeargle and Scolipede both have useable speed (somewhat in Smeargle's case) but Gorebyss has pathetic speed. If you don't switch in on something with either very low speed or something that doesn't threaten Gorebyss at all (which honestly isn't all too much) then Gorebyss will be taking a hit before getting off any sort of boost whatsoever. Even after a SS it still has low speed, requiring a good amount of investment to outspeed offensive mons.

Ultimately I'm not convinced Gorebyss would be threatening enough. Feel free to prove me wrong – I'm not opposed to banning it too if it proves broken – but at the moment I think just Scolipede and Smeargle should be suspected.

EDIT: As for banning Baton Pass, I think it's a really bad idea. It's not uncompetitive (hell CancerPass isn't uncompetitive, just broken) and so banning it would be setting a precedent that we really don't want to set. All other banned moves (Swagger, OHKO, Evasion) make the game more luck based and therefore uncompetitive, but Baton Pass doesn't do that. It just is a part of a few strategies that are ridiculously powerful if set up right. Why not just ban Iron Defense, Shell Smash, and Geomancy? (Don't actually do that.) After all, they're part of the unhealthy strategies of Baton Pass.

You may be right, however there is one thing you should be aware of. As Smeargle has shown us, it doesn't matter how weak a mon may be initially, if it can become broken given a single free turn, then you can make a team that will hand him that free turn on a silver platter. Therefore, you need to argue that Gorebyss isn't broken even if it is given a free turn. I'm certainly not saying "Gorebyss is broken", I'm saying "we should watch out for Gorebyss, because it actually looks kinda scary on paper". When I feel like it, I'll probably try building a team around her and see what happens. Scoli's starting to prove boring and rather unproductive.

*edit*

Sergeant Spooky As for BPers that can pass 6 or more boosts, most viable boosting sets can pull it off given the right circumstances. Here's a few sample sets:

Gorebyss @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Baton Pass
- Iron Defense
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump

Takes ~ 2 turns to surpass 6 boosts

Boosts very fast and has good offensive presence to boot.
Bad stats outside of SPA hinder it.

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Baton Pass
- Rock Polish
- Iron Defense
- Taunt

Takes ~ 4 turns to surpass 6 boosts (mfw Mew doesn't learn agility).
Has some pretty good bulk to go with it.

Venomoth @ Black Sludge
Ability: Wonder Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Baton Pass
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz

Takes ~ 3 turns to surpass 6 boosts
Wonder Skin and Sleep Powder both can help buy some time.

 

[bludz]

BP chains are far worse than Smeargle or Scolipede alone. One of the biggest reasons I quit during BW actually.

I am not against allowing Baton Pass to be used on more than one pokemon per team. But I think if a pokemon is Baton Passed to then it should not be allowed to use the move Baton Pass itself. Granted this in itself just another weird complex ban which is already covered by the current clause.

I've been seeing this "ban more than 1 type of boost + BP" suggestion and I find it weird because what's the problem with Celebi passing Calm Minds to Heatran? I don't see one. Can't limit to just 1 boosting move because that still allows Geomancy and Speed Boosts too.

All in all I really just think we should get rid of Smeargle and probably Scolipede, then worry about more broken passers if they come up.

 

[Toljik]

If this Baton Pass team archetype needs Stored Power to overwhelm its checks, and Stored Power is only used on Baton Pass teams (and terrible Sigilyph and Swoobat sets), why not just ban Stored Power? It has less "legitimate" uses than Baton Pass.

You want to pass huge stat boosts to Sylveon and Espeon? Fine. But they're not going to use a 200 Base Power move to sweep.

 

[bludz]

Because although Espeon is the best pass recipient and Stored Power is its strongest move,

a) Espeon doesn't NEED to be the BP recipient, it's just the most reliable because of Magic Bounce. Gardevoir and many other wallbreakers and sweepers can slice through teams with a bunch of boosts
b) if Espeon gets enough boosts, Psychic will be sweeping anyway since you cant KO it without a crit

Also the move Stored Power isn't inherently broken so even if that did fix the problem it would be the wrong way to fix it

 

[Toljik]

Because although Espeon is the best pass recipient and Stored Power is its strongest move,

a) Espeon doesn't NEED to be the BP recipient, it's just the most reliable because of Magic Bounce
b) if Espeon gets enough boosts, Psychic will be sweeping anyway since you cant KO it without a crit

Also the move Stored Power isn't inherently broken so even if that did fix the problem it would be the wrong way to fix it

Stored Power is the only way a BP recipient can stop Unaware users. It pushes the team over the edge, the way Gunk Shot and Low Kick did for Greninja. Every ban we can make here has collateral damage, and banning Stored Power does the least.

Besides, Baton Pass isn't inherently broken either.

 

[bludz]

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
EDIT: ^ Changed the above calc because nobody runs Timid 232 SpA Gardevoir it was just the default in the calculator

If you run specially defensive Unaware users (lol?), a strong physical attacker will still be able to work you over

Edit: I don't think Baton Pass is inherently broken and I don't think we should ban the move Baton Pass

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Yeah but then we're going back to the full BP team days where overcentralization took place and we needed to run haze/unaware users on every team. Banning stored power doesn't do anything but hurt the viability of a couple sweepers like mega latias. Anything can sweep with the right boost, stored power is just one viable move on several viable pokemon.. it can easily be replaced, even those that use it can still stall with recovery and insane bulk while using other psychic stabs like psyshock and psychic.

 

[Toljik]

Yeah but then we're going back to the full BP team days where overcentralization took place and we needed to run haze/unaware users on every team. Banning stored power doesn't do anything but hurt the viability of a couple sweepers like mega latias. Anything can sweep with the right boost, stored power is just one viable move on several viable pokemon.. it can easily be replaced, even those that use it can still stall with recovery and insane bulk while using other psychic stabs like psyshock and psychic.

Psychic is so underpowered compared to Stored Power that it's like taking Huge Power away from Azumarill. Anything benefits from a boost, but we are all talking about one specific team that uses a handful of specific sweepers.