The issue is that this doesn't fix the problem. It's just removing Stored Power because it slightly reduces the number of viable Baton Pass teams.
However, Stored Power is not a broken move, so banning it would be a Very Bad Idea.
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ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter haunter
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However, Stored Power is not a broken move, so banning it would be a Very Bad Idea.
p2
Banned deucer.
Wouldn't just banning the moves Iron Defense, Geomancy and Cotton Guard or even Stored Power solve the majority of the issues of Baton Pass? Nothing seriously runs ID and Geomancy outside of BP and Cotton Guard is a gimmicky move on Mega Altaria / Ampharos. Stored Power is a move that's pretty much only used by Mega Latias.
I think a move ban this time would be a better way of tackling Baton Pass, as they aren't complex and they don't completely ruin viability for most pokemon involved (Smeargle can still act as a lead, Scolipede can still quickpass with SD etc). But banning Baton Pass itself is a bad idea as you hurt Pokemon who rely on it to escape Pursuit trapping
I think a move ban this time would be a better way of tackling Baton Pass, as they aren't complex and they don't completely ruin viability for most pokemon involved (Smeargle can still act as a lead, Scolipede can still quickpass with SD etc). But banning Baton Pass itself is a bad idea as you hurt Pokemon who rely on it to escape Pursuit trapping
And we didn't ban Gunk Shot, Low Kick or Protean, we banned Greninja.
Baton Pass is tricky as it entirely dependent on the pokemon who abuses it, Smeargle in particular can pass whatever boosts it sees fits but most mons don't have that luxury and usually are only able to pass a single Nasty Plot or a sub. Like you said Baton Pass isn't inherently broken, hence why I think it is better to focus on the abusers rather than the move itself.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
No, because the problem is not the boosting move, it is Baton Pass
It's neither, its the users of the move (Smeargle and Scoliepede)
While that's true, that doesn't justify altogether banning already mediocre Pokémon. The problem is Baton Pass and those 'mons only when they are used together. I am in full support of a complex ban for Smeargle+Baton Pass and Scolipede+Baton Pass because those Pokémon aren't problematic used any other way.
We didn't ban Blaziken+Speed Boost, we banned Blaziken. We didn't ban Greninja+Protean+Gunk Shot, we banned Greninja. It should be no different here, complex bans are pointless, they open up way to many loopholes in the banning system, (If we do this, we are going to have to do stupid shit like unbanning Defensive Deoxys-D and Level 70 Kyogre) and the vast majority of the time are just plain out dumb
Of course we didn't, because Gunk Shot and Low Kick are common moves used in every tier.
Stored Power is used on a Swoobat set in FU, Mega Latias and that BLOOD TOTEM set Showderp has a hardon for. No complex ban, minimal collateral damage, and several very dangerous Baton Pass recipients are neutered with it gone without then being kicked into Ubers. The recipients of Baton Pass matter just as much as the users of the move.
Or hell, why not Iron Defense or Cotton Guard? Nobody with an ELO score above 1200 uses those outside of Baton Pass, and they are just as instrumental to this strategy.
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Fair enough, you have a point. I just like options, you know? And who's to say we can't draw a line to where a complex ban is just stupid? In gen 5 we banned Drizzle+Swift Swim after all.
A complex ban is stupid if you have to do stuff like ban parts of a single pokemon instead of just the pokemon in general. Also at the time that clause was made people thought that rain was not inheritly broken (I haven't played Gen 5 but from what I here thats not true), it's just Swift Swim abusers where, Swift Swim+Drizzle was done because thats what was believed to the problem, and that banning Drizzle alone would do more harm than good (Again, I here thats not true), while in turn banning these two will do more good than harm
That's great and all, but Smogon cannot change its ban philosophy only because Users like having more options, if you want to use Blaziken, you can still do so in Uber, VGC, Smogon Doubles and the Battle Spot Metagames.
Besides, Drizzle+Swift Swim was done only because it would solve Drizzle's main problem without banning Drizzle, quoting The Smog (28) article about it:
Besides, there are many users whom to this day believe that the complex ban wasn't the right choice, so it's not really the best argument one could use.
Because they are not broken moves.
How are you able to justify banning something that's not broken? It helps out with Baton Pass brokenness, but those moves in themselves are not broken. Neither is Baton Pass. It doesn't matter how often or where they're used, but if it's not broken we should not ban it.
We can't look at collateral damage when suspecting/banning something, either way. Saying we should ban Stored Power because it will have little collateral damage is just as flawed an argument as saying we shouldn't ban something because it hurts things in lower tiers.
As for Iron Defense and Cotton Guard, they do have legitimate uses, even if they're not exactly the best moves ever. Altaria, for example, has an option of a CG set. Banning them is once again banning something that isn't broken and might not even hit the root of the problem.
Sure, but how the hell is banning Smeargle and Scolipede gonna cause more good than harm as opposed to complex banning those two Pokémon+BP? If anything, straight up banning them will simply leave you with less teambuilding options, whereas you could eliminate what is problematic and still keep them in the metagame.
Okay, before we go into banning anything. I have one serious general question about how you all are handling this "situation"
Do you carry any sort of phazer?
Do you carry any sort of phazer?
Magic Bounce Espeon, plus Offensive teams can't afford them since they kill momentum.
p2
Banned deucer.
Magic Bounce Espeon behind a Sub screws over any form of phazing
That's the "ban Protean+Greninja or Speed Boost+Blaziken" argument, and it's been stated before that it will not happen. The merits of such are best not discussed in this thread.
Ok, dealing with Geopass is a little bit tricky, but if you let it go behind a sub, it's your mistake for letting it get behind a sub...
And guess what? Just because we complex ban one of these things in this type of situation does not mean we have to do any more. That argument is a blatantly a slippery slope fallacy, so please just fucking cut the crap.
It sets a new precedent for how we're allowed to ban things, so it's a completely valid arguement.
No it's not. Oh, it's a "new" precedent? What, are you afraid of change or something?
I would agree 100% with that quote if it were for an arbitrary reason. In this case, it obviously does more harm than good to completely ban Smeargle and Scolipede; it leaves you with less teambuilding options where you can still eliminate what we are finding to be problematic and keep more Pokémon in the metagame available by doing a complex ban.
I already addressed this, just because we do it in one situation doesn't mean we absolutely have to do it elsewhere. Regardless, that doesn't mean banning Protean Gren or Speed Boost Blaziken is a bad idea. It's a good idea when you really get down to it, but there's no way we can convince smogon to change bans they've already made and I'd rather focus on the issue at hand.
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