Pre-bank Doubles Viability Rankings (outdated)

[youngjake93]

Just curious how exactly does Charizard check rain?

Once it mega evolves, Politoed can switch in safely, and even better catch it going for Solarbeam

Same goes for ttar, even though yeah Focus Blast is scary

Sand has Exacdrill, and Rain has Ludicolo and Kingdra. Sun has always had the problem of not having a good Chlorophyll user.

Youngjake93 while I agree with most of your points,
"Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support."
Do take this into account.

You shouldn't be mega evolving before toed switches in...
And CharizardY checks Rain by essentially being neutral to Water with 78/115 special bulk and ability to utilize Solarbeam. The whole making the opponent play in Sun things checks Rain by itself. Also, Charizard X is neutral to Water with access to Thunder Punch.

Also, I could see Volcarona being compared to Charizard if it weren't for the fact that it has Drought, Focus Blast+Solar Beam>>>>Bug Buzz+Giga Drain, Charizard Y has more itemless power+bulk and Charizard X exists too. Speaking of which, CharX has Belly Drum, SD, DD and much better STABs than Volc if you're look at boosting sets

Btw: I'm pretty sure I've seen Charizard break top 20 usage in gen V doubles before... And Mawile+Kanga made S rank, so the idea that "oh Charizard is easy to play around because I know ahead of time that it will either transform into having drought and 159 sAtt with one of the best STAB spreads OR having a great typing with 130 Att+sheer force equivalent" is funny

Plus it seems like a lot of people don't take into account that you can use Protect with Charizard while the opponent doesn't have that luxury because Heat Wave will still hit their partner. Wide Guard you can see coming from a mile away due to distribution

 

[BlankZero]

Btw: I'm pretty sure I've seen Charizard break top 20 usage in gen V doubles before...

This is the gen 5 ladder we're talking about.

 

[cxinlee]

You shouldn't be mega evolving before toed switches in...
And CharizardY checks Rain by essentially being neutral to Water with 78/115 special bulk and ability to utilize Solarbeam. The whole making the opponent play in Sun things checks Rain by itself. Also, Charizard X is neutral to Water with access to Thunder Punch.

Also, I could see Volcarona being compared to Charizard if it weren't for the fact that it has Drought, Focus Blast+Solar Beam>>>>Bug Buzz+Giga Drain, Charizard Y has more itemless power+bulk and Charizard X exists too. Speaking of which, CharX has Belly Drum, SD, DD and much better STABs than Volc if you're look at boosting sets

Btw: I'm pretty sure I've seen Charizard break top 20 usage in gen V doubles before... And Mawile+Kanga made S rank, so the idea that "oh Charizard is easy to play around because I know ahead of time that it will either transform into having drought and 159 sAtt with one of the best STAB spreads OR having a great typing with 130 Att+sheer force equivalent" is funny

Plus it seems like a lot of people don't take into account that you can use Protect with Charizard while the opponent doesn't have that luxury because Heat Wave will still hit their partner. Wide Guard you can see coming from a mile away due to distribution

I don't see anyone dumb enough to switch in toed when Charizard hasn't mega evolved. If he refuses to mega evolve just kill him with Kingdra then.

Are we talking about CharY or CharX?

Anyway I'm agreeing with Pocket about CharY

It looks good on paper, but on practice it just really isn't that good (I tried it)

I think it barely reaches S rank, mainly due to its sheer power

 

[Jec]

I dont think that charY directly checks rain, but it seriusly destroys a rain team's momentum.

 

[Speedholes]

It isn't mentioned anywhere in the OP, but I'd like to nominate Crawdaunt for B rank, possibly A rank alongside Azumarill.

Thanks to Adaptability its Aqua Jet is stronger than Azumarill's, and it is one of the best abusers of the newly buffed Crabhammer and Knock Off. Knock Off in particular is incredibly hard to switch into for anything not named Scrafty or Hitmontop, and even they don't appreciate losing a held item (Or, in Scrafty's case, risking switching into Superpower). In my opinion it's at least as good as Azumarill with a Choice Band set while offering slightly more support thanks to Knock Off, but I could see it being B rank since Water/Dark is worse defensively (and arguably offensively but 2xSTAB Knock Off owns bones) than Water/Fairy because of the Fighting weakness.

Also its Speed is really neat. 55 base speed is slow enough to abuse Trick Room, but also fast enough that it can appreciate Tailwind or Thunderwave support. With a neutral nature and 252 Speed EVs, Crawdaunt outspeeds uninvested Rotom-A and everything slower.

 

[BlankZero]

It isn't mentioned anywhere in the OP, but I'd like to nominate Crawdaunt for B rank, possibly A rank alongside Azumarill.

Thanks to Adaptability its Aqua Jet is stronger than Azumarill's, and it is one of the best abusers of the newly buffed Crabhammer and Knock Off. Knock Off in particular is incredibly hard to switch into for anything not named Scrafty or Hitmontop, and even they don't appreciate losing a held item (Or, in Scrafty's case, risking switching into Superpower). In my opinion it's at least as good as Azumarill with a Choice Band set while offering slightly more support thanks to Knock Off, but I could see it being B rank since Water/Dark is worse defensively (and arguably offensively but 2xSTAB Knock Off owns bones) than Water/Fairy because of the Fighting weakness.

Also its Speed is really neat. 55 base speed is slow enough to abuse Trick Room, but also fast enough that it can appreciate Tailwind or Thunderwave support. With a neutral nature and 252 Speed EVs, Crawdaunt outspeeds uninvested Rotom-A and everything slower.

Gonna say maybe B rank at best. Azumarril gets Huge Power Fairy/Water STABs, with a great deal of bulk, which is awesome compared to Crawdaunt's frailty.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Ok, some updates here:

• Charizard to S rank
• Breloom to B Rank
• Gastrodon added to B rank
• Escavalier added to C rank
• Chansey added to D rank

Resume your nominations :)

 

[BlankZero]

Any room for Imposter Scarf Ditto in C/B rank? Stealing your opponents Sweeper can be greatly beneficial in Counter Teaming efforts, like taking your opponent's Kingdra/Excadrill or grabbing something that was giving you issues (Metagross got a few MM boosts, or a Gastrodon is walling you with Stockpile :p ).

While it means giving up a spot for something situational, most teams for Doubles are built with 4 in mind with 2 to provide patches and synergy, and Ditto can pretty well fill that niche.

 

[Magcargo]

I haven't played XY Doubles yet, but shouldn't Mega evolutions receive separate ranking from their normal forms? For example, I could say that Mega Charizard Y is S-Rank, Mega Chrizard X is A or B Rank and regular Charizard is D or E Rank. This could help us understand whether a Pokemon's normal form is worth using outside of Mega evolution and help newer players understand seemingly underwhelming Pokemon (outside of their Mega-Evos) are at a high ranking.

Sorry if this is confusing.

 

[Audiosurfer]

I haven't played XY Doubles yet, but shouldn't Mega evolutions receive separate ranking from their normal forms? For example, I could say that Mega Charizard Y is S-Rank, Mega Chrizard X is A or B Rank and regular Charizard is D or E Rank. This could help us understand whether a Pokemon's normal form is worth using outside of Mega evolution and help newer players understand seemingly underwhelming Pokemon (outside of their Mega-Evos) are at a high ranking.

Sorry if this is confusing.

Yeah, it's a bit confusing as well as kinda inelegant. However the problem you're addressing is valid, and I have been considering it. What I'll likely do is implement Arcticblast's suggestion where an asterisk will be used to indicate a Pokemon ranked solely on the merits of their mega form.

 

[Joycdonnell]

I haven't played Smogon Doubles XY yet but many multibattles at PSS, and have to tell that
Staraptor is worth to mention it (C or D rank), is like an Intimidate Salamance except that has
STAB Brave Bird and Close Combat (to those Tyranitars).

Also Mega Lucario is a nice cleaner with Extremespeed and Close combat (save me alot of
being prey of Talonflame and Blaziken), can know Earthquake and Rock Slide. I don't know
what rank gets but not E pokemon at least XD!

 

[Nollan]

Just to add a few unnoticed threats to the list early on:

- B Rank. It is fairly bulky with 90 / 87 / 85 defenses, and can use a efficient 75 base SpA along with LO to dish out heavy damage with Blizzard, Earth Power, and probably a billion other moves. Also capable of providing some useful Helping Hand support. It is however held back in that powerful spread attacks can OHKO/2HKO it (Blizzard, Muddy Water, EQ, YZard Heat Wave), and its tendency to use Blizzard which makes it highly reliant on hail support to function (and weather wars these days are often very wild with sun on the rise in usage).

- C Rank. Basically the same story as Nidoqueen, except it tends to be built more offensively. Mostly outclassed by Nidoqueen imo, unfortunately.

- C Rank. Can be pretty useful with a Choice Scarf set, and has plenty of coverage options. It is outclassed by Tyranitar in most cases though, who has much better bulk on the special side (probably a bit more on the physical side as well).

- C Rank. Nice way to put a stop to Talonflame which is really probably one of the few reasons you would use it. Tough Claws boosted Razor Shell and Cross Chop are also pretty nice, though. Tyranitar sorta outclasses it as well, though it has Fighting-type coverage whereas Tyranitar lost Low Kick and Superpower. And Water-type STAB is pretty cool if Ground-types are ruining your day.

- B Rank. Thanks to Mega Launcher it essentially gets STAB on Dragon Pulse, Dark Pulse, and Aura Sphere. It also has Muddy Water, giving it a STAB spread moves that doesn't have drawbacks (pointing at Surf right now). Along with 71 / 88 / 89 defenses and a nice base 120 SpA, this thing can make for a nice tank. Unfortunately it requires a LO to get the KOs it needs, which really hurts its bulk. And Rotom-W, which is exceedingly common, can easily 2HKO it no matter what spread it runs (the rare Specs Rotom set OHKOs; Clawitzer can 2HKO the standard bulky Rotom-W if it holds LO, so it can beat most Rotom-W one-on-one if Trick Room is up).

 

[Deoxymoron]

I still think that Hippowdon deserves B rank. At least put it somewhere on the OP.

 

[Arcticblast]

But... what does Hippowdon even do? Sure it has Sand Stream and Slack Off, but it doesn't have the offensive presence to be a threat and it's really vulnerable to Taunt and Will-O-Wisp. It can't do anything to Charizard and Rotom-W, two of the S-rank Pokemon, and is neutered by ten of the A-rank Pokemon, either through Intimidate, Ground immunity, or having a super effective typing.

I'm just not seeing Hippowdon.

 

[Jec]

I haven't had the most experience in doubles, but i'm wondering why is dragonite not on the list?

I mean, it can be a decent check to some pokes in the higher tier. It can take down CharY with a thunder/thunderbolt, charX and the dragons with dragon moves, mawile with fireblast, azumarill, gyarados and togekiss with thunder. Plus he has a lot of moves for coverage. I know that multiscale is not tge best in doubles, But it guarantees that an attack from him will happen.

Just my opinion, since dragonite has always been a favorite :)

 

[noobcubed]

I haven't had the most experience in doubles, but i'm wondering why is dragonite not on the list?

I mean, it can be a decent check to some pokes in the higher tier. It can take down CharY with a thunder/thunderbolt, charX and the dragons with dragon moves, mawile with fireblast, azumarill, gyarados and togekiss with thunder. Plus he has a lot of moves for coverage. I know that multiscale is not tge best in doubles, But it guarantees that an attack from him will happen.

Just my opinion, since dragonite has always been a favorite :)

Well Dragonite was fairly outclassed by other Dragons in Generation V; Latios and Hydreigon had higher SpA, Kyruem-B was a better physical nuke, Salamence had Intimidate, Kingdra was a better rain abuser and Garchomp had a STAB spread move, and all of them were faster than Dragonite too. It had a couple of cool things like Extremespeed, Hurricane and Inner Focus (which is probably even a little better than Multiscale because Fake Out is everywhere), but these weren't enough.

I don't think Dragonite has really got any new tools in generation VI, so I doubt it would have much of a place. The one thing I can see is that, with Gems gone, Dragons have to rely more on their offensive coverage rather than just having a really powerful Draco Meteor that destroys everything. And Dragonite does have a sweet offensive movepool, so maybe there is a place for it. In particular, Fire Blast is a great move to have, covering both Steel and Fairy and exploiting the prevalence of Megazard.

Still, I think Hydreigon would do this better thanks to its greater SpA and speed.

 

[Jec]

Well Dragonite was fairly outclassed by other Dragons in Generation V; Latios and Hydreigon had higher SpA, Kyruem-B was a better physical nuke, Salamence had Intimidate, Kingdra was a better rain abuser and Garchomp hit a better Speed tier. It had a couple of cool things like Extremespeed and Inner Focus (which is probably even a little better than Multiscale because Fake Out is everywhere), but these weren't enough.

I don't think Dragonite has really got any new tools in generation VI, so I doubt it would have much of a place. The one thing I can see is that, with Gems gone, Dragons have to rely more on their offensive coverage rather than just having a really powerful Draco Meteor that destroys everything. And Dragonite does have a sweet offensive movepool, so maybe there is a place for it. In particular, Fire Blast is a great move to have, covering both Steel and Fairy and exploiting the prevalence of Megazard.

Still, I think Hydreigon would do this better thanks to its greater SpA and speed.

Wel thank you for clearng that up for me!

But.. isnt dragonite too good for E rank? Just imo, of course.

 

[BlankZero]

Wel thank you for clearng that up for me!

But.. isnt dragonite too good for E rank? Just imo, of course.

Maybe B/C rank?

 

[Jec]

Maybe B/C rank?

That's what I was thinking as well.

 

[durecellrabbit]

Rhydon and Rhyperior are solid Trick Room sweepers with good coverage that pack a punch. You could also pair up the Lightning Rod version with something like Gyarados outside of Trick Room. Their poor special defence is really noticeable. I would normally use the Rhydon for Lightning Rod with Eviolite and Rhyperior for access to another item. Maybe C rank?

 

[Pocket]

Nollan, Mega Blastoise is superior to Clawitzer in almost every way. It has access to the same pulse moves and Muddy Water. It even has some extra goodies like Water Spout and Fake Out. Clawitzer's low Speed may be more equipped in Trick Room, but its much inferior bulk turns it into a liability when Trick Room isn't up. Blastoise's 78 base Spe is still do-able under Trick Room, and it provides the team with Fake Out and tanky support, much like Kangaskhan. Granted, you use up the team's Mega Evolution chance on Blastoise, instead of on something like Kangaskhan or Mawile, but being a poor man's Mega Blastoise does not grant Clawitzer a B ranking imo.

Jec, Dragonite is an odd Pokemon out. It's not necessarily outclassed by any other Dragons, but there's really no appeal in using it. MultiScale alone isn't enough to give Dragonite an edge - hell, I'd argue Inner Focus is just as good an ability. Most of the special-attacking sets are done better by Hydreigon, Goodra, and even Salamence, all of them having higher SpA. Physical dragons are essentially dead in this metagame as far as I can tell (even Garchomp's primary offense is EQ spam, not Dragon Claw / Outrage). The only real niche it has is spamming Hurricane in Rain, but that's not a big deal.

I could be proven wrong, of course. It may possibly be able to take advantage of its MultiScale in some SubRoost set that can spread paralysis. I have also encountered a Dragonite holding a Weakness Policy, which can possibly work, too, if it isn't double-targeted. However, it's supportive / defensive roles are rather shallow, and its offensive roles are done better by other Pokemon, as far as I've seen.

durecellrabbit, I think Rhydon / Rhyperior faces similar issues as Tyrantrum in that they're essentially vying for the same slot as Tyranitar. The latter is just an overall well-rounded Pokemon that can neutralize special threats and can function well in or out of Trick Room. LightningRod is admittedly a useful niche, but both of them are deathly afraid of Rotom-W, the number 1 Electric-type. C rank seems appropriate to me.

 

[Nollan]

Nollan, Mega Blastoise is superior to Clawitzer in almost every way. It has access to the same pulse moves and Muddy Water. It even has some extra goodies like Water Spout and Fake Out. Clawitzer's low Speed may be more equipped in Trick Room, but its much inferior bulk turns it into a liability when Trick Room isn't up. Blastoise's 78 base Spe is still do-able under Trick Room, and it provides the team with Fake Out and tanky support, much like Kangaskhan. Granted, you use up the team's Mega Evolution chance on Blastoise, instead of on something like Kangaskhan or Mawile, but being a poor man's Mega Blastoise does not grant Clawitzer a B ranking imo.

Yeah I didn't think about Mega Blastoise (pretty ironic given it is my avatar, amirite?). However, dismissing Mega Blastoise as better is not completely accurate. Remember, Clawitzer can hold items (such as LO), which gives it more offensive presence than Blastoise. These are clearly small advantages, but the ability to hold LO means Clawitzer gets OHKOs that Mega Blastoise can't, most notably 252 HP Mega Tyranitar in the sand. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it, though I do agree that it should probably be in C Rank given that Mega Blastoise has the (much) higher bulk, Fake Out, Water Spout, and etc, which leaves it with very few advantages to work with.

 

[Lolk]

Nominating Liepard for D-Rank.

One of my first times playing XY doubles was recent in Doubles Games, and I just threw random trolly junk together on a team. It's amazing how much Liepard contributed to the team. Protect, Fake Out, Dual Screens etc are all very popular moves in the doubles metagame, and a Prankster Encore can mess up unprepared opponents. It's typing is nice to check psychic-types, and SwagPlay works in any format.

Of course, a major reason for this nomination is that I don't want to face any Liepard in Doubles Games after the pain and torture I put Sound through.

Nevertheless, Liepard actually carries its weight in the meta and deserves a spot on the rankings.

Edit: Plus Prankster weather is nice also, if you are into that kind of stuff.

 

[Mr. Blinky]

I would like to nominate one of my absolute favorite Pokemon, Mienshao

It is quickly becoming my new favorite lead, and it has so many options to choose from. His fantastic attack and speed allow him to threaten tons of pokes, and has great support options in Fake Out, Feint, Reflect, Wide and Quick Guards, Rock Slide, U-Turn, Knock Off, Taunt, Brick Break. Add in his immunity to the flinch from Fake Out, and it can really give you a turn 1 advantage.

I am currently running
Meinshao @ Focus Sash
Inner Focus Jolly
Fake Out
Quick Guard
Knock Off
Drain Punch

This set has the unique ability to counter 2 of the biggest threats that I have been facing, Tyranitar and Meowstic. Almost every time I face a lead T-tar it will switch or Protect turn 1, allowing me to wail on its partner, or Knock Off the poke switching in. A Quick Guard user is becoming mandatory on all my teams, and Mienshao is also threatening enough to force enemy attention.

I would think C rank to be a good spot for Mienshao

 

[Ranevski]

With DragonGem's gone are any of the dragons really worth using? I have very limited experience with Doubles this gen, but last gen it was all about the DragonGem Draco Meteor. With that gone is there really any point using Salamence, Hydreigon, Lati@s, etc? Seems like they are E rank or worse.

Garchomp is always going to be good because of stab EQ, great typing, bulk, and speed.

Kingdra is basically only useable on rain teams which are overall worse now with CharY existing.

All the other dragons don't seem to 'do' anything. Why use Salamence instead of an intimidate user with a better stab like Gyarados, Mawille, Arcanine, etc? Why use Hydreigon or Lati@s when your best stabs are 80/85/90 base power moves that are often only hitting for neutral damage? I mean I guess you could run specs DracoMeteors but if that were enough to make a pokemon good then we'd see way more Specs Overheats and whatnot.