I nominate (mega) Aggron for C rank. Filter on a Steel-type + amazing power. It needs Trick Room for support, but heck it's still very strong
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Pre-bank Doubles Viability Rankings (outdated)
- Thread starter Audiosurfer
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Hydreigon was mainly used with LO, so I think it stays a fantastic Pokemon this generation. Latias never used DM, but yeah I guess Latios is a bit more limited. It was popular to run LO or Ebelt on Latios though, so I don't think hey all die.
Salamence is something that nothing else is, but I would agree to move it down to B rank for the time being, since it doesn't have Tailwind anymore.
Pinsir for B Rank. There are mainly two reasons that sell me on this. Firstly, Aerilate Feint. This allows Pinsir to have STAB priority that can also break Protect, allowing it to apply a lot of pressure to the opponent, who has to use Protect more carefully (priority in general is ofc always nice, not to mention Feint will go before a Talonflame Brave Bird, allowing to you pick off a would-be counter if it is weakened beforehand). Secondly, Aerilate Return always OHKOs 4 HP MegaZard Y, meaning Pinsir can outspeed and OHKO one of the metagame's top threats. It also can avoid Intimidate before Mega Evolving through the use of Hyper Cutter, which is cool. Along with Close Combat/EQ for coverage and a nice 155 base attack, Pinsir makes for a solid threat. It has its flaws of course, notably weakness to Talonflame, reliance on its Mega Stone, and only 65 / 120 / 90 defenses (solid overall but not enough to be tanking very many special attacks), but these flaws are workable around (common threats like Tyranitar can handle Talonflame) and imo its positive traits make up for its flaws (a lot of Pokemon appreciate something that can remove MegaZard Y from the field).
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Trevenant up to A rank imo
Trevenant was S rank. That was obviously too high, but B rank? This thing is amazing at what it needs to do, both such wow and treeck room are great sets that no other pokemon can do successfully.
Aromatisse down to B rank imo
Unless you can explain what this thing does besides set Trick Room and hit kinda weak...
Aroma Veil isn't really that big of an ability though...
Trevenant was S rank. That was obviously too high, but B rank? This thing is amazing at what it needs to do, both such wow and treeck room are great sets that no other pokemon can do successfully.
Aromatisse down to B rank imo
Unless you can explain what this thing does besides set Trick Room and hit kinda weak...
Aroma Veil isn't really that big of an ability though...
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Aroma Veil
In general, Aromatisse is in A Rank because it is one of the best TR setters out there. Thanks to its Fairy-typing, it resists Bug- and Dark-types attacks, two attacking types that would scare the majority of TR setters. It also has a usable base 99 SpA alongside Moonblast/Dazzling Gleam (Psychic/TBolt/Energy Ball can theoretically provide some coverage, though TBolt is probably the only one worth using since it hits Steel-types neutrally). Add in Heal Pulse, Dual Screens, and Misty Terrain (which is basically a pseudo-Safeguard with some additional effects), and Aromatisse makes for a solid thorn in the opponent's side. I'm supporting it should remain in A. I do see some validity in B Rank since it tends to be pretty predictable, though.
Aromatisse for A-rank easily. Just having it out means immunity to Taunt, Encore and Imprison (I think). Moves like STAB Dazzling Gleam, Heal Pulse and Aromatherapy/Misty Terrain make it useful even without trick Room Support, although it's even better with Trick Room.
I've had some success with Machamp. It doesn't have Intimidate like Hitmontop, but like Hitmontop it can carry both Quick and Wide Guard and unlike Hitmontop has much higher natural bulk and attack power. Dynamic Punch under trick room or with paralysis support is downright trollish, Rock Slide on top of that to make the opponent rage quit. Easily C or D tier.
I've had some success with Machamp. It doesn't have Intimidate like Hitmontop, but like Hitmontop it can carry both Quick and Wide Guard and unlike Hitmontop has much higher natural bulk and attack power. Dynamic Punch under trick room or with paralysis support is downright trollish, Rock Slide on top of that to make the opponent rage quit. Easily C or D tier.
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Pokemon belong in A rank if they can perform several roles decently, or one role very well. Aromatisse is in the second category - since with its ability, it can pretty much guarantee Trick Room for a partner like Chandelure, and it obviously appreciates TR too. It is somewhat reminiscent of Amoonguss in that regard, in that it can both guarantee and exploit a partner's TR.
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Nominating some Pokemon to the list now that the Double Games are over
Rotom-H - A-rank. Think Rotom-W but with a different typing that's still very good but not S-rank material. Has great match-ups against a lot of mons thanks to good typing (better than A-ranks Rotom-C), good bulk coupled with Sitrus Berry, good Special attack, and Will-O-Wisp which is awesome in a metagame full of physical attackers. Great at spreading burn.
Greninja - B-rank. Protean is amazing. With a Life Orb and good-enough Special Attack, it will nab a OHKO on most Pokemon if it gets a super-effective hit, further supported by its excellent Speed. It has good coverage with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and whatever filler move you need depending on your team. HP Grass, HP Fire, U-turn, Extranesory, Dark Pulse, Mat Block (the only Mon to get this move), and more. Whilst it is frail defensively, Protean has some defensive uses, and Greninja has enough resists and an immunity to provide switch-ins, so you shouldn't be losing it in one hit (if such a threat presents itself, switch out). Protean is a great reason to use it over other fast, frail attacks like Noivern. The reason for B-rank as opposed to A is that it is very vulnerable to Pokemon faster than it, and is consequently useless against most faster foes, and more importantly under Trick Room and when paralysed.
Conkledurr - B-rank. Iron Fist attacks off base 140 Attack hurt a lot. And it has great moves to abuse them with - Drain Punch for healing, Hammer Arm for raw power, and Mach Punch for strong priority. They have good coverage combined with either Rock Slide, Stone Edge or Payback (Ice Punch postbank only). And it's bulky too. Works very well under Trick Room. In my opinion a clear A-rank in 5th Gen. Main reason it's not A-rank is that it has competition with a lot of hard-hitting and bulky physical attackers this generation, many of whom also have priority like Mega Kangkashan, Scizor, Aegislash, and Mega Mawile, especially when it doesn't have Trick Room support. Without Trick Room support, it would be C-rank thanks to its bad speed, leaving it vulnerable to all the Will-O-Wisp users which are more common this generation (though you can use Guts to utilise this to your advantage). But it does exist, so B-rank.
Will add more mons later. Pocket knows the other Mons I will nominate :)
Rotom-H - A-rank. Think Rotom-W but with a different typing that's still very good but not S-rank material. Has great match-ups against a lot of mons thanks to good typing (better than A-ranks Rotom-C), good bulk coupled with Sitrus Berry, good Special attack, and Will-O-Wisp which is awesome in a metagame full of physical attackers. Great at spreading burn.
S Rank
-Burns Tyranitar before it attacks. Swap out afterwards
-Mega Mawile. Win.
-Kangashan. Lose
-Rotom-W. Lose
-Charizard-Y. Win. Unlike Rotom-W, it doens't fear Solarbeam.
Arank
-Politoed. Depends on EV spread, but it doesn't like Thunderbolt.
-Talonflame. Win
-Togekiess. Win
-Hitmontop. Win
-Gardevoir. Loss, but it can't stop you from burning the other Mon
-Scizor. Win
-Rotom-C. WIn
-Aromatisse. You don't stop it from setting up TR, but what Pokemon can't. You practically lose, but win otherwise.
-Azumarill. Lose, as both 2HKO each other with Aqua Jet and Thunderbolt respectively. You badly dent it in the process
-Scrafty. Win
-Excadrill. Lose against Mold Breaker variants (most Excadrill), win otherwise
-Garchomp. Win thanks to WoW, despite Rock Slide
-Volcarona. WIn against Quiver Dance-less variants, otherwise you're set up bait
-Hydreigon. Lose
-Gyarados. Win
-Salamence. Depends on set.
-Burns Tyranitar before it attacks. Swap out afterwards
-Mega Mawile. Win.
-Kangashan. Lose
-Rotom-W. Lose
-Charizard-Y. Win. Unlike Rotom-W, it doens't fear Solarbeam.
Arank
-Politoed. Depends on EV spread, but it doesn't like Thunderbolt.
-Talonflame. Win
-Togekiess. Win
-Hitmontop. Win
-Gardevoir. Loss, but it can't stop you from burning the other Mon
-Scizor. Win
-Rotom-C. WIn
-Aromatisse. You don't stop it from setting up TR, but what Pokemon can't. You practically lose, but win otherwise.
-Azumarill. Lose, as both 2HKO each other with Aqua Jet and Thunderbolt respectively. You badly dent it in the process
-Scrafty. Win
-Excadrill. Lose against Mold Breaker variants (most Excadrill), win otherwise
-Garchomp. Win thanks to WoW, despite Rock Slide
-Volcarona. WIn against Quiver Dance-less variants, otherwise you're set up bait
-Hydreigon. Lose
-Gyarados. Win
-Salamence. Depends on set.
Greninja - B-rank. Protean is amazing. With a Life Orb and good-enough Special Attack, it will nab a OHKO on most Pokemon if it gets a super-effective hit, further supported by its excellent Speed. It has good coverage with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and whatever filler move you need depending on your team. HP Grass, HP Fire, U-turn, Extranesory, Dark Pulse, Mat Block (the only Mon to get this move), and more. Whilst it is frail defensively, Protean has some defensive uses, and Greninja has enough resists and an immunity to provide switch-ins, so you shouldn't be losing it in one hit (if such a threat presents itself, switch out). Protean is a great reason to use it over other fast, frail attacks like Noivern. The reason for B-rank as opposed to A is that it is very vulnerable to Pokemon faster than it, and is consequently useless against most faster foes, and more importantly under Trick Room and when paralysed.
Conkledurr - B-rank. Iron Fist attacks off base 140 Attack hurt a lot. And it has great moves to abuse them with - Drain Punch for healing, Hammer Arm for raw power, and Mach Punch for strong priority. They have good coverage combined with either Rock Slide, Stone Edge or Payback (Ice Punch postbank only). And it's bulky too. Works very well under Trick Room. In my opinion a clear A-rank in 5th Gen. Main reason it's not A-rank is that it has competition with a lot of hard-hitting and bulky physical attackers this generation, many of whom also have priority like Mega Kangkashan, Scizor, Aegislash, and Mega Mawile, especially when it doesn't have Trick Room support. Without Trick Room support, it would be C-rank thanks to its bad speed, leaving it vulnerable to all the Will-O-Wisp users which are more common this generation (though you can use Guts to utilise this to your advantage). But it does exist, so B-rank.
Will add more mons later. Pocket knows the other Mons I will nominate :)
I see no reason Conkeldurr should be less than A rank. Iron Fist is great yes, but so is Sheer Force (LO Sheer Force amaze), and the possibility of Guts makes it extremely risky to try Burning it. I prefer an Adamant or Brave set with max HP/Atk, and Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Detect/Ice Punch (Bank is in like 2 weeks guys), with Iron Fist, holding either LO or a Lum Berry (sleep sucks). It's insanely powerful, works well in AND OUT of Trick Room thanks to powerful priority, bulky as all get out naturally, and can seriously pressure opponents with a wide variety if viable sets, making it very hard to actually predict the set you're facing.
A Rank pls.
A Rank pls.
Fighting-STAB is resisted by a lot of Pokemon in this metagame. And Rock Slide / Stone Edge isn't enough to get past a lot of those Pokemon, pretty much any Fairy and Ghost type beats it. Even those that it hits super-effectively as they outspeed and OHKO you back e.g. Talonflame, Charizard Y, and the former is a bitch even if TR is up. Doesn't help that it's vulnerable to Intimidate, Burn, and the common Follow Me / Rage Powder users. It also faces competition from a lot of bulky physical attackers this generation; Mega Heracross shares its Fighting-type and also enjoys good bulk but has even higher attack and better coverage (at least till Conk gets Ice Punch), Mega Kangashan and Mawile also have power, bulk, and priority, and the latter is a brilliant TR abuser. For non-Mega Evos, Aegislash, Scizor, and Aegislash. Iron Fist > Sheer Force as it boosts your main attacks; you should never be using Sheer Force. Smart players can also recognise the difference between a Iron Fist boosted attack and a Guts one (Online calculators exist too), and will know when to burn it or not; if in doubt, most run Iron Fist, so they are usually safe burning it anyways. Admittedly, it was one of those Pokemon that I was unsure about B/A rank, though I feel B is more appropriate (B+ to be more precise). There also isn't much variety with Conkeldurr - you know it's going to have Mach Punch, either Drain Punch or Hammer Arm, a coverage attack, and Detect, with max Atk EVs and remainder in bulk. Item choice can vary admittedly - LO, Lum Berry and Sitrus (I have won matches because of Sitrus), but not enough to provide major deviation.
Other nominations:
Crobat - C-rank. There's the Choice Band set and a Brave Bird / Taunt / Protect / Filler set (sadly it's missing Super Fang and Tailwind prebank). Brave Bird is great for its neutral coverage, and combined with Speed, is the main appeal for using Crobat. It's big issue is that, which makes it difficult to choose Crobat over Talonflame, who hits harder as it can afford to use an Adamant nature whilst also being faster and can move Speed EVs into HP if it wants to be bulkier. Crobat has a better defensive typing, but both still lose to Rock-types and the most common Water-type (Rotom-W), whilst Crobat's Cross Poison on the Choice Band set doesn't make much of a difference in taking down Fairies compared to CB Brave Bird. Inner Focus isn't enough to compensate for the joys of Gale Wings, not being useless when paralysed or under TR, and being immune to burn. Crobat is a good Pokemon, but outclassed by Talonflame.
Dragonite - C-rank. Not a bad Pokemon, but it struggles to create a niche for itself. Multiscale is good no doubt but isn't a big deal. Dragon-type comes with some good resists, though other Dragon-type exists, and Goodra is better at abusing those resists thanks to no Flying-type and better special bulk. Goodra is also better at attacking on the special side, which means you get moves like Flamethrower instead of the weaker Fire Punch. Going down the physical route, Dragon Claw isn't enough when it hits few things super-effectively even off 134 base attack, is prone to Intimidate and Burn, and you commonly get outsped - you're generally better off with Garchomp for physical attacking. Dragonite does get Iron Tail for Fairy-types over the Fairy-types, but it's not that big a deal when you still lose to Azumarill and Mega Mawile and that the only common Fairy-type it OHKOs is Gardevoir.
Starmie - C-rank. Completely outclassed by Greninja thanks to better SpA, Speed and Protean. Even coverage-wise, Greninja gets STAB Extranesory and its STAB HP Electric outdamages Starmie's non-STAB Thunderbolt. Natural Cure is not enough to make up for Protean's perks, and Greninja is better at surviving thanks to Protean despite its worse bulk. One of those Pokemon that should be mentioned as I have seen it on the ladder, though admittedly there is no good reason to run it.
None of these are being nominated for D-rank, as non of them have huge enough flaws to warrant D-rank i.e. they won't cost you a game and none of them require extensive team support.
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I think Dragonite could be B rank or better once it gets E Speed in bank.
I think Vivillion has at least a D Rank niche. Compound Eyes Sleep Powder+Hurricane+QD isn't hard to pull off because its speed tier works in dubs. If anything, it just has a niche for having a VERY reliable sleep move. It's just a shame that it has a 4x weakness to Rock which is shared by higher tiered threats that you might already have on your team and is very fragile before a QD. It also has Friend Guard.
Oh and I think these are still supposed be non-bank so Conk lacks awesome Sheer Force+Elemental Punch stuffs, plus the struggle against Talonflame is real.
I think Vivillion has at least a D Rank niche. Compound Eyes Sleep Powder+Hurricane+QD isn't hard to pull off because its speed tier works in dubs. If anything, it just has a niche for having a VERY reliable sleep move. It's just a shame that it has a 4x weakness to Rock which is shared by higher tiered threats that you might already have on your team and is very fragile before a QD. It also has Friend Guard.
Oh and I think these are still supposed be non-bank so Conk lacks awesome Sheer Force+Elemental Punch stuffs, plus the struggle against Talonflame is real.
Wow, I have never realized before exactly how much Talonflame fills Crobat's common niches and outclasses the big guy. Indeed, in its most conventional movesets Crobat is outdone by Talonflame, at least until we get Super Fang.
I'd argue, though, that some of the unconventional options still give Crobat some niches that are worth running if only because people are unaware of how good he can be at them. For example, Crobat can run an Assault Vest set that gives it a distinctive edge over Water types that Talonflame simply lacks. Crobat is also one of the more reliable Rain settlers outside of Thundurus, great speed, decent bulk and Inner Focus allow him to perform decently -and since many Fake Out users are Fighting types, he poses a constant threat against them-. He is also easies to switch in compared to Talonflame.
But your analysis is spot on, I do think Crobat belongs under Talonflame it's useless to argue otherwise imo.
Neither Talonflame nor Crobat can do anything to Heatran anyway >.<
Super Fang in like a week.
252+ Atk Shuca Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (80 BP Ground) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 268-316 (69.4 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dare I say that I'm sorely tempted to try this with Acrobatics...
Hello! I'm kind of new here, and so I just thought that since a lot of people were nominating pokemon, I would like to share my opinion on who I think is viable.
I would like to nominate Golduck for C Rank. Why is mainly because of his access to the ability Cloud Nine, which negates weather effects. These effects could be damage from Sandstorm or Hail, raised stats for certain types of pokemon (Sandstorm boosts the SpDef. of all Rock pokemon), or the abilities of other pokemon that rely on weather (Swift Swim, Sand Rush, Solar Power, etc.). Since weather has been such a strong force in Doubles for quite some time, having a pokemon that can negate weather effects might give you a much needed edge.
However, Golduck's stats are somewhat low and, while he can perform good offensively, he lacks some good bulk (80/78/80) that he may need for certain stituations. Despite these setbacks, Golduck still can perform well with a variety of different roles: from being a fast special sweeper, to taking more of a support-based position.
Golduck also has a great variety of moves to use to fill whatever role that is needed. Soak is one of the best moves that Golduck has, as it can lower the damage for a STAB-boosted move the opposing pokemon may be using, as well as eliminating any large number of resistances the opponent's pokemon may have. With Gen 6 giving Psyduck/Golduck two new useful egg moves, Clear Smog and Simple Beam, I could see Golduck taking a spot as a supporter.
I've tried Golduck on a team I've made for Doubles in PS, and it has done beautifully, sometimes giving me a much-needed edge against the opponent. This is the set I run:
(Golduck) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 Spd / 76 HP / 80 Def / 64 SDef / 36 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Soak
- Psych Up
- Simple Beam
As you can see, I run more of a supporter and, with half of my team having some strength against water, he fills that role nicely.
Golduck has other good moves, but I'll refrain from talking anymore since this post is already so long. So, I think Golduck should be in C-Rank, and that's all I have to say.
I would like to nominate Golduck for C Rank. Why is mainly because of his access to the ability Cloud Nine, which negates weather effects. These effects could be damage from Sandstorm or Hail, raised stats for certain types of pokemon (Sandstorm boosts the SpDef. of all Rock pokemon), or the abilities of other pokemon that rely on weather (Swift Swim, Sand Rush, Solar Power, etc.). Since weather has been such a strong force in Doubles for quite some time, having a pokemon that can negate weather effects might give you a much needed edge.
However, Golduck's stats are somewhat low and, while he can perform good offensively, he lacks some good bulk (80/78/80) that he may need for certain stituations. Despite these setbacks, Golduck still can perform well with a variety of different roles: from being a fast special sweeper, to taking more of a support-based position.
Golduck also has a great variety of moves to use to fill whatever role that is needed. Soak is one of the best moves that Golduck has, as it can lower the damage for a STAB-boosted move the opposing pokemon may be using, as well as eliminating any large number of resistances the opponent's pokemon may have. With Gen 6 giving Psyduck/Golduck two new useful egg moves, Clear Smog and Simple Beam, I could see Golduck taking a spot as a supporter.
I've tried Golduck on a team I've made for Doubles in PS, and it has done beautifully, sometimes giving me a much-needed edge against the opponent. This is the set I run:
(Golduck) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 Spd / 76 HP / 80 Def / 64 SDef / 36 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Soak
- Psych Up
- Simple Beam
As you can see, I run more of a supporter and, with half of my team having some strength against water, he fills that role nicely.
Golduck has other good moves, but I'll refrain from talking anymore since this post is already so long. So, I think Golduck should be in C-Rank, and that's all I have to say.
Golduck is an interesting pick, and Simple Beam gimmicks are my favorite thing ever...
Your EVs are a bit random. Mind explaining them? Also, you'd be better off in most cases dropping those Def/SpDef EVs into HP.
I know the EVs seem somewhat random, but it's quite necessary. It could also be because of this dumb habit I have with PS where if I'm able to make both the Def and SpDef equal, then I'll do that (Really, I do that). But seriously, it helps out a lot (though that might be hard to accomplish getting those EVs in-game considering I have to be almost exact with them).
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Usually, if you're going to do Bulk, it's better to go all in HP first. If you want Speed, you'd pick a speed benchmark and creep it by a point or two, like outspeeding max speed base 70's for Politoed/Breloom, or neutral base 100's like Charizard Y. After those 2 have been looked into, you usually go for attack/special attack EVs.
Thanks for the tips. I'll be sure to use them when I'm building a team, both on PS and in-game.
Interesting nomination, GCN-2000 - Cloud Nine is such an underrated ability, it's a shame that the ability's distribution is so terrible. As for figuring out defensive EV spreads, you can use this defensive EV Applet. If you use this applet, it tells you that max HP optimizes Golduck's bulk, as per BlankZero's suggestion.
I also rescind my initial observation of Dragonite, and support its promotion to C or B rank. As youngjake93 has recently highlighted, Dragonite has a spiffy niche in being an adept Sky Drop user to disrupt the opponent's tactics while dishing out some solid damage.
I also rescind my initial observation of Dragonite, and support its promotion to C or B rank. As youngjake93 has recently highlighted, Dragonite has a spiffy niche in being an adept Sky Drop user to disrupt the opponent's tactics while dishing out some solid damage.
I think Slowbro deserves a spot alongside Slowking. He can do what Slowking can do, except for tanking Special moves, but he can take physical moves that slowking cannot. With good STAB coverage, Slowbro can be a threat in TR teams. Plus support in the form of TR and scald he can cripple and support most physical threats in the list.
EDIT: wrong move. xD
EDIT: wrong move. xD
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Slowking can tank a physical hit with WoW or Intimidate support and also gets Nasty Plot(not nearly as relevant). Snarl/Struggle Bug support is asking for much more. There's not much other difference than that, but just a single difference in Slowking's favor makes Slowbro outclassed and a lot less viable.
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