Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Bakugames]

i think so too, but i'm also unsure of whether hamurott would still be busted in a meta with neither of those two. the spikes would be harder to keep up, sure, but let's be honest: hamurott is the cheapest hazard setter in the whole game and that includes the one that should be banned before it. i think it would probably also need to go before the hazard problem could be considered totally solved

I don't see hamurott being a big issue. it hits hard but is also really frail and hates the presence of rilla sneasler teams, since rilla can either grassy glide and kill you or uturn which deals like 70% and lets something else finish you. It also gets denied by corvi which would actually become good if both of these were banned.

Other mons like zapdos and g tusk are really good checks. It can run various items but whichever item you pick opens a specific hole in hamurott thats easy to exploit. It often only sets up one, maybe two layers of spikes which would be pretty easy to manage

 

[YNM]

Daily reminder that if Gholdengo gets banned Corvi will see a significant rise in usage in OU, especially as the main defogger of the tier. Corvi is also an excellent Physical wall, and I'm sure its presence will further balance the metagame by working as a check to the likes of Sneasler, Zamazenta, Kingambit, Ogerpon (regardess of whether or not any of them gets banned) and Rillaboom.

i think so too, but i'm also unsure of whether hamurott would still be busted in a meta with neither of those two

While Hamurott is a great Spike setter, without Gholdengo we'd have several answers for it and it shouldn't end up being too much of a problem. Even right now, Tusk can almost always come into any Hamurott attack at full health, Rapid Spin the hazards away if it used Ceaseless Edge (and possibly chip it a bit with Rocky Helmet) and then still survive to threaten it with an Headlong Rush or Close Combat. And once again, Corvi would almost certainly be a good check for it, with Defog and Body Press to prevent it from stacking Spikes up, and Rocky Helmet to hinder its already lacking bulk. We also have stuff like Mandibuzz, Weezing-G and Quaquaval in the back, just in case we end up with no new Defoggers/Rapid Spinners after the DLC2 comes out.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Gen 9 Reliable Removal (Recovery):

And actually Mandibuzz, and actually a niche/troll set of roost defog mold breaker hawlucha, very useful in the meta. With new moves in dlc2, We can't confirm that only two Will come and We hopefully Will get a new Hazard removal as Well as Triple axel back for gliscor and mystical fire on hopefully not ghold.

Corvi is also an excellent Physical wall

Hold up, 98/105-ish sure is Good but I Don't see It as "wall" as anything that hits SE wins duel.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Hold up, 98/105-ish sure is Good but I Don't see It as "wall" as anything that hits SE wins duel.

This is an insane statement. Most walls are going to not want to take strong SE hits unless they're straight up stallmons like Blissey. Even then, Corv still can take strong SE physical hits, if not very many of them.

 

[matte]

well first of all red card can serve as excellent counterplay to stored p

ahem.

red card shows a lot of promise in this hazard hellscape and i'm genuinely shocked that no one has mentioned it until now. the biggest issue with red card (besides knock off) is that it's kind of imperfect for sweep-stopping because the mon has to survive to force the opponent out. pokemon with sturdy can't be relied upon because of how common hazards are, and also because all of them are either unviable, would rather run another ability, or, in the case of rockpon, can't actually hold items. so, what we need is a mon that can survive hits easily, or has other qualities that it can use to abuse red card's effect. let's look at some of our options:

• is a nice option for this, especially given that it already has whirlwind so you can phaze twice in the same turn and get extra hazard damage. however, this really cuts into its longevity because of the loss of lefties healing. if you want to go this route, i can see it working, but you need wish support for it
• doesn't strictly need things like boots or lefties thanks to the three billion different forms of healing it naturally gets, so it's one of the more flexible mons to run an item like this on. the big benefit of this one is that you can click spore while forcing a random thing to switch in, so your opponent can't choose what to use as a sleep absorber
• can all get some mileage out of red card thanks to unaware. instead of contending with a set-up opposing mon directly, you can simply yeet them back into their pokeball without having to worry about getting one-shot. not suuuper big on giving it to because of the rocks weakness, but if you're diligent with your hazard control it might work
• doesn't really like giving up sash, but if you play things right, you can basically insta-poison something
• can't survive too many hits and isn't really that great in the current meta, but it does get prankster and recycle, so i'm sure you can make some low-ladder people lose their fucking minds with this
• ok this one isn't in the game yet but hear me out: sturdy + red card + metal burst. get yourself knocked down to 1 hp, then unleash an attack with no immunities that does… *runs calcs* …484 damage. which will ohko anything with fully-invested base 140 hp or lower. with 3 layers of spikes up, it ohkos everything but chansey and blissey. and your opponent has no choice what to sacrifice to this attack. this probably won't be any good but it's really fucking cool
• you can just put any fucking item on this, who even cares

+
Just saying, Red Card + Sneasler works too. I got cooked by this on ladder, I tried to predict Sneasler coming in, so I clicked U-turn then was sent into my Clefable. Then Snealser just like tickled my entire team. It works well on punishing positioning as well as taking a hit (hopefully a resist) and get that Speed boost right off bat. Defo a more niece option tho (Why do that when is there).

Kingambit Tera Type Section:

Also, what do yall think the "Meta" tera's are for Kingambit? I run Tera Flying on my Gambit as I find it the most consistent, but I have seen niche Teras like Fire, Dark, Grass and Fighting. Fire is immune to burns ofc, normally paired with Boots or Leftovers, Dark + Black Glasses just shreds things, Grass resists Ogerpon-Wellsping's stabs + a Spore immunity. Fighting is to power up Low Kick but still keeping a Dark resist. I've been seeing this on high ladder alot now, its good tech for opposing Kingambit, and can even 3HKO Dondozo at max fallen. (2HKO if 12% chip which is peasy to get). Often paired with Leftovers and tends to be bulky. I haven't seen much Tera Blast action from Kingambit anymore, I feel like Tera Fairy Blast fell off in usage in the DLC. I think its because of Rillaboom being so common as opposing Prio, so you need to keep that resistance.

Kingambit can do anything it wants tbh :/

 

[Cuddly]

Speaking of, how exactly do you handle Sneasler without Gliscor and Gholdengo? Unless you Tera Garganacl to Fighting resist, you don’t really have many reliable options.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

zapdos does The Job Just fine! All moves are contact, So status gets it (hopefully)

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Speaking of, how exactly do you handle Sneasler without Gliscor and Gholdengo? Unless you Tera Garganacl to Fighting resist, you don’t really have many reliable options.

Grassy Seed Sinistcha is my pocket answer. With max DEF and HP investment it can live hits with a swords dance and either strength sap or matcha gacha fish for a burn. Tera Poison for maximum "go away" or tera steel for "nice dire claw". You can live a Close Combat and keep strength sapping.

 

[Wolf-X]

Speaking of, how exactly do you handle Sneasler without Gliscor and Gholdengo? Unless you Tera Garganacl to Fighting resist, you don’t really have many reliable options.

Oh that's a very easy question! You just use Landorus-T/Clodsire/Dodonzo/Skeledirge BAN it.

 

[arnimacarni]

Okay so I don't wanna come from a place of ignorance, I know that when we talk about Gliscor, we talk about Gliscor and Gholdengo, but as I won't be making reqs, I wanna still post in this thread, but only from the Gliscor side of things.

The thing that I have been realizing lately is that, maybe due to the mons I like to use, the most standard Gliscor set is relatively wallable. I play for fun and like to use gimmicky stuff, but if we take into account the most standard set of EQ, Toxic and Spikes, Protect or Sub, Gliscor is completely useless against:

-Corviknight
-Opposing Gliscor
-Weezing-G with either Levitate or Air Balloon
-Tera Flying Gholdengo and Garganacl
-Tera Poison Levitate users like Cress, Hydreigon or Rotom-Wash
-Some lower tier mons like Bronzong and Orthworm
-And besides that pretty walled by stuff like Scizor, Amoonguss and others...

With all this SP discussion I went back and built around Cress with Alotales, and I started thinking OK so Alotales is my Gliscor counter or revenge killer, but then I realized, hey Gliscor can't even touch Cress after I tera! And it's not like Tera Poison is rare.

I understand that the Gliscor of it all is quite complicated and multifaceted and this doesn't mean that we've solved Gliscor *insert Gif of NASA employees overjoyed* but I feel like stuff like Corv and Cress is not so rare and/or unviable that Gliscor cant be handled

 

[Firer4]

Okay so I don't wanna come from a place of ignorance, I know that when we talk about Gliscor, we talk about Gliscor and Gholdengo, but as I won't be making reqs, I wanna still post in this thread, but only from the Gliscor side of things.

The thing that I have been realizing lately is that, maybe due to the mons I like to use, the most standard Gliscor set is relatively wallable. I play for fun and like to use gimmicky stuff, but if we take into account the most standard set of EQ, Toxic and Spikes, Protect or Sub, Gliscor is completely useless against:

-Corviknight
-Opposing Gliscor
-Weezing-G with either Levitate or Air Balloon
-Tera Flying Gholdengo and Garganacl
-Tera Poison Levitate users like Cress, Hydreigon or Rotom-Wash
-Some lower tier mons like Bronzong and Orthworm
-And besides that pretty walled by stuff like Scizor, Amoonguss and others...

With all this SP discussion I went back and built around Cress with Alotales, and I started thinking OK so Alotales is my Gliscor counter or revenge killer, but then I realized, hey Gliscor can't even touch Cress after I tera! And it's not like Tera Poison is rare.

I understand that the Gliscor of it all is quite complicated and multifaceted and this doesn't mean that we've solved Gliscor *insert Gif of NASA employees overjoyed* but I feel like stuff like Corv and Cress is not so rare and/or unviable that Gliscor cant be handled

You are mistaking the role of Gliscor in a battle. The problem Gliscor presents boils down to three things:

1. Few things can actually switch into it. This is the only point you touched on so I'll give my thoughts on your suggested answers regarding this point.

a. Gliscor cant touch you either leading to the infamous Gliscor mirrors
b. Bronzong and Orthworm are shit mons. Weezing honestly has kind of a niche but probably more so in Neutralizing Gas.
c. Amoongus cant touch Gliscor and dies to a few EQs. Scizor doesnt have reliable recovery and has no immediate way to threathen Gliscor either.
d. Most of the other mons you named require to Tera. Having to Tera just to have a switchin to their defensive spiker is highly problematic at best.

This gets me to my next point. No one is saying that set we are currently discussing is going to come in and 6-0 your team. Gliscor doesnt even need to be able to make direct progress against every member of your team because

2. it can always make progress by just clicking Spikes.

which combined with

3. it walls half your team while being nigh impossible to chip down

is the cause of the meta we are currently dealing with-

So in short: Gliscor walls half your teams, cant be chipped down and can always make progress via Spikes. The fact that its also hella difficult to actually have a reliable switch in to aside from itself is very significant but actually the smallest problem it presents and the reason why everyone is either running offense or 6 boots rn.

 

[YubelVT]

*Sidesteps whats happening up there*

I am a Garganacl and Skeledirge believer cuz lately Iron Valiant and Iron Moth have been caving my skull in. Still good Pokemon imo but I can see why they fell off. But that won't stop me from using them in low ladder as my low tier warriors.

heatran walls iron moth if it's not running tera ground btw

 

[YubelVT]

Speaking of, how exactly do you handle Sneasler without Gliscor and Gholdengo? Unless you Tera Garganacl to Fighting resist, you don’t really have many reliable options.

reminder that ghold does not handle sneasler. drop dire claw for night slash

 

[Just A Shroom God]

i swear every time i look at this thread it just cycles between gliscor vs gholdengo, tera, stored power and booster energy lmao. i wanna try and set the conversation in a different, hopefully less argumentative direction, what pokemon not ranked in ou currently are people finding success with in ou right now? just a mon that you're having fun experimenting with and having some level of success with?

i don't play very often and i'm still pretty low ladder because time is a rare resource nowadays, but i've been having fun with crawdaunt on a veil team, since its pretty frail normally but with dragon dance or swords dance behind veil it can live long enough to get a boost or two and deal some serious damage with its adaptability boosted stab moves, its also pretty fun to use in rain because adaptability boosted, tera water, rain boosted liquidation goes brrrrr. what mons are y'all using that aren't the conventional ou picks?

Lokix, Lugg-H, and Braviary-H are all lower-tier mons that are really fun to use
Lokix has tinted lens first impression and sucker punch that can really hurt after a band boost and/or tera bug
Lugg-H compresses spin with your reliable physical tank and bulky attakker as long as you're willing to tera with it to remove it's godawful typing
Braviary-H has tinted lens hurricane off of an actually good special attack stat (sorry lokix but it's true) and you can also run esper wing with calm mind for some funni sweeps

 

[poiuygfd]

Amoonguss + gastrodon. Amoonguss is honestly pretty great, as it is a great check to ogerpon-wellspring and alright against double dance manaphy before it starts going, especially with tera dark, as it can spore manaphy to allow a teammate to kill manaphy/force it out. Gastrodon is quite great against manaphy as well and with tera fire + storm drain, can stone wall ogerpon-wellspring with rocky helmet chip + recover.

gastrodon is a very cool mon and i can see it being quite good with its solid bulk and nice typing and abilities to take on top mons like manaphy right now, and amoonguss is very good too, i can see amoonguss coming back up to ou at some point

i'll always be a garg and dirge supporter, partly because they're both part of my in-game team, partly because i love their designs, but mostly because i love the way they play

respect, garg and dirge were both on my in game team too, love those mons (except when i have to face off against garg lmao), but yeah they both seem pretty nice right now, and if gliscor does get banned i can see garg stonks going up as a fellow bulky, status immune monster.

Lokix, Lugg-H, and Braviary-H are all lower-tier mons that are really fun to use
Lokix has tinted lens first impression and sucker punch that can really hurt after a band boost and/or tera bug
Lugg-H compresses spin with your reliable physical tank and bulky attakker as long as you're willing to tera with it to remove it's godawful typing
Braviary-H has tinted lens hurricane off of an actually good special attack stat (sorry lokix but it's true) and you can also run esper wing with calm mind for some funni sweeps

lokix is super fun to use, clicking tinted lens first impression just feels so good, and coincidentally lokix was also part of my in game team, banded or tera lokix with priority is just fun to click buttons with

 

[YubelVT]

Hold up, 98/105-ish sure is Good but I Don't see It as "wall" as anything that hits SE wins duel.

Clefable is top 5 in DPP with 95/73/90 bulk as a normal type. Bulk that is objectively better is fantastic

 

[Sahvyt]

shoutout to the guy in low ladder running destiny bond iron valiant specifically to counter my sneasler while i'm trying to get reqs, i am outside of your house

speaking of low ladder, out of my currently 25 games i have seen ghold and glisc a total of maybe 6 times? it's kind of startling how rare they are near the bottom

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Clefable is top 5 in DPP with 95/73/90 bulk as a normal type. Bulk that is objectively better is fantastic

DPP is a bad gen overall so anw. gen4 is a p flawed metagame like All gens are (only natdex is real) And I honestly think clefable shouldnt be that good, it is just popular among The fans (people liking bad designs) And I think it's OU in these gens only by popularity.

 

[YubelVT]

DPP is a bad gen overall so anw. clefable in gen4 is a p flawed metagame like All gens are (only natdex is real) And I honestly think clefable shouldnt be that good, it is just popular among The fans (people liking bad designs) And I think it's OU in these gens only by usage.

this is the least coherent thing I've ever read and I have to read my own posts

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

1. Few things can actually switch into it.

gliscor is bad against these mons: flying types that Can either KO it or sub in face of it. glisc just is a lose condition. I think it's very good to set in gyarados And sub+ddance in the face of the bat. Sure the gyarados will be walled by something else, but you Can easely reach +3 And at this point, just press the oppo into ff.
Rain Also nukes gliscor. can't Even sAY that rain is a bad archetype when nothing really walls an adaptated And creative rain. 'Cause honestly, If you know that you lose to ogerpon-w, And you know that overqwil just doesnt care, Why do you keep saying" rain is bad Cause ogerpon-w destroys it" And "overqwil is not a good mon in rain" when it is a viable solution to most of your problems?

 

[RudeLiees]

gliscor is bad against these mons: flying types that Can either KO it or sub in face of it. glisc just is a lose condition. I think it's very good to set in gyarados And sub+ddance in the face of the bat. Sure the gyarados will be walled by something else, but you Can easely reach +3 And at this point, just press the oppo into ff.
Rain Also nukes gliscor. can't Even sAY that rain is a bad archetype when nothing really walls an adaptated And creative rain. 'Cause honestly, If you know that you lose to ogerpon-w, And you know that overqwil just doesnt care, Why do you keep saying" rain is bad Cause ogerpon-w destroys it" And "overqwil is not a good mon in rain" when it is a viable solution to most of your problems?

LOL.. who use gyarados ? Rain don’t nuke Gliscor because he can Tera and recover with protect

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Gliscor in Rain: 102-120 (28.9 - 34%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculegion Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 162-191 (46 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Tera Water Basculegion Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 182-215 (51.7 - 61%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
And rains have very bad matchup against ogerpon-water.

also stop considering that lowladder show what is the actual meta

 

[arnimacarni]

DPP is a bad gen overall so anw. gen4 is a p flawed metagame like All gens are (only natdex is real) And I honestly think clefable shouldnt be that good, it is just popular among The fans (people liking bad designs) And I think it's OU in these gens only by usage.

This sounds like a trump tweet

 

[YubelVT]

LOL.. who use gyarados ? Rain don’t nuke Gliscor because he can Tera and recover with protect

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Gliscor in Rain: 102-120 (28.9 - 34%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculegion Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 162-191 (46 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Tera Water Basculegion Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 182-215 (51.7 - 61%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
And rains have very bad matchup against ogerpon-water.

Forcing Gliscor to click the tera water button is nice because it means that the electric spammer you definitely have on that rain team (be it zapdos or thund t [i guess]) will now kill gliscor instantly

 

[RudeLiees]

Forcing Gliscor to click the tera water button is nice because it means that the electric spammer you definitely have on that rain team (be it zapdos or thund t [i guess]) will now kill gliscor instantly

Téra dragon nuke both :).
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Dragon Gliscor: 89-105 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
Focus blast do 50% but 70% look more like 1% lol
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Dragon Gliscor: 89-105 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal

 

[YubelVT]

Téra dragon nuke both :).
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Dragon Gliscor: 89-105 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
Focus blast do 50% but 70% look more like 1% lol
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Dragon Gliscor: 89-105 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal

Forcing Gliscor to tera in general is a good thing. It replaces its fantastic defensive profile with a worse one and tera dragon in particular makes it die even harder to iron valiant