The Inverse Battle ǝɯɐƃɐʇǝɯ

[Loudo]

That core obviously has trouble with Avalugg unless Lilligant runs HP Ice.

Avalugg's Special Defense is pretty pathetic, you don't need a SE move to deal with it.
The best Hidden Powers for Lilligant are either Poison (SE effective against Rock and Ground) or Fire (stronger in the sun, SE against Rock and Water). Considering the prevalence of Groudon and the fact that Water-types are weaker in the sun, I'd probably pick Poison. Which is why Venusaur is a better sun sweeper: it just happens to have the perfect STABs for the job.

The sad thing is that there would be perfect counters to OU sun teams, but they all happen to lose to that monstrosity called Groudon.
Abomasnow is perfect to neutralize the sun, because it can switch into sun setters. Sadly, it's weak to Groudon. Gogoat can counter pretty much any sun sweeper, because it's immune Grass and it resists Fire, Venusaur's Poison, Charizard's Flying, and Volcarona's Bug. Sadly, weak to Groudon. And so on.

And sun was already the best weather in Inverse before the introduction of Groudon, I did try it pre-Pokébank. Grass happens to be one of the best offensive types, sun neutralizes Grass-types' weakness to Water, and sun setters have an advantage against any other weather setter not named Abomasnow.

 

[Albacore]

So, should we suspect Groudon? It's definitely the best Pokemon in the metagame besides Deoxys which should have been banned a long time ago. And even if it is banned, Sun will still be usable thanks to Charizard-Y, who is fantastic with its great Fire-Grass coverage.

 

[Loudo]

I think Groudon doesn't need to be suspected. We've seen it in action and there weren't many reasons to think it would have been balanced in the first place. Deoxys-N, Groudon, and Kyurem-W just need to go, IMHO.

The real suspects should be Reshiram and Blaziken. Deoxys-S should probably follow the same fate of its counterpart in standard OU. If it gets banned in standard OU, there's no reason to keep it Inverse since it works the same way.

 

[Albacore]

Has anybody discussed Victini yet? It can really cause a lot of damage in the sun, an even outside of it.
It's also able to break through ChansLugg decently:

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 324-382 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Victini Glaciate vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Food for thought...

Of course, Darmanitan is also good, but can't touch Avalugg. Fire-types seem to actually be pretty good in Inverse, although that might just be because of Sun.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Reshiram and Kyu-white are stopped pretty coldly by Chansey imo, though they just steam roll everything without Chansey. Deoxys should get the boot though: Deoxys-N is a fucking ridiculous lead (step 1: lead with deoxys, step 2: click whichever move is super effective, if not just spam psycho boost and superpower, step 3: spam extremespeed against foes you think will beat you, step 4: laugh at your 5-4 advantage, which Deoxys can pretty much get you at least 75% of the time). It's very good at netting you a really early advantage, and that's not mentioning you can just go the hazards route.

Hide

150 150 150 (Deoxys) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spd / 220 Atk / 36 SAtk
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Extreme Speed

yeah my hastily built deoxys is amazingly good at being a lead

Groudon is just stupid. EQ/Fire Punch is amazing enough coverage, both are boosted by STAB or weather, and not many wall it (like who does? Heatran, Rotom-C, Rotom-F, fucking weird shit like Bronzong).

 

[Albacore]

I'm pretty sure Deo-S can fill Deo-N's shoes decently. Sure, it's a lot weaker, but it can still do a lot of damage, and isn't ridiculously broken to the point of being a win condition.

Groudon is probably broken, all things considered. Inducing Sun seems to be what pushes it over the edge, and it dealing with Grass-types decently well is a huge boon to Sun teams which get stopped cold by Gogoat otherwise. If it gets banned, Grass-types might start running rampant. Are there any good ground-tpes that aren't Groudon ? Gliscor seems decent, but it doesn't resist Grass. Mamoswine might do a good job, though, and checks Sunteams very well. I swear, Mamoswine seems to be anti-meta in every single OM.

Not sure about Kyurem-B and Reshiram. They probably will stop being that good when Groudon gets banned. Kyu-W might still be broken, but Resh gets completely mawled by Grass and Fire-type moves, which is not a good thing.

Edit :
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-87772552
I think we might want to look at Blaziken.
Oh, and more proof that Deo-N needs to go.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Blaziken can't beat the lugg... though a mixed set with HP Ice might do the trick. Megaken 2HKOes 252/0 Avalugg with HP Ice, which is pretty cool. Protect/HP Ice/STABs seems like it'd be a decent choice.

 

[Albacore]

You could just BP the speed boosts to a special attacker, or make sure Avalugg is gone before sending in Blaziken. It's more of a late-game sweeper anyway.
Come think of it, it doesn't deal with Chansey all that well either. Sure, it can 2HKO it, but dies of recoil in the process.

 

[Loudo]

What can stop Mega Blaziken:

• Avalugg. Loses to Baton Pass if it doesn't Roar. Loses to HP Ice if low on health or the opponent predicts the switch, unless you heavily invest in Avalugg's SpD.
• Mega Abomasnow and other bulky Ice-types in general. Lose to Swords Dance + Earthquake. And Baton Pass.
  
• Thick Fat Snorlax. Loses to Baton Pass or Swords Dance + Shadow Claw.
  
• Steel-types. Yeah, there's those... And Baton Pass.
  
• Sucker Punch users. Lose to Substitute or Baton Pass. Also, unless it's STAB or Blaziken has already taken damage, it won't OHKO.

That's it. Yeah, it might be slightly broken. Just a touch. XD

 

[Albacore]

While we're on the subject, let's look at what counters Deoxys :

• Errrm...
• Well...
• ...
• How about Conkeldurr?
• After all, Mach Punch OHKOs Deoxys, and Life Orb boosted Knock Off doesn't OHKO Conk!
• But Knock Off + Extremespeed Kos, so it can't switch in...
• And if it has Focus Sash, it can't switch in either...
• So it's a shaky check at best...
• Anything else?
• Is there a Poison/Ice type?
• How about Poison/Rock?
• No?
• Well, I guess there's still Conkeldurr...

Say what you will about standard Mega-Khan and Mega-Luke, at least they had a few shaky checks. Deoxys has one. And you barely ever see it.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-87841602

This is going to get really addictive, I swear.

tl;dr: fuck megaken

 

[a__man]

Blaziken also hits main Unaware users super effectively, so they're not very useful. Full health Tangrowth has a chance of surviving a boosted earthquake, and Mamoswine is a pretty nice answer to it. Yes, Blaze can Pass out of them, but most Passers do that anyway. Still might be broken, though, since having checks doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

Is Deo-N still being "suspected"? Activity in this metagame seems to have died down a lot a little, so it might be the case that banning them just isn't important.

 

[Albacore]

Blaziken also hits main Unaware users super effectively, so they're not very useful. Full health Tangrowth has a chance of surviving a boosted earthquake, and Mamoswine is a pretty nice answer to it. Yes, Blaze can Pass out of them, but most Passers do that anyway. Still might be broken, though, since having checks doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

Is Deo-N still being "suspected"? Activity in this metagame seems to have died down a lot a little, so it might be the case that banning them just isn't important.

For some reason, it still hasn't been banned yet, even though we all know how broken it is. We really should get to that.

 

[Klang]

For some reason, it still hasn't been banned yet, even though we all know how broken it is. We really should get to that.

Blaziken, Lugia, and Dialga are probably the ones the Ubers should stay since each have flaws that prevent them from being as prevelant. Reshiram is broken currently though partially because of Groudon's sun, though I'm pretty sure it's still broken without it as well. In other words I'm suggesting Reshiram, Deo-N, Kyurem-W and Groudon for ban.

If anyone thinks my ban suggestions are flawed then feel free to weigh in and tell me why I'm wrong.

Joim

 

[Albacore]

How is Lugia any less broken than in standard play? Psychic is one of the best defensive typings in the game, and Flying isn't half bad either.

 

[Klang]

How is Lugia any less broken than in standard play? Psychic is one of the best defensive typings in the game, and Flying isn't half bad either.

Weaknesses to common grass, ground, and psychic attacks as well as a more uncommon but significant 4x fighting weakness usually meant that when I played both with it and against it it wasn't as broken as I initially thought, even with Multiscale. Maybe it's the fact that almost all of my teams have a fighting type of some sort. I don't have that strong of an opinion about it regardless, so if there's support from multiple people for a ban on Lugia I'd be fine with it.

 

[Albacore]

Weaknesses to common grass, ground, and psychic attacks as well as a more uncommon but significant 4x fighting weakness usually meant that when I played both with it and against it it wasn't as broken as I initially thought, even with Multiscale. Maybe it's the fact that almost all of my teams have a fighting type of some sort. I don't have that strong of an opinion about it regardless, so if there's support from multiple people for a ban on Lugia I'd be fine with it.

Ah, I see. I somehow forgot that Grass types rule Inverse. Still, Psychic STAB is a very good thing to have, and the only viable Ground types are Diggersby and Groudon, which will probably get banned.

And obviously, Lugia takes hits incredibly well, even after multiscale is broken:
252+ Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 67-81 (16.1 - 19.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Oh, and this calc is also pretty impressive :
4 SpA Life Orb Deoxys Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 192-227 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Joim]

I'm following the thread and the meta, I'm deciding on the bans because the games seem a tad broken. Groudon might be ok, though.
Thoughts on?
Ban: Reshiram, Deo-N, Kyurem-W
Do not ban: Groudon

 

[Albacore]

I'm following the thread and the meta, I'm deciding on the bans because the games seem a tad broken. Groudon might be ok, though.
Thoughts on?
Ban: Reshiram, Deo-N, Kyurem-W
Do not ban: Groudon

Deo-N is obviously OP, but the other three are a bit tricky because Reshiram and possibly Kyu-W would not be nearly as broken if it weren't for Groudon.
Groudon is Reshiram's best friend : not only does it provide sun, but it also takes care of Grass-types that completely ruin his live. Remove it, and Reshiram should be manageable.

And Groudon has too massive a niche to ignore. Not only does he do very well against many Grass-types and Normal-types that dominate Inverse, but he also summons Sun, the dominant weather by far, and has near-perfect coverage in 2 moves, enabling him to act as a sweeper or a physical wall.
(And I don't know if an AV set with EQ / Fire Punch / Dragon Tail / Stone Edge or Iron Head or PuP or some other filler is ever used, but I can see it being pretty good)

For the moment, I think Groudon should be banned, Kyurem-W might need be banned, and Reshiram shouldn't be banned as long as Groudon is.

Also, I think we should add Blaziken and Lugia to the list of suspects. Especially Lugia, since SR is pretty rare in Inverse and therefore Multscale is better than ever.

 

[a__man]

I'm still a bit unsure about Lugia, because it's only real weakness is pretty rare here (Fighting is a really iffy type... weak to Stealth Rock, Pursuit, U-Turn and very few viable pokemon). Other than Fighting, though... Lugia is just plain bulky. Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 109-129 (26.2 - 31%) -- 5.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 190-225 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 118-139 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 139-165 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 17.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 93-111 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- 22% chance to 4HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

This basically means as long as it makes an opponent switch (not that uncommon since very few pokemon can break its bulk) it can cripple them and stall out with status (Roost gives it back MultiScale and TWave means it eventually gets a few turns at full health). 110 Speed means it can Sub before you status it, and CM gives it a decent offensive presence while making it specially unbreakable. It basically hasn't changed from the standard metagame.

Feel free to disagree, since most of this from my own experiences testing it out.

On another note, Genesect and Lucarionite seem to have been banned in Standard, but they seem fine in Inverse.

 

[Joim]

I finally banned Reshiram, Deo-N, Kyurem-W, Groudon, Lugia. They have good stats, good abilities, they are simply too strong and overcentralise the meta. Live soon.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

rip niggadragons

time to make an actual team

with this, the only ubers left in the tier are blaziken, dialga, gene and megaluke. all 4 are pretty underwhelming atm, so it'd be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

[Brammi]

Ambipom is a beast.

So is Persian.

 

[a__man]

I agree with Ambipom, but Persian is just an inferior version of it (unless you want to run NP for some reason, but the only things that Persian isn't 2HKOd by is basically Chans, which walls it anyway).

New usage stats came out a few days ago, and Greninja has gone up to third place for some reason... anybody know the reason for this?

 

[Albacore]

I don't see any reason why Greninja wouldn't be used. Protean is awesome, Water is great agains Grass-Types, and U-Turn gets better coverage in Inverse.