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Resource Union Street - Casual Discussion Thread
- Thread starter TMan87
- Start date
two different moves please, let's not have more attack x3 :p
The Safari Zone is now open for testing!
This test run is free-form: You can just sign up, for adjusted rewards.
It'll last however long it takes us to make more Habitats. For reference, the test Habitat took us about a week, and we'd like to have Habitats for each level.
We'll use these tests to help determine the amount of Fatigue that Pokemon have for capture, as well as how big the safari backpack should be and whether it should vary from Habitat to Habitat.
Finally getting around to writing a more proper OP for this thread. I also lightly adjusted the thread name so I could include a pleasant eyecatch at the top. Expect that OP shortly after this post.
This is an "on our radar" post following Safari's bombastic, jam-packed test launch that everyone joined all at once.
In no particular order, these are the things on our immediate and eventual to-do lists.
Small Battle Balance Changes
Progression Speed
Accounting for Real Life
This is an "on our radar" post following Safari's bombastic, jam-packed test launch that everyone joined all at once.
In no particular order, these are the things on our immediate and eventual to-do lists.Small Battle Balance Changes
It seems generally agreed upon that battle changes are positive. Players are using utility Pokemon, ridiculous nukes, status strategies, and just generally things that aren't bulky bruisers. A few specific game pieces that we wanted to highlight are kind of dragging behind, however, including the following.
Raw Stage-changing moves:
While moves like Fire Lash and Mystical Fire are enjoying new life as pieces of players' gameplans, raw stat-boosting moves such as Swords Dance (and their opposites, such as Feather Dance) still exist as essentially filler moves for substitutions.
The math explains why pretty simply: Using Swords Dance (or Screech) nets +24 damage, if you hit your opponent on all three turns of the boost's duration. Losing just one turn of the duration makes this worse than most regular attacks, in most situations. Iron Defense Feather Dance preventing 18 damage over its duration is a bit less straightforward — time your opponent doesn't attack you during this duration is still extending your time in play, and defensive stages are more often used in matchups where enemies already deal you little damage.
All that said, these "plain" stat-changing moves (e.g. not the already very good Belly Drum and friends) could all probably comfortably receive an extra turn, or even two, of duration without breaking anything. Their counterplay, in Psych Up, Attract, Phasing, Haze, or even just attacking more, is so common as to be universal. Trainers should sometimes think, "If I do this, then I'm giving the opponent time to stat-up" in battle — Stat-ups should be threatening.
ScreensLight Screen and Reflect, too, are lagging behind in use. It seems like making them short-duration defensive measures didn't really hit the mark for anyone. We're considering doing these over, to find these moves a niche that other moves can't fill, and to more intentionally support teammates instead of the best users (big bruisers like Dragonite and Metagross) exclusively.
Aurora Veil is in an interesting spot since, for the four or so Pokemon that can actually use the move, it's quite good. This move will probably be adjusted whenever the two above moves are, but unlike the above moves it doesn't have any truly heinous users. It may end up differing numerically (amount of mitigation, or duration) from the above two.
Mist and Safeguard are fine. Both seem to be doing exactly what we want them to be doing, even if Safeguard is the better of the two. They're not likely to change.
Status ConditionsYes, it's that time again. Statuses being strong is good, but there's room to pull back some of them juuuust a little bit. Lightning round of the statuses that are working mostly how we want them to:
- Burn: Might be a bit too punishing for Pokemon that don't threaten Guts, Facade, or both. Thoughts welcome.
- Paralysis: Going into a round doomed, from a permanent status, feels awful. Positioning this status as a punish to pivoting seems net-positive, however. We'll likely try to push back when the "full paralysis" step happens in the round, and we may adjust the amount of counters needed for it to occur.
- Sleep: Works great, but a lot of moves in the Sleep ecosystem, like Nightmare and Dream Eater, are really truly awful. We'll probably look into those moves.
- Freeze: It's too easy to re-freeze a Pokemon after they thaw. We're likely to make each Freeze last longer (maybe an extra turn), but then also add more time between Freezes.
- Poison: Toxic Poison is brutal in lower-Level battles currently, where no Pokemon can really do anything to deal with it. I'm loathe to add any kind of Level conditional to the move itself, however. More likely, we're just going to quitely upshift this move to Level 1 when the next big movepool update occurs, whenever that may be.
- Confusion: In the right place, but probably too confusing. We're likely to change how effects in this status are phrased.
I'm glad we're at a spot where statuses really only need number adjustment or auxiliary work. Feel free to leave any thoughts or wants regarding status conditions in this thread.
Z-MovesWe're aware that these suck and no one wants to chase them. We don't want to buff them until we have more places to Level Up, because we don't want people to choose between Leveling and Tech in the only facility they have available to them — for the time being, we would rather they Level.
(To get these buffed faster, help us test Safari!)
Progression Speed
We still like Levels (watching your, and others', Pokemon grow and improve is most of the point of the game) but would like them go to by faster. Not Gen 8 "only one fight even matters" faster, but faster.
Facility Difficulty
Facilities should probably be, on average, easier than what we currently have.
The facility we currently have (just Realgam) isn't really the most appropriate for repetitive replays. The bosses within ask for specific team-building and counter strategies. Realgam Tower should be the higher-difficulty, higher-reward option within a given Level for players looking for more of a real fight. More relaxed, randomized facilities like Safari and Tree should be doing the lifting of "common grind content" for gaining Levels for your team. So, we're looking to push some numbers around to make that happen.
Raid should exist somewhere between those and Realgam — it's harder on paper, but you can likely assign something like Volbeat or Tinkaton as your support as long as you have a mon that can tank hits for it, making it a better place to Level your truest late-bloomers.
Adding Additional ChallengePlayers that want added bite to their Leveling experience should have a way to do that. We're looking to add a challenge-increasing system (for those who remember Season's Beatings) for players to accelerate their Leveling process further. When a player rolls up to Tierno with a 
dedicated counter-team meant to kill him into the sun, they would be able to fill that power difference with challenges to keep the match interesting and take advantage of, well, their overwhelming advantage.
dedicated counter-team meant to kill him into the sun, they would be able to fill that power difference with challenges to keep the match interesting and take advantage of, well, their overwhelming advantage.
We hope to have challenges on offer that impact popular Pokemon more harshly, for the most part. Sure, your Ledian may not be subject to any of the challenges you selected "for free", but the trade-off is that you're using Ledian. This thinking is to ensure worse-off mons don't get left behind and forced to Level Up more slowly than stronger mons who could shoulder more challenges.
SafariWe'd like Safari to be the go-to facility for Leveling a single Pokemon very quickly, hence its feature for pooling and distributing EXP. That *also* means that it needs to proceed rather fast — anyone who remembers old Tree knows how long three 2v2 Singles battles can take under normal conditions.
The use of capturing to "skip" large amounts of enemy HP is the main built-in way of speeding up Safari expeditions. Safari's success will be measured mainly based on how important capturing ends up being. It may be that we need to raise the "low HP" capture method threshold, or do other work to the capture math, to make sure the facility is snappy and fast. I'd be delighted if most Safari feedback was centered around this goal.
RaidWe're likely to fast-track the Raid Zone, a facility centered around timed 3v1 boss encounters with party roles, as the next thing out.
This is also intended to be easier than sims (in that they're more "solvable"). We're focusing the rewards on mostly just Pokemon progression with little extra fluff — once you've Leveled your exact counterteam passed the raid that it counters, you'll have to find a way to shoehorn your next mon into the team or you may as well not revisit.
This facility will be harder to write up than Safari. (Which we wrote up in probably about two weeks, once we had custody of it!) Most of that difficulty will be in tuning the damage and health of the bosses within. We also have to do work on Dynamax, to make sure it's worth chasing but not broken, as that's the Technique that Raid awards.
Micro-progression within the facility will exist to a small extent, but nothing like the carbon-copy WoW loot clone that oldheads may remember.
Accounting for Real Life
It's becoming clearer that we need to rethink how we handle scheduling and DQ as more and more of our players age out of school and into adult life. We're looking to build two complimentary features: Ref Assist (for refs) and Iceboxing (for players), to help users have more control over the time they spend on this game, and how it fits into their real-life schedule. We're also opening the floor to a broader conversation regarding DQ as a concept, and how we can make it work in a way that helps people play the game and earn rewards, rather than threatening them for future uncertainty.
Ref Assist will be a feature, if it works how we would like, where a referee can ask a subref to tag in for them only until a specified date, whereupon the original ref promises to resume refereeing. We're hoping this feature lets referees more confidently take reffings, even if there's a chance they won't be around for all of it, because they'll have a stress-free escape route. We're also hoping that novice referees help themselves to any short-term Assists that other refs ask for, as a safe way to get one or two rounds of practice as a referee.
Iceboxing (or just "icing") will be a feature wherein all players in a match agree to postpone, or "ice", that match, until an agreed-upon date. No player or referee's DQ would begin to elapse until after the specified thawing time. We want to ensure that this feature hits the following marks:
Iceboxing (or just "icing") will be a feature wherein all players in a match agree to postpone, or "ice", that match, until an agreed-upon date. No player or referee's DQ would begin to elapse until after the specified thawing time. We want to ensure that this feature hits the following marks:
- The opponent should feel comfortable accepting or refusing to ice a match. (It shouldn't be culturally obligate.)
- The asker should feel comfortable asking. (It should be culturally reasonable to ask.)
- A maximum iceboxing time (most likely a calendar month, date-to-date) should be established.
- The rules for resuming the match should be well-defined:
- If only some players return early to post, the other players may still leave the match on ice until the agreed upon date. (no psych-outs)
- If all players return early to post, the match can thaw and resume early.
- We need a solution for referees of iced matches. Getting robbed of the rest of your reffing awards, because a match of yours was iced for the rest of your foreseeable free time (forcing you to call for a Ref Assist, most likely), feels bad. Suggestions welcome.
- We also need a solution for finding thawed matches a referee in a reasonable timespan. Suggestions welcome.
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Everything mentioned in the radar post sounds good. Some comments:
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On an unrelated note, I'm just leaving this link here so that I don't forget about it. I've been cross-referencing CAPs' DAT movepools against the Move Tiering sheet when approving, but I've had a devil of a time finding said sheet when I needed it.
- I actually think that every Status condition is currently in a good place. I'd like to see Grass Whistle's duration extended to two actions, though; it has the lowest Accuracy of any obtainable Sleep-Inducing Move, and it's nearly exclusively learned by either mediocre, Grass-type support Pokemon that could really use some extra oomph or by Pokemon that also learn the mostly superior Sleep Powder.
- Does the term "3v1" for Raids mean three Pokemon on a single player's team, or three players fighting a single boss as seen in cartridge games' Raids? Either would have its own interesting gameplay connotations, but I'd like to know what to expect. I'd like to see the return of two-player team Raids a la seasonal events or old Raids, too.
- I think Dynamax could probably be balanced by leaving it as is but allowing a player to use the technique while ordering second. Almost every Max Move has a solid BAP and an effect that's valuable in setting up plays; Dynamax is just somewhat unappealing as a mechanic because it entails the sacrifice of a Pokemon's entire support and defensive movepool (aside from Protection) at a stage of the game when such options are dearly needed. Successful first order plays require control over an opponent's options, which is generally achieved through substitutions. Like how Choice Items are best when ordering second because they directly remove their users' substitutions, Dynamax simulates the same effect by replacing potentially helpful Moves with straight attacks and Max Guard; the difference is that Choice Items absolutely rock on second order to compensate for this downside.
- I don't really have anything helpful to suggest about DQ, but I'll offer a musing about my perception of DQ's purpose. DQ was enforced more strictly and called more frequently when I started playing way back in late Gen V / early Gen VI ASB, and it continued to decide important matches through Gen VII. Nowadays, it seems that DQ has become an implicit projection of expected battle durations. Even League Circuit matches, whose high stakes and inflexible match deadlines would suggest a reduction in the frequency of wins earned through the traditional team-wipe strategy, rarely end in DQ. Maybe our collective empathy for our fellow players has increased, or maybe we're all just better at honoring our commitments.
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On an unrelated note, I'm just leaving this link here so that I don't forget about it. I've been cross-referencing CAPs' DAT movepools against the Move Tiering sheet when approving, but I've had a devil of a time finding said sheet when I needed it.
You'll be happy to know that Move Levels are a DAT tab as of... whenever I added it, between "Combos" and "Reference". You can import this into your own gsheets for data reference, sorting, etc using the nice IMPORTRANGE() command. I keep meaning to turn this list of minor-adjustments (including this new tab) that I have sitting around into a more formal patch note, and then kicking it down the road. Come to think of it, I need to fill in "How to use the DAT" in the handbook still, once I've finally cleaned up 2.5 and its neighbors.
Raids would be a single player. Team content is an endeavor we can pursue when more facilities are open — people need somewhere besides Realgam to Level, badly.
Dynamax is more likely to just not lock away normal moves, frankly, than it is to see second order. Like Tera, we're worried about what its future would look like when it becomes more available, and has 2-3 users or more in every serious match. Much of our work to make ordering first more bearable would go out the window if any second order could be a Dynamax orderset in theory.
It feels weird to buff mechanics that aren't released before one that is (Z-Moves), but I do still believe it's best to not overload Realgam even more by asking people to chase a mechanic as well as EXP there. For now.
Raids would be a single player. Team content is an endeavor we can pursue when more facilities are open — people need somewhere besides Realgam to Level, badly.
Dynamax is more likely to just not lock away normal moves, frankly, than it is to see second order. Like Tera, we're worried about what its future would look like when it becomes more available, and has 2-3 users or more in every serious match. Much of our work to make ordering first more bearable would go out the window if any second order could be a Dynamax orderset in theory.
It feels weird to buff mechanics that aren't released before one that is (Z-Moves), but I do still believe it's best to not overload Realgam even more by asking people to chase a mechanic as well as EXP there. For now.
Anyone have any neat ideas for getting a mon that has something like "This strategy isnt normally very good on cart but it might actually be cooking on BBP"? thinking about mons to get
I was thinking about something like revenge or avalanche strats or just like "slow but powerful mons" like
crabominable or something like that. just fun bbp stuff
I was thinking about something like revenge or avalanche strats or just like "slow but powerful mons" like
crabominable or something like that. just fun bbp stuff
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Enjoy superbuffed Normalize! Definitely not a beginer-friendly Pokémon in my opinion though.
Any Belly Drummer works too, I think.
Two-turn moves are much better here so if you grab something that quite enjoys using Solar Beam or Sky Attack you might have fun.
Belly Drum you say... 
time for some big boys...
Two-turn moves would incline me to believe that meteor beam
beheeyem could go hard.. maybe even if i buy 
nihilego later?
A really funny interaction is lightning rod and meteor beam giving you a +2 spatt rhyperior
Also: Meteor Beam Shell Smash
Omastar??? real???
time for some big boys...Two-turn moves would incline me to believe that meteor beam
beheeyem could go hard.. maybe even if i buy nihilego later?A really funny interaction is lightning rod and meteor beam giving you a +2 spatt
rhyperiorAlso: Meteor Beam Shell Smash
Omastar??? real???
In BBP, negative priority attacks aren't so much of a strategy as they are tools to circumvent D/E moves and certain damage-returning attacks. As for "big 'mons," there are several archetypes that are categorized under the umbrella of slow and strong, but I believe you would have the most success in searching for those that carry utility options such as statuses or hazard manipulation or come equipped with abnormal defensive characteristics to offset their off-putting speed disadvantage. Some examples of these include Pyroak, Conkeldurr, and Snorlax, each of which also possesses individual traits that cement its viability: Pyroak can spread burn, paralysis, poison, and sleep while boasting significantly above average bulk, sets Stealth Rock when given free turns, and demands specific counterplay to prevent it from running away with a damage race; Conkeldurr is one of the most consistently powerful attackers in BBP (historically, the system was reworked to nerf this guy's DPA), threatening ORKO's against opponents weak to its strongest moves and "combo'ing" much of the rest with a fourth-action Mach Punch, combines high HP with enough defensive tools (D/E, Bide, Counter) to avoid being easily exploited when ordering second, and utilizes moves such as Taunt and Defog to set up plays or alleviate pressure on its team; and Snorlax, whose abilities and natural bulk grant it extreme longevity, can play well with many different items or strategies, and that can lock opponents into a sequence of distressing status conditions. Alternatively, other popular choices include Alolan Muk, which pairs the regenerative capability of Snorlax with the disruption tools of a mon 50 points faster and 20 HP weaker, and Ursaluna, the instant-classic Gen IX "statball" that has been recently terrorizing battles with its explosive DPA and Belly Drum. Overall, there is a plethora of great Pokemon that fit these descriptions, so I would encourage you to explore their ranks if seeking new purchases.Anyone have any neat ideas for getting a mon that has something like "This strategy isnt normally very good on cart but it might actually be cooking on BBP"? thinking about mons to get
I was thinking about something like revenge or avalanche strats or just like "slow but powerful mons" like
Ahh... darn. belly drum sadness.
Also this gives me a chance to talk about solar beam and sky attack mons yippee
Holy HELL xurkitree might be an actual beast, bro has solar beam thunderbolts and tail glow access... he may be cooking. def getting this guy.
Mmm the mega goes kinda hard? unsure how lightning rod works on a mega but if it goes +1 then solar beam be hitting like a truck (if only it got draco meteor... pain of dragon megas)
Sky attack is WILDLY unfortunate. at least it has sheer force boosts. Flinching on a -1 priority move... dang.
The head honcho on its way to have a 50% chance to do a crit sky attack and night slash off 9 attack is neat. also has u-turn and comeuppance, kinda cool tbh
sheer force woohoo!!! same attack as honchkrow and has the same boosts thanks to sf i think? Keen eye brave bird into mons that have higher defence is nice
also shout out to pory for analytic skull bash and solar beam what a cool mon i have GOT to catch that porygon z in safari for real that thing is actually taunting and haunting me
Ive also been having my eye on arboliva despite arboliva possibly not being a DPA kind of mon?
Also this gives me a chance to talk about solar beam and sky attack mons yippee
Holy HELL xurkitree might be an actual beast, bro has solar beam thunderbolts and tail glow access... he may be cooking. def getting this guy. Mmm the mega goes kinda hard? unsure how lightning rod works on a mega but if it goes +1 then solar beam be hitting like a truck (if only it got draco meteor... pain of dragon megas)Sky attack is WILDLY unfortunate. at least it has sheer force boosts. Flinching on a -1 priority move... dang.
The head honcho on its way to have a 50% chance to do a crit sky attack and night slash off 9 attack is neat. also has u-turn and comeuppance, kinda cool tbh sheer force woohoo!!! same attack as honchkrow and has the same boosts thanks to sf i think? Keen eye brave bird into mons that have higher defence is nicealso shout out to pory for analytic skull bash and solar beam what a cool mon i have GOT to catch that porygon z in safari for real that thing is actually taunting and haunting me
This is really good, thanks! Pyroak is the most mysterious out of the 3 for me but it seems neat with its contrary stuff. Didnt know about alolan muk having regenerative capabilities though. Conkeldurr seems neat but idk how to feel having another guts user. Will have to keep all of this stuff in mind. I am a pretty big DPA fan after all.
Ive also been having my eye on arboliva despite arboliva possibly not being a DPA kind of mon?
I'll just give you some information and let you draw your own conclusions. As a disclaimer, these statements might skew more theoretical than practical; no one has a high-level Arboliva, but it's easy to make inferences from Arboliva's kit.
Arboliva's strengths are longevity, Grass-type damage output, and team support. 90/7/8 bulk is well above the metagame standard—the game was designed under the assumption that the average Pokemon would have a statline of either 90/8/6/n/6/m or 90/x/6/8/6/y stats—and is complemented by Arboliva's access to STAB Draining Moves, Screens, recovery, and Leech Seed. The combination of Rank 9 Special Attack with 12 BAP STAB Moves means Arboliva can heavily damage targets with Grass weaknesses even without an Item, which grants it a valuable degree of versatility. Dual screens and Leech Seed extend to benefit Arboliva's replacement, and a slow Encore can create openings for Arboliva's teammates. Seed Sower enhances all of these strengths, as the free Grassy Terrain it creates stacks an additional 2 HP of healing per step for Arboliva while creating opportunities for synergistic team building and boosting Arboliva's Grass-type Moves to nullify its opponent's Grassy Terrain healing.
In contrast, Arboliva's weaknesses are Speed, typing, matchup control, and vulnerability to certain status conditions. Grass / Normal leaves Arboliva with weaknesses to several common attacking types, while Bad Poison counteracts its gradual healing abilities. It does learn Safeguard, but a Base 39 Speed stat means it can't react to Toxic this way in most matchups, and this slowness also renders the support-oriented Arboliva easily Taunted. These problems are exacerbated by the fact that Arboliva is unable to leave a bad matchup without allowing its opponent to switch, in turn, unless it runs Eject Button or Red Card, as absolutely no phazing, pivoting, or (partial) trapping Moves appear in its movepool.
Hi there, I'd like to offer some of my thoughts on the state of the game, mostly related to the last radar post.
DQ / Accounting for Life
BBP is a very kind, welcoming, and accommodating community, first and foremost. In my opinion, that's one of its biggest strengths. By no means do I wish to see that changed.
Perhaps this is a hot take (and don't get me wrong, I'm very much guilty of this myself, both in facilitating it and taking advantage of it), but I think we can be a bit too nice when it comes to enforcing DQ. It's not uncommon to see matches dragging on for months, or forgotten matches being dragged out of the depths of hell, because no one really wants to call DQ on someone (save for in League Circuit). We're fairly good about issuing reminders, but that never tends to escalate into DQs or DQ warnings.
Of course, we all have lives to live outside of BBP, and often other things are (and should be!) prioritized. That's completely understandable, we've all been there. Ref Assist and Iceboxing sound like great solutions to account for those situations where there is a sudden/unexpected shift in availability. I also wouldn't mind partial counters, instead of no counters, for battles that end in FF or DQ, although likely with a minimum number of completed rounds.
Regarding DQ as a broader concept, I do think the playerbase in general could stand to be more honest with themselves when they accept reffings and battles, about if they'll really be able to fit it in to their schedule and/or mental load. I personally need to work on this. A commitment to a match should be just that, a commitment, particularly for staked and competitive matches, and we shouldn't be afraid to enforce the DQ timer, nor should we be afraid to make use of tools like Ref Assist, Icebox, or even just forfeiting/getting a subref when they are required. If, upon this introspection, activity gets notably reduced, then perhaps it's worth evaluating the mental load it takes to see a BBP match through from start to finish, and if there is any way that can be helped.
Game Balance
I appreciate the work being done to make undesirable mons more desirable, and I hope we haven't seen the last of such changes.
I understand that nerfs should be used sporadically, to not enter the cycle of just "always nerf the best thing". That being said, I still think the nerf bat is a tool in the toolbox that should be used when appropriate. When players overwhelmingly dread playing against a(n easily acquirable) mon, I do think it's fair to evaluate them and see if there is work to be done to make them more palatable (such as the Unown debacle earlier), even if that results in a nerf. Yes, I know that means Ursaluna would be at the top of that list. There are over 1000 mons and there will always be the best ones, so again I'm not advocating to go nerf-happy, but if a mon/move/ability/strategy/etc. is so unsavoury that it starts getting banned from for fun tower matches, then yeah it's probably worth taking a look at.
I pretty much agree with everything said in the Small Battle Balances Changes section, and especially support another look at Freeze and Paralysis. I think it's generally fair to say that people want to, well, play the game, when they play the game.
Progression
Everyone knows we need more facilities to come out, so I'll leave that there. I'll talk more broadly about my thoughts on the system, though.
I think, at the end of the day, people just want to use mons they find cool. Some people find strong, meta mons cool, others specifically find their fun using "bad" picks, some enjoy seeking out mons with unexpected or unconventional strength, and some just like using their favourites regardless of their power level. Most probably enjoy somewhat of a mix.
That's all well and good, but there's one gripe here (which has been brought up on Discord), and it's that almost none of this "cool" stuff happens at level 1. Since new purchases start there, that means every mon is gonna go through, at minimum, one battle that kinda just feels like a slog. It's fair to say that level 1 battles are more binary than higher level battles. Lower-statted mons don't yet have the tools they need to overcome their low stats, so they need to generally be carried by a beatstick. But the beatstick just types Earthquake x3, which most people cited wanting to move away from in the transition to Gen 9. There are a few mons, particularly those whose power budget is in their ability to apply Major Status, who can get crafty at this level, but, from what I've found at least, you generally just put your mons in your winning type matchup and type Best Move x3, and hope your beatsticks do enough beating to carry your beatstick victims. And even the beatsticks often get an ability, move, or nature at the higher levels that makes their beating more intriguing.
I don't think this means the whole system needs to go, by any means. I do think some choice moves could be dropped from the higher levels to Level 0 or 1, to inject a little bit of spice into the battles. I also think that content designed for Level 1s should be notably easier/more forgiving than that for Level 2+, so that the pipeline from Level 1 to 2 flows nicely.
Other Stuff / Closing Thoughts
I think my points here all tie into each other. Again, I think it's fair to say that people want to use cool mons (whatever cool means for each person). If someone can't get their mons leveled up, or their battles all take forever, or their favourite just gets curb stomped by the unholy trinity (
) every game, then they're not really getting the chance to use their cool mons, which can be disheartening.
These are just my thoughts on things, so you can take them or leave them. Most, if not all of what I said, is known already, but it feels good to get these thoughts from my head onto the page. It's no secret that the mods are terribly busy, both with BBP and in general. We're here to support you just as you're here to support us. I think at the end of the day, we all want BBP to be a thriving game.
DQ / Accounting for Life
BBP is a very kind, welcoming, and accommodating community, first and foremost. In my opinion, that's one of its biggest strengths. By no means do I wish to see that changed.
Perhaps this is a hot take (and don't get me wrong, I'm very much guilty of this myself, both in facilitating it and taking advantage of it), but I think we can be a bit too nice when it comes to enforcing DQ. It's not uncommon to see matches dragging on for months, or forgotten matches being dragged out of the depths of hell, because no one really wants to call DQ on someone (save for in League Circuit). We're fairly good about issuing reminders, but that never tends to escalate into DQs or DQ warnings.
Of course, we all have lives to live outside of BBP, and often other things are (and should be!) prioritized. That's completely understandable, we've all been there. Ref Assist and Iceboxing sound like great solutions to account for those situations where there is a sudden/unexpected shift in availability. I also wouldn't mind partial counters, instead of no counters, for battles that end in FF or DQ, although likely with a minimum number of completed rounds.
Regarding DQ as a broader concept, I do think the playerbase in general could stand to be more honest with themselves when they accept reffings and battles, about if they'll really be able to fit it in to their schedule and/or mental load. I personally need to work on this. A commitment to a match should be just that, a commitment, particularly for staked and competitive matches, and we shouldn't be afraid to enforce the DQ timer, nor should we be afraid to make use of tools like Ref Assist, Icebox, or even just forfeiting/getting a subref when they are required. If, upon this introspection, activity gets notably reduced, then perhaps it's worth evaluating the mental load it takes to see a BBP match through from start to finish, and if there is any way that can be helped.
Game Balance
I appreciate the work being done to make undesirable mons more desirable, and I hope we haven't seen the last of such changes.
I understand that nerfs should be used sporadically, to not enter the cycle of just "always nerf the best thing". That being said, I still think the nerf bat is a tool in the toolbox that should be used when appropriate. When players overwhelmingly dread playing against a(n easily acquirable) mon, I do think it's fair to evaluate them and see if there is work to be done to make them more palatable (such as the Unown debacle earlier), even if that results in a nerf. Yes, I know that means Ursaluna would be at the top of that list. There are over 1000 mons and there will always be the best ones, so again I'm not advocating to go nerf-happy, but if a mon/move/ability/strategy/etc. is so unsavoury that it starts getting banned from for fun tower matches, then yeah it's probably worth taking a look at.
I pretty much agree with everything said in the Small Battle Balances Changes section, and especially support another look at Freeze and Paralysis. I think it's generally fair to say that people want to, well, play the game, when they play the game.
Progression
Everyone knows we need more facilities to come out, so I'll leave that there. I'll talk more broadly about my thoughts on the system, though.
I think, at the end of the day, people just want to use mons they find cool. Some people find strong, meta mons cool, others specifically find their fun using "bad" picks, some enjoy seeking out mons with unexpected or unconventional strength, and some just like using their favourites regardless of their power level. Most probably enjoy somewhat of a mix.
That's all well and good, but there's one gripe here (which has been brought up on Discord), and it's that almost none of this "cool" stuff happens at level 1. Since new purchases start there, that means every mon is gonna go through, at minimum, one battle that kinda just feels like a slog. It's fair to say that level 1 battles are more binary than higher level battles. Lower-statted mons don't yet have the tools they need to overcome their low stats, so they need to generally be carried by a beatstick. But the beatstick just types Earthquake x3, which most people cited wanting to move away from in the transition to Gen 9. There are a few mons, particularly those whose power budget is in their ability to apply Major Status, who can get crafty at this level, but, from what I've found at least, you generally just put your mons in your winning type matchup and type Best Move x3, and hope your beatsticks do enough beating to carry your beatstick victims. And even the beatsticks often get an ability, move, or nature at the higher levels that makes their beating more intriguing.
I don't think this means the whole system needs to go, by any means. I do think some choice moves could be dropped from the higher levels to Level 0 or 1, to inject a little bit of spice into the battles. I also think that content designed for Level 1s should be notably easier/more forgiving than that for Level 2+, so that the pipeline from Level 1 to 2 flows nicely.
Other Stuff / Closing Thoughts
I think my points here all tie into each other. Again, I think it's fair to say that people want to use cool mons (whatever cool means for each person). If someone can't get their mons leveled up, or their battles all take forever, or their favourite just gets curb stomped by the unholy trinity (
) every game, then they're not really getting the chance to use their cool mons, which can be disheartening.These are just my thoughts on things, so you can take them or leave them. Most, if not all of what I said, is known already, but it feels good to get these thoughts from my head onto the page. It's no secret that the mods are terribly busy, both with BBP and in general. We're here to support you just as you're here to support us. I think at the end of the day, we all want BBP to be a thriving game.
Triple post! We've been asked to sound off in the usual venues, so sound off I shall. Another long, semi-coherent, semi-organized post incoming.
---
Cool
I often use the word cool to describe aspects of the game, and will probably use it a lot throughout this post. While I feel like people already get the intent of what I'm saying when I use it, I'd like to start by elaborating a bit on "coolness" in BBP.
To me, cool means pretty much any mon, move, ability, item, strategy, etc. that embodies what a player hopes to get out of a game. When people want to do cool things, they want to do things that align with their vision. For example, I'm known for a more straightforward and aggressive playstyle than some others might be, but simply sending out something like, say, Garganacl and typing Rock Slide x3 to do 15 damage a step while my opponent can only do 10 back isn't exactly cool to me. What's cool to me is Pokemon who's moves, stats, ability, and item come together to deal crazy damage per step, enough to knock out an opponent in three steps. The highlight of the game for me is when I can take an opponent from 100% HP to 0% in one round. Often it leaves my own mon clingling for life just to get picked off my their target's replacement on the next step, but I still do it, because that's what I find cool. This is also why I dislike Dragonite (Multiscale specifically), for example, as it directly interferes with that. In other words, fighting against Dragonite will almost never be cool to me.
Of course, coolness is completely subjective, so by no means am I suggesting that the game be balanced around my fantasy of a one-shot-fest. In fact, I wouldn't even want that either, because if every round was a ORKO, then it would make them less special. On the flip side, if ORKOs were made to be never possible, then I would feel dejected.
Level 1's Place
To me, it feels like Level 1 in its current iteration doesn't really know what it wants to be. In some ways, it feels like it's supposed to be an extension of the tutorial Level 0, with a focus on simpler (and weaker) moves compared to the upper levels (after all, you only ever have to do one battle at Level 0). In other ways, it feels like it wants to stand equal to Levels 2-4 in terms of the content that opens up at each level, having a suite of facilities designed around its gameplay the same as those levels do. To be honest, I don't feel like it's doing either of these roles successfully.
I think there are goals that are currently way more vital than refactoring BBP to have one less level. I'd argue that getting facilities open, reevaluating DQ, and accommodating the upcoming Scarlet & Violet DLC releases are more important. What I think could stand to happen is a critical evaluation of the goal of Level 1. What is it meant to provide the game?
If it's meant to align with levels 2-4 as a true part of the leveling system, that is, if it's meant to be part of the "meat and potatoes" of the game, then I think it needs more spice in the available moves. In the next category I'll talk more about some moves that are, in my opinion, candidates for demotion.
If it's meant to be more of a "beginner level", an extension of the "tutorial" that is the single Level 0 battle we put people through, then I think that should be committed to. Retool the movepool at that level to be just enough to give people to get a sense of the intricates of playing, and retool the facilities at that level to focus on learning. This is the way that takes quite a bit more work of course, and could almost be seen as equivalent to wiping the level entirely due to the amount of retooling that would have to be done. However, I think I'd prefer something like this to just wiping the level entirely. Of course, the experienced players wouldn't want or need to go through this level just to raise mons, so some sort of fast track would be needed. That's a whole other can of worms that I'm not sure the mods want opened, but I still think the overall idea is worth a mention.
Move Demotions
Next I'll talk about some moves that I think could stand to be demoted.
First, there are a couple moves that are essentially Level 0 moves stuck at Level 3, like Power Gem and Zing Zap.
Next, since Weathers are already level 1, I don't see why Terrains couldn't be as well. Terrain Pulse might be a bit too much BAP for the level, though. Maybe some terrain counterplay such as Ice Spinner could drop alongside them, too.
But now for the real hot take. Personally, I think we should take a look at one or two of the overall "move suites" and move shift it down. By "move suite", I mean stuff like "all the moves that have good BAP and raise/lower a stat are level 3", "all pivoting moves are level 3", etc.
My pick for this is the Speed control suite of moves, for a couple reasons. Firstly, Speed control is already present a bit at Level 1, with Paralysis and moves like Rapid Spin and Dragon Dance. (Most) priority moves are also present at this level, so the idea of moving first is definitely highlighted. Second, I don't think the concept of "if I'm faster, then I can get the jump on my opponent" is too complex for what we're looking for at the early levels. I feel like this suite of moves would do a lot to inject some spice into the gameplay, and also not tread too hard on the other things Level 3 would offer (it would still vitally offer staples like Pivoting, D/E, Knock Off, the damaging Stat changing moves, and so on).
(And even if you demote no other moves, please demote Power Gem lol)
Facilities
I want to touch on the recently released tests for facilities.
I'll start with the Raid Frontier since I have nicer things to say about it. I really like the core of this facility. I think giving mons a unique job in the quest to take down a big boss is awesome and also helps mons who may struggle in the more traditional battles (we know who I'm talking about
) a place to actually do something. I personally hope there aren't many changes to the "core" gameplay of this facility, individual balancing of raids aside. Can't wait for this one to release, definitely gonna be spamming it!
I know I haven't given it an official test yet, but Safari looks less appealing on paper to me. I feel like it's asking for mons with rather specific skillsets (match up well against the habitat's mons, be able to meet the unique capture method, be able to reduce a mon to 50% (or to 30% to use great balls), be able to apply major status, and all within 3-6 steps). I've wanted to give the Level 1 habitat a test but I'm struggling to come up with mons who I'd feel comfortable relying on to do all of that. Getting 10 EXP for 1 mon seems doable enough, but I'm not confident in the process of getting more than that.
Difficulty as a General Concept
While this has direct ties to facilities, I wanted to talk about the philosophy of content difficulty more generally.
While I do think some level of like, actually using one's brain should be present at every level, I think those who crave challenge should look for it in Competitive PvP, Pinnacle Facility Runs, using the upcoming Boast system, or simply challenging themselves to use bad mons for things. In other words, base (i.e. no boasts, and with a generally solid team) early level content is not where the challenge should be.
(For the record, I'm not criticizing any current early level content for this, but I just wanted to get it out there while more facilities are being tested and balanced.)
Follow-Up Speed
I don't think you need to wait any particular amount of time after releasing follow-up work on work recently released. If you have an epiphany on how to tackle something on the radar a day after making the radar post, or find a new facility raid/habitat/etc. to be comically over or underpowered, then go for it, for example.
Handling the DLC
I personally know I'd hate it of new DLC content was held hostage to be tied to a BBP content update. Obviously I know it's not gonna be ready on release day, but if a content update is causing significant delays with getting the DLC stuff out in BBP, then I'd elect to separate them and get the DLC stuff out. In particular, if a potential move level update is holding back DLC content, then I'd maybe look to do the update with the second wave of DLC rather than the first.
Community Help
I know we are essentially operating on 1.5 mods right now. I implore the mods to not be afraid of seeking help from the community where there are opportunities for us to do anything. The worst case scenario would be our remaining mod force burning out and leaving us with nothing. I promise we can occasionally do things other than complain.
---
I hope these posts are like, good to be making. They're good for me, as it helps to get thoughts out of my head and onto the page, but I hope they're providing value to the community and to the mods in particular. I'd like to reiterate that all of this is just what I think of things.
---
Cool
I often use the word cool to describe aspects of the game, and will probably use it a lot throughout this post. While I feel like people already get the intent of what I'm saying when I use it, I'd like to start by elaborating a bit on "coolness" in BBP.
To me, cool means pretty much any mon, move, ability, item, strategy, etc. that embodies what a player hopes to get out of a game. When people want to do cool things, they want to do things that align with their vision. For example, I'm known for a more straightforward and aggressive playstyle than some others might be, but simply sending out something like, say, Garganacl and typing Rock Slide x3 to do 15 damage a step while my opponent can only do 10 back isn't exactly cool to me. What's cool to me is Pokemon who's moves, stats, ability, and item come together to deal crazy damage per step, enough to knock out an opponent in three steps. The highlight of the game for me is when I can take an opponent from 100% HP to 0% in one round. Often it leaves my own mon clingling for life just to get picked off my their target's replacement on the next step, but I still do it, because that's what I find cool. This is also why I dislike Dragonite (Multiscale specifically), for example, as it directly interferes with that. In other words, fighting against Dragonite will almost never be cool to me.
Of course, coolness is completely subjective, so by no means am I suggesting that the game be balanced around my fantasy of a one-shot-fest. In fact, I wouldn't even want that either, because if every round was a ORKO, then it would make them less special. On the flip side, if ORKOs were made to be never possible, then I would feel dejected.
Level 1's Place
To me, it feels like Level 1 in its current iteration doesn't really know what it wants to be. In some ways, it feels like it's supposed to be an extension of the tutorial Level 0, with a focus on simpler (and weaker) moves compared to the upper levels (after all, you only ever have to do one battle at Level 0). In other ways, it feels like it wants to stand equal to Levels 2-4 in terms of the content that opens up at each level, having a suite of facilities designed around its gameplay the same as those levels do. To be honest, I don't feel like it's doing either of these roles successfully.
I think there are goals that are currently way more vital than refactoring BBP to have one less level. I'd argue that getting facilities open, reevaluating DQ, and accommodating the upcoming Scarlet & Violet DLC releases are more important. What I think could stand to happen is a critical evaluation of the goal of Level 1. What is it meant to provide the game?
If it's meant to align with levels 2-4 as a true part of the leveling system, that is, if it's meant to be part of the "meat and potatoes" of the game, then I think it needs more spice in the available moves. In the next category I'll talk more about some moves that are, in my opinion, candidates for demotion.
If it's meant to be more of a "beginner level", an extension of the "tutorial" that is the single Level 0 battle we put people through, then I think that should be committed to. Retool the movepool at that level to be just enough to give people to get a sense of the intricates of playing, and retool the facilities at that level to focus on learning. This is the way that takes quite a bit more work of course, and could almost be seen as equivalent to wiping the level entirely due to the amount of retooling that would have to be done. However, I think I'd prefer something like this to just wiping the level entirely. Of course, the experienced players wouldn't want or need to go through this level just to raise mons, so some sort of fast track would be needed. That's a whole other can of worms that I'm not sure the mods want opened, but I still think the overall idea is worth a mention.
Move Demotions
Next I'll talk about some moves that I think could stand to be demoted.
First, there are a couple moves that are essentially Level 0 moves stuck at Level 3, like Power Gem and Zing Zap.
Next, since Weathers are already level 1, I don't see why Terrains couldn't be as well. Terrain Pulse might be a bit too much BAP for the level, though. Maybe some terrain counterplay such as Ice Spinner could drop alongside them, too.
But now for the real hot take. Personally, I think we should take a look at one or two of the overall "move suites" and move shift it down. By "move suite", I mean stuff like "all the moves that have good BAP and raise/lower a stat are level 3", "all pivoting moves are level 3", etc.
My pick for this is the Speed control suite of moves, for a couple reasons. Firstly, Speed control is already present a bit at Level 1, with Paralysis and moves like Rapid Spin and Dragon Dance. (Most) priority moves are also present at this level, so the idea of moving first is definitely highlighted. Second, I don't think the concept of "if I'm faster, then I can get the jump on my opponent" is too complex for what we're looking for at the early levels. I feel like this suite of moves would do a lot to inject some spice into the gameplay, and also not tread too hard on the other things Level 3 would offer (it would still vitally offer staples like Pivoting, D/E, Knock Off, the damaging Stat changing moves, and so on).
(And even if you demote no other moves, please demote Power Gem lol)
Facilities
I want to touch on the recently released tests for facilities.
I'll start with the Raid Frontier since I have nicer things to say about it. I really like the core of this facility. I think giving mons a unique job in the quest to take down a big boss is awesome and also helps mons who may struggle in the more traditional battles (we know who I'm talking about
) a place to actually do something. I personally hope there aren't many changes to the "core" gameplay of this facility, individual balancing of raids aside. Can't wait for this one to release, definitely gonna be spamming it!I know I haven't given it an official test yet, but Safari looks less appealing on paper to me. I feel like it's asking for mons with rather specific skillsets (match up well against the habitat's mons, be able to meet the unique capture method, be able to reduce a mon to 50% (or to 30% to use great balls), be able to apply major status, and all within 3-6 steps). I've wanted to give the Level 1 habitat a test but I'm struggling to come up with mons who I'd feel comfortable relying on to do all of that. Getting 10 EXP for 1 mon seems doable enough, but I'm not confident in the process of getting more than that.
Difficulty as a General Concept
While this has direct ties to facilities, I wanted to talk about the philosophy of content difficulty more generally.
While I do think some level of like, actually using one's brain should be present at every level, I think those who crave challenge should look for it in Competitive PvP, Pinnacle Facility Runs, using the upcoming Boast system, or simply challenging themselves to use bad mons for things. In other words, base (i.e. no boasts, and with a generally solid team) early level content is not where the challenge should be.
(For the record, I'm not criticizing any current early level content for this, but I just wanted to get it out there while more facilities are being tested and balanced.)
Follow-Up Speed
I don't think you need to wait any particular amount of time after releasing follow-up work on work recently released. If you have an epiphany on how to tackle something on the radar a day after making the radar post, or find a new facility raid/habitat/etc. to be comically over or underpowered, then go for it, for example.
Handling the DLC
I personally know I'd hate it of new DLC content was held hostage to be tied to a BBP content update. Obviously I know it's not gonna be ready on release day, but if a content update is causing significant delays with getting the DLC stuff out in BBP, then I'd elect to separate them and get the DLC stuff out. In particular, if a potential move level update is holding back DLC content, then I'd maybe look to do the update with the second wave of DLC rather than the first.
Community Help
I know we are essentially operating on 1.5 mods right now. I implore the mods to not be afraid of seeking help from the community where there are opportunities for us to do anything. The worst case scenario would be our remaining mod force burning out and leaving us with nothing. I promise we can occasionally do things other than complain.
---
I hope these posts are like, good to be making. They're good for me, as it helps to get thoughts out of my head and onto the page, but I hope they're providing value to the community and to the mods in particular. I'd like to reiterate that all of this is just what I think of things.
Came back to say YES MOWTOM!!!!
I just want to share some thoughts on the latest update.
------------------
Status:
I don't really like Snow's first effect triggering only once per game per Pokemon. The limitation is noticeably artificial and unprecedented compared to the game's other once per game effects (i.e. Consumables), and it prevents Snow setters from fully utilizing their Weather against Pokemon that have already been hit by Ice-type Moves before said setters entered play, such as if a player wishes to chicken dance into said setter against an Ice-weak opponent. I might suggest tweaking the effect to trigger once per instance of the Snow weather condition per Pokemon instead.
Also, I'm somewhat glad to see that Swagger is no longer a dead Move in singles.
Low Levels:
I'm amused by this is a topic's presence on the mod radar, as I've been trying to think of a way to articulate my opinions on the state of Level 1 without suggesting the invalidation of the Facility heads' work. Level 1 is simultaneously a useful tutorial extension for newer players and an unnecessary speed bump for veterans that prevents a player from acquiring a competition-ready Pokemon quickly. I would favor a solution that preserved the Level for "educational purposes" while allowing players to bypass it more easily than by spending ~two weeks in a Facility; perhaps an option to advance a Pokemon from Level 1 to Level 2 by spending counters would suffice.
The Safari Zone:
It warms my old heart to see elements of the old Legend Run structure emerge in Pinnacle Safaris. That's a cool recycling.
------------------
Finally, congratulations, Mowtom!
------------------
Status:
I don't really like Snow's first effect triggering only once per game per Pokemon. The limitation is noticeably artificial and unprecedented compared to the game's other once per game effects (i.e. Consumables), and it prevents Snow setters from fully utilizing their Weather against Pokemon that have already been hit by Ice-type Moves before said setters entered play, such as if a player wishes to chicken dance into said setter against an Ice-weak opponent. I might suggest tweaking the effect to trigger once per instance of the Snow weather condition per Pokemon instead.
Also, I'm somewhat glad to see that Swagger is no longer a dead Move in singles.
Low Levels:
I'm amused by this is a topic's presence on the mod radar, as I've been trying to think of a way to articulate my opinions on the state of Level 1 without suggesting the invalidation of the Facility heads' work. Level 1 is simultaneously a useful tutorial extension for newer players and an unnecessary speed bump for veterans that prevents a player from acquiring a competition-ready Pokemon quickly. I would favor a solution that preserved the Level for "educational purposes" while allowing players to bypass it more easily than by spending ~two weeks in a Facility; perhaps an option to advance a Pokemon from Level 1 to Level 2 by spending counters would suffice.
The Safari Zone:
It warms my old heart to see elements of the old Legend Run structure emerge in Pinnacle Safaris. That's a cool recycling.
------------------
Finally, congratulations, Mowtom!
With the Safari Zone rework, I decided to pull together this handy-dandy Ball chart. Hope this helps anyone looking to plan a Safari.
From Safari Update Post 9/4/2023:
- We've balanced Fatigue values around 30 (easy), 31 (mid), or 32 (hard) total Capture Strength.
- 30: Can be caught with Poke > Great > Ultra > 8-ball.
- 31: Can be caught with three 8-balls and a utility ball (8+8+8+7)
- 32: Must be caught with four 8-balls.
| Icon | Ball Name | Conditions/Notes |
|---|---|---|
| - | Ultimate Ball | ----------------------------------------------------- |
 | Master Ball | Locks if Another Ball is Used. |
| - | 10-Ball | ----------------------------------------------------- |
 | Ultra Ball | Used immediately after a Great Ball. |
 | Sport Ball | User is in Hall of Fame (See League Circuit). |
 | Beast Ball | Target has the ability Beast Boost. |
 | Premier Ball | User has 5 or more Poke Balls  in their Pack. Usable as an 8-Ball if User has at least 4 Poke Balls in their Pack. |
| - | 8-Ball | ----------------------------------------------------- |
 | Dusk Ball | Weather other than Sun is in Play. |
 | Fast Ball | Target has 120 or more Speed. Usable as a 7-Ball if Target has at least 105 Speed. |
 | Heavy Ball | Target with 4 or more Weight Class. |
 | Level Ball | Target is Level 4; Only on the last throw of a Capture Round. |
 | Love Ball | Target is Infatuated. |
 | Lure Ball | Mud Sport or Water Sport is in Play. |
 | Moon Ball | Target has more stat drops than stat increases. |
 | Nest Ball | Target has a higher level than the user's Pokémon. |
 | Net Ball | Target is Trapped or Partial Trapped. |
 | Quick Ball | Only on the first throw of a Capture Round. |
 | Repeat Ball | Used immediately after Two Balls of the Same Name were used. |
 | Safari Ball | First Trek of a Safari. |
 | Timer Ball | On Round 4 or Later of a Trek. |
| - | 7-Ball | ----------------------------------------------------- |
 | Great Ball | Used immediately after a Poke Ball |
 | Dream Ball | No Conditions. Target Falls Asleep 1 Turn. |
 | Friend Ball | No Conditions. Target Flinches 1 Turn. |
 | Heal Ball | No Conditions. If Last Ball, Heals User's Party for 1/10 of Target's Remaining HP. |
 | Luxury Ball | No Conditions. If Last Ball, Grants Target 7 EXP if Brought Home. |
| - | Other Ball | ----------------------------------------------------- |
| Poke Ball | No Conditions. Begins Chain with Great Ball and Ultra Ball. Has 5 Capture Strength. |
 | Strange Ball | Has Strength Equal to Last Digit of Target's HP. |
 | Cherish Ball | Unassigned. |
 | Dive Ball | Unassigned. |
 | Park Ball | Unassigned. |
Last edited:
maxim we're sorry in advance for what we're about to do to your nice chart
The following is a list of:
- illegal Wild Behaviours [reason for illegality]
- almost-legal Wild Behaviours -> pseudo-anti-pedant
(i.e. not real anti-pedants because they aren't equivalent in doubles, but these mons are only used in singles anyways)
This list is provided mostly with the hope of avoiding players seeing those subs being reffed, and then using them in their own matches and getting wrecked.
Many more of these subs were illegal until our Rules Manager And Overlord added %hp as a valid thing to check. Thank you Lou <3
The summary below is probably much more useful than the actual list unless you either want to check my work or are in charge of Safari.
It's likely I got something wrong, did you know BBP players occasionally get sub rules wrong?
I'll edit this post if anything is pointed out to me.
- illegal Wild Behaviours [reason for illegality]
- almost-legal Wild Behaviours -> pseudo-anti-pedant
(i.e. not real anti-pedants because they aren't equivalent in doubles, but these mons are only used in singles anyways)
This list is provided mostly with the hope of avoiding players seeing those subs being reffed, and then using them in their own matches and getting wrecked.
Many more of these subs were illegal until our Rules Manager And Overlord added %hp as a valid thing to check. Thank you Lou <3
The summary below is probably much more useful than the actual list unless you either want to check my work or are in charge of Safari.
Lumiose -
Garbodor 1st sub -> if any opponent is not poisoned
both of Hypno's subs ["Major Status-inflicting move"]
Seismitoad's 2nd sub ["Major Status-inflicting move"]
Eviolite -
Dusknoir's sub [can't sub for "a combination"]
Porygon-Z's sub [negative action clause]
Primeape's sub -> if any opponent is not Ghost-type and your Defense stage is not negative
Dusknoir's sub [can't sub for "a combination"]
Ground Zero -
Tyranitar -> if any opponent is not Ghost-type
Dragalge -> if any opponent is not Steel-type
Krilowatt ["if none of your allies are Fainted"]
Gardevoir ["if none of your allies are Fainted"]
Hariyama -> an opponent is not Ghost-type
Lucario -> an opponent is not Ghost-type
Revenankh -> if your hp is not full and any opponent in play is not Ghost-type
Braviary ["if your stat stage total is positive"]
Pajantom -> if any opponent is not Normal-type
Exeggutor-A -> if any opponent is not Asleep
Decidueye ["if none of your allies are Fainted"]
Steelix -> if an opponent is not Ghost-type
Baxcalibur -> if an opponent is not Fairy-type and that opponent is not subject to Glaive Rush
Darmanitan-G -> if an opponent is not Taunted
Cloyster-> if your team has any Hazard and an opponent is not Ghost-type
Aggron ["if no opponents are Fainted including benched Pokemon"]
Glimmora ["three instances of Spikes"]
Swampert ["if none of your allies are Fainted"]
Walking Wake [negative action clause]
Iron Leaves [negative action clause]
cases of "is holding an item", not sure if that got patched:
- eviolite: sneasel
- ground zero: muk-a, grimmsnarl
Garbodor 1st sub -> if any opponent is not poisoned
both of Hypno's subs ["Major Status-inflicting move"]
Seismitoad's 2nd sub ["Major Status-inflicting move"]
Eviolite -
Dusknoir's sub [can't sub for "a combination"]
Porygon-Z's sub [negative action clause]
Primeape's sub -> if any opponent is not Ghost-type and your Defense stage is not negative
Dusknoir's sub [can't sub for "a combination"]
Ground Zero -
Tyranitar -> if any opponent is not Ghost-type
Dragalge -> if any opponent is not Steel-type
Krilowatt ["if none of your allies are Fainted"]
Gardevoir ["if none of your allies are Fainted"]
Hariyama -> an opponent is not Ghost-type
Lucario -> an opponent is not Ghost-type
Revenankh -> if your hp is not full and any opponent in play is not Ghost-type
Braviary ["if your stat stage total is positive"]
Pajantom -> if any opponent is not Normal-type
Exeggutor-A -> if any opponent is not Asleep
Decidueye ["if none of your allies are Fainted"]
Steelix -> if an opponent is not Ghost-type
Baxcalibur -> if an opponent is not Fairy-type and that opponent is not subject to Glaive Rush
Darmanitan-G -> if an opponent is not Taunted
Cloyster-> if your team has any Hazard and an opponent is not Ghost-type
Aggron ["if no opponents are Fainted including benched Pokemon"]
Glimmora ["three instances of Spikes"]
Swampert ["if none of your allies are Fainted"]
Walking Wake [negative action clause]
Iron Leaves [negative action clause]
cases of "is holding an item", not sure if that got patched:
- eviolite: sneasel
- ground zero: muk-a, grimmsnarl
Many subs use "no opponent". For state clauses in singles this is equivalent to "any opponent is not", but that isn't a real anti-pedant because of doubles.
The following sub clauses are used and appear to be illegal in a non-fixable way (which is fine! NPC behaviours can do that! it's just players should know not to try the same)
Illegal Clauses [and closest legal equivalent]
- Major Status-inflicting move [the state clause "has any major status" is legal.]
- a combination [specific moves/groups in combination are legal]
- negative action clauses [you can't sub for "an opponent is not to use Protect". you can do this with 2 subs as "if Protect ignore next sub" "if true use X"]
- if none of your allies are/if no opponent including bench pokemon is Fainted [but you can sub for a specific pokemon fainting, and it may even be a free sub in some cases.]
- if your stat stage total is positive [you can sub for specific single stages, or their relation to a single other stage, but can't do math with them]
- if $team has 3 instances of Spikes [as far as I can tell this is illegal, you can only check if they have Spikes or not]
The following sub clauses are used and appear to be illegal in a non-fixable way (which is fine! NPC behaviours can do that! it's just players should know not to try the same)
Illegal Clauses [and closest legal equivalent]
- Major Status-inflicting move [the state clause "has any major status" is legal.]
- a combination [specific moves/groups in combination are legal]
- negative action clauses [you can't sub for "an opponent is not to use Protect". you can do this with 2 subs as "if Protect ignore next sub" "if true use X"]
- if none of your allies are/if no opponent including bench pokemon is Fainted [but you can sub for a specific pokemon fainting, and it may even be a free sub in some cases.]
- if your stat stage total is positive [you can sub for specific single stages, or their relation to a single other stage, but can't do math with them]
- if $team has 3 instances of Spikes [as far as I can tell this is illegal, you can only check if they have Spikes or not]
It's likely I got something wrong, did you know BBP players occasionally get sub rules wrong?
I'll edit this post if anything is pointed out to me.
Could I convince anyone that Natural Gift should work with Berries that have been consumed during the round of its use, in addition to held Berries? I've noticed that ~1/3 of all Berries are consumed at the start of a round with no additional activation criterion, which means that they can't be used with Natural Gift unless a player burns a turn on Recycle. Also, the restriction to a single use of Natural Gift with a resistance-granting Berry is inconvenient when you're already temporarily trading your Item slot for coverage.