Resource Union Street - Casual Discussion Thread

[Keriel]

It would be nice if something had a format where unown was good. I understand it won't be good everywhere but my understanding is every active or planned facility doesn't really let it gather letters reliably (especially raid where it just starts in play...)
I think the mon is fine in standard b5p3 matches, to be clear. (We just don't play those.)
It would be fine in league circuit except that we have decided timer stall strats are allowed and so you cannot reliably expect to get to your 3rd mon, and it is only really good in that role.

 

[LouisCyphre]

How often do you feel blindsided by whether or not an ability or item is giving a power bonus or penalty?

We tend to build more support and anti-support for bonuses and penalties into each new patch. However, it's becoming clear that we haven't been as consistent as we'd like with what is and what isn't a bonus.

Often, we've turned bonuses into rank increases or other perks as a method of buffing Pokemon who have certain stacking (and thus, conflicting) abilities. This is probably the biggest source of the current inconsistency. So, we ask:

• Should there be a pass to make "bonus logic" more consistent?
• If we had more sources of "Attacks can't have power bonuses against you" in the game, would we need to keep the stacking rule?
• With current or with proposed tools, would you feel comfortable taking on Pokemon like Conkeldurr or Kleavor without the stacking rule?
• Are bonuses really distributed as inconsistently as we're worrying?

 

[Keriel]

I don't think this has come up for me.
I think the stacking rule needs to remain as is for now but could go away if attacks can't have power bonuses was more common.

 

[Gemini Taurus]

I have no real opinion on the first point posted here I think that being blindsided by power bonus vs not power bonus is probably less frequent than being blindsided by something like Water Gun for example. It's something people learn and I don't think too much effort needs to be put towards it.

Stacking rule however I want to stay no matter what, I really really don't have any desire in my body to fight Conkeldurr with a 17 BAP elemental punch regardless of introduced counterplay. We already have a bit of a community sentiment, at least on discord, of "oh, it doesn't have a power boosting, penalty ability? The thing is garbage!" And allowing stacking again, only makes that sentiment worse. Stacking removal has probably been my number 1 favourite change in recent BBP history and I really don't want that to go away personally.

I think we can definitely introduce more sources of "attacks can't have power bonuses against you" or any of its variants about abilities, items, etc, however if you reintroduce stacking, those start to feel like a necessity rather than an asset to me. They certainly would still have plenty of use with the game as is right now.

I also don't feel that power bonuses are that inconsistent as is worried, I feel like you should be checking the DAT when you play anyways, so you should also be checking what is and isn't a power bonus as you do.

 

[Keriel]

that's pretty fair. I'm not sure power penalty abilities make things not garbage though, they're usually -1 vs bonuses being +3 or more

 

[epicdrill]

So I went through the DAT and, as far as I can tell, the only ability that affects the damage of moves directly at all without being a power bonus or power penalty is Technician. Items are a bit more varied, but from what I can tell, there are 2 ways items alter damage dealt by attacks: power bonuses/penalties, or final damage adjustments, a distinction that from what I remember ended up being necessary for balancing reasons. For that reason, I don't really see the inconsistency as an issue.

That being said, I agree with GT that I strongly dislike the idea of removing the stacking rule. +9 BAP, even if it's only on specific moves, is absolutely ridiculous and shouldn't really be a thing imo. And does anyone *really* want to try to fight a Mega Aggron that effectively has 85/18/11 defenses against SE attacks?

 

[Mowtom]

Battery, Steely Spirit, and Power Spot aren't power bonuses. Nor are Hustle, Quick Feet, and Keen Eye. There could be others that I didn't notice but it's definitely way more than just Technician.

 

[P2X7]

I can't say that I've ever been blindsided by power bonuses, given that they can only conflict with each other if they would be granted by multiple Abilities. I assume that Abilities generally won't stack, but I read the notes for each PHB patch, and I check the DAT when playing against Pokemon that are outwardly bad or that are unfamiliar to me. The consistent pattern I've noticed is that junkmons' Abilities stack to give them a modicum of usability, while good Pokemon's Abilities don't because they need no such assistance. I don't think worrying about "consistent distribution" is necessary when helpful heuristics like this exist.

I agree with the broader sentiment that the current stacking rule should be preserved, but I also think that our metagame would become centralized around whatever anti-power bonus effects you would add to mitigate the rule's removal in such a situation. For example, let's imagine that such an effect were to exist on an Item. If I were given the choice between running this Item or seeing my supposed Conkeldurr check ORKOed by one of Conk's nuclear coverage options, I would bring at least two copies of that Item to all serious double-blind team-selection formats, and I would spend even more Backpack space on additional copies to ensure my other Pokemon prevail against the other offensive threats their kits suggest they should beat. This would deprive me of the room needed to run offensive Items, but the fact that they're so thoroughly countered by our hypothetical Item deters would make them dead slots regardless, leading to unfun ramifications on Backpack usage. Of course, this problem could be avoided if we were to restrict this effect to Abilities, but those Abilities' bearers would then become almost mandatory picks, harshly constraining the team-building process.

Anyway, I wouldn't be eager to fight pre-nerf Conkeldurr again, but I'd fight Ability-stacked Kleavor immediately; the only Moves affected by both Sharpness and Sheer Force in its Movepool are Cross Poison and (Rank 4 SpA) Air Slash.

 

[Dylando]

For some reason it does feel like penalties are like. only sometimes there? It may be my playstyle to do funny numbers so i like bonuses but man sometimes it feels real small penalty wise

Stuff with Penalties
Anticipation: 2 on SE (10 for self sacrifice)
Filter: 2 on SE
Fluffy: 5 on contact moves (You get hit for +5 on Fire moves though ouch)
Forecast: Marker-based, gained when switching forms
Friend Guard: 2 when no allies have fainted or its not singles and you have 2 mons
Hunger Switch: Full-Belly form, based on positive speed stage
Ice Scales: 5 for special attacks
Magma Armor: 1
Mycelium Might: 3 while using status
Oblivious: 1 for lower SC
Overcoat: 1
Poison Point: Based on Poison Counters on attacker (No there is not a cap. someone use Toxic Scolipede fr, -4 penalty by existing is really funny)
Pressure: 1 when attacker has less energy
Prism Armor: 2 on SE
Solid Rock: 2 on SE
Sturdy: 1

When everything is like. Yeah here's this Power bonus of like. 2 or 3 by using your best moves!!!! It feels like sometimes conditions are like. almost avoidable or negligible. Feel free to prove me wrong though as I am constantly smooth brain

Also uhhh. stacking

There are some mons which are like "oh my god i wished this stacked" ( kleavor and gumshoos (no guys adaptability strong jaw stakeout hyper fang is funny cmon ignore the fact I got destroyed by mabosstiff in realgam guys)) but then it'd end up buffing mons that are good even lacking stacking ( Conk conk here's the punching train)

Is there anything super stacked defensewise? Because I do wonder what would happen if we let penalties stack but not bonuses

 

[HydrogenHydreigon]

Is there anything super stacked defensewise? Because I do wonder what would happen if we let penalties stack but not bonuses

From what i can tell mons with multiple defensive stacking abils include:
Camerupt on SE (Magma Armor/Solid Rock)
Carracosta on SE (Solid Rock/Sturdy)
Forretress (Overcoat/Sturdy)
Revavroom on SE (Fliter/Overcoat)
Wailord on lower SC (Oblivious/Pressure)
Whiscash on SE + lower SC (Anticipation/Oblivious)
Wormadam on SE (Anticipation/Overcoat)

 

[Mowtom]

The big one is, of course, Sturdy/Filter Mega Aggron, who singlehandedly gatekeeps the rest of the list.

 

[Maxim]

Looking for a Partner for the October 2023 event.

I am planning to provide a Choice Specs Primarina Aggressor and a Black Sludge Roserade Protector, with the latter being my Trick or Treat Role. Basic plan is to leverage Toxic Spikes and Toxic to build up Poison Counters on the enemies and survive with Poison Point and Synthesis. Then Calyrex will be attacked by everyone using Shadow Ball (or equivalent). The plan for the bonus boss is to spam high power Dazzling Gleam on both bosses.

What I need is someone to provide a Supporter and another Aggressor to the strategy. Safeguard and screens are desirable for the Supporter, while the Aggressor needs a high SpA stat and access to Dazzling Gleam and something to hurt Calyrex with.

Partner should be able to order promptly and frequently, and be willing to discuss tactics, preferably on Discord.

If interested, please send me a PM on Discord (or Smogon if you dont have access).

 

[LouisCyphre]

Would it be better or worse for folks, if I were to organize the links in the quick reference into something like this?

And while I'm at it, would it be better for some sections to stay a list? Should they all be tables?

(The current quick reference, for reference)​

​

edit: ah fuck. thanks, Commander, for making the nov patch too big.

 

[Gemini Taurus]

Tables are more readable to me. I like having more fit on my screen at any given time.

I think they could all safely be table-ified and I'd be happy

 

[Hyjack]

Tables are mobile friendly, I vote +1

 

[Ayush_1]

Tables seem much more accessible & neat to me.

I'm totally up for it!

 

[P2X7]

Oh, are we making the decision to accept a Commander boost designate Tatsugiri as an occupied team slot that must be used later that match, a la Exp. Share or old Illusion? I'm honestly surprised that a Pokemon's ability to roll into League Matches at Level 0 and offer a consequence-free stage boost on every sendout has survived so long.

I think tables would use page space more efficiently than lists, so I would support their incorporation into as many reference pages as you guys deem appropriate.

 

[Maxim]

Commander is fine and does not need to be nerfed in the next patch.

Signed Tatsugiri.

 

[Mowtom]

How do people feel about the new format of the quick link reference? Personally, I liked the old list format more and find this new one much harder to parse.

 

[Hyjack]

Looks clean. I am new and didn't get used to the old format. Change is change, hard for some, but my fat fingers on mobile like this change. Though for High-QoL if the [url= was able to encompass the mini sprites, so that I could tap Porygon and also be taken to DAT, that'd be nice. Unnecessary, but nice.

 

[Mowtom]

(Lou has since updated the layout and I no longer find it nearly as hard to parse)

 

[LouisCyphre]

if i just ripped the term "That roll is Lucky / That roll is Unlucky" from a dozen ttrpgs and PoE as a thing effects can do, and defined it as "roll it twice and keep the [better / worse] result", everyone would nod along, right?

 

[Ayush_1]

Off Topic:->

My tags are unable to ping other users! Are other fellow members facing the same issue??

Hyjack to check once!!

 

[Hyjack]

I have made this tag using the brackets rather than @
AyushKr_PKMN
Did you get a mention?

Also Lou if you wanna add Advantage/Disadvantage I vote +1
I also vote that it be explicitly explained somewhere of course

 

[Keriel]

if i just ripped the term "That roll is Lucky / That roll is Unlucky" from a dozen ttrpgs and PoE as a thing effects can do, and defined it as "roll it twice and keep the [better / worse] result", everyone would nod along, right?

I like the idea of this being a mechanic a lot