I honestly think Golem has its place on teams, but I still often find it hard to put Golem on my teams, but that's not a knock on the mon. Personally I find it more safe to run Rhyperior, but that's just my play style and it's hard to replace a big boy like Rhyperior. I believe the more experienced Rock players who can make Golem execute his purpose should definitely use him, whether it be picking off Scizor, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Kelfki, or whichever steel type you're trying to nuke. I'm a washed player, so I could be out in left field on this topic, but I figured I would give my 2 cents about my favorite type.It's been a while since i last posted here, so why not talk about Rock, specifically how Alolan Golem has influenced Rock.
Back in the olden days, Rhyperior was Rock's main Mega Scizor check, due to its astronomical defensive stats, access to Solid Rock, and its high Attack stat to further bolster Fire Punch's power. It became a mandatory asset, since, without it, the Rock player would be forced to click x against Steel every time. While Mega Aggron could also serve this purpose, it would come at the cost of using Mega Diancie, which was inarguably the greatest offensive Pokemon on Rock teams, that also served as a check against Keldeo and Mega Medicham(assuming it wasn't running Bullet Punch).
Then, Generation 7 arrived and introduced Alolan Golem, who was a very promising addition to improve the Steel matchup. In the very beginning of SM, very few people actually used Alolan Golem due to the fact that its best Fire type attack was Fire Blast, which when coming off its measly 55 Special Attack would force Alolan Golem to carry a Z-move every time to even stand a chance against Mega Scizor. For reference, here's a replay from SM against Paleo during the Fall Seasonals of last November, right before USUM came out.
When USUM arrived, Alolan Golem finally received Fire Punch, making it much more effective against not only Mega Scizor, but against Steel as a whole, and finally solidifying itself as an option over Rhyperior. Free from the burden of Firium Z, it could now choose between Choice Band or Expert Belt, giving Terrakion the freedom to run Rockium Z much more often. It could also completely max out its Attack, a privilege it didn't have in SM due to the need to run Special Attack investment for Fire Blast.
However, with Alolan Golem becoming more prominent, the opportunity cost of Rhyperior became much more apparent. On Rock, Rhyperior was more than a Mega Scizor answer. It was a catch-all to nearly every physical threat in the metagame, ranging from Landorus-T, Excadrill, Ditto(if Terrakion was copied), Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, Gliscor, the list goes on. With Alolan Golem taking its place, many matchups featuring these Pokemon began to change. Using Alolan Golem meant you could never afford to run Life Orb Nihilego, as the absence of Rhyperior made Landorus-T a much larger issue for Rock teams. Alolan Golem absolutely had to be paired with a different Landorus-T answer, whether it be physically defensive Cradily, Choice Scarf Nihilego, or in some instances, Air Balloon Omastar. The lack of Life Orb Nihilego meant that breaking defensive cores on Water and Ground became much more difficult, and that Nihilego didn't have the raw power to punch through Gliscor in a single hit without it. Normal teams had a much easier time with a Ditto reverse sweep without Rhyperior to force it out 100%, forcing that job to fall on Shuckle to remove its Choice Scarf, whose Stealth Rock weakness made it incredibly difficult to be a consistent answer. Additionally, against offensive Mega Scizor variants, Sticky Web was a 100% requirement in order for Alolan Golem to outspeed and KO Mega Scizor with Fire Punch.
With all these benefits and faults in mind, I'd like to discuss a few Alolan Golem teams that I believe perform the best in the current metagame:
Team 1
Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Encore
Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch
Golem-Alola @ Expert Belt / Choice Band
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Brick Break / Stone Edge
Cradily @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Toxic
- Recover
- Mirror Coat
This first team has Choice Scarf Terrakion as its primary revenge killer, being able to revenge kill threats such as Mega Lopunny, Excadrill in sand after Sticky Web, and Tapu Bulu since it's carrying Poison Jab. Mega Diancie's final move could be a wide number of things, but for this team in particular, it's best running Hidden Power Ice when considering the team's very large weakness to Gliscor. If Flying is still an annoyance, the team can opt for Assault Vest Tyranitar to dent Gliscor with Ice Beam. However, with how passive the team is already, Choice Band Tyranitar's wallbreaking potential aids the team more. Cradily serves as the team's main answer to Landorus-T, being able to switch into any of its attacks from full health and beat it 1v1, even after Stealth Rock damage. With Wild Charge+Earthquake+Fire Punch, Alolan Golem is able to beat most bulky Steel-types that it traps. Brick Break is the main option in the last slot to make sure you can consistently break Klefki's screens, but you could also run Stone Edge if you feel that the Rock STAB is more important. As previously mentioned, the main issue with this team is how slow many of its Pokemon are, but it does patch up some of the problems that giving up Rhyperior tends to cause against offensive threats. Here are some replays:
Vs Water: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-776222084
Vs Normal: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-776224512
Vs Fairy(shows the benefit of Band Tyranitar over AV, being able to deny the Belly Drum from Azumarill): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-784598491
Vs Poison(had to play the long haul with Cradily late-game): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-738807824
Team 2
Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Calm Mind / Psychic
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch
Terrakion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
Golem-Alola @ Expert Belt / Choice Band
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Brick Break / Stone Edge
Nihilego @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic Spikes
Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Encore
This team is much more offensively oriented, with Nihilego being the revenge killer instead, allowing Terrakion to run a wallbreaking set with Swords Dance+Substitute. As stated before, Mega Diancie's last moveslot is largely diverse, but for this team I usually prefer either Calm Mind or Psychic. Calm Mind gives it the extra power it needs to get past a few pesky defensive checks like Rotom-Wash or Seismitoad, while Psychic makes Mega Venusaur easier to manage, since you don't have Cradily to switch in and chip it down with Mirror Coat. As for Terrakion, while it can choose to run Rock Polish, Substitute is more valuable for this team because of its vulnerability to Normal. Under sand, Terrakion's Substitute can take a hit from Porygon2's Discharge or Ice Beam, and while behind a Substitute Ditto is unable to copy it, which is extremely helpful for stopping a reverse sweep. For Nihilego, Toxic Spikes is a fantastic option for the last slot, specifically for the Fairy matchup, wearing down Azumarill and making it unable to outright win with Aqua Jet. However, what the team makes up for in offense, it's forced to give up Cradily's defensive utility, resulting in a much worse matchup against Ground teams, and forcing much more prediction against Flying and Swift Swim Water teams.
As such, here are some replays with this team to demonstrate how it functions:
Vs Fairy(Toxic Spikes weren't as important in this game since Nihilego lived Azumarill's Aqua Jet from full health, but with sand+poison, Azumarill gets worn down rather quickly after a Z-Belly Drum):https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-766496449
Winter Seasonal game vs Water(I did lose this one to a Waterfall flinch, but it still shows what Nihilego can do against Water after Swampert gets weakened and/or removed): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-688425460
Vs Steel: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-784596234
Vs Ground(also lost this one, the point is to show how much weaker to Ground this variant is): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-780864415
Overall, Alolan Golem has created a significant shift in Rock's matchup against Steel, and has created a deeper level of prediction within matchups such as Flying, Fairy, and Ground. But despite all the benefits it brings with it, it still doesn't completely overshadow Rhyperior, who has maintained its prevalence on Rock for 2 generations as an effective blanket check. But anyway, I'd be interested in hearing what anyone else has to say about Alolan Golem's presence on Rock teams.
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Metagame USUM Monotype Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Eien
- Start date
Stakataka is a mediocore pokemon on Rock because most matchups it wins are ones you already have an advantage in, with the only exception being Fairy, which it still struggles in due to Azumarill. Also Steel really does not struggle to switch into Terrakion that much with Skarmory and Mega Scizor taking Close Combat pretty easily. Alolan Golem is something I basically have on every Rock team because it can deal with both defensive and offensive Steel types that otherwise can be very annoying to deal with. Excadrill, Klefki, Celesteela, Skarmory, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn are all metagame staples and being able to deal with them in one team slot is very helpful.
Skarmory and Scizor both 2 hit ko by CC, so I don't agree with that statement. (Terrakion being banded of course)
Banded Terrakion is not a very common set, usually it runs Scarf or sometimes SD+Z-Move.
Banded terrakion is not the most common set for it right now on rock as Tyranitar is seen sporting a Choice band as a wall breaker and Terrakion runs choice scarf to deal with threats like Mega Sharpedo and Greninja (With sticky web support) for Rock-type teams. The other set which it runs is SD set and yeah it breaks skarmory provided it gets the opportunity to set up against steel match up.
Also got sniped lol
Either way, you have to respect the set, I never said it common at all. So, don't say "skarm and sciz can switch in" when there is situations where it can't.
I would like to take a chance and direct the conversation to both Zygarde's forms, 50% and 10%. For the sake of consistency, I'll be referring to Zygarde-10% as Zydog for future reference since that is its most common nickname. Moving on, I would like to argue for the potential unban of both its forms while banning Power Construct and Thousand Arrows, respectively. The reasoning for Power Construct to remain banned is because Zygarde-Complete form is deemed unhealthy for the meta with its high bulk between its HP and Defence stats along with it huge setup capabilities that would be too much to handle. Now for the signature move of Zygarde, Thousand Arrows. Thousand Arrows was deemed unhealthy for the meta due to Zygarde being able to invalidate types such as Fire, Electric, and Steel to an extent. It also could break through the Flying core with Thousand Arrows + Z-Outrage along with Dragon Dance. My argument is mainly to bring back both form of Zygarde without Power Construct and Thousand Arrows because I believe they are more balanced without those two aspects. Although, I'd like to address the potential argument that banning a move would be a complex ban.
When you look at the restrictions in Monotype in terms of clauses, you will see the Swagger, Evasion, and Baton Pass clauses. These clauses themselves are complex bans because these are actual moves that are not allowed in competitive play. I would like to state right now that I understand why these moves are banned in the first place, my point is that there are moves banned from Monotype period. I would like to raise the question asking how come these complex bans are justified but Thousand Arrows is not? If the concept of it being a complex ban does not lineup with Smogon's criteria of being an official tier, that is understandable. Although, if that is the case, Monotype should remove the Swagger clause because it isn't listed on the Smogon-wide clauses anymore but that's digresses from what I am posting about.
I would love to read the thoughts and opinions of you all.
When you look at the restrictions in Monotype in terms of clauses, you will see the Swagger, Evasion, and Baton Pass clauses. These clauses themselves are complex bans because these are actual moves that are not allowed in competitive play. I would like to state right now that I understand why these moves are banned in the first place, my point is that there are moves banned from Monotype period. I would like to raise the question asking how come these complex bans are justified but Thousand Arrows is not? If the concept of it being a complex ban does not lineup with Smogon's criteria of being an official tier, that is understandable. Although, if that is the case, Monotype should remove the Swagger clause because it isn't listed on the Smogon-wide clauses anymore but that's digresses from what I am posting about.
I would love to read the thoughts and opinions of you all.
In regard to the clauses you mentioned: double team, swagger, and baton pass are owned by more than 1 pokemon. Instead of banning all of the mons (which would have been alot), you set them free and bind the unwanted move(s). In this zydog case the move(or ability) to pokemon ratio is 1:1, so we would be freeing one mon for binding a move. Complex just means nit picky in a way that doesn't yield many benefits yet is an outlier rule that can cause confusion. A ban like this would allow for the discussion of banning techno blast on genesect, or xerneas with geomancy. After a lot of bans like this are implemented, you would have to study the rules like a math test. I would gamble people looking for a diversion aren't looking to study.
I don't think that route is somehow evil, but it does look like a lot of testing and discussion that quite frankly is up to the people in charge as a matter of taste. "Don't feel like it," would be valid because there are 37 ways to crack an egg.
Keeping the pokemon as close to cartridge while retaining competitive gameplay is the "smogon way" as I understand it. Alternatively you could say unban zydog because the only types that don't have a poke that avoids 2hko from banded dog is fire and electric(outside of shuca berry). I personally wouldn't like this because revenge killing 115 base speed is tough and I despise mons that seemingly just destroy certain mono teams on their own. We have a few already that I would like to see vanish.
Side note, I wouldn't mind seeing swagger unbanned, I'd add it to 0 of my teams.
In regards to Jahkem ’s post I’d like to propose my own set of unbannings:
Mega Kanghaskhan + Seismic Toss:
This combination is the only thing that makes mega kanghaskhan innately broken. Especially in monotype where a lot of types are more balanced, and mega kanghaskhan would two hit ko pretty much anything with a base hp stat of under 100. Mega lopunny is better in most ways so it would promote some diversity
Aegislash + King’s Shield:
This is the combination that got aegislash banned from mono. The uncompetitive 50/50’s that could cost you a pokemon are gone! Aegislash would still be useful as a lo mixed attacker or with band/specs it would hit incredibly hard while being easy to manage since it would adopt a more hit and run approach rather than force those dreaded 50/50’s that got it banned in the first place.
Blaziken + Speed Boost:
Speed boost + setup move on potentially swords dance with a z move or lo is what makes blaziken and it’s mega evolution broken. Remove speed boost from the mix?, and we have an inferior infernape with higher base stab in high jump kick. Also, the nostalgia factor since blaziken was the starter I chose in ruby and sapphire.
Dawn Wings Necrozma + ultranecroznium z:
The ability to form change and have a rediculous z move stab off of it makes this mon broken, though it’s typing isn’t as good as it’s brethren dusk mane necrozma. Removing the form change would make this pokemon much more manageable for teams, though we may end up with another hoops situation so maybe just ban z moves on it in general and maybe choice specs too. That is all!
Thoughts and opinions are appreciated as always. Hopefully everyone is on board with these as well.
(This is the can of worms we open if we ban thousand arrows + zygarde. Unban that and these unbans would also be justified :D)
Mega Kanghaskhan + Seismic Toss:
This combination is the only thing that makes mega kanghaskhan innately broken. Especially in monotype where a lot of types are more balanced, and mega kanghaskhan would two hit ko pretty much anything with a base hp stat of under 100. Mega lopunny is better in most ways so it would promote some diversity
Aegislash + King’s Shield:
This is the combination that got aegislash banned from mono. The uncompetitive 50/50’s that could cost you a pokemon are gone! Aegislash would still be useful as a lo mixed attacker or with band/specs it would hit incredibly hard while being easy to manage since it would adopt a more hit and run approach rather than force those dreaded 50/50’s that got it banned in the first place.
Blaziken + Speed Boost:
Speed boost + setup move on potentially swords dance with a z move or lo is what makes blaziken and it’s mega evolution broken. Remove speed boost from the mix?, and we have an inferior infernape with higher base stab in high jump kick. Also, the nostalgia factor since blaziken was the starter I chose in ruby and sapphire.
Dawn Wings Necrozma + ultranecroznium z:
The ability to form change and have a rediculous z move stab off of it makes this mon broken, though it’s typing isn’t as good as it’s brethren dusk mane necrozma. Removing the form change would make this pokemon much more manageable for teams, though we may end up with another hoops situation so maybe just ban z moves on it in general and maybe choice specs too. That is all!
Thoughts and opinions are appreciated as always. Hopefully everyone is on board with these as well.
(This is the can of worms we open if we ban thousand arrows + zygarde. Unban that and these unbans would also be justified :D)
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What others would follow th same concept? You can’t use examples like Techno Blast for Genesect and Geomancy for Xerneas when those Pokémon would be broken even without their moves. Heck, even Genesect, in Monotype at least, never really used Techno Blast and ran other coverage moves or setup sweeper sets that benefited the types it was used on.
Back to the main point, it’s the fact that in the past, we’ve had Pokémon that weren’t broken but a mechanic they had was inherently unhealthy for the metagame so the mechanic was removed instead of the mon. I.e. Shadow Tag for Goth and Wobb. I feel like this decision was the complete opposite of the STag result since you banned the the mon instead of the mechanic.
On mobile, sorry if this post doesn’t look as clean.
Ok let’s nip this in the bud because comparing Thousand Arrows to any of the examples you gave is flawed.
Thousand Arrows is a 90 BP Ground-type move knocks foes down. Is this inherently uncompetitive? No. Why? Because we literally have a move called Smack Down that has the same effect. For the sake of uncompetitive, the damage and type really doesn’t matter. If we are banning Thousand Arrows for being uncompetitive, that means knocking your foe down is uncompetitive in general, and we’d have to have a serious discussion about whether to ban Smack Down too. Of course, Thousand Arrows is not an uncompetitive move by nature, and that’s why it isn’t banned. The issue is and always has been Zygarde. Unbanning Zygarde and banning Thousand Arrows is misunderstanding what is actually the problem.
Now compare this properly to your examples. Shadow Tag prevents switching. Swagger is excessive confusion RNG. Evasion is god awful RNG. Baton Pass as a move is clearly encouraging ridiculous strategies that are uncompetitive. It’s not about the individual Pokémon here. The move/mechanic itself lends itself towards being uncompetitive. Thousand Arrows isn’t at all in the same ballpark.
For what it’s worth, complex doesn’t mean out of the question or bad. Monotype is itself built upon a complex ban. For example, you can’t use Infernape on any team except when all of its teammates share either a Fire or Fighting typing. Complex bans are discouraged because a simple ban works just as well almost every time and you’re probably not actually addressing the problem with a complex ban.
Thousand Arrows is a 90 BP Ground-type move knocks foes down. Is this inherently uncompetitive? No. Why? Because we literally have a move called Smack Down that has the same effect. For the sake of uncompetitive, the damage and type really doesn’t matter. If we are banning Thousand Arrows for being uncompetitive, that means knocking your foe down is uncompetitive in general, and we’d have to have a serious discussion about whether to ban Smack Down too. Of course, Thousand Arrows is not an uncompetitive move by nature, and that’s why it isn’t banned. The issue is and always has been Zygarde. Unbanning Zygarde and banning Thousand Arrows is misunderstanding what is actually the problem.
Now compare this properly to your examples. Shadow Tag prevents switching. Swagger is excessive confusion RNG. Evasion is god awful RNG. Baton Pass as a move is clearly encouraging ridiculous strategies that are uncompetitive. It’s not about the individual Pokémon here. The move/mechanic itself lends itself towards being uncompetitive. Thousand Arrows isn’t at all in the same ballpark.
For what it’s worth, complex doesn’t mean out of the question or bad. Monotype is itself built upon a complex ban. For example, you can’t use Infernape on any team except when all of its teammates share either a Fire or Fighting typing. Complex bans are discouraged because a simple ban works just as well almost every time and you’re probably not actually addressing the problem with a complex ban.
Fighting over the bolded portion is unnecessary because the specifics of who the mons are is not my point. Point is I guarantee you have less than 5 games of xerneas or genesect in an otherwise regular gen7 monotype game. True or not you didn't do any work, which means I have to rely on you being errorless in judgment which isn't fair. How come I don't get to judge :( ?
There aren't many other ubers that even if i took 1 move or ability, wouldn't still be super good so you have a point (-x stat nerf though). You are setting the stage for the future of monotype with this request though. You can't tell me how many zydog-like pokemon will appear, so you are essentially hoping no more zydogs show up in future generations so the load of weird bans is negligible.
I think this gen of monotype is fun and zydog being in it without thousand arrows could be fun too. I'm not really fighting you more than trying to clarify what you are saying. If you are saying zydog can be in, then what I have posted are reasonable conflicts. I'm assuming the parts you didn't quote you are in agreement with?
I don't think he has a misunderstanding. Zydog is an outlier case in that if he lost an exclusive move there really isn't too much to complain about in terms of competitiveness or affecting anything else. You are "simply" banning zygarde vs "simply" banning thousand arrows. Seems like the same thing to me except in one life I get a dog with 3 legs and in another you put him down. Also seriously if there is a guy that has swagger team beating down tons of other teams I would be excited so throw it my way please!
There's no justification to me that would unban Zygarde while complex banning Thousand Arrows. Going off as a standalone move, Thousand Arrows in itself is a powerful tool. In relation to STABmons (out of context for a sec), where the move can be used on other Ground-types, it is banned because of the zero drawbacks it has by invalidating the matchup between Ground-types and other Levitators such as Rotom-Wash and Hydreigon, as well as the Ground-types that had access to it had ways of beating many of its best checks individually (Diggersby, Garchomp, Excadrill, etc). In the context of Monotype, two mons only have access to this: Zygarde and Smeargle. Used on Zygarde, it is a powerful option backed up by various setup moves in DD and Coil, is STAB boosted, while also being a powerful revenge killer with Espeed priority that also makes it very difficult to revenge kill in return. Used on Smeargle, where it can basically do nearly all of those things and more because it literally gets every move, it should serve the same purpose as zygarde (right?)!
Re-introducing Zygarde and banning Thousand Arrows would imply that in itself, Thousand Arrows is broken, which is false. While a very powerful move, it really has power in the mon that uses it, which is just Zygarde. With many of the aforementioned qualities as well as its ability to switch between two different forms for either Dragon or Ground, makes certain matchups inherently impossible to fight and win (Dragon or Ground vs. Fire/Electric/Rock, Poison minus Mega Venusaur, and maybe Steel) because Zygarde has the advantage of running many options to fit any kind of build for its team, while also having a move that can invalidate a good chunk of matchups. (keep in mind this is coming from me who really wants zydog to be in this meta, but understands why it can't.)
In response to a Swagger unban, I'd be loosely for it, since there are multiple nerfs to Prankster, Confusion, Paralysis, and etc. helping to reduce luck factor. However, if counterplay is essentially "have Magic Bounce or a Dark-type on your team always" then my answer is no for the mindgames you have to play.
Re-introducing Zygarde and banning Thousand Arrows would imply that in itself, Thousand Arrows is broken, which is false. While a very powerful move, it really has power in the mon that uses it, which is just Zygarde. With many of the aforementioned qualities as well as its ability to switch between two different forms for either Dragon or Ground, makes certain matchups inherently impossible to fight and win (Dragon or Ground vs. Fire/Electric/Rock, Poison minus Mega Venusaur, and maybe Steel) because Zygarde has the advantage of running many options to fit any kind of build for its team, while also having a move that can invalidate a good chunk of matchups. (keep in mind this is coming from me who really wants zydog to be in this meta, but understands why it can't.)
In response to a Swagger unban, I'd be loosely for it, since there are multiple nerfs to Prankster, Confusion, Paralysis, and etc. helping to reduce luck factor. However, if counterplay is essentially "have Magic Bounce or a Dark-type on your team always" then my answer is no for the mindgames you have to play.
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I don't normally post here but I do think this discussion is p interesting.
So I personally don't think it's too bad an idea to just ban thousand arrows and not zygarde, as thousand arrows I'd what got it banned in the first place and without that it's nowhere near broken, and even kind of bad.
Of course this opens up a whole can of worms like wincon said "oh if that's the case why don't you unban [insert mon here with [insert move or ability here] but it's completely different with zygarde as thousand arrows is a Mon exclusive move whereas shit like speed boost and others are not. Therefore, banning thousand arrows has 0 effect on any other Mon except zygarde (and technically smeargle but it doesn't run it) but a ban on say, speed boost or the other would effect multiple mons. So the comparison isn't really there.
Of course in saying that you could also say "why don't you unban xerneas without geomancy" or something along those lines. And in those cases 99% of the time the Mon is broken regardless. Even without geomancy it still has scarf and specs sets being almost as devastating. Whereas zygarde without thousand arrows would be completely different in that it's nowhere near as hard to handle.
Also, of course you could say that thousand arrows isn't in itself a broken move and is broken in just the hands of zygarde, however itd be different if a bunch of mons learned it and zygarde was still the only one broken with it it'd be clear that zygarde was the reason and a zygarde ban would be due. But because of the fact that zygarde is the only Mon with it it's it's easy to just say that zyg is broken and to ban it, when in reality thousand arrows is just a move not fit for a tier like monotype. Types like fire, electric, etc just aren't built to handle a move like thousand arrows. You can say "well it's not broken on smeargle so it's not broken" that doesn't really sit right with me because then you could say shit like "since damp rock is only broken in combination with drizzle, why don't you just ban drizzle mons and keep damp rock unbanned" which is obviously stupid. The fact of the matter is that if any other Mon with decent attack got tarrows we wouldn't be having this discussion and tarrows would already be banned by itself.
tbf I honestly couldn't care less whether this got unbanned or not but I thought it was a pretty interesting topic and was p bored so I wanted to give my 2 cents.
So I personally don't think it's too bad an idea to just ban thousand arrows and not zygarde, as thousand arrows I'd what got it banned in the first place and without that it's nowhere near broken, and even kind of bad.
Of course this opens up a whole can of worms like wincon said "oh if that's the case why don't you unban [insert mon here with [insert move or ability here] but it's completely different with zygarde as thousand arrows is a Mon exclusive move whereas shit like speed boost and others are not. Therefore, banning thousand arrows has 0 effect on any other Mon except zygarde (and technically smeargle but it doesn't run it) but a ban on say, speed boost or the other would effect multiple mons. So the comparison isn't really there.
Of course in saying that you could also say "why don't you unban xerneas without geomancy" or something along those lines. And in those cases 99% of the time the Mon is broken regardless. Even without geomancy it still has scarf and specs sets being almost as devastating. Whereas zygarde without thousand arrows would be completely different in that it's nowhere near as hard to handle.
Also, of course you could say that thousand arrows isn't in itself a broken move and is broken in just the hands of zygarde, however itd be different if a bunch of mons learned it and zygarde was still the only one broken with it it'd be clear that zygarde was the reason and a zygarde ban would be due. But because of the fact that zygarde is the only Mon with it it's it's easy to just say that zyg is broken and to ban it, when in reality thousand arrows is just a move not fit for a tier like monotype. Types like fire, electric, etc just aren't built to handle a move like thousand arrows. You can say "well it's not broken on smeargle so it's not broken" that doesn't really sit right with me because then you could say shit like "since damp rock is only broken in combination with drizzle, why don't you just ban drizzle mons and keep damp rock unbanned" which is obviously stupid. The fact of the matter is that if any other Mon with decent attack got tarrows we wouldn't be having this discussion and tarrows would already be banned by itself.
tbf I honestly couldn't care less whether this got unbanned or not but I thought it was a pretty interesting topic and was p bored so I wanted to give my 2 cents.
Aegislash without the aegis when? Without King's Shield, surely it won't merit a ban like Zygarde
I think there is some truth in the statement that if TArrows had a wider distribution, it would be banned because it's just not meant for a tier like Monotype, but in practicality, that's not a thing since TArrows is an exclusive move and will never have a wide distribution. There is the slim chance another legendary Pokemon can pick up Thousand Arrows, much like how Rayquaza nabbed V-Create, but chances are that Pokemon would be broken in of itself too. I think of TArrows and Zygarde as one entity because of that and one can't be unbanned without the other without creating some sort of discrepancy or ill precedence in policy
I think there is some truth in the statement that if TArrows had a wider distribution, it would be banned because it's just not meant for a tier like Monotype, but in practicality, that's not a thing since TArrows is an exclusive move and will never have a wide distribution. There is the slim chance another legendary Pokemon can pick up Thousand Arrows, much like how Rayquaza nabbed V-Create, but chances are that Pokemon would be broken in of itself too. I think of TArrows and Zygarde as one entity because of that and one can't be unbanned without the other without creating some sort of discrepancy or ill precedence in policy
Just like the others have said, Thousand Arrows is broken for a tier like Monotype since types like Fire, Electric, and even Steel and Poison to an extent have issues playing around a move like that. Also, if you want to use the concept of knocking your opponent out the air as an example then that can still apply to Shadow Tag and Arena Trap. Instead of looking at the idea of trapping being uncompetitive in general, you guys looked at STag specifically for the reason it traps everything bar Ghost types versus Arena Trap that trapped all grounded mons bar Levitate, Flying types, and Ghost types. Arena Trap is allowed because it isn't as bad as STag was in the metagame. If the idea of trapping as a whole was deemed uncompetitive, then both abilities would be banned to not complicate things. This logic is based on ignoring the fact that the two moves have different typing and base power as you mentioned for the sake of being uncompetitive.
Now, you say the issue is and always will be Zygarde. What makes it a problem unbanning it while banning Thousand Arrows? If anyone wants to have sort of reference on Zygarde, in terms of the 50% form, you'd look at its usage in XY/ORAS. It had little to no use during that generation and even if it was used, it wasn't an issue. I spoke with Vid about Zydog specifically once and if I remember correctly, his words were along the lines of "if we unban Zygarde with Thousand Arrows, it would be unhealthy. Although, if we unban Zygarde while banning Thousand Arrows, it would go back to having little to no usage in the current meta." Based on that premise alone, that doesn't seem to be a reason to keep Zygarde banned based on "it won't make a difference whether or not it is allowed".
Per my last post, I fully understand why things like Swagger, STag, Evasion, etc. are banned. It's just the concept of banning a mechanic because it's deemed uncompetitive should matchup with Zygarde being unbanned.
Wincon, I understand the intent of the examples you used but those aren't the best ones to use regarding this argument since the mons you mentioned are still broken on their own. Bar Blaziken I guess but taking Speed Boost away affects more mons than just it. Although, I do see where you are getting at where people will try to argue for some mons to be banned. But that would only matter if the mon they are mentioning isn't broken on its own.
I see what you're saying in a Mono OM such as STABmons, but I'd like to raise the question asking how many mons need to learn Thousand Arrows for the move itself to get banned instead of banning the originator? There's only 3 different users of Thousand Arrows. Zygarde's 50% form, Zydog, and Smeargle with the former two being the main abusers. Compare that to something like Shadow Tag where only Wobbuffet and Gothitelle were the only abusers of that ability yet they stayed while their ability was banned. You see where I'm getting at?
Like I mentioned in my reply to Havens, how many mons need to get Thousand Arrows before the move is banned instead of the originator? Because thinking of Pokemon and its move/ability/stats as one entity would get more mons banned than necessary.
EDIT: I guess I should mention I spoke with Vid about Zydog months ago. Not sure if the time gap matters, but I felt it should be included for a better context.
At the end of the day guys nothing positive would really come a complex ban in regards to ziggy. We never put anything completely out of the question in regards to complex issues like this, but honestly nothing good would come of it. These mons don’t merit a positive meta shift and having a new complex rule would just confuse new players and drive them away from our meta, which isn’t something we want. It really is an issue with just zygarde itself and I promise you guys we have had several discussions about it. For what it’s worth I was a pretty big proponent for wanting to unban during the initial stages of the meta, but all it would do is be a stain on our progression so it’s something we have been trying to put to bed.
In an attempt to steer this away from complex bans, I’d let to get some public input on ash greninja, hoopa unbound, damp rock & smooth rock. Since the conclusion of mpl I decided to take a pretty good look on how our meta looked when competition was at its highest. From what I saw there and through messing around on our ladder which is also highly competitive atm due to MLT, I got the sense that the meta is pretty balance heavy in its current state, which btw isn’t the worst thing in the world. We got to see a lot of head to head neutral matchups in which case the winner of these games would more likely be whoever actually plays and manages a game better. What I feel could become an issue however, is the fact the the meta could become overly effortless in the future to the point where balance heavy types are giving offense less and less light of day. Don’t take that too harshly though, we are in a pretty good state right now. There are a lot of useable types and even though the current state may seem a bit stale, that’s not necessarily a bad thing unless it gets too far out of hand. I won’t go too deep into my personal opinions on either of the rocks, hoopa, or ash gren because I do want to see what anyone has for input so I won’t say anything other than that they were all deemed at the very least controversial, which is why they deserve to be at the forefront of discussion.
Chill with ziggy tho pls (:
In an attempt to steer this away from complex bans, I’d let to get some public input on ash greninja, hoopa unbound, damp rock & smooth rock. Since the conclusion of mpl I decided to take a pretty good look on how our meta looked when competition was at its highest. From what I saw there and through messing around on our ladder which is also highly competitive atm due to MLT, I got the sense that the meta is pretty balance heavy in its current state, which btw isn’t the worst thing in the world. We got to see a lot of head to head neutral matchups in which case the winner of these games would more likely be whoever actually plays and manages a game better. What I feel could become an issue however, is the fact the the meta could become overly effortless in the future to the point where balance heavy types are giving offense less and less light of day. Don’t take that too harshly though, we are in a pretty good state right now. There are a lot of useable types and even though the current state may seem a bit stale, that’s not necessarily a bad thing unless it gets too far out of hand. I won’t go too deep into my personal opinions on either of the rocks, hoopa, or ash gren because I do want to see what anyone has for input so I won’t say anything other than that they were all deemed at the very least controversial, which is why they deserve to be at the forefront of discussion.
Chill with ziggy tho pls (:
idr feel strongly one way or another about most of those but I do have to speak on ash greninja.
NO
I've been playing a fuckton of ou recently so I got my fill and then some of ash gren and I'll just say, ash gren will fucking bodybag monotype if it's unbanned.
Certain mus are just won immediately if you have ash gren and their is nothing the opp can do. If the type doesn't have a sturdy dark and water switchin the mu is in your favor a million times over
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 143-168 (47 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 124-147 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 159-187 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 286-337 (94 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 141-166 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (keep in mind nobody runs max spdef)
And just so you don't forget dark pulse flinches so even if you take 49 you are still at very real risk of it just pulsing till it flinches and you die.
Some of the best spdef walls in the tier just lose to ash gren. Unless you're literally Chansey or muk or smthn like that you lose to it.
And let's not forget about water Shuriken being able to do 60 min to basically every offensive Mon that doesn't resist, as well as being able to do shit like this
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 474-564 (131.3 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So you can't beat it with drill in sand
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 210-252 (74.7 - 89.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And you aren't even forced to run specs, z move is basically a free nuke and will let you switch moves and get up spikes without getting locked in. Or you could even run gunk shot since that is available on ash gren now and be able to do shit like this
0- Atk Greninja-Ash Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 384-452 (136.1 - 160.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To one of the few switchins this Mon has
Long story short I think this Mon would be absolutely insane in mono. And to the argument "just don't let it get a kill" that isn't always an option, especially late game situations when your team is worn down it's going to get it's kill and now you're fucked. As cool as it would be to have this Mon to play with it'd be absolutely broken as shit.
NO
I've been playing a fuckton of ou recently so I got my fill and then some of ash gren and I'll just say, ash gren will fucking bodybag monotype if it's unbanned.
Certain mus are just won immediately if you have ash gren and their is nothing the opp can do. If the type doesn't have a sturdy dark and water switchin the mu is in your favor a million times over
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 143-168 (47 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 124-147 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 159-187 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 286-337 (94 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 141-166 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (keep in mind nobody runs max spdef)
And just so you don't forget dark pulse flinches so even if you take 49 you are still at very real risk of it just pulsing till it flinches and you die.
Some of the best spdef walls in the tier just lose to ash gren. Unless you're literally Chansey or muk or smthn like that you lose to it.
And let's not forget about water Shuriken being able to do 60 min to basically every offensive Mon that doesn't resist, as well as being able to do shit like this
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 474-564 (131.3 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So you can't beat it with drill in sand
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 210-252 (74.7 - 89.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And you aren't even forced to run specs, z move is basically a free nuke and will let you switch moves and get up spikes without getting locked in. Or you could even run gunk shot since that is available on ash gren now and be able to do shit like this
0- Atk Greninja-Ash Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 384-452 (136.1 - 160.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To one of the few switchins this Mon has
Long story short I think this Mon would be absolutely insane in mono. And to the argument "just don't let it get a kill" that isn't always an option, especially late game situations when your team is worn down it's going to get it's kill and now you're fucked. As cool as it would be to have this Mon to play with it'd be absolutely broken as shit.
I'll put in this last post so I don't cause any controversy. Maybe I don't have a full understanding of the philosophy of Monotype in the context you put it in or maybe I'm nitpicking here. But what do we exactly lose by allowing Zygarde into the meta without Thousand Arrows? From my understanding, we gain basically two different Pokemon that can fulfill some kind of niche roles for Dragon and Ground (mainly Ground to be honest) while losing virtually nothing. I'm pretty sure if you introduced this scenario "This Pokemon is okay but this move makes it unhealthy. Which do you get rid of? The Pokemon or the move?" to non-Monotype players, they'd be able to understand that the move should go instead of the Pokemon itself. Complex bans confuse new players and the council tries to avoid that, I get it. But something like this shouldn't be as complicated as other make it out to be.
Also, to shift the conversation from a somewhat interesting topic to controversial items and mons like you mentioned seems like kind of a weird shift of the conversation. That's just my opinion, though.
Before this post or any other posts referring Zygarde in the future becomes trouble for others, I'd like to propose a suspect for it. At least we could see some players give some sort of feedback and see if it would be fine to bring back into the meta without Thousand Arrows. If not, then that's fine. At least I still made an attempt trying to get it brought back.
Okay so you might not lose anything, but would Zygarde without Thousand Arrows really be worth using, and would that be worth the trouble of a complex ban?? I don't see where it would fit on ground teams and it does nothing on dragon teams. Maybe you run a sandless ground with zygarde but is this really worth the trouble? Basically what I'm saying is Zygarde with Thousand Arrows is invalidating too much which has been touched on previously and it's really useless without it, along with being a really troublesome ban.
I agree with Bluxio about Ash Gren, thing would be borked in mono. From Wanka's suggestions, I'd consider Damp rock to be the least threatening to the meta considering rain is really bad right now and having 8 turns of rain instead of 5 wouldn't solve the problems rain teams have in breaking common defensive cores such as chansey/p2 or pex/mantine and would probably be okay with it being unbanned. Think Hoopa U running around on psychic would be scary and think it should stay banned. Smooth rock is even worse imo as it would allow excadrill to run more SD sets which threatens a huge chunk of the meta as it could have 6 turns of +2 to take advantage of.
Edits prolly coming cause this is messy and short and I wrote this at 5:30am
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But saying "not having Thousand Arrows makes it useless and doesn't fit anywhere" isn't really valid reasoning. If for the sake of it being a niche pick for tournament play, then how is it not justified for use? Whether it's a random Z move like Z-Grass Knot Koko, or a niche Pokemon like Reuniclus, or a niche set/spread like Stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot with Refresh + Work Up, etc. people should have a chance to at least use it. I don't believe it would be as troublesome as others make it out to be.
Let me just simplify my initial post and say what should have been stated in the beginning.
Zygarde is banned while Thousand Arrows is allowed, that is a complex ban in itself. Why not just flip the bans and achieve the same result? But with banning the move and allowing the the Pokemon, you gain two different Pokemon that players can use however they see fit on their Dragon or Ground teams. If there is any sort of evidence that you need to potentially change your mind, let me know. I'll do my best to provide it.
Zygarde is banned while Thousand Arrows is allowed, that is a complex ban in itself. Why not just flip the bans and achieve the same result? But with banning the move and allowing the the Pokemon, you gain two different Pokemon that players can use however they see fit on their Dragon or Ground teams. If there is any sort of evidence that you need to potentially change your mind, let me know. I'll do my best to provide it.
It's different because moves are normally allowed. Just because TArrows isn't banned doesn't make anything complex. TArrows by itself is also not broken anyway (unlike the other banned moves). You still need the proper typing/stats to make TArrows into a big threat since Smeargle using TArrows is by no means a threat to the meta
If you do need a concrete number of TArrows users to satisfy me, then let's say 6 or more unbanned Pokemon, the number in a full team
If you do need a concrete number of TArrows users to satisfy me, then let's say 6 or more unbanned Pokemon, the number in a full team
I think that this argument that Jahkem made has been widely mis-characterized.
Sandslash has base 100 attack, Ground typing, Sand Rush as it's ability. It gets SD but EdgeQuake is the only way to touch Rotom and Skarmory and Celesteela, etc. If you give this mon the move, it's the exact same scenario over and over again. 458 speed, SD, a move that hits everything regardless of immunity. That isn't healthy.
Mega Kangaskhan - Are you arguing for a total Seismic Toss ban? No, I don't think you are. This doesn't compare.
Aegislash - I wouldn't be opposed to trying to this one as this is the only situation REMOTELY similar to this Zygarde one that Jahkem is proposing.
Blaziken - Are you arguing for a total Speed Boost ban? I don't think you are. You literally just set up another straw man.
Dawn Wings Necrozma - Except this mon would be something that is inherently broken as a mon by itself. Psychic Ghost, more speed than Hoopa, 110 defense, 130 special defense, 157 special attack, 113 physical attack, a way to boost it's special attack and a way to boost it's speed by 2. And then it has Z move potential with it's signature Moonraze Maelstorm. Posting the most absurd examples that don't actually follow Jahkem's argument in the hopes to mock him and show his argument as one that is stupid. I know you don't actually like talking about stuff and posting on Smogon but read a bit more next time lol.
EDIT: Oh and the fact that Chaitanya says there isn't a point to unbanning then immediately turns around and argues for Damp Rock unban because SS water is bad anyway is kind of ironic and funny to me. Zygarde is bad anyway, let it back in.
Your examples are poor and this is not a complex ban. It is banning the entire move, outright, for every Pokemon to have. Like we did with Baton Pass and such. Zygarde was never seen in ORAS Mono? Why? Because it was bad. Without Thousand Arrows, the mon was a perfectly manageable threat by the metagame, landing very low in considered viability. Xerneas isn't running Geomancy in Ubers right now, it's running scarf and it's still very very good. Xerneas will just always be very very good and you arguing that what he's saying for Zygarde is the same is stupid. Genesect is the same. Sorry Techno Blast isn't the most broken thing that Genesect has. Specs, Scarf, and Z are all amazing options that you bring in when you bring it in. Zygarde doesn't have these options and the mon without the move is still not inherently broken.
You hit everything right on the head until you got to literally the last sentence. "But chances are that Pokemon would be broken in of itself too." That's exactly the issue here: that the move, when put on a mon that is not Smeargle with some of the worst offensive stats in the game, is a broken move. Let's use a little experiment for this.
Sandslash has base 100 attack, Ground typing, Sand Rush as it's ability. It gets SD but EdgeQuake is the only way to touch Rotom and Skarmory and Celesteela, etc. If you give this mon the move, it's the exact same scenario over and over again. 458 speed, SD, a move that hits everything regardless of immunity. That isn't healthy.
This one is the one that annoyed me the most, though. This entire post is built on a strawman so you can just flatten a non-existent argument. Jahkem is arguing for the total banning of Thousand Arrows off a Pokemon that previously was not good in a metagame.In regards to Jahkem ’s post I’d like to propose my own set of unbannings:
Mega Kanghaskhan + Seismic Toss:
This combination is the only thing that makes mega kanghaskhan innately broken. Especially in monotype where a lot of types are more balanced, and mega kanghaskhan would two hit ko pretty much anything with a base hp stat of under 100. Mega lopunny is better in most ways so it would promote some diversity
Aegislash + King’s Shield:
This is the combination that got aegislash banned from mono. The uncompetitive 50/50’s that could cost you a pokemon are gone! Aegislash would still be useful as a lo mixed attacker or with band/specs it would hit incredibly hard while being easy to manage since it would adopt a more hit and run approach rather than force those dreaded 50/50’s that got it banned in the first place.
Blaziken + Speed Boost:
Speed boost + setup move on potentially swords dance with a z move or lo is what makes blaziken and it’s mega evolution broken. Remove speed boost from the mix?, and we have an inferior infernape with higher base stab in high jump kick. Also, the nostalgia factor since blaziken was the starter I chose in ruby and sapphire.
Dawn Wings Necrozma + ultranecroznium z:
The ability to form change and have a rediculous z move stab off of it makes this mon broken, though it’s typing isn’t as good as it’s brethren dusk mane necrozma. Removing the form change would make this pokemon much more manageable for teams, though we may end up with another hoops situation so maybe just ban z moves on it in general and maybe choice specs too. That is all!
Thoughts and opinions are appreciated as always. Hopefully everyone is on board with these as well.
(This is the can of worms we open if we ban thousand arrows + zygarde. Unban that and these unbans would also be justified :D)
Mega Kangaskhan - Are you arguing for a total Seismic Toss ban? No, I don't think you are. This doesn't compare.
Aegislash - I wouldn't be opposed to trying to this one as this is the only situation REMOTELY similar to this Zygarde one that Jahkem is proposing.
Blaziken - Are you arguing for a total Speed Boost ban? I don't think you are. You literally just set up another straw man.
Dawn Wings Necrozma - Except this mon would be something that is inherently broken as a mon by itself. Psychic Ghost, more speed than Hoopa, 110 defense, 130 special defense, 157 special attack, 113 physical attack, a way to boost it's special attack and a way to boost it's speed by 2. And then it has Z move potential with it's signature Moonraze Maelstorm. Posting the most absurd examples that don't actually follow Jahkem's argument in the hopes to mock him and show his argument as one that is stupid. I know you don't actually like talking about stuff and posting on Smogon but read a bit more next time lol.
EDIT: Oh and the fact that Chaitanya says there isn't a point to unbanning then immediately turns around and argues for Damp Rock unban because SS water is bad anyway is kind of ironic and funny to me. Zygarde is bad anyway, let it back in.
#FreeHoopaU
What is Hoopa-U gonna do in Psychic that it Psychic already does? The only thing I see Hoopa U breaking is the mirror match that doesn't run Hoopa U. Also, why is a mon making a matchup that a type already wins Handily, even more handily such a bad thing? (No I don't mean Zygarde, TArrows makes Flying a cakewalk, which Ground doesn't already do. Also I'm pretty sure there are other MU's ground shouldn't be winning that TArrows makes easy. But free zygarde tho, it isn't doing anything without TArrows whatsoever.)
What is Hoopa-U gonna do in Psychic that it Psychic already does? The only thing I see Hoopa U breaking is the mirror match that doesn't run Hoopa U. Also, why is a mon making a matchup that a type already wins Handily, even more handily such a bad thing? (No I don't mean Zygarde, TArrows makes Flying a cakewalk, which Ground doesn't already do. Also I'm pretty sure there are other MU's ground shouldn't be winning that TArrows makes easy. But free zygarde tho, it isn't doing anything without TArrows whatsoever.)