Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[robopoke]

When people write:
"Tornadus-T to B+: Agree"
Some people, especially new and inexperienced players who reap the most out of the Viabilty Rankings might not know if Tornadus-T is A- or B- right now so they are either forced to check the first page of this thread for its current ranking or read the text. A good headline makes the reader immediatly know if you are dealing with a rise or a drop. The reason for this happening lately is probably Finchinator whose discussionspoints are being copypasted. There was a time you did this:
Kyurem-Black from A to A-

but now you do this:
Tornadus-Therian to B+

I do not know what made you change the old style but I hope you come back to it and maybe even add a sprite to avoid random oversized pics from other sources people post because the easiest thing after copypaste is googling.

from B- to B.

Current B-:
Mamoswine, Mimikyu, Skarmory, Terrakion etc.
current B:
Garchomp, Bisharp, Suicune, Heracross etc.

Mega Heracross takes advantage of the insane usage of Kartana. Kartana getting Knock Off and it being a spammable move gives Heracross another free switch-in. Aerical Ace, an old move used to revengekill weakened Volcarona is now nonexistant and Smart Strike is also decreasing in usage with Defog and Knock Off being competitors.

Teams with Landorus-T still prefer Scarf or Defensive Sets and while Z-Fly is deadly, it is harder to fit on teams.
Gliscor is usually used for Defogging purposes and thus only has Toxic or Earthquake to damage Mega Heracross. SD into Rock Blast can kill and if it doesn't, what does Gliscor back to you? You can just Substitute on switch, force Roost and Pin Missile when it is free while Earthquake doesn't break Sub.

Toxapex is still Spdef these days to deal with Specs Gren and dies to +2 Adamant Rock Blast after Rocks pretty convincingly. SD is not necesarry actually because Scald does not break the Sub and spamming Rock Blast breaks Pex anyway because of its high 40 PP. Having Knock Off support is useful to threaten Pex more without SD and this is easily achieved with Knock Off Ferrothorn or Clefable who have those moves as staple on many teams Mega Heracross fits on.

Hawlucha is very common but forcing that mon in just to check Heracross is amazing. If it comes in without the correct Terrain your team should be able to deal with it. One thing I love is forcing in Lucha without Terrain and then going hard to my Koko, wasting its Seed and not having to worry about him later in the game.

Mega Pinsir usage is decreasing in ladder (not sure abt tours but I feel like it is low there as well from Dokkerich uploads) but Tornadus-T is very common. However it is not a reliable check unless it wants to use its Z-Move. Making aggressive players early game can force Tornadus-T to waste its Z-Move prematurely. Both, Mega Pinsir and Tornadus-T obv. cannot switch into Rock Blast.

Clefable is a solid mon lately to deal with Lucha and Zygardes but without Unaware (lower usage) it doesn't counter Heracross. Also, an offensive core consisting of Zygarde+Heracross can help overwhelm defensive answers such as Clefable or for a Hawlucha lategame sweep.

Mega Heracross is the definition of Bulky and Offensive so it should be B anyway just to show the respect it deserves for the best playstyle in USM OU (Dont take this one too seriously) ;)

Random Calcs with no context:
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 225-270 (80 - 96%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

When people write:
"Tornadus-T to B+: Agree"
Some people, especially new and inexperienced players who reap the most out of the Viabilty Rankings might not know if Tornadus-T is A- or B- right now so they are either forced to check the first page of this thread for its current ranking or read the text. A good headline makes the reader immediatly know if you are dealing with a rise or a drop. The reason for this happening lately is probably Finchinator whose discussionspoints are being copypasted. There was a time you did this:
Kyurem-Black from A to A-

but now you do this:
Tornadus-Therian to B+

I do not know what made you change the old style but I hope you come back to it and maybe even add a sprite to avoid random oversized pics from other sources people post because the easiest thing after copypaste is googling.

from B- to B.

Current B-:
Mamoswine, Mimikyu, Skarmory, Terrakion etc.
current B:
Garchomp, Bisharp, Suicune, Heracross etc.

Mega Heracross takes advantage of the insane usage of Kartana. Kartana getting Knock Off and it being a spammable move gives Heracross another free switch-in. Aerical Ace, an old move used to revengekill weakened Volcarona is now nonexistant and Smart Strike is also decreasing in usage with Defog and Knock Off being competitors.

Teams with Landorus-T still prefer Scarf or Defensive Sets and while Z-Fly is deadly, it is harder to fit on teams.
Gliscor is usually used for Defogging purposes and thus only has Toxic or Earthquake to damage Mega Heracross. SD into Rock Blast can kill and if it doesn't, what does Gliscor back to you? You can just Substitute on switch, force Roost and Pin Missile when it is free while Earthquake doesn't break Sub.

Toxapex is still Spdef these days to deal with Specs Gren and dies to +2 Adamant Rock Blast after Rocks pretty convincingly. SD is not necesarry actually because Scald does not break the Sub and spamming Rock Blast breaks Pex anyway because of its high 40 PP. Having Knock Off support is useful to threaten Pex more without SD and this is easily achieved with Knock Off Ferrothorn or Clefable who have those moves as staple on many teams Mega Heracross fits on.

Hawlucha is very common but forcing that mon in just to check Heracross is amazing. If it comes in without the correct Terrain your team should be able to deal with it. One thing I love is forcing in Lucha without Terrain and then going hard to my Koko, wasting its Seed and not having to worry about him later in the game.

Mega Pinsir usage is decreasing in ladder (not sure abt tours but I feel like it is low there as well from Dokkerich uploads) but Tornadus-T is very common. However it is not a reliable check unless it wants to use its Z-Move. Making aggressive players early game can force Tornadus-T to waste its Z-Move prematurely. Both, Mega Pinsir and Tornadus-T obv. cannot switch into Rock Blast.

Clefable is a solid mon lately to deal with Lucha and Zygardes but without Unaware (lower usage) it doesn't counter Heracross. Also, an offensive core consisting of Zygarde+Heracross can help overwhelm defensive answers such as Clefable or for a Hawlucha lategame sweep.

Mega Heracross is the definition of Bulky and Offensive so it should be B anyway just to show the respect it deserves for the best playstyle in USM OU (Dont take this one too seriously) ;)

Random Calcs with no context:
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 225-270 (80 - 96%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fixed my post to let the new ones now what placing Tornadous-T is at. Thank you!
I also agree with your nomination. Great Attack and good bulk makes this thing just too good with B. If it gets a swords dance, it is like Kartana except a little slower ( speed does matter ). I do not know if this thing will reach the likes of B+, but I say from B- to B.

 

[paoisd]

Hippowdown: C+ --> B-
Hippowdon has been getting a lot of usage lately on the latter and in spl. This is largely due to being able to check tapu koko amazingly well and it is very nice on stall which has been picking up usage and on balance which is already pretty used. Hippowdon is the definition of a blanket check and can run different moves and spreads based on what you need it to check. It also supplies nice role compression with rocks and toxic and whirlwind as well as the typing giving a team the necessary ground type. Hippowdon is better than most of the trash in C+ and definitely should be amongst things like stakataka and terrakion etc.

Magearna A+ --> S-
It is an absolute anomaly to me how magearna is not in S-. AV magearna is stupid bulky and can fit on every single playstyle and with wish support it never dies. It is a great check to some of the most potent threats in the meta like special tapu koko, ash gren etc. Not to mention that shift gear sets are still amazing and one of the best sweepers in the tier. The fact that the shift gear can run so many different z moves with the shift gear means that no one ever really knows what mon they can go into to check you makes this an even better sweeper. With the new tools it got in heal bell etc it means that with the amazing typing it can also support other roles on a team. All of this together makes it definitely S- worthy in my eyes.

Clefable A --> A- Disagree
Clef is still an amazing mon in the meta especially with things like mawile not being used too much (Even though I still think it's amazing) and hawlucha being absolutely ridiculous. Clef still does the same thing it did before basically and there's not too much to explain. Just don't drop it.

Zapdos A- --> A
Zapdos is one of the best mons right now and it really is super deserving of a rise. So many teams (even defensive ones) pretty much can't switch into this thing's defensive sets because of it's high special attack and amazing coverage. It fits so well on balance, stall, and bulky offense. On stall it is one of the best defoggers imaginable being able to defog and heal on so many things as well as threatening annoying things to stall such as ferrothorn and celesteela. On balance and bulky offense it basically does the same thing except hpice over defog and speed is a big thing in helping it check many things. The upped usage in hawlucha and pinsir is also really nice for it as this is one of the only checks to those.

Tornadus T B --> B+
I don't have anything about this one that hasn't been said already I'm just echoing the nom

Mega Heracross B- --> B Agree
I actually have been using this one a lot and I think it is underrated. The power alone of this is amazing not to mention it's ridiculous bulk and options like sub or sd or both. The speed, while slow, is actually in a pretty nice place where it can outspeed most defensive pivots/walls and still be bulky and super strong. Other than that, I agree with everything robopoke said about it and I think it is due for a rise.

 

[wisdom dog]

Nomming Jirachi, B- -> B.

The wishmaker has really begun to find its place in the meta as of late. Jirachi is becoming a very strong pick on stall, balance, and bulkier offense teams as an excellent role compression mon for being able to pass wishes, set rocks, and eat hits from tapu lele. Jirachi has also become an incredible mon on stall, turning the tables on what was once a near-unwinnable matchup.
For these reasons, i think Jirachi easily deserves a spot in B, alongside mons such as alomomola, mega diancie, and garchomp.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Scuba Diver]

Nomming Jirachi, B- -> B.

The wishmaker has really begun to find its place in the meta as of late. Jirachi is becoming a very strong pick on stall, balance, and bulkier offense teams as an excellent role compression mon for being able to pass wishes, set rocks, and eat hits from tapu lele. Jirachi has also become an incredible mon on stall, turning the tables on what was once a near-unwinnable matchup.
For these reasons, i think Jirachi easily deserves a spot in B, alongside mons such as alomomola, mega diancie, and garchomp.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

To add to the Jirachi nomination, I’d like to point out how little it cares about most Magnezone variants between wish and protect and uturn. It’s also one of the best Landorus-T/Scizor lures in the tier if you want to run icy wind/ HP Fire as a tech. I’m okay with it going to B but never higher in this meta, way too many high ranked things just blow it back or set up on it.

 

[Rashflygon]

Nomming Jirachi, B- -> B.

The wishmaker has really begun to find its place in the meta as of late. Jirachi is becoming a very strong pick on stall, balance, and bulkier offense teams as an excellent role compression mon for being able to pass wishes, set rocks, and eat hits from tapu lele. Jirachi has also become an incredible mon on stall, turning the tables on what was once a near-unwinnable matchup.
For these reasons, i think Jirachi easily deserves a spot in B, alongside mons such as alomomola, mega diancie, and garchomp.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

To further add to the jirachi nomination, the uprising on pokemon such as av and z move tapu bulu has really helped consolidate jirachi's place in the metagame, to further add to this jirachi is one of the few stallbreakers not very weak to toxapex and immune to being toxiced, hence allowing jirachi to help break the popular bulu-pex core.


60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 125-148 (31 - 36.7%) -- 32.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery (obviously it could also use n-madness but it isnt confirmed damage)


0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 248 HP / 108+ SpD Jirachi: 43-52 (10.6 - 12.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Furthermore it is able to take on pokemon such as tapu lele, mega alakazam, magearna (very niche sets such as z-ghostium are an exception), mew,kyurem(black) and clefable

 

[mushamu]

Hoopa-U A- > B+

Even though Dugtrio is gone from the metagame, Hoopa U still struggles from recent metagame trends. As a wallbreaker it is super weak to U-turn which is never good, as Tapu Koko has been rising and Lando-T is still the best mon in the meta, and both force Hoopa-U out with U turn. Hoopa U's pitiful defenses also makes it weak to common attacks as well as priority such as Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch and Bisharp's sucker punch, as well as mutliple physical attackers such as Kartana and Tapu Bulu, which have both been on the rise as of lately and have to again, switch out to avoid getting revenge killed by the abovementioned Pokemon. It doesn't check Hawlucha, it gets forced out by many opposing offensive Pokemon, and struggles to counter the correct Pokemon with the correct sets, as Scarf leaves you too weak to break Ferrothorn/Celesteela/Chansey and any other item will result in getting forced out by anything faster than it. Hoopa-U has never stood out to me as a consistent wallbreaker, and the rise of Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele and the overall dominance of Lando-T and Kartana in the tier has left Hoopa-U in a tough spot in the current metagame. Definitley not on par with A-'s famous balance breakers, Mega Medicham and Mawile that are much better at wallbreaking due to the former's Speed and the latter's defensive typing and Swords Dance. Hoopa-U's flaws combined with the rise of its checks and counters heavily question its A- rank and should definitley drop to B+.

 

[Felixx]

Hoopa-U A- > B+

Even though Dugtrio is gone from the metagame, Hoopa U still struggles from recent metagame trends. As a wallbreaker it is super weak to U-turn which is never good, as Tapu Koko has been rising and Lando-T is still the best mon in the meta, and both force Hoopa-U out with U turn. Hoopa U's pitiful defenses also makes it weak to common attacks as well as priority such as Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch and Bisharp's sucker punch, as well as mutliple physical attackers such as Kartana and Tapu Bulu, which have both been on the rise as of lately and have to again, switch out to avoid getting revenge killed by the abovementioned Pokemon. It doesn't check Hawlucha, it gets forced out by many opposing offensive Pokemon, and struggles to counter the correct Pokemon with the correct sets, as Scarf leaves you too weak to break Ferrothorn/Celesteela/Chansey and any other item will result in getting forced out by anything faster than it. Hoopa-U has never stood out to me as a consistent wallbreaker, and the rise of Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele and the overall dominance of Lando-T and Kartana in the tier has left Hoopa-U in a tough spot in the current metagame. Definitley not on par with A-'s famous balance breakers, Mega Medicham and Mawile that are much better at wallbreaking due to the former's Speed and the latter's defensive typing and Swords Dance. Hoopa-U's flaws combined with the rise of its checks and counters heavily question its A- rank and should definitley drop to B+.

I'd like to disagree with your nomination,

*Tapu Koko runs specs most of the time, and that set dosen't (commonly) run U-turn, and "252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO", also you forget to mention that Lando is slower than Hoopa-U if it's defensive and takes a lot from choice banded hyperspace hole, and scarf Lando which does outspeed, struggles to take the hit easily (also your basically hoping it isn't specs, "252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 288-340 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO")

*You mention Bisharp, which has never really been very common in OU besides NJNP webs meta

*Let me show you how well Bulu "checks" Hoopa-U

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 204-240 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 213-252 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

*You don't mention how T-tar viability took a big hit, which is huge since Hoopa-U can use Choice sets freely again. Zapdos rising in viability is also nice since Hoopa's special bulk allows it to take its attacks

*Hawlucha can't set up freely on a Hoopa-U unless it's locked into a dark move, which I'll agree is a problem since dark moves are the most spammable for Hoopa

Overall Hoopa-U struggles with some metagame trends like Kart and Lele, but as a balance breaker it is still consistant for me due to its sheer power and ability to force switches.

Keep Hoopa-U in A-

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

Hoopa-U A- > B+

Even though Dugtrio is gone from the metagame, Hoopa U still struggles from recent metagame trends. As a wallbreaker it is super weak to U-turn which is never good, as Tapu Koko has been rising and Lando-T is still the best mon in the meta, and both force Hoopa-U out with U turn. Hoopa U's pitiful defenses also makes it weak to common attacks as well as priority such as Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch and Bisharp's sucker punch, as well as mutliple physical attackers such as Kartana and Tapu Bulu, which have both been on the rise as of lately and have to again, switch out to avoid getting revenge killed by the abovementioned Pokemon. It doesn't check Hawlucha, it gets forced out by many opposing offensive Pokemon, and struggles to counter the correct Pokemon with the correct sets, as Scarf leaves you too weak to break Ferrothorn/Celesteela/Chansey and any other item will result in getting forced out by anything faster than it. Hoopa-U has never stood out to me as a consistent wallbreaker, and the rise of Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele and the overall dominance of Lando-T and Kartana in the tier has left Hoopa-U in a tough spot in the current metagame. Definitley not on par with A-'s famous balance breakers, Mega Medicham and Mawile that are much better at wallbreaking due to the former's Speed and the latter's defensive typing and Swords Dance. Hoopa-U's flaws combined with the rise of its checks and counters heavily question its A- rank and should definitley drop to B+.

A- to B+: Disagree
While it's defenses are a problem ( U-Turn is basically a large counter for it, as well as priority moves ), and popular hard-hitting pokemon are taking over the meta-game, it is still worthy in A-. It is probably one of the best sweepers if used in an OU Trick Room team. That high attack stat of 160 + 170 special attack stat offers a ton of mixed options: like a special attacker or attacker, and even a mixed one. While this thing will not switching in into Toxapex to get burned by Scald if it is an physical set, this thing is a solid Toxapex check. It forces it to swap into another Pokemon, potentially dealing a lot of damage to it. While I wish I had replays on how good this thing was for anyone curious of evidence, I do not sadly. I just do not see this thing being in the same tier where less potential Pokemon are ( Blacephon, Latios, Latios-Mega, Rotom-Wash, etc. ). Choice Band is even a solid way to check Chansey with Psyshock rather than Psychic.

I would say a Modest Choice Specs set in Trick Room is probably really hard to deal with ( unless you got priority ).

Choice Specs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
( If you were running a Timid one, Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock + One Spike set ).

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 342-404 (97.1 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
( If you were running a Timid one: 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ).

Choice Band:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 316-372 (80.8 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
( If you were running a Jolly one: 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock )

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 226-266 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Non - Choice Band / Choice Specs set:

252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 356-420 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 282-332 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
( If running a tankier MV set: 252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 246-290 (67.7 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock )

 

[power]

I'm really confused why people are talking about whether Band / Specs are worthy of being moved to B+ or not.

On the Sets VR, a project reasonably closely tied to this, Band and Specs already have been B+ for weeks. Hoopa-U is still ranked in A- for its NP Z-Move set, which has been reflected on both Sets VR and the official analysis for several weeks.

I know sometimes the Sets VR is outdated, but in this regard it most certainly is not.

There's no point in debating whether Band / Specs should be B+; they already are. If you're proposing a Hoopa-U drop, you should probably talk about NP Z-Move (assuming you're familiar with the set and have used it extensively).

 

[cityscapes]

lemme nom this guy to somewhere in the c ranks

i'm aware that this mon has been brought up and rejected before, but the people who nommed it did so based on its performance on balance teams. let's talk about buzzwole's valuable niche on hard stall

first off, the set:
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- 3 attacks of your choice (i used sub/toxic/focus punch but other options like leech life, ice punch, eq are also fine depending on the team)

buzzwole's niche is its ability to handle all sorts of mons we'd normally label "stallbreakers". here are some examples:

bad calcs

+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 209-246 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 243-286 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 153-181 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (you have a pretty good shot at living both thanks to leftovers)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 157-186 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 164-194 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

it might seem like buzzwole doesn't take those z moves very well, but you might notice that none of them do over 75. if you click sub on the z move, you can just roost the next turn and see what they do without needing to predict.

buzzwole's two main problems are special attackers and toxic spikes/other hazards, which happen to be two things with which stall has absolutely no trouble. thanks to chansey countering most special attackers and sableye bouncing back hazards (not to mention poison types like pex absorbing tspikes upon switching in), buzzwole is almost always able to do its job on stall teams without any kind of specialized building.

also flyinium z lando and aerial ace kartana aren't even sets anymore so the most buzzwole has to fear from them is a stray knock off

you might bring up all the physical attackers that do threaten buzzwole, like zard x, mega alt, and hawlucha, as arguments for it to stay unranked. however, finding partners that can handle these mons is pretty easy. physically defensive quagsire, the partner i used, covered pretty much every physical attacker that beat buzzwole (except mega mawile but everyone sacks that mon)

here are some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-696822968 buzzwole poisons the zard y to wear it down. at the end (turn 110) it punches everybody and wins
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-696902418 buzzwole prevents bulu from accomplishing anything in the game. note that it doesn't give up momentum in the process unlike say skarm
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-696904306 buzzwole takes 44 from lo mimikyu and toxics it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-696906998 buzzwole takes 62 from cb crawdaunt in rain and sets up a sub to win

thanks

 

[Charmflash]

To be honest I believe it is time that Buzzwole gets ranked as at least a C- pokemon.

It has recently gotten a very consistant, although not very powerful fighting stab in drain punch. Moreover, current metagame trends are quite friendly to Buzzwole such as Kartana being hugely popular and not running Steelium Z ever tbh and Landorus-Therian forfeiting his Z-Crystal for more defensive or scarfed builds making Buzzwole a better ground-resist all around.

Buzzwole has a variety of semi-good sets it can use in the OU tier. Personally I'd say there are 3 notable sets right now.

1. Clever use as a physical wall on stall to answer threats such as CB Ttar / Kartana / Bulu (non AV bulu LUL). Silver_Lucario42 mentioned this set in his post above.
2. Substitute 3 attacks to annoy balanced builds with pokemon such as Toxapex, Landorus-Therian/Gliscor and Ferrothorn.
3. Assault Vest to cover its specially weak side and check a wide variety of pokemon such as Ash-Greninja / Mega-Alakazam loosely and recover your health back via the newly aquired Drain Punch and/or Leech Life.

Here's a video of Joey using a team I had passed him featuring set nr. 3 around 1800.

Overall I believe Buzzwole deserves a spot in C- as, to partially quote the reason a certain other pokemon is currently ranked, it isnt the worst you could do defensively when building a team :]

 

[Counting Sheep]

Oh damn, looks like I wasnt fast enough getting replays for nomming Buzzwole. I was gonna nom Buzzwole for the same meta trends benefiting as mentioned above, being an offensive check to Zygarde, Kartana and most LandoT atm, but also with M.Venu and Mew usage down, it has an easier time wallbreaking. I've been using a different set than the other noms so far.

Buzzwole @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake / Poison Jab
- Roost

I've been having a lot of success with this set. A slight upgrade from its previous 3 Attacks Roost set, with main changes being Jolly > Adamant and Lorb > Lefties. This Buzzwole plays really well on BO, as its a nice physical check to Zygarde, LandoT, M.Lopunny, Kartana, Bulu, Tyranitar and a few other unmons, while being hard to wear down due to Roost, and the opportunities it gets to Roost due to the switches it forces. It hits increadbly hard as well, with a high power move in Superpower + high base Atk stat, nothing likes to take a neutral hit, and with recent meta trends, its coverage is a lot more refined. Buzzwole being able to revenge Heatran is also another positive, as that mons super solid rn.

Buzzwole doesnt come without its faults however... it has quite a bit. It has so chose between Earthquake and Poison Jab, being walled by Pex or Clef. Also its susceptible to all forms of hazards, and combined with Lorb damage, can be worn down quickly if the correct pressure is applied. Its very low base SpDef also means its forced out by a lot of SpAtkers.

But with the other sets mentioned, I think Buzzwole is defiantly viable due to the current meta trends, and deserves at least C-

Replays coming later...

 

[paoisd]

I definitely support buzzwole to around C or C+ not because of one set, but because there is so many different sets that it can use. It can use any of the sets listed before, or a 3 attacks bulky roost, a roost toxic set, or it can even do stuff like groundium z to blow pex's out of the water who think they have a free switch in. As mentioned before, the defensive utility is super duper nice and I think having a defensive prowess like that while still hitting super hard with multiple ways of reliable recovery (roost, leech life, drain punch, leftovers) should definitely have this ranked

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Sub Thunderpunch/Earthquake Buzzwole:
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 196 HP / 12 SpD Buzzwole: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

184+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 136-160 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
or, depending on how you build your team
184+ Atk Buzzwole Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (worst case)
+1 184+ Atk Buzzwole Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 150-178 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 184+ Atk Buzzwole Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 226-266 (74.3 - 87.5%)

This is useful because under the right circumstance it is possible for Buzzwole to take on Toxapex too, considering what everyone else has already said about it.

Just a another (useful) set it can run in OU. C-Ranks I agree upon

 

[Ohmboy Tesla]

I honestly thought Buzzwole was an unmon for most of SuMo and USUM, and I still don't know about sets like AV or 3 Atks + Roost since I believe other mons do that stuff better (Bulu, Zard-X, Zap, ... with better coverage and/or more staying power), but this new Stall set is kinda interesting.

I built my own team with M-Sab, Chansey, Buzzwole, Zapdos, Pex and Jirachi and I have to say I'm actually kinda surprised by how nice Buzzwole performs on it. Checking Bulu, Kartana and offensive Lando is really usefull and unlike Skarm, who usually fulfills this role, it can hold leftovers because it doesn't get trapped and can actually force these mons out since Skarm can only use Whirlwind/Counter here and potentially still dies to a Z-move if Sturdy is broken, while Ice Punch/Focus Punch/Toxic + a potential free Sub will make your opp think twice.

This team got me to around 1750 on the ladder pretty fast (started at about 1400 with an old alt) and I don't think I've even seen all the perks Buzzwole provides for the team yet.

Not sure about rank. C- is probably a good start as I still don't think other sets are really worth it and its niche is pretty specific on a playstyle that has seen better days, but I do believe it deserves a place on the VR.

 

[robofiend]

As long as we're talking Buzzwole:

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 196 HP / 180 Atk / 12 SpDef / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake / Poison Jab
- Substitute

I've had a lot of fun with this set, you switch in on Lando-T, Kartana, Bulu, or Zygarde, sub up, and chip/nuke something your opponent has. Unlike other Sub users, it blocks U-Turn from everything, allowing it a nearly guaranteed chance to do some damage when Lando-T runs away. It has three really good checks in Clefable, Toxapex, and M-Scizor (though two of them need to scout for super effective hits) but outside of them it's pretty much free to run over walls. Chansey's ST won't break Zwole's subs with the given EV's, nor will Toxapex's Scald. The speed EVs are for beating Defensive Landorus-T - take em or leave em - just make sure to scout for the Z-Fly/Explosion sets.

All in all, it's a really fun set, similar to Volcanion in its bulk against some common threats and its awesome firepower when it comes to wiping out something almost every time it comes into play.

Like paoisd said, this thing is probably at least C+ because of its ability to run different sets based on team needs. It can run Toxic Stall, Sub Punch and offers awesome role compression as a wallbreaker that effectively checks big offensive threats.

replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-697653624
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-697655614
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-697714413 (not sure why this guy quit, he still kinda had a chance)
(I could do more but that's probably good since it's already been nommed)

 

[Colonel M]

I've gotten approval from Finchinator on this post, so I am speaking (in this post only) on behalf of him:

The VR Council will take serious consideration of Buzzwole in the next slate. In the meantime, you are more than free to continue with additional nominations, rises, or drops that you feel are reflective of the current USUM metagame.

I may post later for my sake, but for now this is just to get more discussion going than Buzzwole.

 

[Altervisi]

Clefable -> A- Disagree

Honestly I was surprised this was being considered to drop, I think A is pretty representative for Clef right now. It has so many tools under it's belt to deal with a myriad of common trending threats. Being able to check Hawlucha even on it's Magic Guard sets is a great reason to use this. Clefable can also Wish Pass, absorb status, set Rocks and Paralyse opponents on balanaced teams which is great for disrupting opposing balance and HO alike. Clefable also has the utility to bring offensive pressure with Calm Mind + Moonblast and great coverage in Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast and Flamethrower/Fire Blast, hitting a number of threats 4x effectively, making Clefable quite malleable in dealing with threats to teams, with Flame/Blast also allowing Clef to act as a Steel lure. Being immune to all residual damage is incredible, especially in dealing with stall, but having a mon that can work through hazard relieves a lot of the pressure that is often forced with hazards, when a lot of people are forced into playing to keep their removal methods alive and not swapping in effective mons until hazards are gone, Clefable can slightly relieve that headache.

This is without mentioning its fantastic second ability in Unaware which can be the difference between victory and losing 6-0 with a lot of setup sweepers running wild, particularly Pinsir, Kartana and of course Hawlucha. Calm Mind as well Bold Clefable has great all round bulk, while also boosting attack, winning set up wars against things like Mega Lati@s, Reuniclus, MG Clefable, Volcarona (Quiver). Unaware has also made Clefable a long term staple on stall teams (especially with Quagsire not liking Grass type usage like Bulu and Kartana), which although not being half as prevelant as before, still demonstrates the flexibility this thing has.

TL;DR - Incredible flexibility in its moveset and two fantastic abilities, as well as being very useful against some current meta trends.

 

[Meliodafu7]

Hippo isn't the current slate, but, I saw a nom few pages back, so I'll bring to the table right now.

From C+ to B- : Totally Agree

Everyone here knows what this mon does, so I won't explain that. I'll focus in how metagame trends aids Hippo's rise and another shit which hinder it back. A huge shit about Hippo is the fact of Being able to counter almost ANY Tapu Koko Variant (except for a unset with Grass Knot) is massive right now, since any shit Koko throws to it is a 3HKO using the calcs from Choice Specs, the only shit that Koko have and which have a 6.3% to OHKO Hippo's Dex spread is +1 Twin Tackle, and that set isn't that great, because of Specs is brainless, making Hippo a reliable counter for this mon, using it as a Stealth Rock fodder. Also, it counter one of the most common Koko partner in Hawlucha, switching in as it SD or Sub, being able to eat a +2 HJK, which is a 2HKO at +2, and Whirlwind the speed and def boost, rendering it almost useless. Also, it can check Heatran pretty well if not Z-move variant, while also it can 1v1 Toxapex since EQ 2HKO it (if the Scald doesn't burn).
However, this mon is massive Kartana and Tapu Bulu bait, both of them being everywhere in the ladder, which can be troublesome sometimes and hinders it back a few.
I think B- is right for this mon, which offers a lot of role compression for balance and stall builds alike, while being the definition of blanket check to many common threats right now. While niche, I think is better than almost any shit in C+.

to B+: Agree
Z-Hurricane + Defog is fire right now, providing a lot of utility with U-turn + Regen, while it checks common shit like def LandoT and many hazard setters. Good speed tier and other utility options like Knock Off, Heat Wave and even Taunt make it a great choice for balance and Bulky Offense team. This mon is in a really good spot right now and deserves the rise.

I'm unsure about Clef, but I think it still is great in the metagame, checking a lot of mons like Zyg, M-Medi, Hawlucha and others, while it can serve as a wincon with CM or rock setter, or run more unconventional shit like LO or a Z-move to lure in checks and counters.

 

[Jordy]

Haven't posted here in a bit n_n

-> A-
Celesteela really isn't that good anymore, personally, I see it as the worst Pokemon in A. It's seeing a lot more competition as a Steel-type and is overly reliant on Leftovers + Leech Seed for recovery, though Ferrothorn faces this problem too, but too a lesser extent due to its solid dual typing. The fact that Tapu Bulu is running Nature's madness a lot more now is very annoying because Celesteela isn't a very good switch in because getting stripped of 50% health brings Celesteela a lot lower and means that it has to spam Leech Seed a lot more to stay healthy, which can be taken advantage of. The surge of Pokemon like Fightinium Z Hoopa-U and Zapdos are also kind of bad for Celesteela because they are easily capable of breaking through Celesteela.

regarding buzzwole

-> C-
When this first got nommed I started trying it out and I think that SubPunch Buzzwole is p cool and it definitely deserves to get ranked, though, not too high. I think it should be C- and maybe consider rising it to C next month, I don't really see this on the level of other C+ Pokemon so idk about rising it to C+. These were just my 2 cents on Buzzwole but I do not want to create another discussion about this.

Hide

 

[Empo]

from b to b-

not many people use this pokemon nowadays outside of webs orientated teams (since its speed is very bad and most of the common threats like gren koko lele just take advantage of it) and it's not great at the moment in the tier as t's pretty frail overall and can't switch safely to barely anything. as many of you know, sucker punch, which is a fundamental move for bisharp, is blocked in many circumstances due to the presence of psychic terrain from lele. in addition, the presence of ash ninja, kartana, heatran etc doesn't help too as they all can get kills against bish.

from b- to b (at least)

i like this pokemon type synergy a lot, i also like how it hits hard everything in the tier and how it can dismantle teams. with pokemon such as koko, magearna or lando for instance, mamoswine has room to actually put in work in the current metagame. its access to stealth rock too lets him easily gain a good position vs defoggers like zap or gliscor. it can also fullfil the role of breaker pretty well due to zmove / metronome and an access to a pretty good type synergy as i said before.

from b+ to b

the presence of tyranitar, pex, or even gliscor in the current metagame kills the blacephalon hype, even if this pokemon can be a quite good tool against offensive teams. indeed thats why b rank should fit its position imo. its movepool isnt too wise too; apart from stabs it can learn trick, which can be kinda annoying vs pex, but it has nothing that can actually put in trouble stuff like ttar.

 

[giovanidude]

From C--->C+ or B-

Wow. How is this mon so low on the VR. Having Thundy-T in C rank along side mons like Alakazam, Garchomp, Muk, etc. criminally underrates it. TBH this mon is fire right now! It's super strong against allot of what we're seeing. This mon eats up Tapu koko, Lando-T, Tapu Bulu (with proper coverage), Zapdos, Toxapex, Kartana, Hawlucha. The list just goes on and on. This is by virtue of it's great typing. Zapdos has the same typing and it's surging right now.

Double dance and specs are cool but here's the set I've been using

Thundurus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 248 SpA / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch (you can run Sludge Wave instead of Volt if Bulu is a problem)
- Knock Off

You may say Zapdos can be a better defensive check to everything you listed. And to that, I have to agree with you. However, where I think Thundy-T distinguishes itself from Zapdos is by its POWER and it's ability to serve as an offensive Tapu Koko check. I've found that you can just slap this mon onto offensive/balance squads and it patches up allot of the problems that certain mons give those teams. Mons like Tapu koko, hawlucha, and Kartana are a nightmare for allot of teams that don't just have Fat. Thundy-T is able to serve as a solid check to all of those and relieve pressure from its teamates. This is all while applying great offensive pressure.

Having Volt Absorb and Knock Off is HUGE for an offensive electric check. You're able to come in on koko and knock off the ground types switching in (if they're not quad weak to hp ice). It's basically a not as bulky but damn strong zapdos that puts on offensive pressure and checks koko.

Also, one important thing to note is that Thundy-t is a koko switch in that doesn't let hawlucha set up for free (looking at you ferrothorn and bulky lando).

Here are some calcs for ya

Calcs

Offensive
248 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 332-392 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

248 SpA Thundurus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 296-352 (86.2 - 102.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

248 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 174-205 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Defensive

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Thundurus-Therian: 126-148 (42.1 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 246-290 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Granted, in order to do it's job to the best of it's ability you need rocks off your side of the field but with all the new hazard removal and the surging Torn-T it's not too hard to fit onto a squad.

I only have one replay for you guys. I decided to post my thoughts on this mon and this is the only replay that was saved.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-698215801

 

[Deleted User 400951]

well time for Aldertz to hate on Bisharp again

yes Sharp should go down. Every time someone tries to defend it, it's all theorymon. Most mons will have at least some results if this is true - especially of a mon so relatively highly ranked. In practice, it's too frail to really punish defog and most importantly - it truly fails to fit on teams outside of SW, which, while not as bad as it was at the end of SM, is still largely not too viable. Other B ranked mons like Gengar (which should drop a bit imo if blace is) and Garchomp have actually been used in tours like SPL. Bisharp? None. One of the main arguments back when I first called for this was that it's under explored and needed time for people to figure out what to use. It's been months and Sharp has shown no signs of improving. B- or even C+ is warranted in this case.

I support Lycan-D to UR fully. This should have never been ranked. It was merely the result of a really heated, polarized debate with a lot of insults being thrown about and no one looked at whether it was truly good. It's not. The reasoning given was comparing it to Terrakion, a mon that is largely unviable and will be touched on later. Not only that, but Terrakion's SD set of all things, which has been largely unviable long before USUM came out. It's an 100% worse alternative to an already bad mon's unviable set with the minimal niche of Accelerock that in turn is worse in almost every other way. That's not worthy of a rank. Jordy already covered everything else.

Terrakion is not B- worthy at all and should drop hard. I'm seeing zero reason to use this right now. The only niche it has is Scarf, and it's not that great of one either. Scarf Kartana is way better - with Knock Off, it now has a really spammable move to use and it thus almost 100% outclasses terrakion as a scarf mon. It simply revenge kills more and its stabs are not as exploitable - Stone Edge isn't reliable enough and CC can be switched into by the numerous fighting resists we have like defensive lando t - which is now the best set, which really hurts Terrakion, especially considering how Lando has a 79% usage rate in SPL and a 50% usage rate in the ladder. Terrakion notably has not been brought to SPL at all, while other mons in B- like Tapu Fini have been at least used. C+ is way too generous for this thing - it should drop like a rock to C or even C-. This mon is just bad.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

from b to b-

not many people use this pokemon nowadays outside of webs orientated teams (since its speed is very bad and most of the common threats like gren koko lele just take advantage of it) and it's not great at the moment in the tier as t's pretty frail overall and can't switch safely to barely anything. as many of you know, sucker punch, which is a fundamental move for bisharp, is blocked in many circumstances due to the presence of psychic terrain from lele. in addition, the presence of ash ninja, kartana, heatran etc doesn't help too as they all can get kills against bish.

from b- to b (at least)

i like this pokemon type synergy a lot, i also like how it hits hard everything in the tier and how it can dismantle teams. with pokemon such as koko, magearna or lando for instance, mamoswine has room to actually put in work in the current metagame. its access to stealth rock too lets him easily gain a good position vs defoggers like zap or gliscor. it can also fullfil the role of breaker pretty well due to zmove / metronome and an access to a pretty good type synergy as i said before.

from b+ to b

the presence of tyranitar, pex, or even gliscor in the current metagame kills the blacephalon hype, even if this pokemon can be a quite good tool against offensive teams. indeed thats why b rank should fit its position imo. its movepool isnt too wise too; apart from stabs it can learn trick, which can be kinda annoying vs pex, but it has nothing that can actually put in trouble stuff like ttar.

Bisharp down to B-: Agree
Despite many more defoggers being introduced, Bisharp struugles a lot in the metagame and is only really used on niche playstyles like webs. It struggles with big threats like Lando-T, Sacred Sword Kartana, Gliscor, Mega Medicham, and Toxapex. Also, Sucker Punch can be nice, but opponents can often set up on Bisharp and make a Bisharp user question if it should even use sucker punch, resulting in a momentum sap and the other pokemon with set up possibly getting through it, and sweeping their team.

Mamoswine up to B: Absolutely Agree
This mon is really, really anti meta right now, and it's not hard to see to why. Mamoswine naills top threats like Tapu Koko, Magearna, Hawlucha, Tyranitar, Toxapex, Gliscor, Heatran, Zygarde, and most importantly, Lando-T. It's Ground type and STAB earthquake and a cool ability in thick fat helps it seperate itself from Weavile well, and not being weak to all of the Tapu's fairy type is great. Ice Shard is an excellent form of priority right now, letting it revenge a ton on switch in, which is so great. New sets besides LO are very potent as well, such as scarf, sash lead, band, and even icium-z. It also destroys the Tapu Koko Lucha core too, beating both with its respective stabs. Very effective and extremely slept on mon rn, tbh i could see it going as high as B+.

Blacephalon down to B: No opinion