Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

from B to B-
With all of the nerfs from Sun and Moon ( destiny bond spamming removed and status-in-general nerfs like Burn ) hurts this thing slightly. This thing has been used a lot less in OU, and fast pokemon - strong tank pokemon - and priority users basically kill this thing to make it useless. Cursed Body does not help this thing one bit. Choice Scarf can be used but it does not run that well with Gengar. With the rising popularity of Heatran, yes.

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 278-328 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I feel a little uncertain about this nomination, but at the same time I do.
Feel free to judge me, I am not as experienced as some of you are.

from b to b-

not many people use this pokemon nowadays outside of webs orientated teams (since its speed is very bad and most of the common threats like gren koko lele just take advantage of it) and it's not great at the moment in the tier as t's pretty frail overall and can't switch safely to barely anything. as many of you know, sucker punch, which is a fundamental move for bisharp, is blocked in many circumstances due to the presence of psychic terrain from lele. in addition, the presence of ash ninja, kartana, heatran etc doesn't help too as they all can get kills against bish.

from b- to b (at least)

i like this pokemon type synergy a lot, i also like how it hits hard everything in the tier and how it can dismantle teams. with pokemon such as koko, magearna or lando for instance, mamoswine has room to actually put in work in the current metagame. its access to stealth rock too lets him easily gain a good position vs defoggers like zap or gliscor. it can also fullfil the role of breaker pretty well due to zmove / metronome and an access to a pretty good type synergy as i said before.

from b+ to b

the presence of tyranitar, pex, or even gliscor in the current metagame kills the blacephalon hype, even if this pokemon can be a quite good tool against offensive teams. indeed thats why b rank should fit its position imo. its movepool isnt too wise too; apart from stabs it can learn trick, which can be kinda annoying vs pex, but it has nothing that can actually put in trouble stuff like ttar.

I agree with all of these nominations, nice! ( sorry if this was too broad ).

 

[Soul silver fan]

Marowak: C+ to b-

Plz don't hate on me for this

Hear me out. The reason I nommed this mon here is its synergy with uxie and its SD set. Basically, after uxie sets up a memento and TR, Marowak easily gains an SD boost by forcing out anything that's in the way because they're weakened by memento. At +2 this things kill pretty much the entire wall meta atm. Here are the calcs.

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 390-459 (113.7 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 418-493 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 370-436 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery ( guaranteed if w/ rocks )

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 8+ Def Toxapex: 432-512 (142.1 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 8+ Def Toxapex: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO ( guaranteed if w/ rocks )

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 343-405 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( it would be 12.5% to OHKO without rocks )

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 390-459 (111.1 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 373-439 (104.1 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 822-967 (116.9 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 372-438 (115.1 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 501-591 (130.8 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 355-418 (92.6 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 387-456 (119.8 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 250-295 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 340-402 (93.6 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 280-330 (69.4 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 433-510 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 348-409 (134.3 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In short, very spammable STAB move in Shadow Bone, paired with an extremely hard hitting second STAB in flare blitz that kills anything standing in the way of shadow bone, along with bonemerang to round off the coverage, this thing easily punches through relevent walls in the metagame, opening up holes that magearna, staka and other teammates can exploit on TR teams. Even without SD, it 2HKOes everything in the metagame, still making valuable holes in the opposing team. Of course, it still struggles with ash gren, reliance on TR, killing momentum after TR is down, and sucker punch, and shouldn't rise any higher than b-. I'm just observing how many meta walls crumple in the face of alolawak. It's sorta an antimeta pokemon.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

from b+ to b

the presence of tyranitar, pex, or even gliscor in the current metagame kills the blacephalon hype, even if this pokemon can be a quite good tool against offensive teams. indeed thats why b rank should fit its position imo. its movepool isnt too wise too; apart from stabs it can learn trick, which can be kinda annoying vs pex, but it has nothing that can actually put in trouble stuff like ttar.

I personally disagree with a Blacephalon drop. I did agree with the last drop, but I think that Blacephalon is a bit overhated in the current meta. Its scarf set is really bad atm, but the specs set is definitely b+ worthy. People don't realize how threatening it is for ttar less teams. With Spikes support, it can 2hko Toxapex with Shadow Ball and pretty much every other Pokemon with Shadow Ball and Fire Blast. Ttar has been falling a bit in usage and effectiveness, so that goes to Blacephalons favor too. Mantine and Gastrodon are also falling out of favor. Blacepahlon is definitely at the level of the other B+ mons and definitely a step ahead from all of B except for Tornadus Therian, (Which should rise,) and maybe Mega Diancie. Its Shallow Movepool as well as Ttar have both been taken into consideration when ranking it,

Haven't posted here in a bit n_n

-> A-
Celesteela really isn't that good anymore, personally, I see it as the worst Pokemon in A. It's seeing a lot more competition as a Steel-type and is overly reliant on Leftovers + Leech Seed for recovery, though Ferrothorn faces this problem too, but too a lesser extent due to its solid dual typing. The fact that Tapu Bulu is running Nature's madness a lot more now is very annoying because Celesteela isn't a very good switch in because getting stripped of 50% health brings Celesteela a lot lower and means that it has to spam Leech Seed a lot more to stay healthy, which can be taken advantage of. The surge of Pokemon like Fightinium Z Hoopa-U and Zapdos are also kind of bad for Celesteela because they are easily capable of breaking through Celesteela.

I also disagree with a Celesteela drop. Sure, it does face competition from other bulky steel types, but this is accurately represented by Heatran being S-, Magearna and Ferrothorn being A+, and Celesteela being A. Celesteela relying on Leech Seed isn't exactly a bad thing either, in fact, this is what makes Celesteela so annoying to switch into and wear down. It provides more than enough recovery to stay healthy throughout the battle. Heatran and the other bulky steels also arent good switchins to Tapu Bulu, so I'm not exactly how this is a point against Celesteela either. I also feel that you are looking at the meta a bit one-dimensionally. While Fightinium Z Hoopa and Zapdos are on the rise, Kartana is a top-tier threat and Celesteela walls it unless if it is a Fightinium Z variant, so that goes to Celesteelas favor. Torandus Therian also has trouble brekaing Celesteela, and Torandus Therian is on the rise. Blacephalon is also pretty uncommon atm, and CM Waterium Z Keldeo is also really bad atm. I also see Celesteela as far beoyond the level of the mons in A- except for maybe the recently dropped Mawile Mega.

 

[Gary]

Marowak: C+ to b-

Plz don't hate on me for this

Hear me out. The reason I nommed this mon here is its synergy with uxie and its SD set. Basically, after uxie sets up a memento and TR, Marowak easily gains an SD boost by forcing out anything that's in the way because they're weakened by memento. At +2 this things kill pretty much the entire wall meta atm. Here are the calcs.

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 390-459 (113.7 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 418-493 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 370-436 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery ( guaranteed if w/ rocks )

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 8+ Def Toxapex: 432-512 (142.1 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 8+ Def Toxapex: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO ( guaranteed if w/ rocks )

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 343-405 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( it would be 12.5% to OHKO without rocks )

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 390-459 (111.1 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 373-439 (104.1 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 822-967 (116.9 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 372-438 (115.1 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 501-591 (130.8 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 355-418 (92.6 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 387-456 (119.8 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 250-295 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 340-402 (93.6 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 280-330 (69.4 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 433-510 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 348-409 (134.3 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In short, very spammable STAB move in Shadow Bone, paired with an extremely hard hitting second STAB in flare blitz that kills anything standing in the way of shadow bone, along with bonemerang to round off the coverage, this thing easily punches through relevent walls in the metagame, opening up holes that magearna, staka and other teammates can exploit on TR teams. Even without SD, it 2HKOes everything in the metagame, still making valuable holes in the opposing team. Of course, it still struggles with ash gren, reliance on TR, killing momentum after TR is down, and sucker punch, and shouldn't rise any higher than b-. I'm just observing how many meta walls crumple in the face of alolawak. It's sorta an antimeta pokemon.

• When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.

You're technically breaking a rule that's listed in the OP. Your nomination just states everything we already know about Alolan Marowak. Hell the only reason Wak is even ranked anymore is for its niche on TR, so we already know it has good synergy with Uxie, another TR staple that is also ranked for TR. If you want to nom Marowak up, you need to provide evidence as to why Marowak and more importantly Trick Room, has gotten good enough recently to cause Wak to increase in viability. As far as I'm aware just by watching SPL, I'm almost 100% certain that Trick Room hasn't been used once in the past 4 weeks, and it's already midseason. Yea sure you can say tour usage isn't everything, but Trick Room was far more popular a few months ago than it was now; it's practically a dead playstyle that only really sees usage on low-mid ladder for easy points until high ladder. Stuff like Heatran, Pex, Ash Gren, CB T-tar, and Hoopa are all pretty popular right now and kinda take a dump on Trick Room overall. Like yeah it's still "viable" but the fact that it's not seeing any high level play speaks volume. It's an unreliable, inconsistent, overall mediocre playstyle, which is why Wak is ranked in C+. In all honesty, all TR mons could probably just shift down one. It's just not good. Obviously a Pokemon with essentially base 80 Attack Huge Power is going to kill everything at +2. The calcs prove nothing. The issue is, good luck finding opportunities for it to set up in this meta as well as having success with Trick Room in general.

 

[Colonel M]

I didn't even see that post honestly until Gary quoted it...

from B to B-
With all of the nerfs from Sun and Moon ( destiny bond spamming removed and status-in-general nerfs like Burn ) hurts this thing slightly. This thing has been used a lot less in OU, and fast pokemon - strong tank pokemon - and priority users basically kill this thing to make it useless. Cursed Body does not help this thing one bit. Choice Scarf can be used but it does not run that well with Gengar. With the rising popularity of Heatran, yes.

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 278-328 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I feel a little uncertain about this nomination, but at the same time I do.
Feel free to judge me, I am not as experienced as some of you are.

At the moment disagree on a Gengar drop. It definitely suffers, but Tyranitar dropping in usage helps it a little bit. Gengar can still harass some of the slower teams and sets like Z-Hex are viable since Gengar can pass burn status and force switches. It's certainly not a pinnacle Pokemon, but I feel that it is a bit easier to justify using than some of the B- Pokemon at the moment. Being around regular Gyarados feels about right since Gengar and Gyarados can be an annoyance to some teams but deadweight against others. Cursed Body can still shut out a Specs or Scarf lock sometimes too. I will agree that it isn't in the greatest of spots at the moment, and would not really fight too hard on it dropping further. I just dont think that it is worth being two tiers lower than Blacephelon, who I argue has worse problems than Gengar.

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

I didn't even see that post honestly until Gary quoted it...

At the moment disagree on a Gengar drop. It definitely suffers, but Tyranitar dropping in usage helps it a little bit. Gengar can still harass some of the slower teams and sets like Z-Hex are viable since Gengar can pass burn status and force switches. It's certainly not a pinnacle Pokemon, but I feel that it is a bit easier to justify using than some of the B- Pokemon at the moment. Being around regular Gyarados feels about right since Gengar and Gyarados can be an annoyance to some teams but deadweight against others. Cursed Body can still shut out a Specs or Scarf lock sometimes too. I will agree that it isn't in the greatest of spots at the moment, and would not really fight too hard on it dropping further. I just dont think that it is worth being two tiers lower than Blacephelon, who I argue has worse problems than Gengar.

I actually find this argument quite satisfying. I suppose choice specs focus blast can KO timid Heatrans in stealth-rock I need to understand a lot about the meta. I just think that Gengar has lost it's star and the rise of priority users ( Tyranitar and Greninja-Ash still being very popular in the meta, better choice scarf special users, etc ). I forgot about Cursed-Body shutting down choice users, being forced to use struggle basically makes your pokemon dead-weight. I just thought Gengar has lost it in Gen 7 and should get ranked lower, but you may be right about Gengar not dropping. You seem to know more about the Smogon meta, so keep up the good work on correcting people like me.

Haven't posted here in a bit n_n

-> A-
Celesteela really isn't that good anymore, personally, I see it as the worst Pokemon in A. It's seeing a lot more competition as a Steel-type and is overly reliant on Leftovers + Leech Seed for recovery, though Ferrothorn faces this problem too, but too a lesser extent due to its solid dual typing. The fact that Tapu Bulu is running Nature's madness a lot more now is very annoying because Celesteela isn't a very good switch in because getting stripped of 50% health brings Celesteela a lot lower and means that it has to spam Leech Seed a lot more to stay healthy, which can be taken advantage of. The surge of Pokemon like Fightinium Z Hoopa-U and Zapdos are also kind of bad for Celesteela because they are easily capable of breaking through Celesteela.

I disagree with this nomination. Gary said it better than what I have to say, but I want to prove it as well. Sure it has been used less and faced more competition, but it still checks a lot of common Pokemon in the meta ( Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, checks Ferrothorn and Kartana slightly with flamethrower ). I just do not see it being in the same tier as Pokemon like Greninja or Chansey.

 

[Soul silver fan]

You're technically breaking a rule that's listed in the OP. Your nomination just states everything we already know about Alolan Marowak. Hell the only reason Wak is even ranked anymore is for its niche on TR, so we already know it has good synergy with Uxie, another TR staple that is also ranked for TR. If you want to nom Marowak up, you need to provide evidence as to why Marowak and more importantly Trick Room, has gotten good enough recently to cause Wak to increase in viability. As far as I'm aware just by watching SPL, I'm almost 100% certain that Trick Room hasn't been used once in the past 4 weeks, and it's already midseason. Yea sure you can say tour usage isn't everything, but Trick Room was far more popular a few months ago than it was now; it's practically a dead playstyle that only really sees usage on low-mid ladder for easy points until high ladder. Stuff like Heatran, Pex, Ash Gren, CB T-tar, and Hoopa are all pretty popular right now and kinda take a dump on Trick Room overall. Like yeah it's still "viable" but the fact that it's not seeing any high level play speaks volume. It's an unreliable, inconsistent, overall mediocre playstyle, which is why Wak is ranked in C+. In all honesty, all TR mons could probably just shift down one. It's just not good. Obviously a Pokemon with essentially base 80 Attack Huge Power is going to kill everything at +2. The calcs prove nothing. The issue is, good luck finding opportunities for it to set up in this meta as well as having success with Trick Room in general.

I mainly nommed it is the fact that fatmons like Buzzwole and hippo could be rising in the VR, and stuff like bisharp, one of alolawak's checks, is going down in viability. Basically, since these respective pokemon are rising/falling, it gives alolawak more importance as a breaker on TR. Besides that, cores like BuluTran, CelePex, and other fat cores are pretty hot at the moment, so alolawak helps TR break through them more easily with less mindgames.

 

[Jordy]

I mainly nommed it is the fact that fatmons like Buzzwole and hippo could be rising in the VR, and stuff like bisharp, one of alolawak's checks, is going down in viability. Basically, since these respective pokemon are rising/falling, it gives alolawak more importance as a breaker on TR. Besides that, cores like BuluTran, CelePex, and other fat cores are pretty hot at the moment, so alolawak helps TR break through them more easily with less mindgames.

It has always done that so i dont really see what the point of ur post was :/. Basically, what Gary was saying that nothing changed for it, hippo checks alowak fine, buzzwole just switches out or eq's on a potential sd. And Bisharp has been a shitmon for the longest of times so that hasnt really changed either.

 

[Soul silver fan]

It has always done that so i dont really see what the point of ur post was :/. Basically, what Gary was saying that nothing changed for it, hippo checks alowak fine, buzzwole just switches out or eq's on a potential sd. And Bisharp has been a shitmon for the longest of times so that hasnt really changed either.

It can easily kill both with flare blitz. Besides, based on usage stats, both rarely ever get paired with heatran, greatly reducing the number of mind games when it comes to using flare blitz. So I thought it deserved a spot with stakataka for its sheer power under trick room and near unresisted coverage against the meta atm.

 

[Jordy]

It can easily kill both with flare blitz. Besides, based on usage stats, both rarely ever get paired with heatran, greatly reducing the number of mind games when it comes to using flare blitz. So I thought it deserved a spot with stakataka for its sheer power under trick room and near unresisted coverage against the meta atm.

Hippowdon wins in a 1v1 situation and Buzzwole indeed gets OHKOd by Flare Blitz but what it does is basically force AloWak to not SD, which makes it a whole less scarier then u seem to think. Personally, I've run Buzzwole with Knock Off defensive Landorus-T cuz Buzzwole covers all HP Ice targets, so yeah the fact that Heatran isn't used much with it does not matter much. Also, the fact that it has near unresisted coverage, how does that matter??? It has always had that, and still fell to C+ so I don't see why that'd be a reason to rise to B-. U mention that Stakataka is B-, but Stakataka isn't exclusive to TR which u seem to think; I've made a team without fully depending on TR with Stakataka and it did completely fine, unlike Alolan Marowak, which fails to do much outside of TR. Also, TR has been on the downfall for some time as it isn't consistent and that is because it's way too match up based.

 

[Colonel M]

Adding Alolan-Marowak to the Shahdow Realm.

(Black listed).

 

[Soul silver fan]

I support the mane nom from ryomathekillers on page 21 of the thread ( i want to get some discussion going on this mon ). Not going to say anything anymore ( the post already outlines pretty much anything that can be said aside from the fact that mane functions very well with spikes support due to its good speed tier letting it clean very well when combined with support from the rising star koko, especially with electric terrain, so I see that mane could hitch a ride on this rise. In addition, it also outspeed kartana, a very dangerous metagame threat atm )

 

[wisdom dog]

I support the mane nom from ryomathekillers on page 21 of the thread ( i want to get some discussion going on this mon ). Not going to say anything anymore ( the post already outlines pretty much anything that can be said aside from the fact that mane functions very well with spikes support due to its good speed tier letting it clean very well when combined with support from the rising star koko, especially with electric terrain, so I see that mane could hitch a ride on this rise. In addition, it also outspeed kartana, a very dangerous metagame threat atm )

http://pokepast.es/5381e378e55413ef
This was voted on, and the council unanimously agreed it shouldnt rise

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

It is a pretty good Kartana check, and under electric terrain makes it powerful

I support the mane nom from ryomathekillers on page 21 of the thread ( i want to get some discussion going on this mon ). Not going to say anything anymore ( the post already outlines pretty much anything that can be said aside from the fact that mane functions very well with spikes support due to its good speed tier letting it clean very well when combined with support from the rising star koko, especially with electric terrain, so I see that mane could hitch a ride on this rise. In addition, it also outspeed kartana, a very dangerous metagame threat atm )

However, I’d like to add as against the mom, if u have electric terrain up and u have choice specs Koko, why waste a turn to go into Mane? Its a short argument, but logical I think. Anyways, I have a nom of my own:

Gengar: B-B+

I know things have been looking bad for the once premier ghost type of OU, but its still strong and quite capable. With Offensive utility, Specs, and even a new Z-Hex running around that I've been trying out (and is actually really effective) myself, its got quite a ludicrous number of ways it can be played. Being so unpredictable and having coverage moves that leave the opponent second guessing is great for Gengar.
But I'm only repeating what everyone knows of it. Why does it deserve a rise?

With the rise of Bulky Offense/ Balance, a good Balance breaker like Gengar is much appreciated on many teams. He fulfills a similar role to Tornadus-T, for example. While frail, most slower pokemon are forced to respect moves like taunt, and even usual ironclad checks like T-Tar have to respect focus blast. On the subject, T-Tar usage has fallen, giving Gengar a bit more breathing room. With the meta shifting around Kartana and Heatran, both of which Gengar can do massive damage (with Focus Blast for the two respectively) and with Z-Moves to handle mons like PhysDef Lando, I do believe Gengar is something more than he currently is. Yes, he's still gotta deal with being revenge killed by pursuit users, but I find it hard to see him on a level below Latios (which as an added bonus cannot even touch T-Tar), for example. Like Colonel M, I believe the other ghost type Blacephalon has many more problems than Gengar. For instance, Blacephalon's speed tier forces it to run a choice set to be effective, whereas Gengar is at a great speed tier, and can run sets other than choice. I'd even argue Gengar is the better Ghost type.

 

[matthewc20090]

hey yall

A- >>> A
Zapdos has been a huge defensive threat for a while now, and I think that it should be A to reflect that. Pokemon that it checks (lando, kart, bulu, hawlucha, celesteela) all have sky-high usage, meaning that Zapdos is pretty much never dead weight. And while all of the mons I mentioned can lure zapdos (darkium, rockium, edge, toxic respectively), none of them are common. As a defogger, its able to defog on the 2 most common hazard setters in the tier atm, Landorus and Ferrothorn, and can also pressure stall Clefable out of its stealth rocks, thus beating it 1v1. This is really good for stall teams and teams that need a defogger. Static variants of zapdos are also pretty good since they let you punish stuff like lando and mega lop. Finally, while usage stats aren't everything, zapdos does have a really high usage in spl and on the ladder.

haven't posted here in a while, lmk if i done something wrong

 

[paoisd]

i agree with the zapdos rise and while this may seem like a stretch, i can even see it going up to A+.everyone knows what this does so im kinda just echoing it and i think that the things that people have already said about this is worthy of A+ over just A

 

[Jordy]

i agree with the zapdos rise and while this may seem like a stretch, i can even see it going up to A+.everyone knows what this does so im kinda just echoing it and i think that the things that people have already said about this is worthy of A+ over just A

No, it's not worthy of A+ at all and i dont think anybody has ever seriously said this. Zapdos is good, yes, and yes, it should rise to A but A+ is too high, it's not as good as any other A+ mon and isn't as consistent as any other Pokemon in A+ is at its role (ie: getting overwhelmed by Hawlucha if its fast and rocks r up.)

 

[stuuful12]

To join in on the fun of lowering the Sticky webs mons, here is another nomination

Shuckle from C+ to C

Shuckle has been in a precarious situation ever since the start of USUM, and now is the time it should go down the rankings. Not only is Sticky Webs an incredibly niche playstyle as is, but a new Webs setter in Araquanid came out, and common teammates like Bisharp are also falling down the viability, so I find it only right to drop the rock-turtle-thingy.

The reasoning why Shuckle is even on C+ is because of its ability to compress Stealth Rocks, and Sticky Webs into one. But not only is difficult for Shuckle to set both, but it is hard for it to keep up the Hazards that it sets. Thanks to the new influx of Defoggers in the tier, Shuckle finds it harder to keep up hazards since most Defoggers like Rotom Wash and Scizor beat our rocky little friend one one one. Then there's the fact that Bisharp has fallen from grace. Since Bisharp is basically the only way to help Shuckle keep the hazards on the field, Shuckle should go down in the rankings alongside him to reflect that

Shuckle also has the problem of setting hazards, and then just sitting there doing nothing. It sets the hazards, and waits for it to either die, or an opportunity for it to switch arises. And since HO isn't exactly known for its repertoire of bulky pokemon, Shuckle can be a costly momentum sink. Compare and contrast that to Araquanid, who admittedly has faults, but can at least threaten the opponent with a Water Bubble Boosted Liquidation, or a Hidden Power Fire or a surprise Magic Coat, and can at least take a chunk out some common setters and defogger. While not having Stealth Rock does suck, it is made up for the fact that Araquanid can actually do things other than look pretty, once hazards are up compared to Shuckle.

TLDR: Thanks to being outclassed by Araquanid as a Sticky Webs setter, and old friends like Bisharp falling down in Viability Rankings, I find it right that Shuckle should go down to Shadow Realm that is C tier.

BTW this is my first post here, so lmk if I'm wrong

 

[power]

Amoonguss C+ - > B

big jump but amoonguss is hella legit atm and everyone knows what it does


Checks kartana, tapu koko, absorbs tspikes. Ultra high Kartana usage makes it especially legit. AV Stomping Tantrum is also not a meme and lures Heatran nicely. On top of this, it fills in for pex in beating stuff like ash gren. Both Black Sludge and AV are hot and reasonably splashable.

Noticed this during some sets vr discussion, C+ is way too low for this mon when stuff like Alo is in B.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Amoonguss C+ - > B

big jump but amoonguss is hella legit atm and everyone knows what it does


Checks kartana, tapu koko, absorbs tspikes. Ultra high Kartana usage makes it especially legit. AV Stomping Tantrum is also not a meme and lures Heatran nicely. On top of this, it fills in for pex in beating stuff like ash gren. Both Black Sludge and AV are hot and reasonably splashable.

Noticed this during some sets vr discussion, C+ is way too low for this mon when stuff like Alo is in B.

I fully Disagree with this. Amoongus is fine where it is, there is almost no reason to use amoongus over Mega Venosaur unless you really want to use a certain mega on your team and want spore which is a Niche and C+ is for just that. Anything Amoongus can do Mega Venosaur can do better Besides, the stats of Amoongus are so abysmal that I really don't think that It can manage to survive all too hits from anything unless it super resists it such as Bulu. Anything Amoongus can do Mega Veno can do better and due to thick fat and EQ it also lets Mega Veno be a great answer to heatran if it tries to come in on it While the AV Stomping Tantrum set won't be able to . Amoongus is pokemon that is outclassed and has a possibly useful niche depending on your team not having a mega so C+ Represents it perfectly

0 Atk Amoonguss Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 180-216 (55.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Venusaur-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 276-328 (85.4 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 132-156 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 282-332 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and trapping damage

But you may Have some shred of a point in Amola being too high but that's for another day.

 

[curiosity]

long post incoming, buckle down

a- to a

zapdos is undoubtedly a material - being one of the most consistent checks to the tier's most common threats, including the omnipresent Kartana, Lucha and Lando (lacking SE), as well as some lesser used 'mons, the likes of which include Scizor, Pinsir, the newly rising Torn, Lop (lacking PuP, as many are opting for Encore, QA, Healing Wish as the 4th Slot) and other misc. mons, while also being able to pressure the large majority of the tier's defensive threats including Ferro, Steela, Gliscor and Pex. This is especially important when you consider zapdos' capabilities as a defogger, and being able to deter a large amount of the tier's hazard setters including the previously mentioned Ferrothorn, Landorus and choice locked greninja (a weaker example, but it is still the tier's most influential spiker) with potential coverage is important, as it often results in a hazard clear field.
Finally, Zapdos appreciates the lack of breakers, namely Ttar, Kyub and Diancie, as it allows zapdos to perform without fearing pursuit form the former and allows it to strive consistently.
overall, these qualities (combined with anything i've missed / others have already covered, such as consistency, only being deadweight against stall) warrant a zapdos rise to a.

b to b-
bish is undeniably in a worse position than it was in early / mid sm, but it still has many redeeming qualities. While it suffers from a combination of lackluster special bulk and a speed tier that can only be described as disappointing, it is still a largely underprepared threat that can easily dismantle bulkier teams. Modern balance is often incredibly susceptible to the combination of Knock and Black Hole Eclispe. Most standard bulky offence squads suffer from similar problems, as most rely on simply lando + gear or other simple defensive cores, which, more than often are susceptible to bisharp. While bisharp is no where near the perfect 'mon, it still has it's merits (with many examples shown and linked below) recent meta changes have only put bisharp in a slightly better position in the meta than before.
To address some points made for a drop:
No, it does not need webs to function, as it can function perfectly without webs, as many teams have showcased. Comparatively, it does require more support than the likes of Hoopa, Mawile and Lele however, which is a possibility as to why many think webs is a requirement for it. As for being revenged by the likes of Kart Koko and Gren - the listed mons cannot comfortably take a boosted sucker punch. The prime examples should be Lele, Gren and Lucha, as the former avoids sucker punch damage by the means of Psychic Terrain and Shuriken and the latter barely takes 30% from a boosted sucker.
However, these same flaws warrant it to remain in the B tier, which is where it should stay.

meta changes for bish

Post: I exaggerate a slightbit a decent amount but it still describes what bish can do in the current meta.

Poek vs ABR / sets up on Chansey / Venu, Celes orClef
Here are two examples of teams that are incredibly weak to bisharp. ABR is using standard Balance, consisting of Alakazam / Ash Gren / Venusaur / Zygarde / Celesteela / Clefable. As you can see, Bisharp is able to break past Clef, Celesteela and Venu with the combination of Knock (and Black Hole Eclipse) and Iron Head, while being able to Sucker Zam. Poek's team also lacks defensive counterplay to Bish and is able to at least able to pick up one kill.

BTB vs Eo / doesn't need to set up, but does so on Kartana or Ttar / doesn't need to set up, but does so on chansey
Here we have another example of balance and our first example of Bulky offense. BTB's side is incredibly weak to Bish, with the only reliable answer being Keldeo. Again, Bish is able to maul through the defensive core of Landorus + Magearna and is able to Sucker zam and kartana for incredible amounts of damage. On Eo's side, Bish is easily able to ohko heatran, lando, chansey and mlatios with knock off and sucker (respectively) after a boost and heavily weaken Kyub and gear with sucker and iron head. Gear especially is notable since its a SG set, meaning its unable to take a Iron Head.

Gondra vs Azogue/ sets up on Scizor or Bulu / Scizor or Tang
Two more examples of bulky offence that is (again,) weak to bisharp. While Azogue has more defensive counterplay to Bisharp than any previously shown team (in the form of koko), koko is still heavily weakened. Scizor and Tangrowth both drop to BHE and Knock respectively. Gondra's counter play against Bisharp is LO Protean gren, meaning that it takes an additional +10% on top of its minimum 70% roll from +2 sucker.

FV vs PM2 / sets up on Ttar, riskily on mew or gastro / Tang or Gren
Again, both teams are incredibly weak to Bisharp. Nothing of FV's team can take a +2 Sucker or Knock / BHE and is forced to play mind games with Zard X. The same can be said for PM2's team, which is forced to play mind games with Pinsir and Greninja.

I ran out of time at this point so im going to just list some notable features that warrant it to rise or drop

a+ to s-
forces the use of bulky grounds and grasses, low opportunity cost / splashable, revenges everything barring lop and ash gren, is decently bulky and easily shreds through balance, offense and stall? Raise

c to higher
has the niche of the only offensive electric to use bulu and gliscor as setup, good speed tier, solidly checks koko, breaks balance and bulky offense? raise.

c+ to b / b-
low opportunity cost / more splashable than mvenu, invalidates setup and one other mon, broken ass regen, excellent support movepool andchecks offensive electrics and tspikes? rise.

c- to UR
utterly useless, has no notable niche, requires a valuable z crystal slot, meta is unfavourable for it, is hard countered by common balance mons such as celesteela, skarm and venu and is outclassed as a spiker? please remove it

 

[BlueLobster]

I fully Disagree with this. Amoongus is fine where it is, there is almost no reason to use amoongus over Mega Venosaur unless you really want to use a certain mega on your team and want spore which is a Niche and C+ is for just that. Anything Amoongus can do Mega Venosaur can do better Besides, the stats of Amoongus are so abysmal that I really don't think that It can manage to survive all too hits from anything unless it super resists it such as Bulu. Anything Amoongus can do Mega Veno can do better and due to thick fat and EQ it also lets Mega Veno be a great answer to heatran if it tries to come in on it While the AV Stomping Tantrum set won't be able to . Amoongus is pokemon that is outclassed and has a possibly useful niche depending on your team not having a mega so C+ Represents it perfectly

0 Atk Amoonguss Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 180-216 (55.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Venusaur-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 276-328 (85.4 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 132-156 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 282-332 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and trapping damage

But you may Have some shred of a point in Amola being too high but that's for another day.

I think you are underestimating the usefulness of regenerator. MVenu is quite easy to wear down with hazards and constantly taking volt switches before being forced out so it can be overwhelmed by something it just about checks, but you can't do that to amoonguss due to regenerator, which makes it a bit more reliable at checking Koko. As you said, it also has spore and the ability to be used with another mega, both of which are also good niches over Venu. I don't think it's B material, but it is better than the trash that resides in C+ and could definitely go to B-.

Agreeing with the shuckle nom, I nommed it down a few pages back on the basis that it is far worse at setting webs than araquanid and is just a shitty setter of anything tbh.
Also agree with the Zapdos nom, that thing's a pain in the ass.

Edit: Forgot to pledge support for Thundy-T, it's really underrated and also has some nice immunities and the ability to check KokoLucha. In general, I think it's really under explored and a pretty cool mon that might even have the potential to have a new set pop up at some point (someone mentioned AV which sounds like a decent albeit niche set, it's already got both double dance and fightinium which make it quite unpredictable as it is), and should definitely rise.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

I fully Disagree with this. Amoongus is fine where it is, there is almost no reason to use amoongus over Mega Venosaur unless you really want to use a certain mega on your team and want spore which is a Niche and C+ is for just that. Anything Amoongus can do Mega Venosaur can do better Besides, the stats of Amoongus are so abysmal that I really don't think that It can manage to survive all too hits from anything unless it super resists it such as Bulu. Anything Amoongus can do Mega Veno can do better and due to thick fat and EQ it also lets Mega Veno be a great answer to heatran if it tries to come in on it While the AV Stomping Tantrum set won't be able to . Amoongus is pokemon that is outclassed and has a possibly useful niche depending on your team not having a mega so C+ Represents it perfectly

0 Atk Amoonguss Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 180-216 (55.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Venusaur-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 276-328 (85.4 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 132-156 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 282-332 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and trapping damage

But you may Have some shred of a point in Amola being too high but that's for another day.

Amoongus is also much harder to wear down than Mega Venusuar due to regenerator. Regenerator also allows Amoongus to not be a complete momentum sink like Mega Venu is, so if your team hates how much Venu kills momentum, than Amoongus is an excellent choice. Mega Venu also should really never be used as a Heatran answer, as it gets blown away by offensive sets, while taunt in conjunction with Magma Storm make sure it very easy to overwhelm Venu. Venu also take super the mega slot, so Mega Venu is a lot less splashable than Amoongus.
Also, Amoongus walls a lot more than you think. It walls pre evolved ash greninja, Tapu Koko, non Knock off Sd Kartana and Scarf varianats as well, Kingdra, and the list goes on. Amoongus like you said also has Spore, which make a it extremly annoying to switch into, while Venu just gets walled by Toxapex. Amoongus is definitely better than dog shit like Mega Manetric and Manaphy, and should at least go to B-.
Edit: Sniped by Lobster.

 

[Soul silver fan]

I could say amoon deserves a spot in b- among mons like quag, which have a notable niche but have flaws that can easily hold them back. For example, kartana can punch right through amoongus if it tries to switch in, so it only works as a check if amoongus is already on the field. And amoongus can easily get forced out by tran and other A/a+/a- rank pokemon, especially with spore used up, allowing kartana to switch in safely. While the regenerator in combination with tspikes absorption, HP fire for kart, and tanking koko's hits give it a niche in this meta comparable to quagsire walling deadly common setup mons like hawlucha which is pretty much everywhere, it simply doesn't have the power or on field bulk to match up to B rank mons like el chomper, vincune, and gyard-m. So B- is definitely where it should go. Also, alo should stay in b because of its valuable niche as fattest wish passer in the OU tier with access to good ol scald to burn the living hell out of its targets.

 

[Pablo And Juan]

Now I'm gonna make a controversial post that I feel strongly about

Hawlucha A - A+

Hawlucha is in my opinion the best sweeper in the tier, and I think its rank should reflect its status. Hawluchas has the ability to set up on a vast majority of mons in the tier, this includes, Heatran, Defensive/Scarf Lando, Ferrothorn , Celesteela, Tapu Bulu, Scizor, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Chansey, Kartana. Hawluchas ability to set up freely on many on these mons makes it extremely easy for it to sweep, especially with mons like Heatran, Kartana, Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu on the rise. A major problem with Hawlucha however is its need for team support, however I believe this is not a major issue at this current stage, Hawlucha has the flexibility to be run with Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu and Tapu Koko, however Koko is by far the best partner. With Koko being one of the best mons in the tier right now, is surely does not come as a drawback when using Lucha. While this need for a Tapu surely hinders Luchas ability to be ran on various teams, it in my opinion does not hinder Luchas effectiveness in any way. However this meta is not all in favour of Lucha, with mons like Zapdos and Hippo on the rise this does lower Luchas effectiveness in some matchups. Overall I believe Hawlucha should rise for its ability to shred both defensive and offensive teams with ease and its Ranking in A