Z-Move Discussion

[666lumberjack]

Z-Conversion Porygon-Z seems like it has a lot of potential. You get to change the STAB you're exploiting Adaptability with on top of +1 in every stat (going Ghost-type with Shadow Ball seems pretty strong, but the optimal choice will depend on what defensive teams are using) perhaps with Shadow Ball / Psyshock / HP Fighting.

It's surprisingly bulky at +1/+1 too; Jolly Tyranitar's Crunch will always fail to KO ghost-poryz if SR is not on the field (presumably it almost always will be, but this is just for illustrative purposes). Whether you run Modest or Timid will depend on how popular the base ~150s are; Modest Porygon-Z can still outrun Mega Lopunny and Mega Manectric at +1 and easily OHKOes both, so that nature seems stronger (and it clinches a lot of nice KOs on things like Gliscor while enabling the small chance of a Blissey 2HKO with Psyshock if it is a Softboiled variant).

There's no way (that I can think of) to scout what type it will be after setting up either, so it might make a reasonable lure.

 

[KevlarX290]

I wonder if Z-Haze is worth using on Zygarde. It can use it after it transforms to bring it back to full health.

 

[Pagz]

How would a Z-Conversion Porygon-Z look like though? Perhaps Shadow Ball/Tri-Attack/Recover/Conversion? That way you have the option of Z moving Tri-Attack if you need the boost instantly (and you still have an Adaptability boosted move if for whatever reason you have to switch out after the Z-Conversion) and the option to Z-Convertsion into Ghost Type. The only things that resist that are Tyranitar and Bisharp anyway, and Porygon-Z was never going to do much to them anyway.

 

[Nexus]

Demonstration of Z-Splash status move: https://twitter.com/pokemon_PhD/status/796555732040744960

 

[jackgraves]

Demonstration of Z-Splash status move: https://twitter.com/pokemon_PhD/status/796555732040744960

Nothing happened...Or did it?!? O_o

I wonder if all Z-Status moves are this unceremonious about their secondary effects.

 

[Nexus]

Nothing happened...Or did it?!? O_o

I wonder if all Z-Status moves are this unceremonious about their secondary effects.

from the looks of it just boosted gyarados's Atk by 3 stages then it just did what Splash does. Going off that safe to assume the other status Z-moves will just apply the special Z effect first then the move will play out as normal.

 

[Pagz]

Z-Splash Swift Swim Kingdra Outrage anyone?

Z-Yawn giving +1 Speed would be a good to follow up with another stat boosting move.

Z-Bulk up/Z-Curse might be good for Pokemon like Conkeldurr who would love to learn Swords Dance, +2 Att and +1 Def in one move isn't too shabby.

The Z weather moves giving +1 Speed might be good for pokemon with weather boosting abilities like Sand Force Excadrill

Or just the classic Latios 195 base power Devastating Drake followed up by Draco Meteor and nuke everything into orbit.

 

[Bombkirby]

from the looks of it just boosted gyarados's Atk by 3 stages then it just did what Splash does. Going off that safe to assume the other status Z-moves will just apply the special Z effect first then the move will play out as normal.

Yup. So conversion would boost your stats, then change your type afterwards. Belly Drum heals you to full and then you do the move.

 

[Steel With It]

Does anybody know if priority Z-Moves keep their priority?

 

[MegaCharizard25]

I think people are over hyping z-celebrate and clones. It's one of those things that look good on paper but suck when put to practice. After the boost you have a useless moveslot. They also take up the z-move and item slot. And if you are phased out or are forced to switch due unfavourable matchups you lose the boosts. I'm not saying they're going to be completely useless just that you're going to have to pay a huge price to use these moves.

Also these z-celebrate and clones would have been pretty good in rotations too bad it was scrapped.

Also Celebrate Stored Power Espeon hype

Sorry to burst your bubble but espeon does not get both celebrate and stored power due to them being event exclusive and egg moves respectively but it does get magic bounce and Baton Pass with celebrate.

 

[Drake Wolf]

Is it me, or Marshadow's Z-Move is a reference to Fist of the North Star?

 

[LavaPlume]

Does anybody know if priority Z-Moves keep their priority?

basically this.
Because im also wondering how psychic terrain and priority stopping abilities work.
I assume quick guard will work like protect and the quick guarder will take a percentage of damage.
so what about terrain and abilities against priority Z-moves

 

[TheTraininator]

How would a Z-Conversion Porygon-Z look like though? Perhaps Shadow Ball/Tri-Attack/Recover/Conversion? That way you have the option of Z moving Tri-Attack if you need the boost instantly (and you still have an Adaptability boosted move if for whatever reason you have to switch out after the Z-Conversion) and the option to Z-Convertsion into Ghost Type. The only things that resist that are Tyranitar and Bisharp anyway, and Porygon-Z was never going to do much to them anyway.

I feel like if you're going full wincon with Porygon-Z ala Belly Drum Slurpuff, then you might as well consider either Ice Beam over Tri-Attack in the second slot or just do Ice Beam/Thunderbolt for optimal coverage. Shadow Ball nets you the best combination of defensive/offensive typing, but even with the shitty defensive typing provided, Ice Beam is worth considering in the main slot due to slightly higher power and no immunities. Tri-Attack would allow you to be not completely useless if setup fails, but if setup fails, then you have a Porygon-Z without an item slot anyway.

 

[666lumberjack]

How would a Z-Conversion Porygon-Z look like though? Perhaps Shadow Ball/Tri-Attack/Recover/Conversion? That way you have the option of Z moving Tri-Attack if you need the boost instantly (and you still have an Adaptability boosted move if for whatever reason you have to switch out after the Z-Conversion) and the option to Z-Conversion into Ghost Type. The only things that resist that are Tyranitar and Bisharp anyway, and Porygon-Z was never going to do much to them anyway.

Something like this:

Porygon-Z @ Normalium-Z
Modest | Adaptability
IVs: 31 Def, 0 Atk, others 30
28 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 224 Spe
Shadow Ball
Conversion
Hidden Power Fighting
Recover / Substitute / Tri-Attack

I don't think there's an argument for a STAB other than Shadow Ball if you're going with Adaptability; whether or not Download is a consideration will depend heavily on the meta, but 160BP Shadow Ball is just so spammable it's unreal. Tri-Attack is only useful for softening up the opposing team before you set up, but I don't think it hits the (very few) things you can't break hard enough to justify using it. TTar is crushed by +1 HP Fighting (there is no TTar set used in ORAS that will beat a boosted PZ 1v1) and obviously Bisharp dies although Sucker Punch is very annoying (amusingly, without a boosting item Bisharp will always fail to OHKO after SR because of the Sucker Punch nerf). The only things I can think of that comfortably wall this are Blissey (which can't hurt you without Toxic) and Guzzlord, and the latter has no reliable recovery so it's extremely easy to put a little chip damage on it and 2HKO. Recover lets you leverage the bulk against more defensive teams, but Sub is a status shield which means you can PP Stall Blissey's Recovery (except in case of Softboiled+Wish) and beat that too.

EVs maximize bulk with odd HP, outrun base 135 +ve at +1 and maximize damage output.

 

[Bombkirby]

I think people are over hyping z-celebrate and clones. It's one of those things that look good on paper but suck when put to practice. After the boost you have a useless moveslot. They also take up the z-move and item slot. And if you are phased out or are forced to switch due unfavourable matchups you lose the boosts. I'm not saying they're going to be completely useless just that you're going to have to pay a huge price to use these moves.

Also these z-celebrate and clones would have been pretty good in rotations too bad it was scrapped.



Sorry to burst your bubble but espeon does not get both celebrate and stored power due to them being event exclusive and egg moves respectively but it does get magic bounce and Baton Pass with celebrate.

It's like an amazing liechi berry but you can activate it anytime you want. Both use up an item slot, both are one use, and the berry is viable despite those shortcomings. It'll have a use.

 

[Zukrad]

So... fun stuff to check out when Sun & Moon drops:

Porygon-Z @ Normalium-Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Conversion

I personally preffer Bolt Beam a bit better, but Adaptability Shadow Ball sounds amazing as well

Azumarill @ Normalium-Z
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

Recovers to full health before Belly Drumming up... this thing is going to be awesome

Heatran @ Grassium-Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Solar Beam
Grassium-Z Heatran is like a glorified PowerTran. Bloom Doom not only is more powerful (190 > 120), it doesn't get less power under Rain or Sand (I think), and it goes throug protect (only 25% of the damage... but that is better than 0%)

Jirachi @ Normalium-Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 132 Atk / 160 SpA / 216 Spe
Mild Nature
- Iron Head
- Icy Wind
- Thunderbolt
- Happy Hour

lol, this thing is going to be fun, ScarfRachi + BandRachi + SpecsRachi + AVRachi + DefenseCurlRachi all in one set

Also, anything with Moxie, Beast Boost or Battle Bond are going to appreciate Z-moves

 

[jordanthejq12]

I think people are over hyping z-celebrate and clones. It's one of those things that look good on paper but suck when put to practice. After the boost you have a useless moveslot. They also take up the z-move and item slot. And if you are phased out or are forced to switch due unfavourable matchups you lose the boosts. I'm not saying they're going to be completely useless just that you're going to have to pay a huge price to use these moves.

It's basically like any other "one-shot sweeper" (Belly Drum, Shell Smash, Geomancy). Except you literally only get one shot. You can BD again if you have the HP, SS again if you can survive the defense drops, or Geo again if you can survive the recharge turn. You can't Z-whatever again.

 

[Hitzel]

Does anybody know if priority Z-Moves keep their priority?

Having a friend test this. Should know in the next 20 mins.

*Edit*

Can confirm, z-moves aren't retaining priority. Rip.

 

[konstantellos]

Can you use a Z-move and a Mega Evolution in the same battle? Or can you only activate the Z-Ring once (either for a Mega Evolution or a Z-move)?

 

[Funbot28]

I wonder how we would ban Z-moves that raise Evasion. Do we like just ban the crystal, or the combination of the crystal with that specific move.

 

[Bombkirby]

I wonder how we would ban Z-moves that raise Evasion. Do we like just ban the crystal, or the combination of the crystal with that specific move.

You end up banning a lot of harmless things with either of those methods. Probably the same way we ban sleep clause. We Bend the rules.

 

[Zukrad]

Can you use a Z-move and a Mega Evolution in the same battle? Or can you only activate the Z-Ring once (either for a Mega Evolution or a Z-move)?

I hope that you can use both... if not, they killed Z-Moves before they even got a chance

I wonder how we would ban Z-moves that raise Evasion. Do we like just ban the crystal, or the combination of the crystal with that specific move.

How the clause is worded rn is:

Evasion Clause
A player cannot increase their Pokémon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion. Items or indirect boosts do not break this clause.

I guess Z-moves are considered in that rule

So, you can have Fightium-Z (or whatever) + Detect in the same Pokémon, but if you use Z-Detect, Showdown doesn't let you (like the Mega Ray clause or the Sleep Clause) or in 3DS, you lose the battle (Again, like Mega Ray or Sleep Clause)

 

[Count Bleck]

http://pastebin.com/d5Hed1cw

Status Z Move Pastebin.

Interestingly, Forest's Curse and Trick-or-Treat join the "Raise all stats club, too.

 

[konstantellos]

There are interesting weather sets as well because of the +1 Speed weather moves give.

Keldeo @ Waterium-Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power Electric/Grass
- Rain Dance

Manaphy @ Waterium-Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Psychic
- Tail Glow
- Rain Dance

Charizard @ Firium-Z
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Sunny Day

Darmanitan @ Firium-Z
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sunny Day

It is also important to note that if you don't need the Speed you also have the option to use your Crystal just for extra power on your STAB so there is some versatility. For example if the Manaphy is up against a bulky team you can use the Tail Glow/Rain Dance and then use Waterium-Z on Surf instead of on Rain Dance.

 

[Count Bleck]

Baton Pass Reset user's stats

There's a joke in here somewhere....