CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[snake]

My two favorite abilities proposed thus far are Tough Claws and Aerilate. This is snek the user posting, not snek the TL.

Tough Claws is actually pretty neat because it allows us to have an Attack stat that's high enough to not make Spirit Shackle powerful but not super duper spammable but allow the rest of CAP23's moves to be spammable as well. If the argument "give it a higher attack stat" can be made, then "disallow Shadow Claw so Spirit Shackle is still the best STAB move" can also be made. This ability could boost physical Psychic coverage moves, which would help break through our checks.

Aerilate is fantastic for our threatlist because it hits most of them for super effective damage. While one could say "why not give it Brave Bird over Aerilate Return?", Aerilate Return has almost no downside whatsoever, allowing CAP23 to effectively chip down Tomohawk. In combination with Toxic or other residual damage, Tomohawk will be sweating to Roost off the damage as its trapped.

On a side note, Comatose is a cool ability that lets us not have to worry about Rest stalling or status in general, but I'm worried how strong it'd be.

I particularly dislike Poison Heal - while it does provide the sustain and status immunity CAP23 wants, it completely cancels the Leech Seed damage from Ferrothorn and Celesteela. If abilities denying Leech Seed are undesirable, this one is too.

 

[Deck Knight]

The number one problem with Poison Heal is that if you're using Toxic Orb, you're not using a Z-Crystal and therefore a large amount of thought behind the typing and threats stages is lost. That and Poison Heal is pretty powerful anyway.

Tough Claws and "give CAP a higher attack stat" serve different purposes. Tough Claws shifts the damage differential between Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot (/Shadow Claw), just giving more Base Attack later does not. Tough Claws also boosts Grass Knot but that seems so niche and so few of our targets (bar Colossoil) care about Grass Knot that it's really an aside.

If we're going to discuss Aerilate as a proxy for strong flying coverage, why not discuss Reckless or Rock Head given it boosts Brave Bird or possibly other desirable coverage (Jump Kick / HJK?) against our targets. After all, you can't use Flyinium-Z with Aerilate Double-Edge, but you could use it with Reckless / Rock Head Brave Bird. Reckless is arguably the better of the two because the damage boost can be compounded into a KO with a Z-Move, but obviously avoiding recoil is desirable as well.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

So, its time for my thoughts on the abilities for TrapCAP
What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?
Cursed Body - This ability could be used as it can probably take hits from physical attackers and a chance in disabling some of their moves where it can then attack.
Adaptability - This boosts TrapCAP's power in dwindling down the foe.
Magic Guard - This allows the Pokemon to not get damaged by statuses (and basically slaughter Umbreon due to its signature strategy of Toxic Stalling) weathers and life orb damage!
Tough Claws - Like what Deck Knight said, allows it to be able to utilize Anchor Shot and Dragon Claw. But then there's Banded Outrage and even destroy Tomohawk. So I say it could work well but it might work too well because as the previously mentioned Banded Outrage in this section and Deck Knight's thoughts on the abilities.
What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?
Stakeout would be too powerful as when a target switches in, TrapCAP could just easily wear them out.
Corrosion would be too powerful as it can basically destroy Celesteela and other poison and steel type Pokemon.
Shadow Tag or Arena Trap is anti-concept since it defeats the whole purpose of TrapCAP's purpose.
Poison Heal (as said by reachzero) could be very devestating considering its typing and trapping purpose.

 

[Zephias]

It is going to be very hard for us to boost the attack of CAP23 to the point of us breaking through some of the things we threaten, really. Nyttyn did some calculations showing a matchup vs Celesteela over at Discord, for example, showing it's probably not gonna go too well even at 150 ATK.

252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 126-148 (31.6 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery @ 150 attack

I'd make more calculations but I am currently not home. However, the general status for CAP23 checks and counters are A) Things it can't Trap-Toxic that are bulky and B) Things that deal too much damage for it to trade effectively. Therefore, I don't necessarily see how a higher ended attack would necessarily hurt our threatlist.

In regard to Deck's newest post, part of the issue I have with Tough Claws is that not only does it reduce the damage delta between our discussed Trapping moves. It also reduces the damage delta between Spirit Shackle and the other Ghost STAB options, which will almost certainly make SS obsolete. The neutral coverage that Dragon/Ghost has means the loss of coverage options may not even be an issue.

 

[Okamu]

A -Ate ability would be good, but maybe giving it such a good offensive coverage with Aerialite can be quite messy... Why not Pixilate?

Yeah, I know Dragon have to be a check, but with CAP23's Dragon STAB it'll dent them anyways, and Fairy is a type can be slightier easier to wall imo, and it threatens Tomohawk at same time

"CAP23 should be checked by:
.
.
.
h. Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados"

Pixilate would make it much more difficult for many dark types, especially frailer ones such as Greninja, to come in and try to check CAP23 due to SE coverage on CAP23's part. So, there's an idea for why not Pixilate. Other than that I'm not particularly moved by any other abilities quite yet, though I will say I particularly dislike Poison Heal just because it comes off immediately as more inclined towards stall than prolonging an offensive presence.

 

[S. Court]

"CAP23 should be checked by:
.
.
.
h. Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados"

Ohh right, I forgot this one, my bad

To avoid one liners, I agree with Deck's idea to considere Reckless or Rock Head, specially because of the idea that'd give a incentive to use Brave Bird by itself or in tandem with a Z-Move, that'd come handy against Tomohawk

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Why are people saying that Stakeout, Analytic and Corrosion are anti-concept? They have some of the most extreme synergy with trapping moves to date.

I'd like to Nominate Moxie, Suction Cups, Pressure, Infiltrate, Merciless, and Sticky Hold for discussion.

Moxie; given that it's going to be trying to trap a mon that's going to give it a +1 Boost under safe conditions, this might fall under the same problems as Tough Claws; however, it needs to be able to itself up that way, which makes it less boring, and still allows for more interesting play.

Suction Cups; The antithesis is trapping is phazing. We're already immune to Circle Throw, but Arghonaut can still Roar. This is two-fold good - given that Circle Throw is still a new toy for Arghonaut to play with, to have it nullified so quickly and force it back to using Roar seems inherently mean, just on the off chance it attempts to phaze something we've already determined is a counter is also pretty counter intuitive. This also affects Skarmory's Whirlwind, but given that we're going to be switching in.

Pressure; Spending a lot of time on the field is going to make staying in for longer a priority. You can also help out your team through PP stall on the more dangerous moves - switching into something like a Fire Blast, which you can then maybe Spite, to drop it to 2PP is going to help out the team.

Merciless; Toxic'ing things isn't really a viable tactic, but with Merciless able to now hit through Stat-Ups after a Toxic, without the brute force of Unaware (and the resilience provided there), it can rack up a fairly impressive ability to hit hard against Argho or Revenankh Bulk Ups. It increases damage, and favours the use of trapping moves to ensure that you can hit your chosen target with Crits.

Sticky Hold; We don't need to use Z-Crystals this way. There is much greater variety, allows the use of possible DoT Binding Moves with Binding Band, doesn't get instakilled by Knock off after SR (
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 392-464 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO, no Griseous), while still maintaining weakness against Knock Off.

 

[Deck Knight]

Quanyails Liquid Ooze reverses the healing effect so it becomes damage. CAP still takes 12% damage, but instead of the opponent healing HP equal to 12% of CAP's max, they take damage equal to 12.5% of CAP's max. So if CAP has 320 HP and is seeded, without Liquid Ooze Leech Seed absorbs 40 HP and heals the opponent for 40, with Liquid Ooze Leech Seed absorbs 40 HP and the opponent takes 40 HP in damage as well.

Another aspect of Tough Claws is it doesn't boost certain coverage moves like Earthquake, Icicle Crash, and Stone Edge. Basically the two aren't interchangeable because the effects on coverage alter significantly. Fun fact tho: Infestation is a contact move and Tough Claws boosts it to a mighty effective Base Power of 26 >_>

To people who will be worried Spirit Shackle won't be used with Tough Claws, bear in mind that Spirit Shackle doesn't trigger contact effects like Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmet, Static, and Flame Body and still has respectable Base Power. Compared with unSTAB Anchor Shot, Spirit Shackle has 120 effective power and Anchor Shot has 104.

 

[Durengardnit]

Ohh right, I forgot this one, my bad

To avoid one liners, I agree with Deck's idea to considere Reckless or Rock Head, specially because of the idea that'd give a incentive to use Brave Bird by itself or in tandem with a Z-Move, that'd come handy against Tomohawk

Instead of Pixilate you could suggest Refrigerate if we really want to go through all the -ates (Galvanize is off the table since it would beat Skarmory, Celesteela and Tapu Fini) :P

Refrigerate hits Tomohawk, Tangrowth and Zapdos super effective and also easily handels Lando-T, Intimidate drop be damned.

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

It also hits Colossoil and 4x's Zygarde/Garchomp, meaning it needs to be Spe <95 with low bulk. I'd rather just give it Icicle Crash or something instead and let non STAB do its work.

 

[S. Court]

Instead of Pixilate you could suggest Refrigerate if we really want to go through all the -ates (Galvanize is off the table since it would beat Skarmory, Celesteela and Tapu Fini) :P

Refrigerate hits Tomohawk, Tangrowth and Zapdos super effective and also easily handels Lando-T, Intimidate drop be damned.

Wouldn't that add a trouble targetting Tomohawk considering it can use Priority Roost to mitigate the damage?

Under that circunstance, Aerialite is probably the best choice if we want to consider a -Ate ability

 

[reachzero]

It's a little late to worry about general offensive coverage, to be honest: Ghost/Dragon already hits pretty much everything neutral, and the benefit of Aerilate Return vs base 80 Ghost move is basically marginal--it wouldn't really make a difference against Celesteela, Skarmory, MScizor, Ferrothorn and Tapu Fini, but it would make a huge difference in actually breaking Tomohawk and Tangrowth. To address the earlier concern of "why not just add a Flying move?", there is no Flying move currently that is strong enough to put Tomohawk away the way that Aerilate Double Edge would (even Brave Bird, though this isn't exactly the right stage to go into calcs). Deck Knight is correct that Reckless would also work because of the option of adding Brave Bird, though I don't like that option quite as much.

By the way, the assumptions being made in this thread that CAP 23 will have access to both Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot are not only polljumping but bizarre. Why would we assume CAP23 will have more than one trapping move?

Edit: That is ridiculous, Deck Knight. Imagine that we had interpreted "Use the Boost to Get Through" to mean that Naviathan should get every boosting move. There is simply no justification for multiple trapping moves (especially the ones that are signature moves!) when they are essentially alike in function and differ only in coverage.

 

[Deck Knight]

Well, the concept is TrapCAP and we specifically talked even about Fairy Lock for all its weirdness in the Concept Assessment. Pretty much everyone has been assuming CAP will have the full range of viable (legal) trapping moves and strategies.

 

[lydian]

Why not use Magic Guard then? As it solves the Brave Bird issue and still keeps CAP safe from status while not deviating from its Z Move goal like Poison Heal did? The only difference between Aerialate Return and Magic Guard Brave Bird is that the former has only 2.4 more Base Power, but Magic Guard also gives CAP an ability that has a use other than allowing it to realiably deal with Tomo, Venu and Tang

 

[Drew]

Why not use Magic Guard then? As it solves the Brave Bird issue and still keeps CAP safe from status while not deviating from its Z Move goal like Poison Heal did? The only difference between Aerialate Return and Magic Guard Brave Bird is that the former has only 2.4 more Base Power, but Magic Guard also gives CAP an ability that has a use other than allowing it to realiably deal with Tomo, Venu and Tang

Didn't we already answer this? Being immune to Leech Seed isn't an option as far as I can tell.

 

[S. Court]

Why not use Magic Guard then? As it solves the Brave Bird issue and still keeps CAP safe from status while not deviating from its Z Move goal like Poison Heal did? The only difference between Aerialate Return and Magic Guard Brave Bird is that the former has only 2.4 more Base Power, but Magic Guard also gives CAP an ability that has a use other than allowing it to realiably deal with Tomo, Venu and Tang

I think it's because being inmune to residual damage will reduce the posiblity Ferrothorn and Celesteela can counter CAP23 (which are in counter list) by denying their posibility to recover any damage

 

[lydian]

Didn't we already answer this? Being immune to Leech Seed isn't an option as far as I can tell.

I think it's because being inmune to residual damage will reduce the posiblity Ferrothorn and Celesteela can counter CAP23 (which are in counter list) by denying their posibility to recover any damage

I'm sorry, I didn't really realize about that issue on my post. I would consider Rock Head then, but there's actually no benefits that Rock Head has over Aerialate in this scenario...

 

[S. Court]

I'm sorry, I didn't really realize about that issue on my post. I would consider Rock Head then, but there's actually no benefits that Rock Head has over Aerialate in this scenario...

I wouldn't be that sure. Pyroark, Mollux and Zapdos are Pokemon we want to pressure, and Rock Head Head Smash could be a useful tool agains them

 

[Project_Mars]

Abilities I like with:
Aerialate: Out of the different -ate abilities, this is the most balanced for what we want TrapCAP to do. It hits multiple Pokemon on the list of stuff we want to check/counter while being neutral to most of the stuff we want to be checked by and resisted by 2 of our counters. And the only other real reasonable flying coverage is Brave Bird, which has recoil issues. While Reckless/Rock Head would affect Brave Bird and make other recoil attacks more attractive... What other recoil attacks would we be okay with using that wouldn't be bad news to TrapCAP's checks/counters? (Okay, Head Smash is one.)
Comatose: I think a Status-Immune ability would be good for TrapCAP, since Toxic and Burn would be an issue. That said, much like Naviathan's Primary Ability process, I do not think going with a straight up status immunity ability is a good idea... Unlike then, however, I hold this view for the Primary Ability. I am perfectly fine supporting stuff like Immunity for TrapCAP... just not at this time. Comatose is a bit different since it blocks all non-volatile status effects at the same time, which is actually a pretty big deal, even at the expense of a potential Rest set.
Tough Claws: The ability currently getting a lot of discussion, Tough Claws would be a fairly nice and fairly generic buff to contact moves that would work pretty well overall. I don't think Tough Claws Shadow Claw having a higher base attack than Spirit Shackle is a huge issue since Spirit Shackle has enough good points to remain relevant.

Abilities I am fine with:
Guts: Guts is definitely a good answer to status... but I believe Flame Orb would then become the go-to item in this case, which I ain't a huge fan of. That said, this would be the only chance to give Guts to TrapCAP, so if we want to consider it, now is definitely the time.
Defiant/Intimidate: are fairly generically good abilities that would help in a few matchups. We could probably do better though.

Abilities I do not like:
Steelworker: Would be a terrible idea if we want to preserve Fairies as a check and would likely cause issues with Ice-Types that want to switch in.
Pixilate/Refrigerate: Messes with the checks and counters way too much. Refrigerate at least has good match-ups vs multiple Pokemon we want to check/counter while just affecting a couple of Pokemon on the checked by/countered by list... Pixilate just has Tomo and Argonaut... and pretty much all dark-types.
Adaptability: When a lot of stuff checks/counters TrapCAP based on stats alone, I would think that powering up the STABs used by TrapCAP would have an adverse effect on that kind of thing. It's an interesting choice that plays to the natural neutral power of the Dragon/Ghost typing... but it seems like it would be a bit too much.

 

[Drew]

Putting forward Contrary since Defiant seems to be up for discussion. In my opinion, Contrary is a more toned down version of it, letting CAP23 get a boost off of Lando, while also letting it still be beaten by Skarmory and Kerfluffle. I still like Tough Claws more, I just think if you want Defiant Contrary would would be a much better option to keep the threatlist in tact. Also it gets the same net boost from Intimidate as a Defiant user would sooooooooooooooooooooo

E: Snake brought up Draco on Discord, but if we would go this path we could just give it horrible Special Attack. Like I'm talking Mega Beedrill levels of horrible Special Attack.

 

[S. Court]

Putting forward Contrary since Defiant seems to be up for discussion. In my opinion, Contrary is a more toned down version of it, letting CAP23 get a boost off of Lando, while also letting it still be beaten by Skarmory and Kerfluffle. I still like Tough Claws more, I just think if you want Defiant Contrary would would be a much better option to keep the threatlist in tact. Also it gets the same net boost from Intimidate as a Defiant user would sooooooooooooooooooooo

Considering almost all dragons get Draco Meteor, wouldn't Contrary put a danger to become CAP23's targets in setup bait?

 

[Sereg]

What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

Volt Absorb, Motor Drive and Lightning Rod all allow us to trap Volt Switchers, which we would not be able to otherwise and give us a side benefit as well. These are in order of my most to least preferred.

Rattled lets us punish U-Turn, ghosts and dark coverage which otherwise ruin our day.


Defiant, Contrary and Competitive punish Intimidators like Lando and Parting Shot, which are things we'd like to punish. Again, these are in order of preference. Contrary unfortunately limits our movepool a bit


Steelworker and Tough Claws make Anchor Shot more appealing, which is good. As for assuming the movepool, it's been discussed multiple times already that having access to multiple, usable trapping move is pro-concept and Spirit Shackle can't trap normal types which we've already decided we want to be able to trap.

Rough Skin/Iron Barbs, Flame Body, Poison Point and Static punish Volt-Turn, which, again, we want to punish. Again, in order of my preference based on how effective the punishment is IMO.


What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?

Shadow Tag, Arena Trap and Magnet Pull remove the need for trapping moves as they trap themselves.

Stakeout and Analytic are similar to the above. They reduce the opponent's ability to switch anyway, making trapping moves less necessary.

Sheer Force removes the trapping effect we're trying to capitalise on.

Corrosion and Poison Heal encourage stalling, which we said e didn't want and the former beats steels, which we really don't want while the latter makes us almost always run a specific item, when we wanted to encourage Z-Crystals, so we on't ant that either. The latter point also makes Guts, Toxic Boost and similar abilities less appealing to me.

 

[Mx]

One of my main fears with this are Choice items, they are the antithesis of our concept, as they require us to spam just one attack, so I'd like to see an ability that requires an Item to work, to discourage them, of those my favorite is Guts, as it basically means that Choice Band would be always outclassed, allowing our main set to take advantage of our trapping abilities better, while providing a huge damage boost. As for the concern that this means that we can't use a Z-Crystal, well I think that is a sacrifice we have to make to make sure we don't end up just always spamming banded Spirit Shackle, with coverage to deal with troublesome walls like Tomohawk

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Overall I'm somewhat baffled on Aerilate as I think Tough Claws Psychic Move or even Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs does it better. Based on the list of things we want to threaten, Psychic coverage beats a bit more than Flying iirc so it seems like the better option to boost.

Overall though, I think dealing with status is more important. The fat mons we're targeting commonly carry toxic, and the ones with recovery can stall out CAP if toxic is set. Immunity is perhaps the most vanilla option but sometimes vanilla options just work. Toxic Boost might sound appealing but the residual damage is a turn off; Guts is better since burn damage doesn't cripple CAP as much as Toxic. Guts, of course, is potentially more threatening but... item interaction is weird. We can't hold a Flame Orb and a Z Crystal, so the opponent is able to identify if we have a hidden Z move or not almost right away which unfortunately lowers our abilities to lure something in. Also note how Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs or Aerilate also diminish our luring potential since either ability would make strong Psychic or Flying coverage a given, not an unknown.

Comatose is a buffed Immunity but it has a few potentially scary mechanics we'd just have to be mindful in the future; it can use Sleep Talk when "awake" which allows it to bias negative priority moves in a pinch, namely Trick Room and Phazing. Our concept really doesn't have room for these and it's hard to say how OP a Comotose CAP23 would be with these anyway, but I just don't want to necessarily ignore them... They are potentially manageable but just shouldn't be forgotten about.

And again, immunity is vanilla but I think it's effect is just one of the things we need the most. If we can find something else with the same base effect (psn immunity) that isn't OP with additional effects, then cool. If not, I don't think we should overlook immunity just because it isn't a top tier ability in its own right. We need an ability that fits our needs. Having a seemingly underpowered primary ability is perfectly acceptable if it still puts in a lot of work and helps our unique concept.

 

[S. Court]

If we want a not dangerous way to remove status without compromising the item slot, without forcing CAP23's to switch (because we could use Natural Cure) and something more useful than Immunity... What about Shed Skin? It fits in those categories, but it's a bit inconsistent

Another alternative would be Hydratation and Leaf Guard in Rain and Sun respectively, but I don't think we sould make CAP23's utility weather based