Defensive Threats (Just how offensive will the metagame be?)

[Not Scicky]

Does it even need wish though? Or heal bell? You're underestimating the ability to restore ALL of your HP as well as any status with only 1 move.

 

[Upstart]

I realize that we don't want to start with anything banned and I completely agree if we are refering to pokemon. But I find that banning the item that allows you rapid spin on a ghost to be almost broken as it almost illiminates stall as a playstyle which in itself demonstrates the definition of broken.

 

[Ryanide]

I've been looking at Furijiio, the snowflake pokemon, and it's actually kind of interesting. It laughs at special moves and despite it's paltry base 30 defense it gets acid armor and barrier. It's not slow either with 105 base speed and has a respectable 95 base special attack. On top of that it also gets recover...

 

[jolteon-vaporeon]

Hail stall anyone=P

Shitton of snow body pokemon=>you can run 2 stallreins essentially

And to say hail never got any upgrades XXXXD

 

[howabe]

What about Shubarugo (The Steel/Bug Knight)?
105 in both defences and Steel resistances isn't bad at all and 135 Attack means he can come in on something that struggles to harm him and hit the switch-in hard...

 

[XenoIncognito]

I realize that we don't want to start with anything banned and I completely agree if we are refering to pokemon. But I find that banning the item that allows you rapid spin on a ghost to be almost broken as it almost illiminates stall as a playstyle which in itself demonstrates the definition of broken.

And is that really a bad thing? It's obvious that gamefreak wanted to eliminate stall, with the hyper-offensive direction this gen has been taking.

 

[Lee]

The people who are running around shouting that stall is dead would do well to look back at pre-DP - then, like now, people were running around shouting about how Goukazaru and Gabiarasu or whatever we knew them as then were going to make stall obsolete but as we all know, stall was a very effective playstyle in Gen 4 even before Rotom-A's introduction.

Aiming Mark is going to be difficult to play around for sure but remember that Knock Off is a fantastic move on Stall teams being able to negate Leftovers recovery and remove troublesome Life Orbs. This just makes it even better. Also, most Spinners are vulnerable to Pursuit or the new Shadow Tag user, Shanderaa, so they might find their way onto stall teams too, similar to how ScarfTar started popping up on stall teams in late DPPt.

Finally...and this depends on the mechanics of Aiming Mark but (and I might be overstepping the boundaries of good taste ) but consider Shedinja. I'd wager Aiming Mark doesn't break through Wonder Guard and if that was the case Shedinja could be a solid Spin blocker for stall, being immune to the standard sets of Starmie, Donphan, Tentacruel, Forry etc and the stall team will have little trouble keeping entry hazards away with their own Aiming Marker. SS is still a problem of course, but on the subject of weather Shedinja would help out immeasurably against Rain Dance teams. I guess what I'm trying to say with that example is stall will still exist in BW but it will likely have a very different look to it but the goals will be the same. It's gonna be tough for sure, but DPPt proved there's a lot of talented, intelligent, creative stall players out there and I'm sure they won't go down without a fight.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Lee, that's an excellent point. I've been looking through old pre-DP threads, and I've seen exactly what you described-people proclaiming the death of stall. I also never thought of Shedinja as a spin blocker, if in fact Aiming Mark doesn't hit through Wonder Guard. Shedinja walls most Starmie sets, easily eliminating D/P's most prominent spin blocker. Although there will be new spinners this generation, Shedinja could possibly be immune to their attacks too. As you said, stall will look very different in B/W. Just as stall evolved past just Skarmbliss to combat Infernape in D/P, stall playing will evolve to combat these new threats.

 

[Upstart]

I honestly don't see the death of stall as skarm bliss and several other walls hold thier own agaisnt all these new threats. I mean even the dragons ONONOwhatever is still walled hard by Skarm. The real pseudo can't be any more dangerous then MixMence. But as I said I just feel the disadvantage in spin blocking will hurt stall greatly. But as we have seen several players wanting to play stall or any type of team can rise to the occasion and find ways around their obstacles

 

[Ice-eyes]

Shanderaa can trap most spinners and kill everything that decides to Trick if you Scarf it; it is a lot like ScarfTar, and you won't get swept by Doryuuzu if you use it which is a plus.

What is stall going to do in the face of awesome stallbreakers like Taunt / Calm Mind Kerudio though?

 

[RaveSage]

Alright. I spent a bit of time going through the mew mons on Serebii with what little they have on their moves. I'll look at the missing gaps here later but these are more generalizations I came up with. Referred to by number since that's easier to look up.

Potential Defensive Threats

#494
Base 100 in all stats
New Ability
No known defensive moves on level up

#518
Like Cress… but cuter? (No Levitate)
Has Yawn, Moonlight, Calm Mind, and some unknown attacks through level up

#526
Benefits from new Sturdy
Great Defense and plenty of Attack
Gets Stealth Rock and EXPLOSION

#531
New Abilities (It their bad, this is done.)
No known healing moves through level up

#534
Decent Defense to complement its Attack
Pure Fighting = Useful resistance to Bug and Dark

#538
Like #534, but overall Bulkier with a (less useful?) ability
Has Seismic Toss and Body Slam

#555 (Daruma Mode)
Lots of weaknesses but resistances as well
Signature ability
Can wall on either spectrum but will probably be forced to specialize due to typing
Only defensive level up option is Taunt

#558
Good defensive typing with it's stats
Has Stealth Rock
Decent Attack with a level up pool to support it

#560 (Reverse Fisjal Gecko)
Shed Skin is welcome
Resistance to Rock, Ghost, and Dark. Immune to Physic
Can wall either or potentially both offenses with his typing
not a lot of defensive options from level up

#563
Ability helps in countering physical attackers who rely on their ability
Some of the best defenses this gen. Can wall either end or potentially both.
Great support level up pool including (the much needed) Haze, Night Shade, Will-o-Wisp, Grudge, and Destiny Bond

#565
Solid Rock helps its weaknesses a bit. Switching into Earthquake is no problem.
Decent support level up pool as well as Curse + Aqua Jet

#576 (Goth Lolimon)
Potentially decent special wall. If not…
Shadow Tag! Combined with access to Fake Tears, Flatter, Charm, Embargo, Heal Block, and Tickle, she make Wobb feel inadequate in some ways (though she's defiantly not Uber martial imo)

#579 (Embreomon)
Sub-par stats to other potential walls. (Probable use in a lower tier.)
Magic Guard helps
Lots of support and healing options. Recover, Screens, Charm, Pain Split, heal Block, and potentially useful Skill Swap

#589
NINE resistances, Poison immunity, ONE weakness.
His stats almost make him impenetrable with everything mentioned above.
Not too much in the way of a defensive level up pool, but he does have Iron Head to abuse a teammate with paralyze support or can sweep with Swords Dance practically for free
Btw, Shell Armor. Good Game.

#591(Poke-Shrooms)
Poor Stats (for OU consideration) and an unreliable ability
Shares the room with other Grass/Poision types
Has Ingrain. If Baton Pass is included somehow BP chains will have more variety at least

#593
Water/Ghost gives some handy resistances and immunities, but certain attacks will rip through that Defense
Decent support level up pool including Night Shade and Recover. Hopefully gets Boiling Water.

#594(What Luvdisc wanted to be)
High HP but not much else. Potentially outclassed by Milotic as far as pure defense goes.
New Ability, Wish, Healing Wish, and Aqua Jet give something to differentiate himself from other Bulky Water-types

#598
Sorry Bug Knight, you just got trumped (sort of). TEN resistances, Poison immunity, and two weaknesses.
Great defensive stats and a usable attack stat.
New ability (Iron Barbs) might have something to do with the Sticky Barb item since it holds them in the wild.
No Rapid Spin (Level Up). Ouch.
Has access to Curse, Gyro Ball, Ingrain, Explosion, Payback, and Power Whip

#601(METAL GEAR)
Clear Body is a saved him from Plus/Minus
Again with the resistance trumping! ELEVEN resistances and 3 Weaknesses. Mawile had this too but lacked the defenses to match.
So far, no known true defense options for our Gear friend. Being genderless also means no egg moves.
Awkwardly high speed and attack (not Sp.Attk)

#606
New ability and ok defenses. May not be suitable for OU.
Many support options. Heal Block, Calm Mind, Recover, and 4 unknown attacks

#609(Chandelier)
Amazing Sp.Attk alongside its decent defenses and good speed.
Support level up moves in Night Shade, Will-o-Wisp, Memento, and Pain Split.
Can switch to a more offensive mode with Shadow Ball and Overheat, which is all it needs really.
Shadow Tag makes him a potentially powerful revenge killer/trapper. Maybe too good for OU...

#615
Great special defensive stats but is hindered by the accursed pure Ice-typing.
You wanted that Rapid Spinner? Here you go!
Amazing support level up pool including Haze, Screens, Recover, and Confuse Ray.
Has enough Sp.Attk to be a good sweeper or at least do some damage.
Ground immunity. Does this mean spinning doesn't rid you of Spikes…?

#618(Um…)
Not exactly stelar base stats but good enough to warrant some use.
Five immunities are somewhat offset by 4 weaknesses to common attack types.
No solid support level up pool.

#623
Three immunities to abuse and three more resistances. Unfortunate weakness to several somewhat popular attack types
Might get Screens through TMs ect since it holds Light Clay
More offensive than defensive. Expect it to play somewhat like Machamp without the Fighting STAB?
Speaking of champ, No Guard for offensive pressure
no specific support options visible

#625
Nine resistances and two immunities. Not so hot on the special side of defenses but it's ok.
Torment, Assurance, and Embargo

#630
Honchcrow's polar opposite. A rare find to get a Flying-type with Special Defense like that. Decent speed too.
Not a lot of defensive options it seems. Lack of Roost will hurt him more than anything if it's not an egg move.

#632
Nine resistances ect. just like many other steel types this gen.
Very high speed means it could also make a potent sweeper or just a speedy wall.
Theoretically beats out #635

#637
Small number of resistances and weaknesses. x4 to rock might really hurt it.
Not many level up options for support/walling. Gets Whirlwind…
Possibly more dedicated to sweeping with its great Sp.Attk

#638
Nine resistances ect.
New ability
Not a lot of support level up options
Fast Defensive wall

#640
Six resistances. Many known for use of special attackers
Access to Giga Drain, but not much else trough level up.
New Ability
Fast Special wall

#648
Normal-typing removes Ghost and Fighting weaknesses
Great stats of special walling, high Special Attack too
Uturn and Teeter Dance for support

The mons in bold I think will be especially useful once the metagame is opened. If there's a notable move, ability, ect. that you know of that I missed please do tell.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Alright. I spent a bit of time going through the mew mons on Serebii with what little they have on their moves. I'll look at the missing gaps here later but these are more generalizations I came up with. Referred to by number since that's easier to look up.

Potential Defensive Threats

#494
Base 100 in all stats
New Ability
No known defensive moves on level up

#518
Like Cress… but cuter? (No Levitate)
Has Yawn, Moonlight, Calm Mind, and some unknown attacks through level up

#526
Benefits from new Sturdy
Great Defense and plenty of Attack
Gets Stealth Rock and EXPLOSION

#531
New Abilities (It their bad, this is done.)
No known healing moves through level up

#534
Decent Defense to complement its Attack
Pure Fighting = Useful resistance to Bug and Dark

#538
Like #534, but overall Bulkier with a (less useful?) ability
Has Seismic Toss and Body Slam

#555 (Daruma Mode)
Lots of weaknesses but resistances as well
Signature ability
Can wall on either spectrum but will probably be forced to specialize due to typing
Only defensive level up option is Taunt

#558
Good defensive typing with it's stats
Has Stealth Rock
Decent Attack with a level up pool to support it

#560 (Reverse Fisjal Gecko)
Shed Skin is welcome
Resistance to Rock, Ghost, and Dark. Immune to Physic
Can wall either or potentially both offenses with his typing
not a lot of defensive options from level up

#563
Ability helps in countering physical attackers who rely on their ability
Some of the best defenses this gen. Can wall either end or potentially both.
Great support level up pool including (the much needed) Haze, Night Shade, Will-o-Wisp, Grudge, and Destiny Bond

#565
Solid Rock helps its weaknesses a bit. Switching into Earthquake is no problem.
Decent support level up pool as well as Curse + Aqua Jet

#576 (Goth Lolimon)
Potentially decent special wall. If not…
Shadow Tag! Combined with access to Fake Tears, Flatter, Charm, Embargo, Heal Block, and Tickle, she make Wobb feel inadequate in some ways (though she's defiantly not Uber martial imo)

#579 (Embreomon)
Sub-par stats to other potential walls. (Probable use in a lower tier.)
Magic Guard helps
Lots of support and healing options. Recover, Screens, Charm, Pain Split, heal Block, and potentially useful Skill Swap

#589
NINE resistances, Poison immunity, ONE weakness.
His stats almost make him impenetrable with everything mentioned above.
Not too much in the way of a defensive level up pool, but he does have Iron Head to abuse a teammate with paralyze support or can sweep with Swords Dance practically for free
Btw, Shell Armor. Good Game.

#591(Poke-Shrooms)
Poor Stats (for OU consideration) and an unreliable ability
Shares the room with other Grass/Poision types
Has Ingrain. If Baton Pass is included somehow BP chains will have more variety at least

#593
Water/Ghost gives some handy resistances and immunities, but certain attacks will rip through that Defense
Decent support level up pool including Night Shade and Recover. Hopefully gets Boiling Water.

#594(What Luvdisc wanted to be)
High HP but not much else. Potentially outclassed by Milotic as far as pure defense goes.
New Ability, Wish, Healing Wish, and Aqua Jet give something to differentiate himself from other Bulky Water-types

#598
Sorry Bug Knight, you just got trumped (sort of). TEN resistances, Poison immunity, and two weaknesses.
Great defensive stats and a usable attack stat.
New ability (Iron Barbs) might have something to do with the Sticky Barb item since it holds them in the wild.
No Rapid Spin (Level Up). Ouch.
Has access to Curse, Gyro Ball, Ingrain, Explosion, Payback, and Power Whip

#601(METAL GEAR)
Clear Body is a saved him from Plus/Minus
Again with the resistance trumping! ELEVEN resistances and 3 Weaknesses. Mawile had this too but lacked the defenses to match.
So far, no known true defense options for our Gear friend. Being genderless also means no egg moves.
Awkwardly high speed and attack (not Sp.Attk)

#606
New ability and ok defenses. May not be suitable for OU.
Many support options. Heal Block, Calm Mind, Recover, and 4 unknown attacks

#609(Chandelier)
Amazing Sp.Attk alongside its decent defenses and good speed.
Support level up moves in Night Shade, Will-o-Wisp, Memento, and Pain Split.
Can switch to a more offensive mode with Shadow Ball and Overheat, which is all it needs really.
Shadow Tag makes him a potentially powerful revenge killer/trapper. Maybe too good for OU...

#615
Great special defensive stats but is hindered by the accursed pure Ice-typing.
You wanted that Rapid Spinner? Here you go!
Amazing support level up pool including Haze, Screens, Recover, and Confuse Ray.
Has enough Sp.Attk to be a good sweeper or at least do some damage.
Ground immunity. Does this mean spinning doesn't rid you of Spikes…?

#618(Um…)
Not exactly stelar base stats but good enough to warrant some use.
Five immunities are somewhat offset by 4 weaknesses to common attack types.
No solid support level up pool.

#623
Three immunities to abuse and three more resistances. Unfortunate weakness to several somewhat popular attack types
Might get Screens through TMs ect since it holds Light Clay
More offensive than defensive. Expect it to play somewhat like Machamp without the Fighting STAB?
Speaking of champ, No Guard for offensive pressure
no specific support options visible

#625
Nine resistances and two immunities. Not so hot on the special side of defenses but it's ok.
Torment, Assurance, and Embargo

#630
Honchcrow's polar opposite. A rare find to get a Flying-type with Special Defense like that. Decent speed too.
Not a lot of defensive options it seems. Lack of Roost will hurt him more than anything if it's not an egg move.

#632
Nine resistances ect. just like many other steel types this gen.
Very high speed means it could also make a potent sweeper or just a speedy wall.
Theoretically beats out #635

#637
Small number of resistances and weaknesses. x4 to rock might really hurt it.
Not many level up options for support/walling. Gets Whirlwind…
Possibly more dedicated to sweeping with its great Sp.Attk

#638
Nine resistances ect.
New ability
Not a lot of support level up options
Fast Defensive wall

#640
Six resistances. Many known for use of special attackers
Access to Giga Drain, but not much else trough level up.
New Ability
Fast Special wall

#648
Normal-typing removes Ghost and Fighting weaknesses
Great stats of special walling, high Special Attack too
Uturn and Teeter Dance for support

The mons in bold I think will be especially useful once the metagame is opened. If there's a notable move, ability, ect. that you know of that I missed please do tell.

Wow, this is really good. I agree with your analysis, but I would like to note that Shanderaa is probably best used as a SubCMer, so that a typical stall team featuring it would probably revolve around taking out its checks and luring in pokemon for it to setup on, especially taking Aiming Mark into consideration, which really hurts traditional D/P style stall and devalues Shanderaa as a spinblocker.

 

[sims796]

What about the UU defensive threats? We have a bulky Subseeder in Jaroda. Bulkier than Sceptile, yet faster than Meganium. Any word on him?

 

[cosmicexplorer]

What about the UU defensive threats? We have a bulky Subseeder in Jaroda. Bulkier than Sceptile, yet faster than Meganium. Any word on him?

Well, we don't know movepools or the metagame yet, so we can't really tell what is going to be UU and what's going to OU.

EDIT: @Upstart: We don't know if Aiming Mark hits Shedinja, so it could conceivably become a staple on stall teams, being the only pokemon to block spinning with Aiming Mark.

 

[sims796]

That makes sense. Just irks me when everyone assumes he'll suck, simply because he's not uber offensive. He's bulkier than Sceptile, Faster than Meganium, so it seems like he has his uses, despite not having super speed (i.e, a Sceptile clone).

Good chance he might be UU, but that doesn't mean he'll be a poor choice for not being straight up offensive (compettitive wise, I mean, not cosmetically).

 

[Darkflagrance]

The people who are running around shouting that stall is dead would do well to look back at pre-DP - then, like now, people were running around shouting about how Goukazaru and Gabiarasu or whatever we knew them as then were going to make stall obsolete but as we all know, stall was a very effective playstyle in Gen 4 even before Rotom-A's introduction.

There is a flaw in your thinking.

Although Stall is currently a viable strategy in OU, it is only so due to the bans of both Salamence and Garchomp, banned for their high offensive capabilities (let alone Manaphy, Lati@s, Skymin).

If this generation has moved sufficiently in the direction of offense that we cannot ban enough anti-stall factors, then stall will become obsolete, or at least change its definition.

 

[Lee]

Although Stall is currently a viable strategy in OU, it is only so due to the bans of both Salamence and Garchomp

That is complete and utter nonsense. I don't even know where to begin. If you're going to make a statement like that and try to pass it as fact then you'd better be able to provide a whole lot of reasoning.

 

[Morm]

First thing I noticed in this gen was a LOT of high HP stats. I honestly think this gen doesn't have a great deal of super powerhouses, though there were a few. It seems slow bulky dudes is the order of the gen, but we'll see how that pans out.

It is my initial opinion that with all the high HPs and some nice defensive stats floating around, this metagame may well be a little stallish at first, though the bulk tossed around is likely to counter the overwhelming power of drought/drizzle in the commonplace game. So, maybe I'm completely off my rocker. Rain is insanely powerful, after all.

 

[kyu]

The mons in bold I think will be especially useful once the metagame is opened. If there's a notable move, ability, ect. that you know of that I missed please do tell.

Nageki (538) learns a move that is the Fighting-type equivalent of Dragon Tail. I think Rankurusu (579) will be a potent Calm Mind-er, with Magic Guard and access to Recover and Psycho Shock. It's not quite as bulky as Musharna (518) but its ability and recovery move are more useful. Nattorei's ability (Iron Barbs) is apparently a clone of Rough Skin--not terrible but not terribly useful.

If Swimming Goggles work as people are anticipating, Goggles/Sleep Talk/Roar or Whirlwind might be a decent way to abuse layers.

This gen seems like it offers a lot of strength in either Attack or Special Attack, but powerful mixed attackers are few and far between. Although the numerous 130+ attackers might call for defensive specialization, physically- or specially-oriented walls should still be able to force switches. Thunder Wave is rumored to hit Ground-types, which is also be good news for stall.

Edit: Egg Moves have been posted: bulky dark-bird learns Roost, Rankurusu learns Trick (meaning it can abuse Magic Guard + Flame Orb), and Nattorei learns Spikes, Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, and Gravity!

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Yeah, I had forgotten that TWave now hits grounds. That means you can really just toss a TWave into the switch-in, without worrying about whether it's a ground type. No more Gliscor switching on my Blissey! :P This could also really help stall out with the many new 130+ attackers.

 

[Camara]

Yeah, I had forgotten that TWave now hits grounds.

Actually, it doesn't. It hits pokemon which ability grants immunity to other electric attacks.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Actually, it doesn't. It hits pokemon which ability grants immunity to other electric attacks.

Where'd you find that? I'm not trying to be rude, I just want to know which site has this information. All I've heard is rumors that it hits ground types.

 

[Blood Tears]

I totally agree with Lee about the stall. To be honest, actually, the metagame should be tried and THEN we can say if stall is available or not and, eventually, just try to "balance" a bit the metagame.

 

[Not Scicky]

Thanks alot Ravesage! I'll update the first post with that, it's an interesting read. :)

I don't think Stall is dead at all. Doryuuzu and Ononokusu are the main offensive threats that everybody seems to think are completely gamebreaking, but they're both shut down by Skarmory from what we know at this point. People are neglecting just how deadly some defensive threats are.

 

[Garagara]

What's so terrible about rankurusu? I'm totally stoked for this poke. 110/85/75 defenses, magic guard, trick, recover, screens, confuse ray, 125 base Sp.A, paired with the new psychic move that hits physically but uses your Sp.A...

Edit: Hadn't even shecked the his tms. Tm's of note; calm mind, toxic, protect, thunder, shadow ball, psychic, facade, focus blast, energy ball, explosion, twave, gyro ball, psych up, rock slide, grass knot, subsitute, flash cannon, trick room.