Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Metagame Discussion

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Pocket

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Garchomp is not worthless man. In fact, I'd say it has gotten better since last gen, since it checks new relevant Pokemon like Charizard Y, Aegislash, Mawile, and Kangaskhan, to a lesser extent. Garchomp also takes care of old threats that have still preserved its high performance, namely Tyranitar and Heatran. Even more, it Mega Evolves into a Sand beast with 170 base Attack and Sand Force. Fairy-types do not enjoy switching into its STAB Earthquake or Rock Slide / Stone Edges. The nerf on Swift Swim Rain offense and BlizzSpam teams further improved its position in XY imo.

Assault Vest Goodra actually sounds amazing. With just max HP it can even comfortably tank hits as powerful as Latios's Choice Specs Draco Meteor O.O

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 300-354 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

CRAZY n_n

Charizard Y has certainly popularized Sun teams, but other weather have also been picked up, too. Sand has a stellar Pokemon in Tyranitar, which can also activate "slow weather," as you put it, via Mega Evolution. Same story with Abomasnow, who can actually be pretty anti-meta under Trick Room, snaring Togekiss, Latios, Thundurus, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Tyranitar. Although Rain teams lack a Mega Evolution that can summon rain, they can activate "slower weather" summoning through utilizing fast Rain Dance users, such as Thundurus and Latios. Combine such weather summoning tactics with or without Politoed, and you can deploy the same powerful Rain offense as last gen that can take advantage of Ludicolo, Politoed, Manaphy, Thunder Spam, etc. We also have new buffed Pokemon like Azumarill, Mega Manectric, Mega Gyarados, Mega Blastoise, and Mega Ampharos, all of which can put Rain into deadly use.
 
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Assault Vest Goodra actually sounds amazing. With just max HP it can even comfortably tank hits as powerful as Latios's Choice Specs Draco Meteor O.O

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 300-354 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just remember, this was my idea jk I completely stole it from someone else (aka special credit to Pwnemon for his use of it in the early XY days and various VGC players for discussing/using it xD)

Just to expand on Goodra a bit, it is probably one of the most reliable "sun counters" since it is immune to Sleep Powders that Chlorophyll abusers tend to fire thanks to Sap Sipper. This gives it a very anti-meta niche in the current Metagame. Honestly tho, it hardwalls just about every special attacker that doesn't use Draco Meteor; its really bulky specially. An example set:


Goodra @ Assault Vest
Trait: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 180 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Power Whip
- Muddy Water / Earthquake

The defense EVs allow it to always survive both an unboosted Dragon Claw from Garchomp and Return from Mega Kangaskhan. Slot 1 is Dragon STAB; slot two is for hitting Steel-types and Venusaur. Power Whip is there since base 100 Attack isn't too shabby (especially if you manage to snag a Sap Sipper boost), and it provides Goodra with an option for bulky Water-types (particularly Rotom-W). Muddy Water allows it to not be set up fodder for Substitute Heatran (that thing everyone uses more or less for the sake of using it), though Earthquake is an option since it gets the 2HKO on Heatran (whereas Muddy Water 3HKOs ~85% of the time when factoring in Leftovers). Special mentions go to Rock Slide which can deal heavy damage to Charizard-Y and Feint for its utility in breaking Protect (it is hard to find room for these two options imo, though).

Overall I think AV Goodra has a ton of potential and I'd recommend those who are interested to try it out and see how it performs. I know I definitely will :)
 
always liked the idea of having a goodra on a team with rotom or gastrodon, because you can switch out your other pokemon for a boost, leaving rotom/gastrodon with effectively zero weaknesses unless something knows petal blizzard, which nothing does, and it would benefit goodra anyways

rotom can support goodra with will-o-wisp and electo web too
 
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I'd like to discuss Stealth Rock and its effects on the metagame and the Pokemon in it. Stealth Rock is often seen as a move that is used exclusively in singles, and not at all in Doubles. This is certainly not true. While the move definitely does see more use in singles and is undoubtedly more useful with just one Pokemon on the field a time, that does not mean it is a completely useless move in doubles. Many people believe that there is next to no switching in Doubles, and that Pokemon simply stay on the field until they faint the majority of the time. This isn't the case at all, unless you are playing on the low ladder. In higher level play, there are many switches in a single game, often multiple happening in one turn. Many Intimidate users in particular get switched in and out regularly to repeatedly lower the opponent's Attack. This lets the whole of your team take hits better and generally gives you a better chance of winning. The same applies to Pokemon which you really need to keep alive if your opponent has a particular weakness to that Pokemon. Switching these Pokemon out lets them survive and potentially come back in at a later stage to deal a massive blow to your opponent. All this switching makes the threat of Stealth Rock much more real. However, there are significantly less turns in the average Doubles match than in singles, so Stealth Rock isn't anywhere near as good. Stall teams are also a lot less viable, to the extent of being completely unviable, so Stealth Rock isn't so useful for wearing these teams down. Stealth Rock isn't as good in Doubles as in singles, but it is still a good move, and worth considering, even if it's not for every team.

One of the biggest reasons to use Stealth Rock is the fact that many of the tiers biggest threats are weak to it, such as Charizard (especially Mega Y), Talonflame, Volcarona, Thundurus, Togekiss and Shaymin-Sky. Having Stealth Rock up makes these Pokemon a lot less willing to switch in and out as they please, and so limits them and what they are capable of throughout the match. All these Pokemon and more are greatly crippled by Stealth Rock, as it takes up to 50% of their health simply upon switching in, opening them up to being revenge killed far more easily by something like a fast strong attacker such as Deoxys-A, or a strong priority move such as Azumarill's Aqua Jet. Talonflame in particular already kills itself very quickly thanks to the massive recoil from the two moves it spams primarily - Brave Bird and Flare Blitz. With Stealth Rock in play, Talonflame's health drops remarkably fast and severely reduces its longevity.

Many Pokemon have access to Stealth Rock, but very few are both viable and able to give up a moveslot for it. The primary reason that these Pokemon can't afford to use Stealth Rock while they can in singles is the fact that many moves are viable in Doubles that see no use whatsoever in singles. In particular, Protect is used on almost every Pokemon that doesn't run a choice item or Assault Vest as it is a brilliant move that has many uses in Doubles, and it often takes the slot that could be used for Stealth Rock. Protect is also a good thing for Stealth Rock, however. If you predict an opponent to use Protect and you simply can't hurt the other Pokemon, or the opponent uses Protect with both Pokemon, then you are given a good opportunity to set up Stealth Rock, as it is not blocked by Protect. Landorus-Therian is a good user of Stealth Rock. It only really needs Earthquake, Protect and Rock Slide/Stone Edge - the last slot is pretty much up to preference or what your team appreciates the most. Stealth Rock is a perfectly viable choice for this last move, for the reasons I have already listed. Lando-T is also often bulky enough to take whatever hit it wants, especially with the assistance of Intimidate. Terrakion is also a good candidate for using Stealth Rock. It generally runs Close Combat, Rock slide and Protect, with something like Substitute, Earthquake or Quick Attack (feel like I'm missing something here but w/e) as a filler move. Stealth Rock is a good choice for this last slot if your team appreciates the support. Terrakion outspeeds many popular Pokemon, so can get up Stealth Rock reliably and without fail. Also, many Pokemon choose to Protect against Terrakion, such as Heatran fearing the Close Combat, which creates good opportunities to set up Stealth Rock. Other Pokemon that can fit Stealth Rock onto their sets depending on the team are Tyranitar and Garchomp. Heatran can also run it if you don't like Substitute, as many users don't (*cough*kom*cough*).

Pokemon that appreciate the support and residual damage that Stealth Rock provides include Choice Scarf Pokemon looking to revenge kill opponents, such as Gardevoir, Landorus-Therian, Genesect, and Kyurem-Black. These Pokemon like to have opponents worn down, even just slightly, as they often don't have as much power as other Pokemon thanks to their item being used to boost their Speed, and not their offensive power. Also, Pokemon that use powerful spread moves as their primary way to attack like the hazards, as their attacks don't do as much damage as single target moves because of the 0.75x power decrease on spread moves. Such Pokemon include Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, and strong Ground-types such as Excadrill, Garchomp, and Mamowsine. Landorus-Therian and Gardevoir also both fit into this category, so it is clear that hazards are very useful for both these Pokemon.

Some Pokemon are worse in Doubles than singles simply because of the general lack of hazards. Magic Guard Pokemon, such as Alakazam and Clefable, are immune to hazards as they switch in as well as indirect damage in general which includes weather and status, which makes them great for offense and stall respectively, because of their vastly different stat distributions. In Doubles, however, the presence of hazards is significantly less, so the usefulness of Magic Guard, and therefore the usefulness of the Pokemon themselves drops dramatically. Pokemon with Magic Bounce are also made worse because of the lack of hazards, so Pokemon like Espeon and Xatu are relegated to the ranks of bad Pokemon. Magic Bounce is extremely useful for keeping hazards away in singles, but not so much in doubles. There is also generally less non attacking moves such as Toxic, so Magic Bounce Pokemon just don't thrive in Doubles.

As you can see, Stealth Rock and other hazards have a significant effect on some Pokemons viability, and the popularity of Pokemon such as Charizard and Talonflame has a significant effect on Stealth Rock's viability. What are your experiences with Stealth Rock, and have you ever tried using either Spikes or Toxic Spikes? What were the results?
 

Laga

Forever Grande
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Alright time to counter argue this Stealth Rock hype.

Stealth Rock is undoubtedly not useless in Doubles, and especially when you see a lot of switching at a higher level of play. This does mean that Stealth Rock looks amazing on paper, but it has a glaringly huge demerit. The turn you spend on using Stealth Rock is much much much harder to find than it is in Singles.

To find this one great turn setup before putting up your rocks, you need to outplay your opponent greatly for at least one turn or receive a godly lead matchup. I can understand the use of Stealth Rock turn one if 1) your Pokemon has room for it, which it probably doesn't, 2) your opponent has mons weak to it and 3) you have godly matchup - basically forcing a switch IN WHICH CASE it is probably still better to go for a damaging move. Mid-game rocks are completely useless, so playing your opponent into a tough situation turn 4 shouldn't encourage you to set up rocks on the switch.

Basically, Stealth Rock is a really really situational move only really to be used if you have offensive mons that want to OHKO togekiss / zard / bulky thund, and you are probably still just better off going for a double-target one turn instead of spending a valuable momentum-packed turn setting up rocks and giving your opponent a completely free turn in the process.

edit: T-Spikes are really just not good in a meta packed with a Steel-type or 2 per team alongside like 2-4 floaters per team. Sorry to break it to you all, but hazards really just are not that good in Doubles.

edit 2: btw Landorus-t has uturn / imprison for 4th slot and terrakion has taunt / quick guard which are basically reasons themselves to use terrakion.
 
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just @ the last point: that u-turn/imprison on landog is a filler move that can be very useful. Stealth rock can also be useful depending on your team, so it really depends on your other pokemon what you want to put there. Also knew I'd forgotten stuff for terrakion :x

I realise now that my post put a much more positive spin on sr than I originally intended, my bad. I completely agree with almost everything you said. Except that I think that it sometimes is worth setting up mid game. If both teams still have a decent amount of Pokemon left (4-6), some of which of your opponents really don't like stealth rock, AND you're in a favourable position so that you have a free turn to set them up, then it may be worth it, though once you get past turn 6 or so that worth declines significantly.
 
I love running SR on Sash Landorus-T. Since Landorus is usually out first in most games, it's very easy to find the time to send out Rocks if needed. And with Kiss/Thundy/Zard are super popular atm, it's easy to get an edge. Another good setter would be TTar, but I prefer running coverage over SR.
 

Braverius

snowls
is a Past SPL Champion
I really, really do not want to take the time to totally break down why stealth rocks are for the most part horrible in doubles, even with 6v6. I will give three very good reasons that should be pretty much enough:
  • Inconsistent damage. It honestly doesn't really give you a lot of damage to begin with, but it's super inconsistent if it does give any damage. Better to just land a heavy-hitting attack on something you actually want to hit.
  • It can lose you leverage in a battle if used early, and is useless later on. You need to be able to really start strong beginning on turn one, and if you spend a turn setting up rocks, the opponent gets a chance to set up something a lot more potent than rocks - or take out a Pokemon of yours as you sit around.
  • It wastes a move slot. Honestly, on almost any Pokemon that you can bring up that gets SR, there's a better move that can be used over it.

I didn't realize Laga posted some good stuff before I wrote this up, but after reading his post, I agree with him almost entirely. I saw three people supporting them for some reason and figured that this should probably be doused as quickly as possible.

This is another one of those topics that I would pretty much require battle videos and a list of a team that uses it to even allow a talk to start on. Honestly looks like the biggest theory nugget ever that will never prosper in high-level play. Never have seen it work, never have gotten it to work, and see no reason to use it.
 
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I really, really do not want to take the time to totally break down why stealth rocks are for the most part horrible in doubles, even with 6v6. I will give three very good reasons that should be pretty much enough:
  • Inconsistent damage. It honestly doesn't really give you a lot of damage to begin with, but it's super inconsistent if it does give any damage. Better to just land a heavy-hitting attack on something you actually want to hit.
  • It can lose you leverage in a battle if used early, and is useless later on. You need to be able to really start strong beginning on turn one, and if you spend a turn setting up rocks, the opponent gets a chance to set up something a lot more potent than rocks - or take out a Pokemon of yours as you sit around.
  • It wastes a move slot. Honestly, on almost any Pokemon that you can bring up that gets SR, there's a better move that can be used over it.

I didn't realize Laga posted some good stuff before I wrote this up, but after reading his post, I agree with him almost entirely. I saw three people supporting them for some reason (one of them being Blank again, unsurprisingly...) and figured that this should probably be doused as quickly as possible.

This is another one of those topics that I would pretty much require battle videos and a list of a team that uses it to even allow a talk to start on. Honestly looks like the biggest theory nugget ever that will never prosper in high-level play. Never have seen it work, never have gotten it to work, and see no reason to use it.
I don't believe stealth rocks are super great or something you should slap on any old team against any battler by any means. However, in my limited experience with it, it has proven extremely effective in bulky offense vs bulky offense wars with a good opponent.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoubles-79294612
In this replay, I played somewhat poorly plus I didn't even set up rocks until turn 12. However, the rocks basically won me the game by themselves.
Now you have seen it work and Ablast's team was not even SR weak.
SR isn't pointless or bad, but yes it is something you only use knowing the huge opportunity cost of a moveslot+turn and have built a team+are willing to run a playstyle that will get you the most bang for your buck.

Also, I have a tiny bit of experience with t spikes, but mostly have seen Haruno use it dozens of times to great effect. It is extremely situational and its use is basically to pull a bit of pressure off of super bulky tanks such as Cresselia/M-Venusaur and put that pressure on the opponent. Again, you have to understand the opportunity cost and the low return on investment(usually there will be 1-2 grounded non-steels per team). But it racks up chip dmg for you while you can focus on keeping a bulky team alive. That chip dmg adds up quickly even on only 2 Pokemon if your team consists of things that are hard to kill such as Mega Venu, Sub Tran and CM Cress. Again, it is situational, not great by any means, but surprisingly effective in those certain situations.

I agree with a lot of things you and Laga said and feel it is crucial to point out that effective use of hazards does not disregard those points. Keeping them in mind allows you to know when, how and mostly if you should use them, but they are definitely still reasonable options in some situations.
 

Laga

Forever Grande
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
However, the rocks basically won me the game by themselves.
Can you please explain how the rocks "basically won you the game by themselves"?

I really just do not see any Pokemon on Arcticblast's team that got taken out only due to Stealth Rocks being set up...

Edit: I am completely serious; Thundurus isn't a pivot and Arcticblast was not necessarily playing genesect correctly.
 
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Can you please explain how the rocks "basically won you the game by themselves"?

I really just do not see any Pokemon on Arcticblast's team that got taken out only due to Stealth Rocks being set up...
Are you serious? The rocks did 175% dmg, left him unable to swap out -1 attackers or low hp fodder without consequence and basically invalidated Thundurus as a pivot while greatly limiting Genesect.
175% is sooooo huge in high level play. That means that Landog nearly went 2 for 1 even if you don't factor in everything Landog actually did.
And had I risked against the hp ice(that I think he said after the match that he didn't even run) turn 1 or 2, then rocks would have had 11 turns more of impact. Some battles don't even last 11 turns so that is significant lol.
 
Do not try to undermine my skill level just because I like using unconventional mons and strategies Braverius
BoTW : Blank vs. Braverius. And yes, an absolutely glorious post.

Anyways about stealth rocks.

  • Inconsistent damage. It honestly doesn't really give you a lot of damage to begin with, but it's super inconsistent if it does give any damage. Better to just land a heavy-hitting attack on something you actually want to hit.
  • It can lose you leverage in a battle if used early, and is useless later on. You need to be able to really start strong beginning on turn one, and if you spend a turn setting up rocks, the opponent gets a chance to set up something a lot more potent than rocks - or take out a Pokemon of yours as you sit around.
  • It wastes a move slot. Honestly, on almost any Pokemon that you can bring up that gets SR, there's a better move that can be used over it.
I'm going to make direct references to the following sets:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock

Terrakion @ Focus Sash
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Quick Guard
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock
These are some of the better sets for stealth rock imo.


Inconsistent Damage.
Absolutely. It consistently gives damage, to be sure, but the amount is extremely varied. But compare that to Landoge and Terrakion's other potential moves :

on Terrakion
Quick Guard- Inconsistent Usability. Excellent against things like fake out or talonflame, and it often comes into play in said situations and other situations, but it cant always be relied on to help a team.
Taunt- Again, inconsistent usability. Even though it comes in handy quite often, it is inconsistent.
Protect- Perhaps the biggest argument for not using SR or Terra-but with focus sash and smart switching this can be mitigated

on Landoge
Imprison - I haven't had the chance to try this out so I can't attest to it, but it seems to me like it would be great in certain situations and not useful at all in others.
U-turn - Certainly a good move, but I most often find myself using it against cress and not much else. Even then I almost always have better ways for dealing with cress. I often put stone edge over this just to deal with wide guard (the same reason I put stone edge on terra).

My point is that Stealth rock functions just as well as these other moves in that it is practically useless in some situations and excellent in others (If you see a team with talon, charY, Volc or any of the flying types that fill the tier). Sure, while laddering it might be useless more often than not (People of the ladder... please switch) but in high level play I fail to see how any of the other moves I mentioned are necessarily better than SR. It's a matter of personal preference and teambuilding.

It can lose you leverage in a battle if used early, and is useless later on.
I won't argue that more often than not (far more often than not) it is useless later on. But I will contend that it doesn't by any stretch of the imagination lose you leverage if you play it well. It's a matter of balancing the leverage you lose against the leverage you gain-much as choosing targets or switching is. If you gain a lot of leverage (i.e. There is a specific mon or a couple of mons that are weak to it which you know you will have problems dealing with) at the expense of losing some immediate damage or leverage you are playing the game well.

It wastes a move slot.
Same arguments as I used for the first point.

Dont get me wrong Braverius, oftentimes you are right in what you say-SR can be a wasted moveslot and/or a wasted turn. But if you teambuild well and play well, the move often overcomes its shortcomings and greatly benefit a team.

EDIT: That awkward moment when you notice your grammatical errors and hope no one else did
 
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Pocket

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Laga and Braverius pointed out valid reasons for why Stealth Rock is not as risk-free or costless move in Doubles compared to singles, but I especially think Zach downplayed the SR effect a lot. It's by no means a "horrible" move in Doubles, and it is certainly worth a moveslot, depending on the team.

It deals consistent damage. Probably moreso than straight-up attacking with your Lando-T, etc who may more than likely just be met up with some floaters or Intimidate users that would nerf its attacks. Switching Lando-T out to a Pokemon that can handle its check can always work, but there are risks involved in switching out, whereas setting up Rocks as the opponent switches in to their Lando-T check is a relatively safe maneuver. Pokemon like Landorus-T can easily create free turns to set up rocks. Landorus-T has a partner, too, so it's not like setting up Rocks is the only thing that's happening, either.

Not to mention SR shuts down so many common Pokemon in Doubles, as Lasagne listed out. Charizard, Talonflame, Thundurus(-T), Togekiss, Abomasnow, Gyarados, Weavile, Shaymin-S, Deoxys-A, and Kyurem(-B) are all dangerous threats that hate losing quarter or more of its health and/or lose its Focus Sash. Rain teams particularly appreciate Rocks to put a timer on how many times Charizard can summon sun.

In a spl match between kingofmars and Randy, for instance, SR played quite an important role. It allowed Randy's Landorus-T to still be useful after being burned (outside of Intimidate), and it made good use of turn 3 while kom played defensively. Thanks to SR, kom's Togekiss consumed its Sitrus Berry a move earlier, and was essentially relegated as fodder when it came out the second time. SR was also important for putting Gengar into a burned Bisharp's Sucker Punch KO range. Not the best game to display SR's utility, since Randy ended up losing, but SR has certainly offered him a real chance of winning after some serious setbacks / poor team match-up.
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
on Landoge
U-turn - Certainly a good move, but I most often find myself using it against cress and not much else. Even then I almost always have better ways for dealing with cress. I often put stone edge over this just to deal with wide guard (the same reason I put stone edge on terra).
Quick Guard- Inconsistent Usability. Excellent against things like fake out or talonflame, and it often comes into play in said situations and other situations, but it cant always be relied on to help a team.
are you kidding me right now? U-turn on Landorus is such a classic combination, it's like milk and cookies or penis and vagina. U-turn is like all my landorus does until my opponent's floaters have been cleared out (unless i need to snipe something with stone edge or superpower) because the ability to intimidate, force a predictable switch, and then pivot to a counter while also doing damage is basically jesus personified. If you're running stealth rock over u-turn on landorus then you probably need to get checked for brain trauma.

Similarly, Quick Guard on something weak to bullet punch and mach punch, faster than all fake out users, and offensively threatening to talonflame is purely awesome. i don't see how you can possibly diss this move, it's certainly more useful than SR.

I've tried stealth rock on one team ever, and I ended up dropping it, because it's just damn impossible to set. And when I've played against it, it underwhelms. For example, both Joim and jake brought rocks to their spl battle...only one of them ended up taking the time to set it. It is just very rarely worth it, i'd rather run something else. Going off of Gyarad0s's sets, landorus should always run four of six of protect / rock slide / superpower / stone edge / eq before running SR, and terrak should always run four of six of rock slide / stone edge / quick guard / protect / taunt / close combat, so neither really has room for SR.

As for toxic spikes: lol no. there are way too many pokemon immune to it (i have entire TEAMS immune to it) and those that aren't you'd basically always rather sleep, paralyze, or burn. it's terrible.
 
are you kidding me right now? U-turn on Landorus is such a classic combination, it's like milk and cookies or penis and vagina. U-turn is like all my landorus does until my opponent's floaters have been cleared out (unless i need to snipe something with stone edge or superpower) because the ability to intimidate, force a predictable switch, and then pivot to a counter while also doing damage is basically jesus personified. If you're running stealth rock over u-turn on landorus then you probably need to get checked for brain trauma.
So I got my brain checked for trauma. I blabbed a bit about some dude named Pwnemon and stealth rocks--long story short the doctors were concerned enough to check, but nothing was wrong. *PHEW*

Look Pwnemon : I'm sorry if I downplayed the competition SR faces on Landorus or Terrakion (though my Terrakion set runs quick guard lol). I don't deny that the competition is there, but SR is something that shouldn't be thrown out the window during teambuilding. This is especially so on bulky teams (as jake pointed out) or teams that are weak to mons which are weak to SR. It lets a mon remain useful after fainting/being status'd and is certainly something worth considering.

EDIT::: I was being a bit of a dick and even though it was ridiculously funny from my standpoint I shouldn't have posted it. Sorry Braverius and Pwnemon .Going to stop posting in this thread... it doesn't appear to be working out for me
 
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Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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classic combination, like penis and vagina
bitch, please
As for toxic spikes: lol no. there are way too many pokemon immune to it (i have entire TEAMS immune to it) and those that aren't you'd basically always rather sleep, paralyze, or burn. it's terrible.
Yeah, toxic spikes is serious trash. Here's a list of good Dubs mons that just don't give a shit (ie are Flying/Steel/Poison/Levitating):

Cresselia, Heatran, Charizard, Aegislash, Excadrill, Genesect, Gyarados, Latios, Rotom-W, Scizor, Venusaur, Talonflame, Landorus(-T), Mawile, Thundurus(-T), Togekiss, Bisharp, Amoonguss, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Hydreigon, Jirachi, Salamence, Shaymin-S, Tornadus(-T), Latias, Metagross, Gengar, Klefki, and Lucario. Conkeldurr gets an honorable mention too for Guts.

And those are just things in S, A, and B ranks... Moreover, many things you could get with Toxic Spikes like Kanga and Tyranitar and Scrafty, well most of them you'd rather Burn anyway.
 

Braverius

snowls
is a Past SPL Champion
this is like a baby handing me candy, i don't even have to try to take it

I was about to appreciate your effort in trying to make a case for this, but you had to go be a total dickhat afterward and make me doubt the honesty of everything you wrote.

So I got my brain checked for trauma. I blabbed a bit about some dude named Pwnemon and psychological abuse and stealth rocks--long story short the doctors were concerned enough to check, but nothing was wrong. *PHEW*
WOW SO FUNNY AND PRODUCTIVE

Anyways, back to Landoge.
Landorus-T is a cat...

SR and Landorus is such an awesome combination. It's like milk and cookies or penis and vagina.


Stealth Rock is like all my Landorus does until my opponent's floaters have been cleared out (because after I get rocks up, I like to predict rapid spin or really just rub it in their face that I got rocks up) because the ability to intimidate, force a predictable switch, and then use a move that will always deal some amount of damage (sometimes a lot), discourage switching, and break sashes is basically jesus personified.
I like to predict rapid spin
I've heard this is a really good idea, have you been seeing this a lot on the ladder? I remember something sort of like this when I saw an Air Balloon Staraptor, if I had predicted that I might have sealed my win a bit more securely.

really just rub it in their face that I got rocks
Yeah, if you emotionally destroy your opponent, they might go on tilt and you'll get a free win
also lol at your anecdote accidentally showing that getting rocks up successfully is not easy at all

because the ability to intimidate, force a predictable switch, and then use a move that will always deal some amount of damage (sometimes a lot), discourage switching, and break sashes is basically jesus personified.
Or you could use more precise moves and learn how to get in a good situation like any good player should know. Mind you, stealth rocks almost never puts you in a good situation, especially early on. You have to bank on your opponent having Pokemon that are weakened by it immensely to reap any benefits from the poor position you put yourself in early game.


(my Terrakion set runs quick guard lol)

lol wow innovative lol

I don't deny that the competition is there, but SR is something that shouldn't be thrown out the window during teambuilding. This is especially so on bulky teams (as jake pointed out) or teams that are weak to mons which are weak to SR. It lets a mon remain useful after fainting/being status'd and is certainly something worth considering.
(as jake pointed out)
did his intuition and ability to play better in faster matches help him reach this verdict?

It lets a mon remain useful after fainting/being status'd
Actually serious response: you're examining the battle via one Pokemon's production rather than examining situations and game phases. I think in the short-term and in the poorly-painted big picture this makes sense, but in the real big picture and when thinking of the game as more than just turn-to-turn play, this isn't a very good move. I'm not saying it's TOTALLY useless, but to discuss it and call it anything more than "barely viable" would be huge oversight.


I'll gladly contribute toward progressive discussion when it starts actually moving in the right direction. If you want to continue to talk about SR seriously, I will bring up things like Chansey and Shuckle and Air Balloon Staraptor and ladder with it and write a ten paragraph report to tell all of you how good it is.

Do not make me do that.
 

Audiosurfer

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ok guys actually though Gyarad0s was kidding w/ the way he phrased that to poke fun at Pwnemon, so let's not make this bigger than it needs to be. Gonna put somethin youngjake said here that was deleted since I feel it was p. accurate:
It is obvious that Gyarad0s was joking about rapid spin because he says "I use Stealth Rocks again just in case they Rapid Spin or just because I want to rub it in their face that I got rocks up."
Yea. I'm sure he literally uses rocks twice to rub it in for serious battles and it is not a joke -_-
Also the post is literally a direct parody of Pwnemon's post and is perfect satire.
Seriously...?

so yeah let's chill out and go back to discussing mons
 
My opinion about stealth rocks is that the only time it is a good to put on a team is if your team is increadably weak to a certian super common threat *cough charizard-y *cough. its extremely situational but it can provide a nice patch.
 

BLOOD TOTEM

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My opinion about stealth rocks is that the only time it is a good to put on a team is if your team is increadably weak to a certian super common threat *cough charizard-y *cough. its extremely situational but it can provide a nice patch.
If you're that weak to Zard Y then it's already swept you, just at 50 percent health rather than 100. Whilst I agree that rocks just about manage to hold a spot in the doubles metagame they are not something I would try to use in most games, especially not straight off the bat to help handle certain threats.
I think the only time I'd be willing to use rocks is when an opposing Pokemon has switched out and switching back in will KO. Even then I'll only do it if it's stacking an ability such as Intimidate or has utility moves like Fake Out or if it poses a big threat to the remaining portion of my team. Obviously this isn't going to occur hugely often and so the best port of call is to stick on an extra coverage or utility move on your Pokemon. EVERY LANDO SHOULD RUN EXPLOSION NOT ROCKS, not even kidding Explosion Lando is like, momentum incarnate.

tl;dr rocks are generally outclassed
 
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Metal Sonic

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#first post in #Doubles ^_^

I agree with the camp that Rocks are generally outclassed. They are not able to have as much utility as they would have in Singles, especially with the shorter-turn games and a generally less occurrence of switching around. This is also why strategies like Trick Room and Tailwind are great in Doubles: the shorter turn games mean that these field effects have a massive advantage due to their relativity.

True, Stealth Rock DOES have its uses, and it DOES remain a considerable option when teambuilding, but it is weaker in the Doubles metagame for mostly the same reasons why Trick Room and Tailwind are popular.

There are more reliable options to take down a Mega-Charizard Y, and they can fit well onto the team and combat other threats unlike the haphazardly placed Stealth Rock which mean a waste of a precious turn(turns are very important in Doubles!) and a moveslot. For example, Mega Kanghaskhan with Return can OHKO Megazard. Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch can deal massive blow. Talonflame's Brave Bird, etc all can fit well on teams and check other pokemon, and you don't have to resort to Stealth Rocks with such little utility in the metagame to defeat certain checks. Oh, by the way, people rarely run Focus Sash here(except on the odd Deoxys or Landorus)



___

I'm not sure if this is the right thread or I'm missing something, but this is Doubles Suspect Stage, right?

I'd like for Mega Kanga to be suspected: It can OHKO more than 90% of the metagame after +2 Power Up Punch, which it can easily set up (with two targets for choosing!) and Follow Me users/Rage Powder users only help to further increase setup opportunities. Its Bulk also allows it to survive attacks such as Talonflame's Brave Bird, and with access to Sucker Punch it can kill other common priority users or faster opponents like Deoxys-A or Mega Gengar, while not to mention its partner can take care of the checks for Mega Kanghaskhan. Mega Kanga can sweep whole teams by itself, a minimum of 7 turns are needed for Mega Kanga to win a game hypothetically 1 vs 6, and now add on teammates and partners and Mega Kanga becomes a beast. Intimidate isn't too effective as Mega Kanga can simply boost again while dealing damage, while Burns can be nullified by Follow Me partners or Safeguard.
 
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One poke that sr is good on (and the only poke) is tyranitar, mega or not. Ttar only really needs rock slide, crunch and protect as it will not find many opportunities to use fire blast or low kick. Scizor outspeeds and uses bug bite or bullet punch, genesect u turns out, heatran subs etc. Dragon dance is also quite situational and has trouble in a meta full of mawiles, lando-t and rotom w, so really, stealth rocks are quite good on ttar. Not to mention the help they provide in destroying mega zard y and chipping away at politoed.
 
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