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RU Theorymonning
- Thread starter mkizzy
- Start date
dwarfstar
mindless philosopher
I was under the impression that was how it worked as well. What Sceptile REALLY needs from a competitive perspective is Tinted Lens, but that wouldn't make any flavor-sense...
Anyway, theorymonning.
On the question of Cryogonal with Spikes: As annoying as it sounds, this actually might not be much of an issue. Being able to spin and set up hazards is a great asset to any Pokemon, but I don't think Cryogonal could take advantage of it well. Offensive sets don't have room for Spikes, and the defensive set will rarely be able to do its job more than once (and often won't be able to set up more than one layer of Spikes at a time) because its low Defense means physical attacks will destroy it. I see the use of Kabutops + SR user combinations rising to combat Spiritomb, with rocks forcing any Cryogonal that stays in the choice of spinning or setting up another layer of Spikes before Kabutops kills it with Waterfall (Recover will just leave it open to a Waterfall + Aqua Jet combo, and this is just assuming the Kabutops player is afraid of a Stone Edge miss).
Anyway, theorymonning.
On the question of Cryogonal with Spikes: As annoying as it sounds, this actually might not be much of an issue. Being able to spin and set up hazards is a great asset to any Pokemon, but I don't think Cryogonal could take advantage of it well. Offensive sets don't have room for Spikes, and the defensive set will rarely be able to do its job more than once (and often won't be able to set up more than one layer of Spikes at a time) because its low Defense means physical attacks will destroy it. I see the use of Kabutops + SR user combinations rising to combat Spiritomb, with rocks forcing any Cryogonal that stays in the choice of spinning or setting up another layer of Spikes before Kabutops kills it with Waterfall (Recover will just leave it open to a Waterfall + Aqua Jet combo, and this is just assuming the Kabutops player is afraid of a Stone Edge miss).
**What if scyther got Mach punch**
Ok I know this probably won't ever happen since we'll he doesn't have fists but if he did how do you think it would affect the metagame scyther not having to Choose/run quick attack or brick break but could run both and get the technician boost not only that but he could then free up a slot for another stab attack or a recovery move like roost
Ok I know this probably won't ever happen since we'll he doesn't have fists but if he did how do you think it would affect the metagame scyther not having to Choose/run quick attack or brick break but could run both and get the technician boost not only that but he could then free up a slot for another stab attack or a recovery move like roost
Spikes Cryogonal: Yeah, it probably wouldn't change too much. Having hazards and spinning, while nice, doesn't make you a good Pokemon. Just look at Sandslash. Granted, Cryo is a better spinner as is, and Spikes is much rarer, so he would be a little bit better, and it would likely find use, but nothing amazing. RU still has some great Spikers in Qwilfish, Crustle, and Accelgor, and access to solid NU spikers like Scolipede and Roselia. Roselia is the other specially defensive spiker that comes to mind, having more bulk on both sides than the standard spinner set, and a better defensive typing giving it much more resists. Cryogonal would probably find use on Hail teams and teams that want a Spiker but need a spinner that isn't Kabutops.
However, tbh Spikes would fit much better flavor-wise on Sandslash, so...
What if Sandslash got Spikes? From the BW2 Pokedex entry for Sandslash: "It rolls up and attacks foes with its spikes." From Ruby: "Once a year, the old spikes fall out, to be replaced with new spikes that grow out from beneath the old ones." Everything seems to point to Sandslash being able to use Spikes, but strangely he doesn't get it. I still see a lot of competition from Crustle as a hazard setter, since with Sturdy and Custap Berry he can almost guarantee SR and 1 layer of Spikes. He also possesses superior defenses to Sandslash and can boost both his attack and speed with Shell Smash as opposed to just attack. So Slash's only real niche would be Rapid Spin, which still isn't that great. Since Sandslash is an RU Pokemon who could use a buff, I feel the need to suggest something for him, and Spikes is the addition I see fitting the most flavor-wise.
However, tbh Spikes would fit much better flavor-wise on Sandslash, so...
What if Sandslash got Spikes? From the BW2 Pokedex entry for Sandslash: "It rolls up and attacks foes with its spikes." From Ruby: "Once a year, the old spikes fall out, to be replaced with new spikes that grow out from beneath the old ones." Everything seems to point to Sandslash being able to use Spikes, but strangely he doesn't get it. I still see a lot of competition from Crustle as a hazard setter, since with Sturdy and Custap Berry he can almost guarantee SR and 1 layer of Spikes. He also possesses superior defenses to Sandslash and can boost both his attack and speed with Shell Smash as opposed to just attack. So Slash's only real niche would be Rapid Spin, which still isn't that great. Since Sandslash is an RU Pokemon who could use a buff, I feel the need to suggest something for him, and Spikes is the addition I see fitting the most flavor-wise.
What if Medicham learned U-turn?
U-turn medicham has the potential to be pretty interesting imo, most of the time Medicham is simply using Hi Jump Kick or Psycho Cut regardless, so the loss of a moveslot probably wouldn't be that hurtful. Anyways, Because of Medicham's huge Attack stat with Pure Power and the massive base power of Hi Jump Kick, its sure to cause a large amount of switches, making it a perfect abuser of U-turn. Medicham could easily come in after a KO or on a weakened enemy, force them out, and use a decently powerful U-turn to escape its counters, get the switch advantage, and rack up entry hazards damage. U-turn medicham would be especially cool because many of the Pokemon that check Medicham (such as Spiritomb or Slowking or Uxie, although the latter two can't take repeated hits from Choice Band) are somewhat vulnerable to U-turn, with Slowking and Uxie being weak to it and Spiritomb not resisting it like other Ghost-types. An added bonus of being able to U-turn like this is that Medicham could go into a pursuit user such as Spiritomb, Absol, or Escavalier as they switch into say Slowking, trapping and eliminating them and opening up Medicham to clean up with a Scarf Hi Jump Kick (Think U-turn Landorus-I in OU, except Medicham wouldn't be able to switch moves without giving up some speed). Furthermore, Medicham even resists Stealth Rock, meaning it wouldn't get worn down as much over time because of repeated switching due to U-turn spam. So, what do you think of U-turn Medicham? how threatening would it be? Do you think it would change up the metagame in any particular way?
U-turn medicham has the potential to be pretty interesting imo, most of the time Medicham is simply using Hi Jump Kick or Psycho Cut regardless, so the loss of a moveslot probably wouldn't be that hurtful. Anyways, Because of Medicham's huge Attack stat with Pure Power and the massive base power of Hi Jump Kick, its sure to cause a large amount of switches, making it a perfect abuser of U-turn. Medicham could easily come in after a KO or on a weakened enemy, force them out, and use a decently powerful U-turn to escape its counters, get the switch advantage, and rack up entry hazards damage. U-turn medicham would be especially cool because many of the Pokemon that check Medicham (such as Spiritomb or Slowking or Uxie, although the latter two can't take repeated hits from Choice Band) are somewhat vulnerable to U-turn, with Slowking and Uxie being weak to it and Spiritomb not resisting it like other Ghost-types. An added bonus of being able to U-turn like this is that Medicham could go into a pursuit user such as Spiritomb, Absol, or Escavalier as they switch into say Slowking, trapping and eliminating them and opening up Medicham to clean up with a Scarf Hi Jump Kick (Think U-turn Landorus-I in OU, except Medicham wouldn't be able to switch moves without giving up some speed). Furthermore, Medicham even resists Stealth Rock, meaning it wouldn't get worn down as much over time because of repeated switching due to U-turn spam. So, what do you think of U-turn Medicham? how threatening would it be? Do you think it would change up the metagame in any particular way?
Spikes Sandslash: Oddly enough, I think this would end up in a similar fashion as Spikes Cryogonal, only marginally better since Sandslash can actually stand up to Pursuit. Otherwise, you're looking at stiff competition from not just Crustle, but also Omastar as a more offensive user of SR+Spikes. The former has Sturdy to ensure at least SR+1 layer of Spikes while the latter can often achieve the same thing due to the sheer threat of its Shell Smash set.
U-turn Medicham: Well, it's obvious Medicham needs something over Gallade other than Pure Power. With Gallade having all the coverage in the world, this would pretty much be Medicham's best shot at giving Gallade stiffer competition as the best Fighting-type in RU. U-turn would not only let Medicham escape from checks and counters, but it would also give it some way to deter Psychic-types from coming in. A well timed U-turn on an incoming Psychic- or Ghost-type can make a Pursuit user's life so much easier (which in turn, gives Medicham an easier time as well, so it's a win-win) Even Spiritomb would be vulnerable to this due to its vulnerability to all entry hazards and lack of reliable recovery outside of RestTalk. I don't think it would be totally game-changing, but it would certainly make the core of Medicham+Pursuit user much more common.
U-turn Medicham: Well, it's obvious Medicham needs something over Gallade other than Pure Power. With Gallade having all the coverage in the world, this would pretty much be Medicham's best shot at giving Gallade stiffer competition as the best Fighting-type in RU. U-turn would not only let Medicham escape from checks and counters, but it would also give it some way to deter Psychic-types from coming in. A well timed U-turn on an incoming Psychic- or Ghost-type can make a Pursuit user's life so much easier (which in turn, gives Medicham an easier time as well, so it's a win-win) Even Spiritomb would be vulnerable to this due to its vulnerability to all entry hazards and lack of reliable recovery outside of RestTalk. I don't think it would be totally game-changing, but it would certainly make the core of Medicham+Pursuit user much more common.
Spikes Sandslash: Not much would change for Sandslash, since now you must decide between Stealth Rocks, Rapid Spin, Toxic, Spikes, and Earthquake. He also lacks Sturdy which Crustle and Omastar have, allowing them to get hazards up more reliably. If you decide to not use Toxic, Sandslash is now set-up bait. This coupled with the fact Sandslash is still being run over by almost everything in the metagame, means not much would happen to him.
U-Turn Medicham: Now Medicham no longer has to fear ghost types, and it finally has an advantage over Gallade and other fighting types with its ability to get momentum, making it easier to remove its counters. It also makes it's non-ghost counters (Psychic Types) much more afraid since they'll be getting hit by an SE U-turn. I think this would make Medicham an S Rank threat and the top fighting type of RU, despite its still pitiful bulk.
Fire Blast/Flamethrower Mesprit: Mesprit now has a way to plow through steel types, and gets amazing coverage with Fire/Electric/Ice. This could make its CM Set more popular since it hits nearly everything at the top of RU for SE Damage. It also makes you not have to use Hidden Power if you want fire coverage. You could even opt for a viable LO + 4 attacks set with Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Psychic. My justification for Mesprit getting the move is the fact that its supposed to be the middle man of the three, so it should have the widest movepool, consisting of moves from both Uxie and Azelf's movepool. Overall, I can see Mesprit becoming used more, and possible find itself in the top 10, if it isn't already, RU Pokemon atm with access to Fire Blast or Flamethrower.
U-Turn Medicham: Now Medicham no longer has to fear ghost types, and it finally has an advantage over Gallade and other fighting types with its ability to get momentum, making it easier to remove its counters. It also makes it's non-ghost counters (Psychic Types) much more afraid since they'll be getting hit by an SE U-turn. I think this would make Medicham an S Rank threat and the top fighting type of RU, despite its still pitiful bulk.
Fire Blast/Flamethrower Mesprit: Mesprit now has a way to plow through steel types, and gets amazing coverage with Fire/Electric/Ice. This could make its CM Set more popular since it hits nearly everything at the top of RU for SE Damage. It also makes you not have to use Hidden Power if you want fire coverage. You could even opt for a viable LO + 4 attacks set with Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Psychic. My justification for Mesprit getting the move is the fact that its supposed to be the middle man of the three, so it should have the widest movepool, consisting of moves from both Uxie and Azelf's movepool. Overall, I can see Mesprit becoming used more, and possible find itself in the top 10, if it isn't already, RU Pokemon atm with access to Fire Blast or Flamethrower.
What if Jynx had Ice Body?
Ice Body Pokemon such as Walrein, Glaceon, and even the rare Vanilluxe are well known for being incredibly annoying and capable of stalling out entire teams with Hail support. Now, Jynx is at least an Ice-type, so Ice Body is a possible ability for it to have, and it would imo take hail subtect sets to a whole new level if allowed. For one thing, Jynx has a significantly higher Speed stat than all of the Pokemon that currently have Ice Body, reaching a nice base 95 while Vanilluxe: the fastest Ice Body mon currently only reaches base 79. This means that Jynx could start the subtect cycle on even more threats, and would make up for her lack of actual bulk by quite a bit. Jynx would also have the perk of being able to use Lovely Kiss and Ice Body together, which is obviously a very infuriating combination, and its the second most powerful Blizzard abuser in the tier after Glaceon, making sure that she never ends up becoming a sitting duck after Lovely Kiss has been used up. Jynx's Substitute+Nasty Plot set would definitely benefit from Ice Body as well despite the lack of protect, as Jynx could create more Substitutes with ease, giving her more chances to set up, put something to sleep, and sweep, while also making sure Jynx doesn't get worn down by repeated hazards/sub damage.
So what do you think? would Ice Body Jynx be exceptionally threatening? Would you use it over Dry Skin? and what pokemon might have the ability to deal with an Ice Body Jynx?
Ice Body Pokemon such as Walrein, Glaceon, and even the rare Vanilluxe are well known for being incredibly annoying and capable of stalling out entire teams with Hail support. Now, Jynx is at least an Ice-type, so Ice Body is a possible ability for it to have, and it would imo take hail subtect sets to a whole new level if allowed. For one thing, Jynx has a significantly higher Speed stat than all of the Pokemon that currently have Ice Body, reaching a nice base 95 while Vanilluxe: the fastest Ice Body mon currently only reaches base 79. This means that Jynx could start the subtect cycle on even more threats, and would make up for her lack of actual bulk by quite a bit. Jynx would also have the perk of being able to use Lovely Kiss and Ice Body together, which is obviously a very infuriating combination, and its the second most powerful Blizzard abuser in the tier after Glaceon, making sure that she never ends up becoming a sitting duck after Lovely Kiss has been used up. Jynx's Substitute+Nasty Plot set would definitely benefit from Ice Body as well despite the lack of protect, as Jynx could create more Substitutes with ease, giving her more chances to set up, put something to sleep, and sweep, while also making sure Jynx doesn't get worn down by repeated hazards/sub damage.
So what do you think? would Ice Body Jynx be exceptionally threatening? Would you use it over Dry Skin? and what pokemon might have the ability to deal with an Ice Body Jynx?
Ice Body Jynx would be a real problem and a terrific mid/late game sweeper. Permanent 1/8 recovery every turn allows it to Sub much more freely, and Lovely Kiss alongside the threat of being OHKOd by Blizzard make it not that difficult for Jynx to get going. The Nasty Plot mono-attacking set is the most natural I think, although you have to be a teenie bit careful about being PP stalled, especially with things like Entei and maybe Spiritomb being popular checks with their Pressure. In this regard, the best counter is hands down the King of RU yet again, followed by other bulky waters like Poliwrath and then things like Overcoat Escavalier, but all good Hail teams should have ways of dealing with these. Stallrein is ok against Slowking as long as it doesn't switch in on a Toxic. Rotom-F is always a good option for Hail teams, and it does a number on Water-types (even if it means Tricking Quagsire its Choice item). Fire is an excellent type offensively with regard to synergy with Ice, so Hail teams often have a good Fire attack in hand. All of these things make it easier for Jynx to clean up, because sometimes all it might take is for its checks to be weakened just a bit. If you have the right teammates, then I feel that Ice Body is the better option for late-game sweeping.
What if Carracosta learned Rapid Spin?
Although Carracosta is more than viable in its own right, the turtle is often overlooked because of its low Speed and competition from Kabutops, who has way more initial Speed and access to a very important move: Rapid Spin. So what would happen if Carracosta learned the latter as well? Most turtles seem to learn Rapid Spin, with blastoise and torkoal being good examples, so Rapid Spin Carracosta could definitely be a future possibility. Anyways, i personally think that Rapid Spin Carracosta would give Kabutops a run for its money. While Carracosta is still much slower than Kabutops without a Shell Smash under its belt, Carracosta has way more bulk and access to solid rock to work with, meaning it could take many more hits and possibly fit better onto bulkier offensive teams than its prehistoric brother. I could see Carracosta running a bulky offensive set with Stealth Rock/Waterfall/Stone Edge/Rapid Spin quite easily, given how bulky it is, and with some Attack investment and Carracosta's nice dual STABs, bulky spin Carracosta wouldn't be any slouch offensively either, possibly being able to defeat or at least dent some of the spinblockers. Shell Smash+Spin Carracosta could have some advantages over offensive Kabutops as well such as still vastly superior initial bulk, as well as more speed after a shell smash (assuming kabutops doesn't have a weak armor boost), and only slightly less power. Which could allow carracosta to outpace and KO pokemon that would force a swords dance boosted Kabutops out, such as Lilligant, while also allowing it to outspeed and KO the bulky Rotom that speed creeps kabutops, as Rotom can't outpace a +2 carracosta no matter how much speed it runs unless it runs a Choice Scarf.
So, would you use Carracosta if you got Rapid Spin? If so, which set do you think would be best, and do you think Kabutops would still overshadow Carracosta even with this new addition?
Although Carracosta is more than viable in its own right, the turtle is often overlooked because of its low Speed and competition from Kabutops, who has way more initial Speed and access to a very important move: Rapid Spin. So what would happen if Carracosta learned the latter as well? Most turtles seem to learn Rapid Spin, with blastoise and torkoal being good examples, so Rapid Spin Carracosta could definitely be a future possibility. Anyways, i personally think that Rapid Spin Carracosta would give Kabutops a run for its money. While Carracosta is still much slower than Kabutops without a Shell Smash under its belt, Carracosta has way more bulk and access to solid rock to work with, meaning it could take many more hits and possibly fit better onto bulkier offensive teams than its prehistoric brother. I could see Carracosta running a bulky offensive set with Stealth Rock/Waterfall/Stone Edge/Rapid Spin quite easily, given how bulky it is, and with some Attack investment and Carracosta's nice dual STABs, bulky spin Carracosta wouldn't be any slouch offensively either, possibly being able to defeat or at least dent some of the spinblockers. Shell Smash+Spin Carracosta could have some advantages over offensive Kabutops as well such as still vastly superior initial bulk, as well as more speed after a shell smash (assuming kabutops doesn't have a weak armor boost), and only slightly less power. Which could allow carracosta to outpace and KO pokemon that would force a swords dance boosted Kabutops out, such as Lilligant, while also allowing it to outspeed and KO the bulky Rotom that speed creeps kabutops, as Rotom can't outpace a +2 carracosta no matter how much speed it runs unless it runs a Choice Scarf.
So, would you use Carracosta if you got Rapid Spin? If so, which set do you think would be best, and do you think Kabutops would still overshadow Carracosta even with this new addition?
What if Claydol dropped to RU?
Claydol is considered by many to be UU's worst spinner due to 4MSS and low attacking power. I don't think Claydol would change RU that much. Spiritomb, RU's best spinblocker, Tricks a Choice Band into Claydol, making it useless for the rest of the match, and so can the Rotoms. Slowking sets up Trick Room on it due to its bulk and Regenerator, and then can switch into something like Escavalier to KO Claydol. SubSplit Rotom and Haunter could see more use to stall out Claydol to prevent it from spinning. Uxie Yawns to force a switch and sets up dual screens on it. Taunt and Intimidate from Qwilfish can ruin its plans of setting up rocks, granting Qwilfish a free layer of Spikes. However, Claydol's bulk could promote weather, dual screens, or Trick Room support, and it even has Magic Coat to surprise hazard setters.
Claydol is considered by many to be UU's worst spinner due to 4MSS and low attacking power. I don't think Claydol would change RU that much. Spiritomb, RU's best spinblocker, Tricks a Choice Band into Claydol, making it useless for the rest of the match, and so can the Rotoms. Slowking sets up Trick Room on it due to its bulk and Regenerator, and then can switch into something like Escavalier to KO Claydol. SubSplit Rotom and Haunter could see more use to stall out Claydol to prevent it from spinning. Uxie Yawns to force a switch and sets up dual screens on it. Taunt and Intimidate from Qwilfish can ruin its plans of setting up rocks, granting Qwilfish a free layer of Spikes. However, Claydol's bulk could promote weather, dual screens, or Trick Room support, and it even has Magic Coat to surprise hazard setters.
What if Jynx had Ice Body?
Jynx would be a terrific hail abuser, and would easily shine as a fast and powerful sweeper. Its ability would help it, as it can cure off a little LO recoil as it constantly fires powerful Blizzards, and is less easily worn down. It can also use Substitute+Protect+Ice Body, and it can use Lovely Kiss as well to become even more annoying. SubPlot Jynx would definitely be much more lethal as well, being able to get quick HP much more quickly, and grabbing NP boosts while firing lethal Blizzards. Scarf Jynx could also get a little more HP as it revenge kills, which makes it a good Scarf user in general. Jynx is already a good hail abuser, but I'd easily prefer Ice Body over Dry Skin on hail teams, and this would bring its hail abusing prowess to even greater levels.
What if Carracosta learned Rapid Spin?
One thing's certain, if there was another tier shift, Carracosta would go straight to RU. Carracosta could easily become one of the best Rapid Spin users in RU, having more bulk than Kabutops as well as Solid Rock and Sturdy. It can be one of the few Pokemon that can actually be an excellent team supporter thanks to this, supporting its team with Stealth Rock as well as Rapid Spin providing terrific support, and unlike Sandslash, it's actually gonna do this job well. It has enough power to get past the spinblockers such as Golurk and Rotom, while having Rock solid bulk. It can also do a Shell Smash set with Rapid Spin to break past all of the spinblockers in RU while pulling off a Rapid Spin, and its Speed and power gain could give it a sweeping chance. Carracosta's nice power and bulk also allow it to defeat some common hazard users in the tier; Steelix, Scolipede, Crustle, and Rhydon are just to name a few.
What if Claydol was RU?
Ah Claydol, the first thing hated on the masses, even before Metang. That said, I think Claydol would be good in RU. It won't be anything special, but it would be a good Pokemon. Claydol has good bulk as well as an excellent support movepool, which would make it a decent support Pokemon. It has Stealth Rock to support its team while it has Rapid Spin of course. Its main advantage that would make it a good Rapid Spin user is that while it doesn't have the offensive prowess of Kabutops and Cryogonal, Claydol has two key things over them; it has some useful resistances and is also indifferent to every kind of hazards (Cryo is weak to SR, Claydol resists it). Claydol could also be a useful support Pokemon, with Trick Room, dual Screens, and weather being useful things. Outside of that, Claydol could face competition as a support Pokemon from Uxie, who has greater bulk, although Claydol's extra resistances do come in handy sometimes. Claydol also outclasses Sandslash pretty much entirely, as it has better overall bulk and indifferent to hazards. Trick+Ring Target can also be fun to surprise spinblockers. Overall Claydol will be a decent choice for a Rapid Spin user, giving a secondary option over Cryogonal for stall teams, and finally giving us a Ground-type spinner that doesn't suck cock the way Sandslash does. (and if there were more tier shifts Sandslash would almost definitely land in NU, lol).
Well, I oughtta keep this discussion going, so...
What if Umbreon was RU?
While this would never happen, given tier shifts are most likely done and Umbreon is a Top 5 Pokemon in UU, but here's what compels me to ask this: Umbreon used to be RU. Umbreon could easily be one of the best special walls in the tier, and Foul Play would make it better than ever. It has WishTect+Heal Bell to support its team, and if Dusclops was with it, they could make a nigh unbreakable duo that could make stall powerful in RU. So how would this do?
Jynx would be a terrific hail abuser, and would easily shine as a fast and powerful sweeper. Its ability would help it, as it can cure off a little LO recoil as it constantly fires powerful Blizzards, and is less easily worn down. It can also use Substitute+Protect+Ice Body, and it can use Lovely Kiss as well to become even more annoying. SubPlot Jynx would definitely be much more lethal as well, being able to get quick HP much more quickly, and grabbing NP boosts while firing lethal Blizzards. Scarf Jynx could also get a little more HP as it revenge kills, which makes it a good Scarf user in general. Jynx is already a good hail abuser, but I'd easily prefer Ice Body over Dry Skin on hail teams, and this would bring its hail abusing prowess to even greater levels.
What if Carracosta learned Rapid Spin?
One thing's certain, if there was another tier shift, Carracosta would go straight to RU. Carracosta could easily become one of the best Rapid Spin users in RU, having more bulk than Kabutops as well as Solid Rock and Sturdy. It can be one of the few Pokemon that can actually be an excellent team supporter thanks to this, supporting its team with Stealth Rock as well as Rapid Spin providing terrific support, and unlike Sandslash, it's actually gonna do this job well. It has enough power to get past the spinblockers such as Golurk and Rotom, while having Rock solid bulk. It can also do a Shell Smash set with Rapid Spin to break past all of the spinblockers in RU while pulling off a Rapid Spin, and its Speed and power gain could give it a sweeping chance. Carracosta's nice power and bulk also allow it to defeat some common hazard users in the tier; Steelix, Scolipede, Crustle, and Rhydon are just to name a few.
What if Claydol was RU?
Ah Claydol, the first thing hated on the masses, even before Metang. That said, I think Claydol would be good in RU. It won't be anything special, but it would be a good Pokemon. Claydol has good bulk as well as an excellent support movepool, which would make it a decent support Pokemon. It has Stealth Rock to support its team while it has Rapid Spin of course. Its main advantage that would make it a good Rapid Spin user is that while it doesn't have the offensive prowess of Kabutops and Cryogonal, Claydol has two key things over them; it has some useful resistances and is also indifferent to every kind of hazards (Cryo is weak to SR, Claydol resists it). Claydol could also be a useful support Pokemon, with Trick Room, dual Screens, and weather being useful things. Outside of that, Claydol could face competition as a support Pokemon from Uxie, who has greater bulk, although Claydol's extra resistances do come in handy sometimes. Claydol also outclasses Sandslash pretty much entirely, as it has better overall bulk and indifferent to hazards. Trick+Ring Target can also be fun to surprise spinblockers. Overall Claydol will be a decent choice for a Rapid Spin user, giving a secondary option over Cryogonal for stall teams, and finally giving us a Ground-type spinner that doesn't suck cock the way Sandslash does. (and if there were more tier shifts Sandslash would almost definitely land in NU, lol).
Well, I oughtta keep this discussion going, so...
What if Umbreon was RU?
While this would never happen, given tier shifts are most likely done and Umbreon is a Top 5 Pokemon in UU, but here's what compels me to ask this: Umbreon used to be RU. Umbreon could easily be one of the best special walls in the tier, and Foul Play would make it better than ever. It has WishTect+Heal Bell to support its team, and if Dusclops was with it, they could make a nigh unbreakable duo that could make stall powerful in RU. So how would this do?
What if Umbreon was RU?
Umbreon would most definitely be one of the best special walls and support Pokemon in the RU tier if it ever dropped down for any reason, thats for sure, in fact its pretty much a guarentee looking at its defensive stats x_x. I personally think the main reason Umbreon started out as RU was because of its lack of any offensive presence: it couldn't really do much of anything back to the threats it was trying to check as it only had a base 65 Attack stat with low BP moves to work with. BW2 patched this up with Foul Play. Foul Play means it doesn't matter how low Umbreon's Attack stat is, its still going to be doing a decent amount of damage back to opponents with high Attack stats, possibly 2HKOing or even OHKOing some of them. Combine this with its aforementioned 95/110/130 defenses, the ability to pass somewhat large wishes, and heal status with heal bell, and you have a monster on your hands. Looking at how Umbreon would affect the metagame......Stall and defensive balance and the like would rise up in usage quite a bit, thats for sure. Those are the teams Umbreon fits best on and having a Pokemon that bulky with two important support moves to work with is always a big boon for any Stall team. Umbreon would also deal with certain current threats to stall such as Sigilyph quite nicely. The usage of Offensive Psychic-types such as Sigilyph, certain slowking varients, subCM Uxie, and Mesprit would definitely go down with Umbreon around, as it could probably wall these threats for the entirety of the match with near impunity! Even being completely immune to their Psychic-type STAB and hitting super effectively in return. Clefable's usage might take a big dip as well, considering umbreon would give her quite a bit of competition as a specially defensive Wishpasser, being bulkier on both the physical and the special side, and having Foul Play. Magic Guard means Clefable might still be better in some cases though. As for Pokemon that might increase in usage with Umbreon around: Emboar is the first one that comes to mind, it can come in on Umbreon despite its high Attack stat because of its resistance to Foul Play, and can then proceed to demolish it in return with Superpower. Durant could see an increase in usage too, given it immediately threatens Umbreon with X-Scissor, and resists Foul Play as well.
Umbreon would most definitely be one of the best special walls and support Pokemon in the RU tier if it ever dropped down for any reason, thats for sure, in fact its pretty much a guarentee looking at its defensive stats x_x. I personally think the main reason Umbreon started out as RU was because of its lack of any offensive presence: it couldn't really do much of anything back to the threats it was trying to check as it only had a base 65 Attack stat with low BP moves to work with. BW2 patched this up with Foul Play. Foul Play means it doesn't matter how low Umbreon's Attack stat is, its still going to be doing a decent amount of damage back to opponents with high Attack stats, possibly 2HKOing or even OHKOing some of them. Combine this with its aforementioned 95/110/130 defenses, the ability to pass somewhat large wishes, and heal status with heal bell, and you have a monster on your hands. Looking at how Umbreon would affect the metagame......Stall and defensive balance and the like would rise up in usage quite a bit, thats for sure. Those are the teams Umbreon fits best on and having a Pokemon that bulky with two important support moves to work with is always a big boon for any Stall team. Umbreon would also deal with certain current threats to stall such as Sigilyph quite nicely. The usage of Offensive Psychic-types such as Sigilyph, certain slowking varients, subCM Uxie, and Mesprit would definitely go down with Umbreon around, as it could probably wall these threats for the entirety of the match with near impunity! Even being completely immune to their Psychic-type STAB and hitting super effectively in return. Clefable's usage might take a big dip as well, considering umbreon would give her quite a bit of competition as a specially defensive Wishpasser, being bulkier on both the physical and the special side, and having Foul Play. Magic Guard means Clefable might still be better in some cases though. As for Pokemon that might increase in usage with Umbreon around: Emboar is the first one that comes to mind, it can come in on Umbreon despite its high Attack stat because of its resistance to Foul Play, and can then proceed to demolish it in return with Superpower. Durant could see an increase in usage too, given it immediately threatens Umbreon with X-Scissor, and resists Foul Play as well.
Umbreon comes to RU: As previously mentioned, it'll never happen, but soooooo many teams would love Umbreon. Virtually every specially defensive Pokemon in the tier would immediately drop in usage. Stall teams would get a huge boon as they could use a Wish core of Alomomola+Umbreon that could pretty much keep every member of the team alive with their gigantic Wishes being passed around. As Molk already mentioned, any variation of an offensive Psychic-type would just tank in usage due to Umbreon's insane longevity and immunity to their STAB moves. I think Clefable would drop a bit, but Magic Guard would still be a pretty big plus for it over Umbreon. As for things that would have more usage, Molk covered a couple, but there are more. Escavalier and Aggron wouldn't give 2 hoots about Foul Play and would be more than capable of mauling Umbreon in return. Ferroseed could quickly turn Unbreom into Spikes fodder at will. Hitmonchan would actually have justified top 20/top 15 usage since it could just Drain Punch Umbreon to death without caring about Foul Play. Perhaps the biggest threat to rise up would be Bulk Up Gallade. It could setup all over Umbreon and actually benefit from Foul Play with Justified. The Defense boosts would allow Gallade to handle Foul Play despite its sky high Attack stat and it could proceed to wreck Umbreon's team with, at the minimum, +2 Drain Punches (probably +3 or +4)
The rest have pretty much been covered, so I'll skip out on them.
The rest have pretty much been covered, so I'll skip out on them.
Umbreon should be really very cool in RU and should to make teams defensive very popular, best special wall in RU avalaible with a great bulk, Wish and finally Foul play that should to do a lot of damage against stuff like Entei, Druddigon etc in the switchs. A great special wall w/o be weak to pursuit should be very useful, very hard counter to any Slowking set.
What if Rotom-Heat drops to RU?
What if Rotom-Heat drops to RU?
What if Accelgor got Stealth rocks?
I know this isn't very likely, but hey Infernape got it. Do you think Accelgor would be used more as a suicide lead? Would it use both this and Spikes? Discuss.
I know this isn't very likely, but hey Infernape got it. Do you think Accelgor would be used more as a suicide lead? Would it use both this and Spikes? Discuss.
Accelgor should be more used for sure, many times like a staple on a heavy offense teams with a super speed and holding a Focus Sash, many times can get Stealth Rocks up + 1 layer of spikes. Maybe should go to UU since have an unique rol after the Deo-D ban because the most similar should be Smeargle but is very slower than Accelgor, for example Accelgor setupp hazards against Aerodactyl while Smeargle needs at least Magic Coat, Smeargle also lacks to offense presence and a less bulk. The miss of Spore in Accelgor isnt a big deal comparated with Smeargle since the key is get hazards ASAP and die and a Spore can means that you are gonna lost a layer of spikes.
What if Sceptile gets Nasty Plot?
What if Sceptile gets Nasty Plot?
What if Accelgor got Stealth Rocks?
Obviously, this would be an improvement to the current Accelgor lead set, and would be seen most often with spikes and a focus sash. The usage of Crustle and Omastar would probably drop because of the increased competition for the suicide lead role. The thing that would really help Accelgor, however, is access to taunt. Accelgor would be the Froslass of RU. Accelgor's high speed would also allow it to prevent the set up of all of the pokemon in RU.
So, what if Accelgor got Taunt?
What if Sceptile got Nasty Plot?
Wow, Sceptile would be extremely good, as it is usually running something like substitute or Synthesis in the 4th slot of its special attacker set anyways. Every team would now require an additional Sceptile check/counter, as at +2 Sceptile is a giant threat. Things like bulky Gallade and Escavalier would increase in usage to stop Sceptile (But Escavalier must avoid HP fire). Another pokemon that would improve because of this is Absol. Before, when you mis-predicted with sucker punch against special Sceptile, you would lose, as they would use substitute and get off an attack, now, using sucker punch is a safer choice.
Obviously, this would be an improvement to the current Accelgor lead set, and would be seen most often with spikes and a focus sash. The usage of Crustle and Omastar would probably drop because of the increased competition for the suicide lead role. The thing that would really help Accelgor, however, is access to taunt. Accelgor would be the Froslass of RU. Accelgor's high speed would also allow it to prevent the set up of all of the pokemon in RU.
So, what if Accelgor got Taunt?
What if Sceptile got Nasty Plot?
Wow, Sceptile would be extremely good, as it is usually running something like substitute or Synthesis in the 4th slot of its special attacker set anyways. Every team would now require an additional Sceptile check/counter, as at +2 Sceptile is a giant threat. Things like bulky Gallade and Escavalier would increase in usage to stop Sceptile (But Escavalier must avoid HP fire). Another pokemon that would improve because of this is Absol. Before, when you mis-predicted with sucker punch against special Sceptile, you would lose, as they would use substitute and get off an attack, now, using sucker punch is a safer choice.
Taunt Accelgor: This would be big. It would basically be Froslass v2.0, only not as good since it can't stop Rapid Spin (though Giga Drain would let it murder Kabutops!) Accelgor would probably become the top suicide lead in the tier as it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame and outside of stuff like Unburden Hitmonlee and Sceptile, it could stop any setup sweeper from using a boosting move while setting up Spikes. Bug Buzz and Giga Drain (basically to stop Tops from comming in to spin your Spikes and then Aqua Jet you to death) would cover everything suicide lead Accelgor would need to with Taunt in its arsenal.
Nasty Plot Sceptile: To be perfectly honest, I still think Substitute would get more use. Sceptile's power is rarely a problem and the utility from Sub is just so good. One of the biggest reasons it's so hard to kill off Sceptile is that you can't reliably use priority or Choice Scarf users to revenge kill it since it could just Sub on the switch. SubNP might see some use though as Grass+Fighting has pretty solid coverage in RU outside of Moltres, Scolipede, and the rare Charizard. Sub would still be used to guard against faster stuff and status, but NP would ramp up the power big time. Thanks to Giga Drain, it could still run Life Orb despite using Sub which is something almost no other Sub booster can do.
Nasty Plot Sceptile: To be perfectly honest, I still think Substitute would get more use. Sceptile's power is rarely a problem and the utility from Sub is just so good. One of the biggest reasons it's so hard to kill off Sceptile is that you can't reliably use priority or Choice Scarf users to revenge kill it since it could just Sub on the switch. SubNP might see some use though as Grass+Fighting has pretty solid coverage in RU outside of Moltres, Scolipede, and the rare Charizard. Sub would still be used to guard against faster stuff and status, but NP would ramp up the power big time. Thanks to Giga Drain, it could still run Life Orb despite using Sub which is something almost no other Sub booster can do.
Nasty Plot Sceptile
Just to add on to what EonX said about Nasty Plot Sceptile, you could run a SubNP set or NP + 3 Attacks with a Gem to get the equivalent of a SmashPass (Minus the attack boost and drops of course). I could really see this putting Sceptile over the edge however, especially with its three attacks set. It outspeeds every used scarfer with an Unburden boost, and with a +2, I believe it is capable of OHKO'ing the entire tier with a set of Giga Drain / Focus Blast / HP Rock with rocks up and possibly a layer of spikes. Not to mention it also gets decent recovery with Giga Drain, and a coverage move can be ditched for a Sub, and everyone know how easy it is for Sceptile to get behind a sub. The same thing could happen with Nasty Plot, and at that point, you're just hoping that you can 1) Outspeed and OHKO with whatever you switched into 2) He doesn't carry HP Rock if you chose Moltres or he doesn't have HP Fire for Escavalier 3) If you chose a specially defensive wall or an offensive check that resists or is neutral to Grass/Fighting, that the gem he is carrying isn't the one that hits neutral (Or for Moltres, Fighting Gem). It would definitely be very interesting to see what would happen to Sceptile if this were to come true...
Just to add on to what EonX said about Nasty Plot Sceptile, you could run a SubNP set or NP + 3 Attacks with a Gem to get the equivalent of a SmashPass (Minus the attack boost and drops of course). I could really see this putting Sceptile over the edge however, especially with its three attacks set. It outspeeds every used scarfer with an Unburden boost, and with a +2, I believe it is capable of OHKO'ing the entire tier with a set of Giga Drain / Focus Blast / HP Rock with rocks up and possibly a layer of spikes. Not to mention it also gets decent recovery with Giga Drain, and a coverage move can be ditched for a Sub, and everyone know how easy it is for Sceptile to get behind a sub. The same thing could happen with Nasty Plot, and at that point, you're just hoping that you can 1) Outspeed and OHKO with whatever you switched into 2) He doesn't carry HP Rock if you chose Moltres or he doesn't have HP Fire for Escavalier 3) If you chose a specially defensive wall or an offensive check that resists or is neutral to Grass/Fighting, that the gem he is carrying isn't the one that hits neutral (Or for Moltres, Fighting Gem). It would definitely be very interesting to see what would happen to Sceptile if this were to come true...
Seconding this, also with Final Gambit to preventing be spinner after setupp some Spikes, the problem is that in this case after have the work done, cant kill anything something that Frosslas can do because DestinyBond and a better ability (Cursed Body) that can make a free layer of Spikes or just more utility for the rest of your team. Taunt isnt a big deal since Accelgor is just Usain Bolt in terms of speed so can guarantee 1-2 layer of Spikes anyways and with Final Gambit can prevent setupp of sweepers. I should to found a lot of better Stealth Rock over Taunt in Accelgo since should be a suicide lead overall with SR + Spikes something necessary in a Heavy Offense team and working like "pseudo spinning" with Final Gambit, this should be so good and should be more popular leads like Rhydon / Crustle / Golem (Rock Blast).
What if Shadow Tag Lampent (Chandelure) got released? Something probably in the future..
mkizzy
formerly kenny
What if Shadow Tag Lampent (Chandelure) got released?
That'd be pretty cool I think, it beats quite a few threats including but not limited to (this is with eviolite, 252+spatk):
That'd be pretty cool I think, it beats quite a few threats including but not limited to (this is with eviolite, 252+spatk):
- Escavalier
- Amoonguss
- Tangrowth
- Steelix (revenge although it can probably take an EQ from full hp)
- Emboar (locked into Superpower hopefully, although it can take a blitz in a pinch)
- Ferroseed
- Entei (locked into ESpeed/HP Grass)
- Scarf Medicham (91.02% chance unless rocks are up or revenge, completely immune to Hi Jump Kick)
- Sceptile
- Lilligant (revenge unless w/o HP Rock)
Heres something i thought of yesterday that i'm pretty surprised hasn't been proposed yet as far as i know...
What if Torterra learned Shell Smash?
Despite its current NU status, Torterra is already a pretty underrated Pokemon in Ru at the moment, being able to pull off many different kinds of offensive and defensive sets effectively: from a defensive tank to a late game cleaner with Rock Polish. Now, Torterra is a turtle, and most Turtles have Shells, so why not Shell Smash? Shell Smash would essentially give Torterra the equivalent of a Rock Polish and a Swords Dance in one turn, and because Torterra is reasonably bulky, it wouldn't have trouble setting one up at all in my opinion. Torterra sits at a low base 56 Speed of course, but because its faster than the feared Shell Smash Omastar by one point, i think SS tort would be fast enough to impact the metagame. Once Torterra has acquired a Shell Smash boost, it can proceed to tear through the opponent's team with its Grass- and Ground-type STABs with ease, only having trouble with a fair few Pokemon like Tangrowth and Moltres, which could both be covered by a third coverage move whether it be a super effective Hidden Power or Stone Edge. The best part about Shell Smash Torterra, though, is that its good bulk would leave it somewhat resistant to being worn down by priority, and torterra definitely wouldn't care about things like Kabutops's Aqua Jet or Entei's ExtremeSpeed unless it was considerably weakened, making tort much harder to stop once it gets going.
So, what do you think about Shell Smash Torterra? Would it be a powerful threat? what might increase in usage with it around? and what might fade into obscurity?
What if Torterra learned Shell Smash?
Despite its current NU status, Torterra is already a pretty underrated Pokemon in Ru at the moment, being able to pull off many different kinds of offensive and defensive sets effectively: from a defensive tank to a late game cleaner with Rock Polish. Now, Torterra is a turtle, and most Turtles have Shells, so why not Shell Smash? Shell Smash would essentially give Torterra the equivalent of a Rock Polish and a Swords Dance in one turn, and because Torterra is reasonably bulky, it wouldn't have trouble setting one up at all in my opinion. Torterra sits at a low base 56 Speed of course, but because its faster than the feared Shell Smash Omastar by one point, i think SS tort would be fast enough to impact the metagame. Once Torterra has acquired a Shell Smash boost, it can proceed to tear through the opponent's team with its Grass- and Ground-type STABs with ease, only having trouble with a fair few Pokemon like Tangrowth and Moltres, which could both be covered by a third coverage move whether it be a super effective Hidden Power or Stone Edge. The best part about Shell Smash Torterra, though, is that its good bulk would leave it somewhat resistant to being worn down by priority, and torterra definitely wouldn't care about things like Kabutops's Aqua Jet or Entei's ExtremeSpeed unless it was considerably weakened, making tort much harder to stop once it gets going.
So, what do you think about Shell Smash Torterra? Would it be a powerful threat? what might increase in usage with it around? and what might fade into obscurity?
Shell Smash Torterra should be super cool, with a Jolly nature and running: Wood Hammer or Seed Bomb, Earthquake and then Stone Edge to hit super effective Flying types and neutral against levitate mons / another grass types. I see this Shell Smash Torterra paired with Shell Smash Carracosta :eek: since they both have a great sinergy defensive Carracosta checks fire / fly types while offensively Carracosta can lure Tangrowth with Ice Beam, a wall that should wall easy this new set.
Another viable option should be a more bulky / utility torterra oriented with White Herb to clean the down in stats, while should run a set with Wood Hammer + Earthquake, with Synthesis capable to check dangerous threats in RU like kabutops or rotom-cut, while this set should be slower than the first but bulkier and with a worst coverage so probably this last set requires more support than all out attacker shell smash torterra.
Another viable option should be a more bulky / utility torterra oriented with White Herb to clean the down in stats, while should run a set with Wood Hammer + Earthquake, with Synthesis capable to check dangerous threats in RU like kabutops or rotom-cut, while this set should be slower than the first but bulkier and with a worst coverage so probably this last set requires more support than all out attacker shell smash torterra.
Shell Smash Torterra: I don't know. Shell Smash is the best boosting move in the game and Torterra could certainly benefit from it. I don't find a problem with the stats, but I do find a problem in Torterra's movepool; it doesn't have a really strong physical Grass STAB outside of Wood Hammer. We're saying Torterra is bulky enough to handle priority and that is true. However, it would basically be weakening itself into KO range of priority as it uses Wood Hammer due to the recoil (and possible LO recoil) so I don't know how effective it would be in the long run. That said, I think Seed Bomb would probably be strong enough to take out what it needs to, but there would probably be times where the raw power of Wood Hammer would be needed. It would definitely make Moltres and Tangrowth rise in usage as one would always end up walling Torterra depending on if it goes mixed with HP Fire (or Ice) or if it goes pure physical with Stone Edge. It would be a threat to prepare for, no doubt, but I have my reservations with it because of Wood Hammer cutting into the bulk that makes Torterra so resilient to priority. Also keep in mind that Torterra is resistant to Stealth Rock and immune to Thunder Wave courtesy of its Ground typing which is something no other current Shell Smash user can claim.