dont forget that magnezone is still golden for elimating all the new steel threats too. Outside of a sandstorm, a scarfzone can come in and elimate even Gen 5's biggest early threat right now in Doryuuzu.
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Scizor
- Thread starter THE ENEMY
- Start date
If this is how you feel, then you are missing the point of Scizor.
Scizor's U-Turn is WAYY more than just a scouting maneuver, and i think you know this, but you are just playing devils advocate here because your biased toward Kojondo.
And scizor, although effective at it, was never relegated to just revenge killing and scouting. combining both, as well as sweeping potential from weakened opponents all in one makes for a destructive pokemon.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. What do we have for him Johnny?
Seriously this is exactly it. No one else's U Turn is stronger and when you pair BP and U Turn in a sequence, that's the skill in using Scizor. He's good at making them switch into Heatran just to U Turn out and save BP for when the time is right. U Turn takes chunks out of Tyranitar if it ain't safe and the likes. Takes Surf from Starmie, U Turn for ohko. Done it many times.
Have either you played this meta yet? If you have you will know that Pringlefish is on absolutely every team out there. Scizor can't do shit to it, and it will just burn him rendering him useless for the rest of the match. Nattorei is also a big defensive threat. Scizor can only hope to hit him with Superpower, and if you predict wrong they can bring in Shandera, Wobbuffet, Erefuun, <Ghost type>, etc. and shut you down and/or take you out. Bullet punch also does forgettable damage to Kerudio, Doryuzuu, etc. So unless you aren't going to use Scizor for anything other than U-Turning around and blindly spamming Superpower so you can actually hit stuff for significant damage, I am going to go with something that can actually take out some major threats. Kojondo can U-Turn around too, and although it's U-Turn is slightly weaker it gets STAB on HJK, which is far stronger than Superpower and doesn't lower your attack after use. I'm pretty sure there's a reason I have only seen one Scizor during my entire time on PO (about 50 battles)
Oh Scizor's U-Turn is so great. Well if Kojondo doesn't mind putting up with a 195 BP HJK, he can forgo reckless for Regeneration, which heals him every time he uses U-Turn. I honestly don't care if Scizor's is stronger.
Unless you can give me any good reason to use Scizor over Kojondo other than "his U-Turn is stronger", I will stick with Kojondo thank you very much.
And @ Chomps, Hihidaruma is pretty bad, and practically any fire type can take out Scizor without a sweat. EDIT: ninja'd
I wouldn't count on that.
Bullet Punch vs 4/0 Hihidaruma = 36% - 42% (guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
U-turn vs 4/0 Hihidaruma = 42% - 49%
Superpower vs 4/0 Hihidaruma = 96% - 113% (74% chance to OHKO -without- Stealth Rock)
Hihidaruma cannot switch into the standard Choice Band Scizor. If he comes in on BP, U-turn or Superpower he's dead (or as good as dead in the case of U-turn). And if he comes in on Pursuit then Scizor has probably already done his job.
PS make sure your posts have some content in future + lurk more.
I'm not convinced Kojo can scout anywhere near as effectively as Scizor. The huge difference is the fact that Scizor has good bulk, 9 resistances, an immunity and doesn't even mind paralysis that much. He can actually switch in and earn himself an opportunity to U-turn. Kojondo can only safely come in after a death because he has shit for defenses and pointless resistances (by pointless I mean it's not as if he can come in on Rock or Dark attacks...CBTar deals up to 94% with Stone Edge).
huh?
CB Scizor U-turn vs 4/0 Garchomp = 59% avg
CB Kojo U-turn vs 4/0 Garchomp = 35% avg
I'm being generous there because Kojo really has no business holding a Choice Band in which case it's more like 23%.
Are you running Choice Band? If you are then I'm sure you can agree with me that Kojo is outclassed as a revenge killer 100%. So I assume you're running Scarf? Choice Band Scizor's Superpower is actually stronger than Scarf Kojondo's Hi Jump Kick.
CB Scizor Superpower vs 4/0 Garchomp = 68% avg
Kojo's HJK vs 4/0 Garchomp = 65% avg
I'm calling bullshit. Please expand.
*deep breath*
- Higher Attack
- Higher HP
- Higher Defense
- Higher Special Defense
- BULLET PUNCH
- Pursuit
- 9 resistances
- An immunity
- Can't be poisoned
- Isn't automatically ended by paralysis
- Isn't forced to rely on 'Fail Edge' to revenge certain threats.
- Isn't raped by every priority move on the game.
- Isn't forced to rely on Hi Jump Kick to actually hurt something (oops, you switched in a Ghost)
- Can actually damage Ghosts. Kojo's best option against Ghosts is what...Payback? With 105 Spe? Nice.
As a scout/revenge killer, generally speaking, it is Scizor who outclasses Kojondo. And it's by quite a wide margin imo.
To be quite honest, I haven't. But you haven't played long enough for a meta to be shaped either. My point still stands, Scizor is going NOWHERE and you can save this post for later in the future I need be.
I never said his only good point was U-Turn. But you apparently haven't played Scizor a lot to see the damage he does.
Lee said it better than I ever could anyway. Scizor is a beast, and will remain one for a long time. He has advantages just like Kojando or whatever pokemon you want to compare.
I'm also not here to convince you to play Scizor over Kojando. I am merely stating obvious facts
that Scizor isn't out classed.
And Superpower might not be stab, but HJK can miss. Causing you damage to yourself and whatever your opponent throws at you. They both have their reasons for usage.
I usually get Kojondo in by U-turning to it with Erefuun (yes I run two pokes with U-Turn, it works wonders :P), coming in on a setup move, or yes bringing it in after a death. And if the difference in power between Scizor and Kojo's U-Turn is preposterous, but the difference in power and coverage between Scizor's BP and Kojo's HJK is too. I'm not at all saying Scizor is bad. The two pokemon are similar, but I prefer using Kojondo for the better power and coverage on his attacks other than U-Turn.
That's funny because it seemed like you were dogging me and Scizor a couple posts back. And yes, HJK is some insane shit, but SP still has uses as well. Being accurate can mean everything.
HJK has some crazy base power though and alongside STAB I know it can be dangerous. I just love Scizor like you love Kojando.
Let's be honest here - saying kojondo is better than scizor is a joke, and a bad one at that. Blatant favoritism. Scizor outclasses kojondo in almost every way, from typing, to stats, to ability and move pool. But I will say this: HJK is a great move, and no player worth his salt is ever going to hit a ghost with it on a pokemon that learns both u-turn and payback (btw, switching a ghost in means they eat a full power payback).
I can see them both being used beside each other though, it can get annoying having a fast U-Turner and a bulky power U-Turner hit you all over the place just to watch Scizor do clean up work with Bullet Punch or Kojando with HJK respectively.
i think Kojondo and Scizor are different enough where comparing them the way some people want to is not possible.
They can AND SHOULD be played differently. Because they are different. its as simple as that.
To say one is better is subjective. What is better? usage? total damage output?
They can AND SHOULD be played differently. Because they are different. its as simple as that.
To say one is better is subjective. What is better? usage? total damage output?
Actually, no. Scizor has STAB U-turn. Also, a main reason Bullet Punch is so incredibly useful on Scizor is because nothing is immune to Bullet Punch. Bullt Punch will always do SOME damage. Scizor also has Pursuit to trap ghosts like Gengar, Shanderaa stuck on Shadow Ball, etc., while having Technician so Pursuit will have 60BP, 20BP less than if the Ghost switches. Also, a main reason Scizor will be used more than Kojondo is due to reliability, typing as well.
Scizor's spot in BW-OU is nearly guaranteed. It's going to take a lot more than adding Doryuuzu, Shanderaa, etc. to get rid of the most reliable bander/scouter in DPPt OU.
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Scizor's movepool for its niche is so vast, U-turn-BulletPunch-Superpower-Pursuit, that Scizor really didn't need anything new. Scizors banded moveset is so perfect, even if it got something new there would not be room for it. As for its SD set, Roost-SD-Bulletpunch-BrickBreak, having something that hits Gyarados and Zapdos would be nice.
These are not reason why Scizor topped the usage charts. Scizor topped the usage charts for so long because of the fact it was a reliable Latias and Salamence check. Salamence, indirectly, caused overpopulation due to Scizor. One of the main reasons Scizor was used so much is because it checked dragons so well. Salamence needed to use Outrage on its moveset because it could not OHKO Blissey without it. Even its Naughty 252Atk EV'd Brick Break is a 2HKO. Because of this, and this alone really, Scizor was used so much. Not to mention Scizor was the perfect Latias counter, if said Latias dd not have HPFire
~ Posted by Nanoswine
On the contrary; you seem to be biased BECAUSE he is new. And just saying something is better does not make it so. Youve challenged us to give reasons as to why scizor is better and we have done so. And you've just ignored us because "Kojondo is just better".
So, now, i offer it to you. Why is Kojondo better? dont give us what Kojondo can do, give us reasons why Kojondo IS BETTER than Scizor. Go ahead. It wouldnt have to come to this but you were so childish about it, it seems fitting to make you argue your way out of this.
On the same note, I've tried to make the point that they are different enough where the terms better and worse dont apply, but that was actually said in an attempt to try and save kojondo from being verbally outclassed, which he mostly is. Mostly however, is not completely.
Guys, got an idea for a set here...
Reversal:
Evs: Bulky, not sure about the Evs.
Nature: Jolly/Adamant.
Ability: Technician.
Item:Salac/Liechi Berry.
Move 1: Reversal
Move 2: Bullet Punch/Mach Punch/Acrobat*
Move 3: Endure/Substitute
Move 4: Agility/Swords Dance/Acrobat*
*(if it is still affected by technician after the x2 boost)
The aim of the game here is to switch Scizor in on one of the many attack types it resists, and use your set up move (agility/swords dance). Then attempt to get down to 1hp and kill everything with reversal. Swords dance + Salac Berry is preferred, as you can destroy most things with a boosted Reversal/Priority. The only reason Mach Punch is listed as it can take down the mole before he can move (at +2 with Technician).
The only drawback of this set is the fact it is walled by candlemon, which can switch in and accumulate boosts while you cannot do anything; This is where acrobat comes in. After you've lost your item, acrobat becomes a powerful attack. If it is affected by technician, then it becomes immensely powerful.
Reversal:
Evs: Bulky, not sure about the Evs.
Nature: Jolly/Adamant.
Ability: Technician.
Item:Salac/Liechi Berry.
Move 1: Reversal
Move 2: Bullet Punch/Mach Punch/Acrobat*
Move 3: Endure/Substitute
Move 4: Agility/Swords Dance/Acrobat*
*(if it is still affected by technician after the x2 boost)
The aim of the game here is to switch Scizor in on one of the many attack types it resists, and use your set up move (agility/swords dance). Then attempt to get down to 1hp and kill everything with reversal. Swords dance + Salac Berry is preferred, as you can destroy most things with a boosted Reversal/Priority. The only reason Mach Punch is listed as it can take down the mole before he can move (at +2 with Technician).
The only drawback of this set is the fact it is walled by candlemon, which can switch in and accumulate boosts while you cannot do anything; This is where acrobat comes in. After you've lost your item, acrobat becomes a powerful attack. If it is affected by technician, then it becomes immensely powerful.
Why hasn't anyone posted a possible special sweeping set? Originallity is a very dangerous thing in the hands of an experienced player.
Why dont you post one then? If you are confident enough that one will work, be our guest.
Not to rain on your parade though, but a pokemon like scizor really doesn't have Special attacking power at all, so im curious where you would go with that.
Air Slash/Bug Buzz/Hp whatever/filler
It isn't the slightest bit conventional i'll admit, but until you've tried it can you really rate it?
With a 55 Base special attack you dont need to try it before rate it
Ha, yes i can.
Semi-Bad STAB typing coming off of a base 55 SPA and 65 SPE goes very far beyond the "gimmicky surprise" kind of moveset.
I'm not meaning to sound insulting, but its just childish and stupid to try to run a set like that.
But, Kudos for trying to be original and thinkng outside of the box.
Since you argued you can´t just spam u turns around and keep saying how awesome that HJK is, i´ll just say that scizor fares way better vs burunkeru than kojondo (aside from payback, but spammin that is even worse than spamming u turn) because you get totally crushed when he switches in on your HJK and U turn wont really scratch him either (scizor does, because as said it´s not only slightly stronger but ~ twice as strong).
So these pokemon can´t come in on your HJK? cool.
Aside from the fact that kojondos main attack is HJK which does exactly 0 damage to ghost types and even hurts you in the process, BP is (obviously) nowhere near useless, hitting randorosu, terakion and others hard enough or harder (unless you run reckless maybe, but i´ll get to that later)and i would rather go wiht something that can actually take a hit (that´s right, 65/60/60 is not actually bulky).
as Lee said, your scarfed HJK isnt actually stronger than scizors banded superpower and youre choiced so you probably wont stay in anyway. Also, the reason you haven´t seen many scizors is probably that people want to play wiht new pokemon and not wiht the most overused one of gen 4.
i will now tell you what is the most important thing about kojondo (and the reason why i went from hype to this post): it can and will not take any reasonable STAB attack. 65/60/60 is even less than ape, and we know how bulky that is. add to that the chance of crippling yourself with HJK and no immunites+not too many resists and this is not scouting anything that good since letting something die and then u turn out is just inefficient. without regeneration it´s even worse, and with it´s still not switching in without dying 4 times. (probably it wont even survive nr 3 but w/e).
Tl;dr: have fun switching.
I can't believe some baboon tried saying Kojondo's U-turn is "just as strong" as Scizor's. Best joke of the day amirite?
Scizor will still tear shit to shreds this generation and I highly doubt its existance will fade. What's really making me shudder a little is the thought of Shanderaa getting Shadow Tag. While being locked onto Bullet Punch is fine, Superpower or Pursuit lock probably means death (though if it's Calm Mind Shanderaa it can't set up on Pursuit). I doubt it will plunge Scizor down to UU, just it might not reign as #1. That's still not bad at all since it is and always will be a top tier threat. Overall Scizor didn't need to change at all. What he has for Gen 5 is a ok. At worst Shed Shell might be considered a useful item this generation, and that's about it.
That and Scizor doesn't lose half of its health with a miss like High Jump Lose does.
Scizor will still tear shit to shreds this generation and I highly doubt its existance will fade. What's really making me shudder a little is the thought of Shanderaa getting Shadow Tag. While being locked onto Bullet Punch is fine, Superpower or Pursuit lock probably means death (though if it's Calm Mind Shanderaa it can't set up on Pursuit). I doubt it will plunge Scizor down to UU, just it might not reign as #1. That's still not bad at all since it is and always will be a top tier threat. Overall Scizor didn't need to change at all. What he has for Gen 5 is a ok. At worst Shed Shell might be considered a useful item this generation, and that's about it.
Shadow Tag Shanderaa will pretty much get rid of any choiced Scizor not locked into U-Turn and Swords Dance variations. And ones that aren't choiced will easily get outsped before they can U-turn. Scizor's got a deadly new enemy this gen, and if it/it's ability doesn't get banned, it's gonna have a major problem. And for scouting, well, Kojondo wouldn't be throwing Scarf HJK's around anyways. It's a scout for a reason. If you switch it in against something that's weak to Fighting, you don't HJK, you U-turn because there's a damn good chance Shanderaa or Burunkeru will switch in on the anticipated HJK, and the only time you DO HJK is if you know for sure that there's no Ghost on the enemy team or if you've already killed it.
Shanderaa also doesn't like Scizor, and that's because the Scizor player will likely use Scarf Shanderaa in case Scizor is trapped. Even though it makes a chainball of events, that's the beauty of it all. In fact, Scarf Shanderaa has to watch out for Scizor too. If it's not locked onto Fire Blast, Shanderaa is screwed.
Here let me throw this stupid scenario on you.
All Scizor needs cleared is Shanderaa, and it works just fine. Possibly Magnezone if it ever gets popular.
Meanwhile Kojondo has to play a game of risk, since I could just sack the Fighting-weak Pokemon, switch in Shanderaa, and either kill it or get two free Calm Minds in or just have my Fighting-weak Pokemon attack regardless. If I use Shed Shell on Scizor, while his power is weakened, he switches out and gets a surprise for him. I mean, your last statement is literally grasping at straws now. If you're going to use Kojondo, you sure as hell aren't going to use Scarf.
Ill refer you to Post #39 in this thread. It will outline for you why CB Scizor really won't have to worry about Shandera much at all.