Multi Gen Ubers Premier League IV - Week 5

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Fireburn

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Tbf the whole "Gene not being Scarf and Problems has to crit twice" is hilarious. You could have come up with a much more probable scenario:

Giratina-O was actually the old school DPP mixed set (not used much any more but tbf it's more probable than non-Scarf Gene). Zekrom Bolt Strikes Ghostceus for >55% and then Gira-O comes in and one-turn wakes to revenge Ghostceus with Shadow Sneak. It then lives a Genesect Ice Beam and then kills it with HP Fire, picks off Latias with Shadow Sneak, and then finishes off Groudon with Draco Meteor.

I'm so good at this :P
The only problem with this scenario is that this is BW2 Ubers, so it is impossible for Giratina-O to get a first-turn wake. For this scenario to play out, Zekrom would have to paralyze the Ghost Arceus with Bolt Strike, then Giratina-O gets a second-turn wake after Ghostceus FPs once.

You are correct in saying that this could be possible, assuming yellow magic intervention. :V
 

Joim

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Your tears are all delicious.

That being said, you have a 100% way of preventing these kinds of unfortunate situations by submitting your teams. It takes maybe a minute at worst to load an importable of your team into a PM and send it to me. The rule is there for your own safety, if you choose not to protect yourself then the consequences are on you.

And yes, I am aware that the odds of PROBLEMS's Genesect not being Scarf are lower than Sweep's chances of not getting haxed out of a major tournament, but the point here is that in order to establish a guarantee I need some kind of proof. I don't have any proof, so establishing a guaranteed win scenario is impossible.
Hello:
I implemented battle challenge log precisely for this kind of problems some time ago. Thus, we can check the exact sets of two people playing and even the RNG seed of the battle to solve this kind of problems.

Since I've been asked if that was possible, I've checked the battle log for 2016-02/gen5ubers/2016-02-24, that is, this battle. Apparently, the Genesect, nicknamed BUG, did have a Choice Scarf at the beginning of the battle. If the TDs need this specific log, I can provide it by Private Message.

Cheers!
 

PROBLEMS

AHEAD OF HIS TIME
Fireburn get down on ur knees fam and give me my win ty

BUG (Genesect) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Iron Head
- Explosion
- U-turn
- Ice Beam

+1 8 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zekrom: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

IDK I MIGHT HAVE MISSED ICE BEAM BOYS

edit: :D
 
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Merritt

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So I'll explain why shrang's scenario doesn't let March Fires win either. I'm not really involved in this but figured hey why not.

Since Problems is scarf, on the turn Zekrom comes in he should sac Latias. This prevents any hax from influencing the battle, as now Genesect can come in and just get the required KOs. Do I think this was the move Problems was going to click? Hell no. But if we're considering whether or not he has a 100% win barring misplays, that is the route where he 100% wins. Anything else is a misplay, kind of like if you had a terrakion and lucario vs a tyranitar at 1% that was itemless or something and you just switched back and forth between the two until they died, only less extreme.

So yeah never gonna post in this thread again.
 
Even though my team and Lord Outrage's team can't qualify for the playoffs anymore, we hope to provide a nice and clean match 10pm GMT+1/4pm EST on Sunday.
 
it appears we are in a position where its known that problems would win unless he massively choked, if for some reason a decision is made where he doesn't get the win, I believe we can get the information needed to recreate the battle from that point on, but I think everyone who looked at the outcome of the game can see that is not necessary to determine the winner

The c/p from the OP is from a time before admins had that ability
 

Isa

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when these cases come to the TDs we give out wins in cases of DCs where the win is 100% guaranteed

problems had a 100% win

"triple scald burn" or "double outrage crits" is something we consider
"he might have choked" is not something we consider

yes he didn't send in the team, but there's no inherent value in sending in a team, it's a way for the TO's to know what you used. joim revealed that the genesect was scarf and the win was 100% if genesect was scarf, so the win should be given to problems.
 

hyw

Banned deucer.
I agree with Fireburn's call here; the possibility that he could have misclicked and failed to cancel in time (his connection was spotty in the first place) alone should be sufficient justification to not grant Problems the "100% win." I'm obviously biased but I believe Fireburn's decision here was just and correct both according to the tournament rules and courtesy of sportsmanship.

Also lol @ Raseri's input, remisciscent of debates in the US where the right and left struggle in argument over strict versus slack interpretations of the Consitition.
 

Isa

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Regardless of whether or not it was an accident, PROBLEMS forfeited on Turn 29 in a 4-2 situation against March Fires. While PROBLEMS was in a commanding position and was very likely to win the game, it should be noted that the "100% guaranteed win" clause for DCs only applies when you actually have a 100% guaranteed win. PROBLEMS only has one scenario in which he has a guaranteed win: his Genesect is Scarfed. If it wasn't, then March Fires would have a small chance to win via Outrage crits.

However, here's the problem - I can't verify that PROBLEMS's Genesect was Scarfed. I don't have his team.
Since I've been asked if that was possible, I've checked the battle log for 2016-02/gen5ubers/2016-02-24, that is, this battle. Apparently, the Genesect, nicknamed BUG, did have a Choice Scarf at the beginning of the battle.
hyw pls respond in a non-deleted post
 
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PROBLEMS

AHEAD OF HIS TIME
Fireburns justification for not giving me the win was 'problems couldn't prove his genesect was scarf'..

Well there's proof on my set ladies and gents, no reason for me to not be granted a win now is there? Seems pretty white and black to me the ruling for this.
 

hyw

Banned deucer.
Respond to what? The burden of proof lies upon the party to have committed the forfeiture, Problems, and as shrang and Fireburn both have analyzed and outlined, there exist multiple scenarios in which March Fires could have won from the point at which the game had been terminated. In fact, Fireburn's counter-argument to shrang's hypothetical stands erroneous because for said BW2 mechanics to prove it false, March Fires must have stayed in one full turn with his sleeping Giratina-O to demonstrate that the sleep counter for the first turn was for it to sleep, which never happened; henceforth, the opportunity for March Fires to have awoken the first turn was still possible with a 1/3 probability. Therefore, the chance for March Fires to have came back via shrang's scenario would have been lesser than that of the statistics presented in his original post but the fact of the matter stands that March Fires indeed possessed a chance to come back nonetheless. Such explorations of hypotheticals prove that there prevails definite ambiguity concerning the fate of what would have happened had Problems not forfeited; and yet, the fact that Problems was the one to have forfeited remains as well. In the end, the tournament directors have ruled in favor of the party that was forfeited against, and again, I agree with said ruling.

Of course, I do not deny that Problems had an overwhelming advantage, but to take into consideration all of the information and evidence we've been provided with and to grant Problems the automatic win would objectively be an outright violation of common sense and decency is all I'm saying.
 

Merritt

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Respond to what? The burden of proof lies upon the party to have committed the forfeiture, Problems, and as shrang and Fireburn both have analyzed and outlined, there exist multiple scenarios in which March Fires could have won from the point at which the game had been terminated. In fact, Fireburn's counter-argument to shrang's hypothetical stands erroneous because for said BW2 mechanics to prove it false, March Fires must have stayed in one full turn with his sleeping Giratina-O to demonstrate that the sleep counter for the first turn was for it to sleep, which never happened; henceforth, the opportunity for March Fires to have awoken the first turn was still possible with a 1/3 probability. Therefore, the chance for March Fires to have came back via shrang's scenario would have been lesser than that of the statistics presented in his original post but the fact of the matter stands that March Fires indeed possessed a chance to come back nonetheless. Such explorations of hypotheticals prove that there prevails definite ambiguity concerning the fate of what would have happened had Problems not forfeited; and yet, the fact that Problems was the one to have forfeited remains as well. In the end, the tournament directors have ruled in favor of the party that was forfeited against, and again, I agree with said ruling.

Of course, I do not deny that Problems had an overwhelming advantage, but to take into consideration all of the information and evidence we've been provided with and to grant Problems the automatic win would objectively be an outright violation of common sense and decency is all I'm saying.
On the turn when he "forfeited" if Problems sacs Latias he literally cannot lose, as that means Genesect gets to come in for free. Basically what you're saying is that Problems loses if he makes a subpar play, which is not something that should really be taken into account since that's basically true of all scenarios.

Also I think you might misunderstand BW sleep mechanics or you phrased whatever you meant very strangely. In BW, if a Pokemon switches out its sleep counter is reverted to 0, so Giratina would be coming in as if it comes in on a Dark Void. It cannot wake up on the very first turn it comes in.

In other words, Turn 1: Zekrom Bolt Strikes/Outrages Ghostceus but does not KO it. Ghostceus KOs Zekrom. Giratina is sent in.
Turn 2: Giratina cannot wake up this turn. Ghostceus KOs Giratina.

So March Fires would need the para full para to win. EDIT: Which is only a possibility if Problems "misplays" by staying in with Ghostceus and decides to KO Zekrom.
 
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hyw

Banned deucer.
Precisely so! And since the odds of that happening =/= 0...I think we all get the idea.

I'm also concerned that if this case for whatever reason goes in favor of Problems, it would set a malicious precedent encouraging others to simply forfeit once the game had resulted greatly into their favor to be given the free victory whilst bypassing any improbable scenarios, misclicks, and so on.
 
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Fireburn

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Dang Joim you're a wizard, wish I knew that feature was in there sooner lol.

Anyway, I now have proof that PROBLEMS did, in fact, have a 100% guaranteed win since Scarf Genesect simply KOes everything with Ice Beam once it gets a chance to switch in, and neither Zekrom nor Gratina-O can KO Genesect before it KOes them.

Also for future reference...the "100% guaranteed win" clause only means there has to be a path to victory for the player that will win them the game with 100% probability, as judged by damage rolls, secondary effect procs, potential misses, etc. Whether or not they actually execute it (i.e. misclick) is irrelevant to the judgment call.

I'm also concerned that if this case for whatever reason goes in favor of Problems, it would set a malicious precedent encouraging others to simply forfeit once the game had resulted greatly into their favor to be given the free victory whilst bypassing any improbable scenarios, misclicks, and so on.
I don't see how this could be a problem at all. If a player is smart enough to realize they have a 100% win and forfeit, then they are smart enough to execute it, so the end result is just them being a huge jerk. And if they forfeit on purpose when they don't have a 100% win...well, they're just stupid.

We only care about probabilities intrinsic to game mechanics such as miss chances and secondary effect procs. Misclicking is not a game mechanic.

tl;dr Isa is correct and I'll be giving PROBLEMS the win instead (though he should still learn to send in his team, it would save him a lot of rage!)
 
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