Other Weather Testing on the CAP Server

[tennisace]

We need to get the ball rolling on this, and since Doug appointed me head of testing, Im going to split this up to make it more efficient. The main purpose of this is to make weather teams using the pokemon named and pokemon that can take advantage of the weather.

Im going to split this up into "Divisions". All division leaders will be chosen by me, however, they can choose people they want in their division (I'll review the choices after.) Rosters should have 5 people MAX, not including leaders. The two Kyogre/Groudon variation pairs must find counters to themselves and the Hail/Sand teams, not the other set. What I mean by this is that the level 78 teams need to find 4 different counters: Blue Team, Red Team, White Team and Brown Team. The same goes for the "lite" variations.
However, the Sand and Hail Teams don't need to find counters for each other, but counters for ALL variations. The Control Group only needs to test itself against all the teams and find counters for the Sun/Rain teams. The reason for this is that Hail, Sand, and "Clear" aren't being changed. I hope it somewhat makes sense.

Division 1: Level 78 Kyogre "Blue Team"
Roster: Bass, SkarmBlissCounter (Dixie Normas), Sanjay120, Eric the Espeon
Purpose: Since Level 78 was found to be the optimal level for balancing ubers in OU by X-Act (Who i'd be very grateful of if he posted his formula here for intelligent discussion), Kyogre is being tested at this level in OU.


Division 2: Level 78 Groudon "Red Team"
Roster: The Artic One, Oxymoron, 3N3MY
Purpose: Same as Kyogre. However, after reading the previous thread, the general consensus was that people thought that Rain had a large advantage over Sun. If this is found to be true, we could raise the level of Groudon to balance it out.


Division 3: Kyogrette "Purple Team"
Roster: Sunday, Kr3wbro (Spanky), Logann
Purpose: Kyogrette and Groudonino were brought up in the other thread. The main concept is to take 30 points off all stats and make it a set amount of time for Auto-Rain/Sun. This is because some people think that Perma-Rain/Sun is broken, and is instead of lowering the level of the weather ubers.



Division 4: Groudino "Pink Team"
Roster: Deck Knight, Cooley, Galahad, Lord Gloom
Purpose: Same as Kyogrette.


Division 5: Abomasnow "White Team"
Roster: Stall
Purpose: This is to use standard Hail with no changes for better or worse as a comparison to the other teams.


Division 6: Tyranitar/Hippowdon "Brown Team"
Roster: Bloods Cuc, GuyNamedBlaq
Purpose: Same as Hail, only with Sand. This may be the better measure of wether or not the other weather teams are broken, since Sand is MUCH better than Hail due to more pokemon able to take advantage of it.

Division 7: Control "Clear Team" (Just a standard team.)
Roster: Time Mage, Alphabet_Soup
Purpose: Dane's idea. Basically create a standard no-weather changing team. This may or may not include Air Lock/Cloud Nine pokemon.


Ok, post away and we'll discuss this for about...3 days before we start.

QUESTIONS THAT NEED TO BE DISCUSSED NOW:
What Level for Kyogre and Groudon and why.
How long the Auto-Weather lasts on the "lite" versions.
Should they get Water Spout/Eruption.

 

[Aldaron]

I know you said WIP DO NOT POST, but lol, I'm kind of curious as to how the division leaders were picked?

If it was a purely volunteer-type thing, then I can understand. But if it was based on battling merit, then I have to wonder about a few of those division leaders, especially if they are going to have more responsibility than the other members regarding the advancing of their teams.

 

[Sunday]

WIP do not post, I know...
Yeah I'm going to presume leaders were picked entirely by you. We'de kind of like some form of notification next time, perhaps an option to voice our preference wouldn't go astray either. >.>

Despite that I'd by happy to lead "Kyogrette" if the general concensus is I'm the best for the job.

Some more confirmation on exactly what entails a "level 78" base 600 and somethings stats would also be nice. Right now it seems quite cluttered, what with seven 'projects' going on at once... I really don't know where the idea of making teams as a concensus came from, wasn't that a previous idea from back when CAP was young that never really took off?

EDIT: "purpose" with an 'o' not an 'a'.

 

[Dane]

WIP do not post, I know...
Yeah I'm going to presume leaders were picked entirely by you. We'de kind of like some form of notification next time, perhaps an option to voice our preference wouldn't go astray either. >.>

Yeah, since I'm going to Japan for about two weeks on Monday, I really don't have time to put into this.

 

[tennisace]

I <3 Multiquote. OK:

I know you said WIP DO NOT POST, but lol, I'm kind of curious as to how the division leaders were picked?

If it was a purely volunteer-type thing, then I can understand. But if it was based on battling merit, then I have to wonder about a few of those division leaders, especially if they are going to have more responsibility than the other members regarding the advancing of their teams.

It was a top-of-my-head i have to leave in 5 minutes for a tennis match kinda pick. Since Dane is going to Japan you can lead the Control team if you'd like. Sorry for not picking you but i havent seen you on in a while.

WIP do not post, I know...
Yeah I'm going to presume leaders were picked entirely by you. We'de kind of like some form of notification next time, perhaps an option to voice our preference wouldn't go astray either. >.>

Despite that I'd by happy to lead "Kyogrette" if the general concensus is I'm the best for the job.

Some more confirmation on exactly what entails a "level 78" base 600 and somethings stats would also be nice. Right now it seems quite cluttered, what with seven 'projects' going on at once... I really don't know where the idea of making teams as a concensus came from, wasn't that a previous idea from back when CAP was young that never really took off?

EDIT: "purpose" with an 'o' not an 'a'.

Again, not enough time to ask for opinions, i rushed myself into this. More info is on the way. Also it's not as much as make a team as make a team in synch with the weather. This is just to test the viability of different weather starters. And i was about to edit the mistake when the bell rang =/

Yeah, since I'm going to Japan for about two weeks on Monday, I really don't have time to put into this.

Okey dokie, i asked Aldaron a few lines up. Thanks for letting me know now.

EDIT: OP edited. POST AWAY. I really want to discuss in detail how we got level 78, even though i get the gist of it from X-Act's post. I also want to discuss how many turns of Auto-Weather for the "lite" versions.

 

[Deck Knight]

NidoGroudinon team for me. Soon you shall all know the pain and anguish that is random borz or something.

Hehehehe. I'll get started right away.

 

[RobertM]

Does the level 78 Kyogre not get Water Spout?

 

[tennisace]

good question. If it doesn't get Water Spout, Groudon can't have Eruption. Lets discuss this too.

 

[IggyBot]

Groudon won't use be using Eruption anyways, so it's irrelevant.

 

[Deck Knight]

good question. If it doesn't get Water Spout, Groudon can't have Eruption. Lets discuss this too.

Since Groudon and Kyogre learn Water Spout/Eruption at L80, there is no legal way to get them on L78 Groudon/Kyogre.

 

[Bass]

Well, I already made a weather team based on Kyogre, so I would like to continue testing testing under eric's division.

Still, given the few battles I have conducted with my weather team, I have a few things to note:

1) Kyogre, for the most part, was dead weight after it was sent out. So far I have tried EVing him defensively, but his stats are downgraded to the point where he is inferior to most OU special walls defensively and other rain sweepers like Kingdra offensively (Max Speed is only 358 with Choice Scarf). Kyogre wasn't really vital to my victories at all, in fact, unless I ran into an opposing weather team (which I haven't so far), I could simply let Kyogre die and allow a free switch in for a rain sweeper, knowing that the rain would continue to fall unless another opposing weather team.

2) Speaking of rain sweepers, Kingdra is just beyond powerful. Almost all of my wins were basically Kingdra sweeps, with a Life Orb, Kingdra can OHKO and pretty much out-speed most OU sweepers in the entire game. In fact, the rain also allows it to function well enough as a mixed sweeper to the point in which it can 2HKO pretty much any OU pokemon. In the words of IggyBot, Kingdra really is the number 1 threat in the game (under rain that is)

3) Thanks to the fact that the rain is automatic, type coverage is less of an issue. A lot of sets in the analyses for Rain Dance sweepers and supporters use Rain Dance. They also have other options which require you to choose a move, such as Grass Knot/Ice Beam on Ludicolo or Draco Meteor/Ice Beam on Kingdra, depending on what type coverage you need. With Kyogre's Drizzle being automatic AND permanent, it is no longer necessary to make such decisions, as this creates enough move slots for these pokemon to fully utilize type coverage and making these pokemon even more difficult to counter.

4. The only commonly used pokemon that can decently stall against a rain team are mainly Gyarados and Celebi. However, Kingdra, thanks to the above explanation, can 2HKO both with Draco Meteor and Ice Beam respectively, the only issue is switching him in of course. Ludicolo can switch in on pretty much any attack both of them throw at it and do decent damage to both as well. The key word is that they can stall, not counter.

5) Overall, I am leaning on level 78 Kyogre being broken not because of the rain's effects but because it is permanent, allowing me to play conservative and only send in sweepers like Kingdra at good opportunities. Of course, I haven't encountered other weather teams so far, so I am sure the results would be quite different since this ends the permanence of the rain, not to mention Kyogrette is already in the works of testing temporary rain. This leads me to consider that if other weather teams are needed to keep the permanence of weather effects in check, will the metagame become overly reliant on weather? Maybe I am dwelling too much on this, so I will need to test this team a bit more to come up with a more accurate conclusion.

 

[Aldaron]

Whoa whoa I think my intentions were completely misunderstood. I have no desire to lead the divisions, lol. I just figured such a prominent test for the server should have been discussed a little more, that's all.

Anyway, I do NOT want to lead a division; I simply do not have the time.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'll make two new species on the server -- Groudino and Kyogrette. They will have the abilities "Dry Spell" and "Wet Spell". These abilities will have a 5-turn limit AND be subject to Damp Rock and Heat Rock. That way, you can test 5-turn and 8-turn auto-weather just by switching items.

THESE NEW SPECIES ARE ONLY TEMPORARY. I will ban them from the OU ladder. I don't want everybody using these pokes. I'd prefer to only have the testing teams using these pokes and the rest of the server ignores them.

Just for visual identification purposes, I need a slightly different sprite for these pokes. I guess I can nerf the regular colors or something like that, but it would be nice if we had something a little better. If someone is willing to fuse new Groudino and Kyogrette sprites from the regular Groudon and Kyogre sprites, I'll use them. Just post them here in .PNG format.

After this test is over, Groudino and Kyogrette will be deleted from the server.

 

[RobertM]

Just for visual identification purposes, I need a slightly different sprite for these pokes. I guess I can nerf the regular colors or something like that, but it would be nice if we had something a little better. If someone is willing to fuse new Groudino and Kyogrette sprites from the regular Groudon and Kyogre sprites, I'll use them. Just post them here in .PNG format.

Crappy MSP job time!

I have no inspiration for mini-groudon but I figured that a weak kyogre would be a kyogre without wingfins.

 

[Deck Knight]

Just from my testing under what would be "Red Team" Guidlines:

I've had 3 battles and 3 wins, even against pokemon that would be problematic for a sun team (Hi Toxistalling Roostres).

The only time I even thought about using Groudon was as a starter against a Yanmega hoping to hit it with Stone Edge for a quick KO. Otherwise Heatran is a beast as predicted, as is Exeggutor. I haven't run into any other weather teams thus far so my reporting is incomplete. I hope to test it against Rain Dance teams considering I have two pokemon set up if just such an instance were to occur, who are unimpeded by Sun.

For my final pokemon I have another Flash Fire pokemon. My only problem has been Fire Blast misses. Otherwise Heatran, Exeggutor, and my Water counters tend to set enemies up for defeat.

 

[Dane]

Here's the formula I used to get a general level spread for Kyogre/Groudon, which X-Act later pinpointed with a more finely tuned process.

As for moves, I thought the general idea in lowering their level was just for BL stats rather than Uber stats. I was under the impression their movepools would stay the same, though I suppose it doesn't matter too much since it's pretty much just Earth Power and Eruption for Groudon (special attack isn't even close to as high as his attack) and Water Spout for Kyogre (slow doesn't help this).

 

[Mr. Hadwick]

If at all possible I would like to join pink team, as I've been running and refining a sun team for the last couple of weeks.

 

[Cooper]

I'll accept the leadership role of Red Team, because since the leader of a group is usually red, that would make my team the leader. Also I can now assume the title Commandante Cooper.

In all seriousness though, what exactly is my role in this? I'm supposed to rally a team, put thought into making a team centered around a Lv. 78 Groudon, and find out what beats it? Seems interesting.

 

[X-Act]

To clarify how the Level 78 came to be:

The non-EVed stats for Level 78 Groudon (having base stats 100 / 150 / 140 / 100 / 90 / 90) are the following:

HP: 268
Atk: 263
Def: 247
SpA: 185
SpD: 169
Spe: 169

If these were the stats of a Level 100 Pokemon with no EVs, the base stats would be:

63.5 / 113.5 / 105.5 / 74.5 / 66.5 / 66.5

This translates to

Physical Sweepiness: 136 (Good)
Physical Tankiness: 120 (Above Average)
Special Sweepiness: 95 (Average)
Special Tankiness: 82 (Moderately Bad)

Calculating the Base Stats Rating of such a Pokemon (my applet doesn't allow this since it doesn't accept decimal base stats) gives a rating of 220. Abomasnow's rating is 218, so Groudon's rating at Level 78 is slightly better than that of Abomasnow at Level 100. However, EVs at Level 78 count for less than for Level 100, so this balances out.

For the record, Abomasnow's stats are:

Physical Sweepiness: 105 (Average)
Physical Tankiness: 108 (Average)
Special Sweepiness: 105 (Average)
Special Tankiness: 119 (Above Average)

So Abomasnow has less attacking prowess but better defenses than Level 78 Groudon/Kyogre.

For Kyogre it's the same thing, except with Atk, Def, PS and PT switched with SpA, SpD, SS and ST respectively.

 

[Stall]

I've been gone from Smogon for a couple of weeks due to RL reasons, but now that I'm back, I'd love to be on the White team, mainly since I've been using a Hail team for over 2 months in OU play.

edit - leaving town for the long weekend. Don't expect anything from me until Monday.

 

[Cooley]

I would like to be added to the Pink Team please.

 

[RobertM]

Does the level 78 Kyogre not get Water Spout?

Disregard this post. I didn't realize it's learned at level 75 in RSE... I was thinking D/P only.

 

[Time Mage]

I'd like to contribute to the "Clear Team". I think it's very important to find if a non-weather team (better, SEVERAL weather teams) can go toe to toe with the weather teams. We know that's possible against Sandstorm and Hail, but we'll have to find against rain and sun.

 

[tennisace]

Time Mage, since Aldaron doesn't want to be leader, you can be leader. Aldaron, let me know if you want to be on the roster.

Edit: Back in the day, i used to sprite. I can get those up probably by the end of the night. If not maybe KoA can.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'd like to contribute to the "Clear Team". I think it's very important to find if a non-weather team (better, SEVERAL weather teams) can go toe to toe with the weather teams. We know that's possible against Sandstorm and Hail, but we'll have to find against rain and sun.

QFT.

This is really the biggest thing I want to know. If several well-made non-weather teams can't compete with a Rain or Sun team without resorting to gimmicks -- then we have a problem.

Early indications show that perma-weather is quite strong. Maybe, the turn limits will help even it out. Should be fun to test.

We need a lot more testers to sign up.