-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 3 (New Evolution/New Pokemon Discussion)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
- Status
People stop saying it does not limit us it does.
1.You have limited movepool
2.You have limited egg pool
3.Limited pokemon design
The list could go on some more,A new pokemon is options are limitless.An evo of old pokemon has a framework that you have to work with stop acting like this not truth.
Sunflora Evolution
You know it needs one.
You know it needs one.
I know that making an evo instead of starting from whole cloth is limited, but personally, that doesn't bother me. I know going in what "my favorite NU" is already capable of. The idea is to take a collection of limits and expand it until it is viable. The egg moves may be locked, but adding a new type opens the door for a flood of new options. Gallade is probably the best example. Kirlia has a SAtk bias at 65 to 35 which is intended to lead into 135 vs 65. Gallade evolves from Kirlia, but it picks up precisely 0 points in SAtk. Instead it puts a massive 90 points into Atk. Scizor is even stranger. It has the same BST as Scyther but is 40 Base Spd lower.
That's a special pokemon turning into a physical pokemon and a sweeper turning into a tank. There's nothing to say we can't do something just as odd if we change a type.
(There may be more options for a new pokemon than for an evo, but, in the end, we will only create one pokemon.)
That's a special pokemon turning into a physical pokemon and a sweeper turning into a tank. There's nothing to say we can't do something just as odd if we change a type.
(There may be more options for a new pokemon than for an evo, but, in the end, we will only create one pokemon.)
Luck, at least have the courtesy to read the post before you take something out of context.
If you bothered to even attempt to read my post you will note that I already stated it would work within the guidelines set for a Pokemon, but that there was no reason that you couldn't use these guidelines as a jump to improve the Pokemon.
Also, please do not misquote me. I said it does not really limit us, not that it does not limit us. Thank you very much.
Also, no one is claiming you do not have a framework. It is all about the detail of the framework. After all, even when creating new Pokemon, it is not like the framework does not exist. We are giving it BST from 450-600, it is one of the 17 types, etc. Your post is wholly irrelevant and really not helpful to discussion at all. It is obvious that everyone works within a framework.
However, working within the framework of an "incomplete" Pokemon, as I defined it, is very liberal. There are countless ways we could approach it. So please, spare me your condescending attitude.
If you bothered to even attempt to read my post you will note that I already stated it would work within the guidelines set for a Pokemon, but that there was no reason that you couldn't use these guidelines as a jump to improve the Pokemon.
Also, please do not misquote me. I said it does not really limit us, not that it does not limit us. Thank you very much.
Also, no one is claiming you do not have a framework. It is all about the detail of the framework. After all, even when creating new Pokemon, it is not like the framework does not exist. We are giving it BST from 450-600, it is one of the 17 types, etc. Your post is wholly irrelevant and really not helpful to discussion at all. It is obvious that everyone works within a framework.
However, working within the framework of an "incomplete" Pokemon, as I defined it, is very liberal. There are countless ways we could approach it. So please, spare me your condescending attitude.
How many times do we have to tell you people that only Topic Leaders can post updates on bold vote totals? Pay attention!
The random new poster I can understand, but you eric? Give me a break.
And I would support a new evo for a pokemon, were this not a completely new type that has absolutely no precedent. There is no grass type that even gets fire moves (outside lol Sunny Day), and most of the fire types you'd like to evolve are Stone Evolvers anyway.
Only Ninetales and Infernape even learn a Grass move outside Solarbeam. Infernape is fully evolved and Ninetales doesn't transition to grass well.
The random new poster I can understand, but you eric? Give me a break.
And I would support a new evo for a pokemon, were this not a completely new type that has absolutely no precedent. There is no grass type that even gets fire moves (outside lol Sunny Day), and most of the fire types you'd like to evolve are Stone Evolvers anyway.
Only Ninetales and Infernape even learn a Grass move outside Solarbeam. Infernape is fully evolved and Ninetales doesn't transition to grass well.
Personally I don't mind if someone did a vote count and posted it, though I more like it if they pm me with it the posting it in public. I also like to say that a certain person need to make up his damn mind and stick to one choice =/
Just a thought, but a jack-o'-lantern themed Pokemon could make since with Fire/Grass typing.
Er....it adapt into it's climate so well it grew fins???? I suppose the eevee family is excluded from most ruling since of their weird evolving methods.
It could also be made into a Grass/Ghost pokemon but that not point. The point I was making is that you're idea can be placed onto a few type combo very well, all equally good.
This idea was mentioned quite a lot when grass/fire almost was chosen during the CAP Deux project. I was hooked on the idea then. I have already sketched three designs for a Jack-o-lantern pokemon, and I'll probably do more as we firm up additional concepts.
Whoops, I guess it was already mentioned. I'm definately looking forward to seeing your designs, though.
Ummm...Eevee is so obviously an anomaly that I am unsure as to whether I should respect that post or not. Eevee evolves into 7 different pokemon, all of different types, and all of which have a 130, 110, 95, 65, 65, 60 Base stat spread. MAYBE, just maybe...that should not be considered a precedent. Yes, it technically is, but you should also exercise some amount of judgement when you are making a very important argument.
On the other hand, poke's that do actually change type (not lose or gain) when they evolve include Swablu, Scyther, Onix, Surskit, Nincada, Burmy, Skorupi, Pupitar, and Seadra. Of those, over half (5/9) are or were Bugs.
(Eevee's not included see above...)
I believe that should kill the point of changing a pokemon's type. We probably should not be doing that. I can see adding the Fire or Grass type to an existing poke, but we cannot just take, for example, a Grass/Poison and give it another evolution into Fire. This limits our slection there, and our egg moves and movepools and BST are also severely inhibited. Do not say otherwise, you are very wrong. (you being anybody)
Could it have something to do with the fact Eevee is classified as the Evolution pokemon and has been ever since RBY Dex?
Eevee's whole shtick is radiation-enduced evolution, although DP added a few weird ways just because they couldn't randomly create new stones.
Evolution Pokemon.
Water Stone = Water type.
Thunder Stone = Electric type
Fire Stone = Fire type
Plus, when abilities came out, the Stone Evo Eons all got abilities that nuetralized damage from their type. Espy and Umby got Synchronize, and Leafon and Glaceon got type-specific abilities.
Really, you're barking up the wrong tree if you're citing Eevee as an example of arbitrary type --> arbitrary type. Almost nothing in pokemon is arbitrary, spare maybe Focus Punch Wooper.
Also since I don't want to Double-Post:
A New Evolution is not a blank slate. You WILL have to bring over old abilities or old characteristics.
Lets take the Sunflora example for instance:
Sunflora abilities:
Chlorophyll
Solar Power
Sunflora Stats:
75/75/55/105/85/30. Total: 425.
So lets say we want to bring this up to 510.
What would make sense given Sunflora's stats is a big increase in Special Attack, a moderate increase in HP and Attack, and a minor increase in Defense and speed. But say you want a Clorophyll sweeper. Alright, one waymight be to boost speed to 55, so the max w/out nature is 209. Boost SA to 125 since that seems to work.
75/75/55/125/85/55. Total: 470.
So with 40 points left to alocate, to keep it somewhat Sunflora-ey, send 10 to HP, 10 to Attack, 5 to Def, and 15 to SD.
85/85/60/125/100/55. Total: 510. This still looks somewhat reminiscent of Sunflora.
Here's the thing though. This is totally incompatible with anything other than Special Offensive or Special Balanced. Choosing to evolve Sunflora pidgeonholed a lot of other votes, at least if you're following my logic here.
Not to mention we already have two abilities. I'd have a hard time justifying getting rid of Solar Power or Chlorophyll for Flash Fire.
Yes I'm aware of that little fact, I'm merely making fun of the fact the ability is already telling you your answer.
I really can't explain it but I think it has to do with some invisible rule that fan-boys swear upon.
If you are talking about me here, I still want a new lion pokemon, but I was getting pretty tired of the "limited evo is limited" posts going around, so I chipped in in its defense.
Also, I have art for this idea already. I had to draw it. It was too good and too complete of a concept for me to leave alone, whether or not it is actually used. Is it okay to show around to people who ask?
I was referring to Azican. I was aware you was defending the new evolution discussion.
If anyone actually want to see it, sure...you can show people it.
Lol Deck Knight, you basically just made two points, and then countered them by yourself.
The rest of your post was super arbitrary, so I'll just let it stand haha.
Anyway, the point is that:
a.)since there is no problem with changing the Grass primary typing to Fire and making Grass the secondary typing (primary types have already been changed before, Eevee and Onix)
b.)since Sunflora's BST is only 425 (the point here is that something like Shellgon, with only 420 BST, changed dramatically when it was evolved into 600 BST Salamence)
c.)since certain characteristics might be necessary to act as guidelines but not stringent law
we certainly have both the precedent to create this Pokemon and the ability to be rather creative in doing so.
EDIT: Jesus, I seem like the main supporter of an evolution lol. I'd just like to reiterate that I want a new Pokemon, ahaha.
Well obviously, that isn't Eevee's whole "schtick." Eevee's whole "schtick" is just arbitrary evolution. You yourself have stated it.
Uhhh, so what? No one said the new evolution wasn't going to get a type specific ability...Though, once again, what exactly does Synchronize have to do with Psychic and Dark? Maybe a lot of Psychic's have it, but a lot of Dark's certainly do not.
Well, you just spared me the time of finding an arbitrary example.
No one said it was a blank state. If they did, they are certainly not in agreement with me. However, you certainly do not have to bring over old abilities. Again, I cite the Eeveelutions, Shellgon -> Salamence, Pupitar -> Tyranitar, etc. Actually...what characteristics does Salamence share with Shellgon, lol? Sure, similar movesets, but the Ability change, addition of the Flying type, addition of a few arbitrary moves like Earthquake seriously change what Shellgon does as Salamence.
The rest of your post was super arbitrary, so I'll just let it stand haha.
Anyway, the point is that:
a.)since there is no problem with changing the Grass primary typing to Fire and making Grass the secondary typing (primary types have already been changed before, Eevee and Onix)
b.)since Sunflora's BST is only 425 (the point here is that something like Shellgon, with only 420 BST, changed dramatically when it was evolved into 600 BST Salamence)
c.)since certain characteristics might be necessary to act as guidelines but not stringent law
we certainly have both the precedent to create this Pokemon and the ability to be rather creative in doing so.
EDIT: Jesus, I seem like the main supporter of an evolution lol. I'd just like to reiterate that I want a new Pokemon, ahaha.
I have enjoyed reading the debate in this thread. Some people's arguments have made me soften my opinion against pre-evo's. I guess there could be some interesting dynamics to that sort of project, and maybe it would be an interesting change of pace.
But, I still don't see ANY competitive value in choosing to evolve an existing pokemon. Absolutely none. It only provides competitive drawbacks. With that in mind, I'm going to resort to namecalling -- and I'm gonna use the F-word, so small children beware.
All you people arguing for a new evo are being.... fanboys. *gasp!*
There it is, the dreaded F-bomb. But, it's true. Since a pre-evo really doesn't have any competitive advantage, it must be that you just really like certain pokemon and can't bear to see them less-than-OU. It's OK, really. We all have our little inner fanboy that tugs at our hearts, even when our intelligent thinking brain tells us otherwise.
Like all this love for Sunflora, a completely worthless piece of shit pokemon in the metagame. But it's such a cute little sunflower... it could be so much more.... if we just gave it a little help.
I'm the doctor, and I have a diagnosis --- we have a severe outbreak of fanboy in this thread.
We had a similar outbreak of fanboy in the Revenankh thread, when everyone started gushing about Banette, the saddest little wannabe pokemon in the whole game. Poor little dead ragdoll.... it just needed a little TLC and could have been a big, strong Fighting Ghost. Classic presentation symptoms of late-stage fanboy.
So what is all this talk about pokemon that "NEED" an evolution? I'm not seeing it. What is the definition of a pokemon that "needs" an evolution? Every pokemon in the game that isn't currently viable in competitive play? That's what it sounds like. Because I'm sure every one of those garbage pokes probably has a diehard fanboy out there that loves it dearly.
We sometimes indulge our inner fanboys here on the CAP project. Heck, we even mention it specifically in the project mission statement. But we also mention that it takes a back seat to the competitive aspects of the pokemon. We CAN make a pre-evo, if we want. And I suspect we will someday. If anything, just to say that we did it. But, we won't do it because it is the best thing for the metagame. We'll do it because we are all sappy little fanboys at heart.
C'mon, just admit it....
But, I still don't see ANY competitive value in choosing to evolve an existing pokemon. Absolutely none. It only provides competitive drawbacks. With that in mind, I'm going to resort to namecalling -- and I'm gonna use the F-word, so small children beware.
All you people arguing for a new evo are being.... fanboys. *gasp!*
There it is, the dreaded F-bomb. But, it's true. Since a pre-evo really doesn't have any competitive advantage, it must be that you just really like certain pokemon and can't bear to see them less-than-OU. It's OK, really. We all have our little inner fanboy that tugs at our hearts, even when our intelligent thinking brain tells us otherwise.
Like all this love for Sunflora, a completely worthless piece of shit pokemon in the metagame. But it's such a cute little sunflower... it could be so much more.... if we just gave it a little help.
I'm the doctor, and I have a diagnosis --- we have a severe outbreak of fanboy in this thread.
We had a similar outbreak of fanboy in the Revenankh thread, when everyone started gushing about Banette, the saddest little wannabe pokemon in the whole game. Poor little dead ragdoll.... it just needed a little TLC and could have been a big, strong Fighting Ghost. Classic presentation symptoms of late-stage fanboy.
So what is all this talk about pokemon that "NEED" an evolution? I'm not seeing it. What is the definition of a pokemon that "needs" an evolution? Every pokemon in the game that isn't currently viable in competitive play? That's what it sounds like. Because I'm sure every one of those garbage pokes probably has a diehard fanboy out there that loves it dearly.
We sometimes indulge our inner fanboys here on the CAP project. Heck, we even mention it specifically in the project mission statement. But we also mention that it takes a back seat to the competitive aspects of the pokemon. We CAN make a pre-evo, if we want. And I suspect we will someday. If anything, just to say that we did it. But, we won't do it because it is the best thing for the metagame. We'll do it because we are all sappy little fanboys at heart.
C'mon, just admit it....
^ In simple terms: We will make a evolution off some shitty pokemon(read: Luvdisc), when we feel like it but for right now we don't feel like it so take a hike. lol
Whatever lets you sleep at night Aldaron. It is still radiation enduced evolution, aside from the oddball case in GSC where it was Sunlight/Moonlight, although Colleseum screwed that up too with Sun/Moon Shards. Either way it is all radiation in some form or another. Espeon and Umbreon are essentially supposed to be two sides of the same coin.
And I'd only start calling Eevee;s evolution arbitrary if he had something like a Normal type Evo at Level 42. Eevee evolves into nothing without meeting specific conditions.
Espeon and Umbreon are a set. You could also blame Colleseum and XD marketing for it.
So I take it you aren't familiar with the process of metamorphosis. Essentially Salamence is the realization of Bagon's dream to fly (from the dex entry). The only one being arbitrary here is you, attributing "arbitrariness" to expanded movepools or other fairly self-explanatory traits.
Actually it was perfectly logical. You might want to pretend everything that doesn't let you free your fancy to warp pre-existing creatures into something entirely different on, dare I say, an arbitrary basis, is somehow just a stifling of creativity, but the fact is if you want to make a new evo you have to respect the creature you are evolving.
Rock --> Steel isn't a giant logical leap and you're spinning your wheels trying to gain any traction with Eevee. In a best case scenario it is an outlier in the world of pokemon.
I've actually warmed up to the idea of a Sunflora evolution, but I want to make sure this isn't cart blanche for whatever zany ideas people come up with. I don't care how much you think Farfetch'd/Sunflora/Banette/Dunsparse suck, you can't just spontaneously add types and completely forget a pokemon's characteristics when you evolve it.
- Status