Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Suspect Nomination and Discussion Thread

[Pocket]

ATTN: Do NOT nominate Sleep Clause; it WILL be tested

First of all, thank you to those who have participated in this test! We are now moving to the second stage of the test, where qualified players can nominate suspects and anyone can discuss on said nominated suspects.

Here are what is required when nominating a suspect:

1. Bold your nomination
2. Elaborate why you believe the suspect should be voted - a nomination with no explanations would NOT be counted
3. Bold "No Suspects," if you believe that the current metagame is stable, diverse, and enjoyable, with no excessively powerful or obscenely centralizing element in the game. A brief explanation as to why you came to this conclusion is of course required.

I will keep the Doubles Alt Thread open while the discussion is taking place here, so that new users can qualify for nominations / clear the laddering req portion to qualify for voting rights.

The council will be determining the suspects at the end of next weekend, so your job is to convince the council to agree with your nomination.

Also the eligible voter pool are determined at the end of this weekend, so please make sure to review the qualifications to vote:

Qualifications to Vote

1. Attain ladder reqs outlined above (ignore this if you already met this requirement to qualify for the nomination stage)
2. Contribute productively to the metagame and suspect discussions
3. Earn a minimum of 5 points in the leaderboard

• • Earning 25+ leaderboard points during the month(s) the suspect stage is running (December + January) will exempt you from the ladder reqs

The ladder requirements are loose, because we value community involvement and contributions over ladder performance. It takes very little contribution to earn 5 points, though x_x

It's worth noting that the council will be especially looking for your participation in discussion that take place in Metagame Discussion Thread and This Suspect Discussion Thread when picking the voters, so please let your voice be heard!

Here are the users who are qualified to nominate:

1. -Tsunami- (6 pts)
2. Arcticblast (14 pts)
3. Ash Borer - No Suspects
4. Audiosurfer (25+ pts) - No Suspects
5. AuraRayquaza (8 pts) - Kangaskhanite
6. BlankZero (9 pts) - Kangaskhanite and Charizardite Y
7. BLINGAS ♥
   
8. BLOOD TOTEM (4 pts) - Kangaskhanite
9. D-Quag (32 pts)
10. dcae
11. Deoxymoron (4 pts)
12. Ezio (5 pts) - No Suspects
13. finally (5 pts) - Kangaskhanite
14. Gyarad0s
15. Haruno (7 pts) - No Suspects
16. Icecream (9 pts) - No Suspects
17. Joim (4 pts) - No Suspects
18. kingofkongs (5 pts)
19. Laga (10 pts) - Kangaskhanite
20. Lasagne (15 pts) - "No Suspects" / Lugia, Giratina-O, Evasion clauses
21. Laurel - No Suspects
22. Level 51 (4 pts) - Giratina-O
23. Lolkomori (6 pts) - No Suspects
24. Magcargo 2 (1 pt) - No Suspects
25. Mizuhime (13 pts) - No Suspects
    
26. Nollan (8 pts) - No Suspects
27. nyttyn (1 pt) - Kangaskhanite
28. Pwnemon (4 pts) - No Suspects
29. Robert Alfons - Giratina-O
30. sanches br
31. srk1214 (5 pts) - Kangaskhanite
32. Swamp-Rocket - No Suspects
33. The Leprechaun
34. Ultimathunder (5 pts)
35. VarunR (2 pts)
36. youngjake93 (19 pts) - Giratina-O

I will update this list if new users identify their qualified alts in the Alt Identification thread. This way, new users can nominate and be considered for voting rights.

At the conclusion of this thread (which was supposed to be two days ago what the hell Pocket), all the people who reached reqs (5 leaderboard points, the battling reqs, and posts in the metagame discussion or suspect nomination threads) will vote from among any suspects that have been nominated and council-approved. At the moment, it looks like that's going to be Kangaskhanite, though it could be more or less than one suspect in future rounds. A 2/3 majority vote against the status quo is needed to effect any change. Once this first test is done, assuming that nothing becomes eminently broken to the council, we will proceed to a Sleep Clause test. If an Uber is voted to be unbanned, it will be dropped directly into the Doubles ladder. If said Uber is obviously broken, the council will quick ban it.

 

[blarajan]

did you steal my system

Pocket EDIT: kinda sorta

 

[hyperbeem]

No Suspect

Honestly, it's just that simple, nothing is broken at the moment. It seems the Pokemon with the most complaints are Mega Kanga, Zard-Y, and Mega Gar, but those can both be checked easily. I think the main reason nothing is broken is because doubles is based more upon a system of checks than a system of counters. I play a lot more singles, in which bulkier teams usually include hard counters to prominent threats. In doubles though, it's all about maintaining momentum by making sure you always have your checks up against the opponent's threats. In addition, it's a lot harder for a single Pokemon to sweep when it has to eliminate two threats per turn rather than one. By this reasoning, my standard for determining if a threat is broken is if it has "no viable checks". What I mean by this is that a Pokemon is broken if you're forced to use obscure and otherwise useless Pokemon or multiple Pokemon to check it. ...and nothing forces this /endreason

 

[Haruno]

No Suspect

Honestly the metagame seems balanced in the sense that nothing is too over centralizing and even if there is something that is arguably over centralizing (cough zard Y cough cough) it isn't broken to the point where it doesn't have solid/common answers. In fact some of zard Y's answers are but not limited to, tytar/heatran/toad which are all solid mons in themselves as opposed to running absolute obscure/"inferior" shit to counter mons (think shed shell heatran during genetrio days in BW2 or reflect latias during landkeldtar days). As far as bannings (in Ou are concerned) a mon has never been banned for being over centralizing but rather a mon/ability is banned for being broken/uncompetitive. Does it put a constraint on team building that we must have an answer to sun offense? Most certainly but the same can be said for things like heatran, trick room, good stuff. In fact all of the above put a constraint on team building because we absolutely must have an answer to those or risk being outright swept where as opposed to zard Y who has very common answers. So if we're going to nominate zard Y for being overcentralizing/powerful then I'd like to nominate trick room/dragons/rain/sand/physical attackers and more unlisted things just for the fact that we must have an answer to all these things in order to have a successful doubles team. Obviously we wouldn't suspect all those different play styles but they undoubtedly restrict our team building and not to mention that they all are incredible powerful play styles. So due to these reasons I do not see a point in suspecting anything in the current meta on the basis of being overcentralizing or restrictive on team building.

Nollan has talked about a potential
Suspect from ubers and testing to see if it would be usable in the current doubles metagame and I think that this train of thought is worth discussing but I suppose that is a topic for another time.

I apologize if my post is incorrect or straight out incomprehensible n_n

 

[Bughouse]

If we were to go about this using the traditional requirements that singles metagames used, I would absolutely understand not suspecting anything. Indeed, very little can truly singlehandedly provided too much power or support in the Doubles metagame to become individually broken. So I don't think that's a particularly useful angle to look at things. Just because no single Pokemon has proven to be uncounterable or uncheckable does not mean the metagame is perfectly balanced. Indeed, many of the best methods to check or counter a foe can be played around. As an example, you might choose to rely on Stone Edge to beat Charizard-Y, expecting Wide Guard support, only to instead be facing Rage Powder Amoonguss, wishing you had Rock Slide instead. You may be decently equipped to deal with Heatran, but utterly helpless against one that has been Skill Swapped Levitate (sorry if that's too soon.)

Doubles is a metagame all about your team's Pokemon supporting one another to overcome your opponent. There's no such thing as singlehandedly winning a match, so relying on a perspective based in singles seems counterintuitive.

A better standard in my opinion is if a Pokemon performs substantially better than its potential replacements given the same amount of support from teammates or if a Pokemon supports its teammates substantially better than any other supporters could. Now, this isn't necessarily grounds for being suspected. It ultimately comes down to a judgment call of when that performance is just too good to ignore.

By this standard, I personally view Kangaskhanite as worthy of being suspected. While not super obviously broken in either regard, Kangaskhanite toes the line on both. Mega Kangaskhan is the best priority user in the tier, boasting both Fake Out (which can even hit Ghosts prior to Mega Evolving) and Sucker Punch off of quite high power. These attributes can be seen as providing deadly team support, such as when it is used as a lead in combination with Deoxys-A. And unlike its competitors in the priority support realm, Mega Kangaskhan is also gifted with hefty bulk after Mega Evolving, along with a way to Swords Dance and actually sweep. Power-Up Punch even enables Mega Kangaskhan to shrug off Intimidates from Landorus-T & co. While it can't sweep the same way it could in OU, Mega Kangaskhan is not truly vulnerable in Doubles either, despite facing two opponents, since it can benefit greatly from Follow Me, among other support moves. For me, the ability to use a single set that simultaneously provides very strong team support while also posing a win-condition threat pushes the boundaries a little too much for my taste. It can be played around, but not easily and not without having a somewhat distorting effect on the metagame.

 

[youngjake93]

I nominate Giratina-O for suspect testing!
120 Special Attack with 85 BP Dragon Pulse, 80 BP Shadow Ball and Draco Meteor lowering sAtt as its best options is not scary at all.

150/100/100 bulk isn't that scary either. It is like dealing with Cresselia if Cresselia had 2 more weaknesses and 10% less bulk.
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 270-320 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 294-348 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 216-254 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 254-300 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Giratina-O is comparable to Aegislash and Kyurem-Black in a lot of ways. Neither of which are even close to broken or even popular choices. So keep in mind that even if you feel that Giratina-O outclasses these options, it would have to outclass them by A LOT for it to be broken.

Giratina-O Ghost/Dragon: 150/120/100/120/100/90
Kyurem-B Ice/Dragon: 125/170/100/120/90/95
Aegislash Ghost/Steel: 60/50/150/50/150/60 or 60/150/50/150/50/60

What you may be thinking right now is OK but Giratina-O has a nicer support and offensive movepool than those two. Well in practice, Giratina-O can't do it all. You only have so many EVs, so many moveslots and you can only choose one move per turn. If you choose to lean defensively, Aegislash has Wide Guard, King's Shield, arguably better defensive typing AND much higher offensive stats. If you choose to lean offensively, Kyurem-B has 170 attack and more speed.

Although not a reason to suspect on its own, it is worth noting that the three major suspect candidates: Charizardite Y, Heatran and Kangaskhanite are all walled by Giratina-O. This could be the counter the meta is looking for.

Also, I have tried battling against Giratina-O with an standard team in a few battles and it was underwhelming in my opinion. I would like the opportunity to get a larger sample size through a suspect test.

I totally understand how powerful Giratina-O is and that it will have a large impact on the metagame, but I am suspicious of whether it will be overbearing/over-centralizing for now until I see it in the meta.

 

[Pocket]

srk1214 has posted an excellent post when nominating a suspect. Please give it a good read and emulate his post when writing your own noms! If you are discussing about Kangaskhan's suspect-worthiness, please respond to the points that srk1214 have presented, especially the crux of his argument:

"For me, the ability to use a single set that simultaneously provides very strong team support (powerful priority Fake Out + Sucker Punch) while also posing a win-condition threat pushes the boundaries a little too much for my taste. It can be played around, but not easily and not without having a somewhat distorting effect on the metagame."​

 

[nyttyn]

Mega Kangaskhan/Kangaskhanite

The meta is pretty stable, yes. There are answers to all the overpowered mons, yes. But people are applying a singles definition of broken to doubles - in doubles, it is actually possible to check the overpowered threats, and no potential suspect speaks volumes about that like Mega Kangaskhan. While, like any other physical attacker, it can be stopped by Will-o-Wisp, speed control, double targeting, and most of all Intimidate, it is still heads and tails better then any other physical attacker in the game. To the point where it simply outclasses every other physical attacker, with 100 base speed, access to Fake Out and Sucker Punch, enomous levels of damage, and quite frankly disgusting bulk for such a powerful physical attacker. It just simply has too high stats, with too good of a move pool, to the point where its power is unhealthy enough to warrent a suspect test. A Fake Out that can provide 50%~ or more damage, a Sucker Punch that can easily flat out OHKO/2HKO many mons, a enormously powerful Return that can OHKO a high majority of the tier, and powerful bulk stats that can let it live past many attacks that would fell other attackers all combine to provide an attacker that simply outclasses any other physical attacker in the tier by a significantly large margin.

 

[termi]

I actually agree with suspecting Giratina-O, because I feel like it's mostly banned rn because it's got 680 BST, but there's a couple of things that keep it from being broken/centralizing I think:

- It's forced to hold Griseous Orb. While this is by no means a bad item, it means it forces him into more offensive roles, as he can't hold Sitrus or Chesto for more durability.
- Its typing is a mixed bag. While it gives it some really cool resistances, it's also got 5 common weaknesses, and with a middling speed it's going to take hits quite often.
- Its bulk, while great, is again, severely dented by the fact that it has no form of reliable recovery whatsoever. It's worn down really easily, meaning it can't wall things eternally.

I know that its nice support movepool (3 forms of speed control and Will-o-Wisp), its great bulk and its power might be discouraging, but I don't think it's enough to be over-centralizing, and considering it can take on 3 top tier threats really well, it might be a healthy addition to the meta. I suggest we consider suspecting it, because as long as it doesn't become overcentralizing, it helps the meta becoming healthier without having to ban something that is not deemed OP at all.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

Kangaskhanite

I agree with nyttyn that the metagame is in a nice state at the moment, i feel that mega kangaskhan is a bit too overcentralising. While it does not work on every team, it can just be added to most teams without much thought. For example, ShakeitUp mentioned in the discussion that he just swapped breloom for mega kangaskhan. He may have been losing a water resist and spore user, but when you can have a pokemon with 2 forms of priority, a super powerful return, and a coverage move capable of giving it a swords dance boost, all with what is essentially a choice band boost, there really is no contest.

In mega kangaskhan you have a good supporter with fake out, as you can stall the mega evo to hit ghosts with scrappy. However, you also have great priority in sucker punch, with mega kanga being the fastest viable user of it bar mega absol (who is rarely used). You also have return, which virtually ohkos every non resist. Finally you have power up punch, which deals damage while giving a SD boost and is good coverage on steels. It also negates intimidate and turns it into +1, still a huge threat. A max bulk set can even be run with seismic toss, dealing a set 200 hp per turn.

Overall, im saying that mega kangaskhan has it all - great bulk (105/100/100), great speed (100) and great strength (125). Thus it can easily find itself on many teams with little to no thought.

(I also really like the idea of gira-o but i felt mega kanga needed testing first)

 

[hyperbeem]

Just a quick note, suspecting Gira-O would probably reduced Mega Kanga's effect on the meta strongly. Now obviously bringing down ubers to counter broken shit in OU is inappropriate, but since I personally feel Kanga is just slightly centralizing I think Gira-O would generally have a positive effect. Other people have already shown how weak it is in comparison with current doubles threats. The reason I posted No Suspects is because I didn't know that we are nominating Ubers for testing atm, if someone could clarify...?

 

[Laga]

- I have heard Pwnemon and kom on irc mention support towards a Sleep Clause lift, so this post will be having the mindset that it could be nominated.
- Also Charizardite Y has been discussed very thoroughly as very unfluential to teambuilding, both on irc and in the other discussion thread, and some are considering to want to suspect it some time sooner or later, so the same applies here.

The way I see the potential bans / lifts atm are two groups where the mons in the same group are reliant on each other in some way.

Category 1 = Kangaskhanite and Giratina-O

Obviously Mega Kangaskhan won't be anywhere near as good as it is atm if Giratina-O dropped, since it checks it near perfectly (mentioned by Ezio in the above post too), so if GiratinO dropped, I would personally see no reason to ban Kangaskhanite.

Category 2 (a bit more reliant on each other) = Sleep Clause and Charizardite Y

MegaZard Y is freaking powerful, but lifting Sleep Clause would make Chlorophyll sleep inducer + Zard extremely broken (kinda theorymon, but i doubt it would be anything less). Venusaur or whatever you choose to use can put as many mons to sleep as they want while Zard just breaks through everything. Furthermore, the only thing stopping Sleep Powder are Grass-types, who obviously cannot come close to handling a Heat Wave or Fire Blast in the sun from Charizard-Y. That said, if Charizardite Y ends up getting banned some time, then I cannot see anything against a Sleep Clause lift.

Just thought I'd quickly mention that some of the most discussed suspects are actually pretty dependant on each other for the metagame to flow properly.

 

[youngjake93]

Just a quick note, suspecting Gira-O would probably reduced Mega Kanga's effect on the meta strongly. Now obviously bringing down ubers to counter broken shit in OU is inappropriate, but since I personally feel Kanga is just slightly centralizing I think Gira-O would generally have a positive effect. Other people have already shown how weak it is in comparison with current doubles threats. The reason I posted No Suspects is because I didn't know that we are nominating Ubers for testing atm, if someone could clarify...?

Almost anything can be suspect tested. It is just a matter of if there is a real reason to suspect test it, if there is support for a suspect test and the council allows it. At least that is my understanding.

I feel simlarly to Laga on how sleep clause+Charizardite Y are related and Kanaskhanite+Girstina-O. I think those points should definitely be taken into account going forward.

I have been thinking more about the kanga and charY situation. I realized that if you look at top quality teams, they pack on average 4+ CharY/Heatran checks and rarely use anything that Kangaskhanite does outclasses(which is actually a lot, big ones are mega luke and mega cross). Also, if you compare this metagame to gen5, it is pretty blatant how centralizing these threats are. However, I am still of the opinion that they are not horribly difficult to deal with for now(although my spl team did have 6 charizard Y checks, intimidate, WoW AND mega kanga). I could see a suspect test being appropriate for either, but I'm not endorsing them yet to stay conservative.

I believe Giratina-O should get first dibs on suspect testing. It has gotten a lot of support, possibly more than Kanga and would be a strong counter to Kanga. Also, I feel it is important to note that we have lots of information on how dominating Kanga is in this meta.

I believe suspecting Giratina-O will be more useful because we know very little about how it will affect the metagame outside of theorymon.

Finally, dealing with Mega Kangaskhan is sort of just like dealing with any physical attacker, such as CB Cube. The meta hasn't really shaped too much around it because it is worthwile to carry Kanga checks to also check Cube and Mega Luke. The biggest change I foresee if kanga leaves is more variation for physical attackers. However, it is also worthwhile to note that Kangaskhan provides a lot of variety to the pool of Fake Out users. Currently the only other good Fake Out user for outside of TR is Hitmontop(with Ludi amd Scrafty having some use) which has taken a hit with Fighting Gem removal. I believe that having both options for Fake Out has opened up viability for Substitute users such as Zygarde and frail attackers such as Deo-A and Skymin. These choices would be much less viable with a more restricted pool of Fake Out user choices.

In conclusion, suspect tests are primarily about getting more insight before making any changes. Suspecting in the order of Gira-O>Kanga>other things will prove most useful to accomplish that. There's no reason to speed Kanga through a suspect and give it the boot without testing Gira first.

 

[Joim]

I think Sleep Clause merits a test. While on gen 5 this would be frowned upon, let's review what gen 6 has brought us:
-Grass-types are immune to Spore and Sleep Powder. We would see a raise on usage on some underused Grass-types.
-Talonbird hardcounters Amoonguss and Breloom. Sash would be needed to use Spore, which can be done now, only they're dead next turn or they can be double targetted.
-We have Misty Terrain, which could see some use.
-Safeguard Cresselia.
-While we could see more Mega Charizard Y and Venusaur, but Mega-Tyranitar, Wide Guard and Fake Out, Trick Room, Magic Bounce, etc. all keep you safe from Sleep Powder spam (which does not have perfect accuracy, mind you).
-Sleep is prevented by the other status, which are common and often desirable over sleep (burning a mega-k, just in case, it could wake up first turn and OHKO you).
-Sleep counter is not reset anymore upon switching out, so it's not as broken as it was on gen 5.

While the menace of overcentralising Venusaur is there, we should see it with our own eyes first. There's just a lot of tools to deal with sleep and I don't think it's really broken - why keep something that's not broken banned? It would give many mons a role on our OU, right now it's basically ttar, landy, mega k, mega zard, tr, oh wow it's another mega what the fuck, rotom-w, and heatran.

By the way, I wouldn't want to test Giratina-O, it's clearly broken, it has both offensive and defensive presence, two excellent STABs, is very hardly OHKOd, can support team or be supported, is a very fast w-o-w user... no pls

 

[BLINGAS]

i nominate that kanghaskhanite thing. that shit is stupid

 

[nyttyn]

Giratina-O suspect test is kind of...err, why? We all know Cresselia is a top tier threat - and Giratina-O is, for the most part, Cresselia on steroids. Lets break it down:

Defenses: 150/100/100 Bulk, Dragon/Ghost typing, Levitate

Giratina-O has significantly more bulk then a vast majority of pokemon in the game, as well as one of the best defensive typing/ability combos in existence, with 6 resistances, 2 immunities, and 5 weaknesses. To put this mind boggling bulk in perspective -

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 162-192 (32.1 - 38%) -- 95.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 138-163 (31 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, it is barely less bulky then Cresselia, with a significantly better defensive typing. And we already know how much of a pain it is to kill Cress. Yes ,this bulk is undermined by a lack of Reliable Recovery, the fact that most of those weaknesses are fairly common, and no Sitrus/Leftovers. Cresselia also has to deal with a lack of reliable recovery without sacrificing the item slot and it gets by just fine. Lack of a recovering item isn't as big of a deal anymore anyways thanks to Knock Off being absolutely everywhere.

Offenses: 120/120/90, Dragon/Ghost typing, Free Spooky/Dragon Plate

Giratina-O isn't by any means fast, but 90 speed is just enough to be easily boosted to outspeed opponents with any form of speed control barring Trick Room. This speed is backed up by, as previously mentioned, mind boggling 150/100/100 defenses, and 120/120 mixed offenses. It can choose to be a Physical or Special attacker as it wishes, with a fantastic movepool to back it up, possessing not only every good Ghost and Dragon offensive move (Shadow Sneak, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Shadow Force, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Dragon Claw, Outrage), but enormous coverage options as well (Aura Sphere, Earth Power, Earthquake, Aqua Tail, Iron Head/Tail, Thunder(bolt), Psychic, Energy Ball, Stone Edge, Dark Pulse). Not that it needs them, since Dragon/Ghost is almost completely unresisted (Only Wigglytuff can wall it).

Support

Giratina-O's support abilities are immense. Compared to most supporting pokemon, yes, it loses out on Helping Hand which kind of sucks. But lets see what it DOES have: Icy Wind, Tailwind, Sunny Day/Rain Dance, Will-o-Wisp, Dragon Tail/Roar, Magic Coat, Gravity). While it isn't the largest number of support options in the world, Giratina-O has access to two of the best Speed control options in the game, as well as access to phazing, a very fast (comparitively) Will-o-Wisp, weather support, and a anti-taunt/status move. This is the kind of support access that most support mons would drool over, and Giratina can, if it so chooses, back that up with an enormously powerful (even uninvested) Draco Meteor if it so pleases.


so yeah Giratina-O can literally be anything it wants and excel at any role (support, physical offense, special offense, hybrid). Unpredictable, a top tier threat no matter what it does, and raw base stats all combine to make one heck of a broken threat that would just be a waste of time to suspect test.

 

[Lolk]

I don't think suspecting sleep clause is best for this meta. While theorymoning in both cases, I see Venusaur with no sleep clause almost equivalent to freeing Giratina-O in the sense of the power and influence it holds.

People frequently use the argument that Fake Out is a great way to check every Pokemon but you can use the same counter-argument on Fake Out teammates for Venusaur in the sun, allowing it to plow through all of its checks. Of course you could counter it with Fake Out and a Safeguard partner. but how many times could that match up easily occur, especially with a macho charizard on the other side threatening with its mighty powaaaa.

Literally the only things stopping Venusaur are Talonflame and Prankster+Safeguard. Venusaur can Sleep Powder other Safeguard Pokemon before they can use the move. In addition, the almost mandatory notion to set up Safeguard before the Venusaur switches in will take the pressure off the Venusaur's team while they are busy taking extra precautions. Another thing to point out is that a STAB Sludge Bomb wrecks most Grass-types that switch into the sleep powder, and the ones that aren't weak to sludge bomb cannot touch Venusaur bar Ferrothorn. And if Venusaur starts running HP Fire than it gets even worse.

A method to stop Chlorophyll is opposing weather. However, Venusaur has a great matchup against every other setter (Abomasnow could get rough) available with it's STABs alone.

Even with the Sleep nerf, especially in the Doubles format, two-three turns is a big chunk of the match, and if most of the team is sleeping, than the user has a really easy time winning imo.

Sure Venusaur can be banned quickly after Sleep Clause is limited but Chlorophyll+Sleep Powder is a very common combination and many other Pokemon can abuse this situation such as Victreebel and Vileplume.

edit: (below) coulda posted a little earlier imo

 

[Pocket]

Guys, Sleep WILL be tested, so don't bother nominating it. We can also save the discussion of sleep during its suspect test, so please refrain from discussing about Sleep Clause.

youngjake93, we will be voting on Kangaskhan (if it gains council approval) before we test Giratina-O (if it gains council approval). If we end up voting for both mons and Kangaskhan happens to go to Ubers and Giratina-O drops down to OU, we can always revisit Kangaskhan in a Gira-O metagame.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I would be against Giratina-O being allowed in Doubles.

As nyttyn said, Giratina-O can do pretty much anything it wants and do extremely well at whatever it decides to do. It's almost as bulky as Cresselia but has a lot more power behind its attacks. Although many people are saying that it has no item, the Grisneous Orb actually does help Giratina have stronger STABs so then it hits harder than you would expect. It may not have the ability to hold an item that boosts it further, but a Shadow Ball does hit around as hard as Tyranitar's Crunch, which isn't anything to scoff at. That thing can hit pretty hard with STABs that are not resisted by very many Pokemon and it has a lot of coverage to back it up.

The supporting capabilities it has for something with a decent offensive caliber, however, would push it over the edge. For something that hits much harder than Cresselia, its kinda crazy that it has pretty much the same support movepool as Cresselia other than Trick Room. However, its ace in the hole is that it gets Will-O-Wisp, which is an extremely good move in Doubles. Will-O-Wisp makes Pokemon that aren't even that bulky (think Rotom-W) a pain in the ass to take down, but Giratina with Will-O-Wsp makes it nigh impossible to take down with physical moves (it isn't even that slow - its faster than Rotom-W so can pull off the attack before getting hit itself). It can further harass its foes with other support moves like Icy Wind or Thunder Wave, with a typing that gives it a good amount of resistances and immunities. A few of its weaknesses aren't even that common, with Dragon not being the most common thing around (Giratina can smack these guys around with a STAB or Will-O-Wisp since it can definitely take a hit from a lot of them), Ice not being as common of a STAB, while coverage moves fail to do much to Giratina, and Ghost-types take a huge amount from Shadow Sneak.

I just overall think something nearly as bulky as Cresselia with Will-O-Wisp, a wide movepool, and stellar offenses would NOT be manageable in doubles. I'd just ban Mega Kanga (which I agree is broken) rather than have to deal with two ridiculous Pokemon.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

My opinions ~
Suspect Kangaskhanite - I really do believe that Mega Kangaskhan is unhealthy for the metagame. I believe that Kangaskhan pretty much shuts down the viability of Trick Room. Thanks to it's access to Fake Out and then an insanely strong Return or Double Edge, only Pokemon with bulk comparable to that of Cresselia can manage to set Trick Room up in it's face. Even with Pokemon like Scrafty assisting the TR Pokemon, it is hard to get it up because Kangaskhan has a faster Fake Out and with a partner can probably still hit hard enough to KO the setter at -1.
Usually a sure fire way to avoid the effects of Fake Out is to use a Ghost-type Pokemon to set Trick Room. However, thanks to Khan's regular ability, Scrappy, it can Fake Out the setter despite the usual immunity. This makes it really easy to overwhelm Trick Room based teams right from the beginning of the match.
Even if TR is set up, Khan's access to Sucker Punch lets it cause real trouble for any TR team. Especially considering most Trick Room setters are weak to Dark-type attacks. Fake Out will also help her stall it out upon switching in.
Also it's really bulky.
tl;dr insane attack, great moves, buys free turns, 2gud vs TR.

Just putting it out that I'm unsure about Gira O and am lenient towards not letting it free, will go into more detail later.

 

[nyttyn]

I would like to take a moment to discuss my feelings on the primary suspect that has thusfar been brought up in detail.

Kangaskhanite

Offenses

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 226-267 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 229-270 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Take a moment to look at these damage Calcs. Choice Band Kyurem-B's Dragon Claw is hands down one of the most powerful attacks in the entire game. Mega Kangaskhan's Return is outdamaging that. It can also switch attacks, use Protect, and has access to both Priority and more useful Coverage options (Crunch, Sucker Punch, Hammer Arm/Power-up Punch/Brick Break). In fact, between Dark, Fighting, and Normal coverage, Mega Kangaskhan can nail almost the entire metagame with superpowerful attacks that are on the level of Choice Band Kyurem-B. With 100 base speed. And if it wants it can just maximize bulk and go with Seismic Toss which does a flat 200 damage to anything that's not a ghost type.

Defenses

105/100/100 defenses are enormous for a physical attacker, and allow Mega Kangaskhan to comfortably soak up quite a few powerful attacks, especially since it does not need to rely on Life Orb to do massive damage. To wit -

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 109-129 (31 - 36.7%) -- 64.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 262-310 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 145-172 (41.3 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Here's just a few of the powerful attacks that Mega Kangaskhan can soak up.

Finally, it also has access to Fake Out, one of the most powerful support options in the game, as if the rest of this wasn't enough. And its Fake Out does significant levels of damage. To wit -

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 90-108 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Misc

Mega Kangaskhan also has a few other cool things going for it which just serve to make it even more powerful. It can use Power-Up Punch as both a decently powerful move as well as a taunt-proof Swords Dance, at the risk of Ghost types and Protect users blocking it. It's immune to Knock Off's item removal, which is otherwise a good option to help take the wind out of the sails of offensive pokemon. It's also immune to Trick, which is rare but still nice. While you won't see people using Disable often, with Kangaskhan's speed, it's a plausible option to mess with its counters/checks (thought you could WoW it? Think again.). Finally, it also gains access to Wish, which allows it a semi-reliable degree of recovery to either it or its team mates, which is backed by a fairly meaty base 105 HP.

 

[Ultimathunder]

Well I don't have suspect reqs yet because laddering gets boring after a while, but I am working on it. I want to respond to some things brought up.

I agree that some people are using the singles definition of brokeness. Using that definition, barely anything is broken. Instead, thinking how that pokemon performs in the most number of situations is the right way of determining if sometging is broken or not.

Mega kanghakhan- as much as I hate to say this, because my best team has mega kangha, and because kangaskhan is one of the few pokemon that was worthy of a
evo, it could be broken. Here are a list of flaws and positives about khan

Pros

• Crippled by intimidate
• Crippled by burn
• Lack of spread move
• not best STAB type

Cons

• Low speed is offset by sucker punch
• intimidate is offset by power-up-punch
• Powerful fake out
• parental bond breaks subs and sashes
• pretty bulky

Mega kanghaskhan's flaws are for the most part offset by it's stats, movepool, and ability, so I feel like it could possibly be broken.

Edit: at GiratinaO. At first glance I was "lol Giratina-O unban lol" after some thinking and reading the arguments, It looks like it might not be as bad. I feel that some arguments are not true, however. Draco meteor might force you out, but it goes a ton of damage from a griseous orb STAB boosted attack off 120 SpA. Giratina hihts significant;y harder than cress, and has a different set of resistances. It still looks broken on paper to me, but the arguments have convinced me it is worth a test.

 

[youngjake93]

Guys you don't have to be pro-"free giraO." At this point I wouldn't advise unbanning it either because I have limited experience playing against it and no experience playing with it. The point is to suspect it to actually figure out one way or the other.

Also, Gira-O's defensive typing isn't really better than Cresselia's. Gira-O has to tank Draco Meteors, Huge Power STAB Play Nices, Cube Dragon Claw/Outrage, and be generally annoyed by SE Blizzards, Ice Beams, HP Ices and Icy Winds which are all soooo common and extremely powerful. This is also on top of the dark and ghost weakness shared with Cresselia. Plus 7% more bulk(still unsure on exact number) AND Sitrus Berry makes a huge difference. The difference between 252 HP Cress and 0 HP is only 16% and we know how large of a difference that is.

Also, in terms of power, 80 and 85 BP STABs leave much to be desired while a slow Draco Meteor leaves you proned to being substituted on and forced out while -2.

Also, can we really quit saying how good Roar and Magic Coat are? This is doubles. GiraO does not have nearly as wide of a support movepool as Cresselia or Togekiss, but WoW definitely counts for a lot.

Also, although Dragon+Ghost is really cool offensively, there are ways around it. Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, Darkrai, Hydreigon, Mega Mawile in TR, Follow Me or Dazzling Gleam Togekiss, and Mega Gardevoir is a non-exhaustive list of checks that popped into my head. And that's just things that directly check it. Stuff like Sash Deoxys-A and CB Talonflame can put a bit of a hurting on GiraO as well. Plus if you think about it, you could easily just play around its STABs by abusing the immunities to them.

But mostly importantly I will reiterate that I am not saying unban giratina o. I am saying that in order to truly judge this Pokemon that seems borderline and might make the meta healthier, we should TEST IT OUT.

 

[Magcargo]

No suspects

In the current metagame, nothing is really overwhelming or overpowering enough to receive a suspect test. The only pokemon that are even close to receiving a suspect test are Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Charizard Y. Both are able to provide important Utility and hit extremely hard, but have flaws that do not really make them suspect worthy. Mega Kangaskhan is vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp, and to the lesser extent intimidate Pokemon, while Mega Charizard Y is vulnerable to common attacking types and doesn't do too well vs Rain and Sand (and by banning it, we essentially kill a playstyle, which is rarely a good thing).

I also believe that we should not suspect either Sleep Clause or Giratina-O. Unbanning the Sleep Clause seems very unhealthy to the metagame on paper. We've got a large amount of excellent Sleep inducers such as Venusaur, Breloom, and Amoongus and there are still plenty of other viable Sleep inducers, such as Exeggutor, Victreebel, and Tangrowth. By unbanning the sleep clause, we are essentially forcing nearly every team to have a Safe Guard / Sleep Talk user in order to stand up to these Sleep inducers. In theory, Grass-types should be able to counter majority of these Sleep inducers thanks to their immunity to sleep. However, many Grass-types are weak to coverage moves that are commonly found on these Pokemon. The only way unbanning Sleep Clause can be beneficial is if we individually ban the most dangerous offenders and I honestly do not think that we should go to that length just to unban the Sleep Clause.

As for Giratina-O, it would be a horrendous idea to unban it. It has an extensive movepool, bulk comparable to cresselia, an excellent typing, and very high Offensive stats. Thanks to its typing, its able to counter a large portion of the metagame, and unlike cresselia, it has the offensive movepool and presence to defeat a majority of the metagame 1 on 1. Even Tyranitar can't consider itself a reliable counter to Giratina-O thanks to Aura Sphere / Will-O-wisp. I doubt that unbanning this Pokemon will do much good for the metagame.

Edit: I did not read the message on the OP regarding sleep. My apologies.

 

[Lasagne]

what nyttyn said about gira-o. I don't see the need to repeat what someone else has already said, so yeah, his post basically says it all. I believe it is possible that gira-o might not be broken, but its definitely not one of the mons I'd choose to suspect first. Lugia would, imo, be a better choice. While it is basically a pumped up cresselia statwise, its support movepool is much more limited, so I don't think it would actually be broken. Not going to go into detail until I get my leaderboard points/reqs, but imo lugia would not be broken. I also feel the same way about evasion and moody, and will argue for these as well if necessary.