Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Suspect Nomination and Discussion Thread

[Stratos]

OK, everyone, I cleaned up the thread. After we finally all reached the same wavelength, this is what is going to happen:

At the conclusion of this thread (which was supposed to be two days ago what the hell Pocket), all the people who reached reqs (5 leaderboard points, the battling reqs, and posts in the metagame discussion or suspect nomination threads) will vote from among any suspects that have been nominated and council-approved. At the moment, it looks like that's going to be Kangaskhanite, though it could be more or less than one suspect in future rounds. A 2/3 majority vote against the status quo is needed to effect any change. Once this first test is done, assuming that nothing becomes eminently broken to the council, we will proceed to a Sleep Clause test. I don't know how we're going to handle suspect tests that involve unbanning, since that would usually entail setting up a suspect ladder, and I don't know how that fits into the system Pocket has set up.

This information will be edited into the OP.

Pocket EDIT: Unbanned Ubers would be dropped directly into the Doubles ladder. Having 2 ladder sucks, because it requires double the amount of ladding, and the suspect ladder usually has very low activity. If said Uber is obviously broken, the council will quick ban it.

 

[Laurel]

I completely neglected to post since getting reqs, so I'll make one now on my thoughts.

The current debates seem to be on Mega Kanga, Mega Zard Y, Gira-O, and Lugia...

Mega Kanga
Good yes, but certainly not over centralizing or broken. I really think Mega Kanga is naturally checked in teams with things like Rocky Helmet Rough Skin Garchomp just being so good to hurt back physical attackers. Scrafty and Hitmontop check it well with intimidate (it does not measure up with the PuP boosts but Mega Kanga doesn't like Close Combat/Drain Punch). Pokemon like Ferrothorn are really common, Mega Lucario, and Terrakion outspeed and kill with their respective fighting moves and resist Sucker Punch as well. Mega Kanga usually doesn't have the move space to fit protect so its really at risk of just being double targeted. It obviously can't run a Lum Berry so you can just fake out it with something then burn it with Rotom-W. Not trying to discredit it at all it's a really good pokemon and a huge threat, but there are enough checks that I don't think it needs to be suspected.

Mega Charizard-Y
I'm going to say that I think Zard Y is an absolute beast but like Kanga I don't think it deserves a suspect. Heatran is arguably the best pokemon in the meta, and it forces Zard-Y to switch or attack into protect exposing itself, because it's obviously not going to heat wave. There is so much other weather including manual rain users like prankster Thundurus-I, that quite literally "rain" on its parade, and Tyranitar is obviously very common as well, and usually runs Rock Slide, and protect to dodge the focus blast. Rotom-W is a popular pokemon on every team both rain and sand, and can hit Zard with thunderbolt on either team, and with weather up Zard Y cannot Solar Beam. Again I think it's a threat but it's not bannable. Too many common pokemon check it for it to be a problem. Also, 100 base speed is good, but it's still slower than a lot of threats like Shaymin-S... which I just throw Hp Rock on over Protect to kill Zard Y for lol.

Giratina-O
I'm not very great at speculating but I think this thing is wayyyyy too good for doubles. It gets priority, ghost typing, dragon typing, WoW, Earthquake, and Tailwind??? Like seriously that sounds way too good, and I see no reason to not use that on every team. Its not even susceptible to being trapped by mega gengar because of an extremely powerful shadow sneak. I'm not against trying it out, because I think a banless doubles meta is cool, but I think it provides way too much utility and offensive and defensive typing ... easily walls Zard-Y and checks Mega Kanga hard... to make the meta better than it already is.

Lugia
Same thoughts was Giratina-O honestly. Its weak to rock slide, but nothing is going to OHKO this thing especially through multiscale... It is like a super cresselia come on guys... It gets Icy Wind, Thunder Wave, insane defenses... its an ultimate tank that deals with pretty much every threat. This is really really bad please don't even suspect this thing... Like why Lugia and not another crazy legendary like Groudon... I don't get it anyways, keep it banned.

 

[Pocket]

Alright, we will now end the suspect nomination / discussion phase and move to voting! Here are the users who are eligible to vote:

1. Mizuhime
2. Audiosurfer
3. AuraRayquaza
4. BlankZero
5. dcae
6. Ezio
7. finally
8. Haruno
9. Icecream
10. Laga
11. Lasagne
12. Lolkomori
13. Nollan
14. BLOOD TOTEM
15. srk1214
16. youngjake93
17. Pwnemon
18. Joim
19. Laurel
20. Level 51
21. Magcargo 2
22. nyttyn
23. Robert Alfons
24. Ash Borer
25. Swamp-Rocket
26. Ultimathunder

Congrats, and thanks for participating! Keep your eyes peeled for the voting thread! We will be voting on Kangaskhanite (Ban / Do NOT Ban / Abstain)

 

[Nollan]

Wait just to clear this up, we are voting for whether to test it or not, right?

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Wait just to clear this up, we are voting for whether to test it or not, right?

If so, yes

There will be a voting thread in policy review eventually. It is definitely getting voted on.

Not sure on what I'm going to vote...

 

[Ash Borer]

cool, I think right now I'm leaning towards the ban. Mega khan is such an outrageous pokemon.. it's simply stronger, bulkier, and has a deeper movepool compared to the average pokemon by such a wide margin that there's really no reason not to use it as an attacker in your team if you need one. It's just so easy to use and it always does work. The usage in SPL and on the ladder is damn high for this thing, all the players agree that it is clearly dominant.

This being said, it offers little defensive synergy and can be checked with strong fighting types, intimidate, will-o-wisp and in general it isnt fast enough to break the meta apart. It is able to brought down, and for that I am on the fence.

 

[Haruno]

After re-reading the thread, my thoughts on kanga were a bit iffy on either side but I think ice cream's post (post 66) summed up why kangaskhan isn't as broken as how some try to make us believe.

 

[Stratos]

cool, I think right now I'm leaning towards the ban. Mega khan is such an outrageous pokemon.. it's simply stronger, bulkier, and has a deeper movepool compared to the average pokemon by such a wide margin that there's really no reason not to use it as an attacker in your team if you need one. It's just so easy to use and it always does work. The usage in SPL and on the ladder is damn high for this thing, all the players agree that it is clearly dominant.

This being said, it offers little defensive synergy and can be checked with strong fighting types, intimidate, will-o-wisp and in general it isnt fast enough to break the meta apart. It is able to brought down, and for that I am on the fence.

>deep movepoool

it has literally one set and any deviation from that set reduces its overall effectiveness; that set is even predictable within itself due to lack of protect and only one actual reliable attacking option (return) with the rest being moves you will only see in very specific situations (kanga's first turn out, kanga threatened to revenge, kanga at -1 or +0 with a free turn).

furthermore, we all have heard the argument that usage is irrelevant, and kanga's isn't even that high. Four Kanga were used week one, and only one of those teams won. Five were used week two, and three did win, but... you'd think something broken would have a better than 50% usage-to-win ratio and kanga does not. Compare to, say, Togekiss, which has been used 10 times (one more than kanga) in the first two weeks and won six but is not even S rank in our viability thread.

The problem with Kanga is that he contributes literally nothing to the defensive structure of a team. You cannot count on him to take any type of hit or switch in on anything. His ability to snipe and pressure teams is incredibly useful, but then you're stuck building a five-poke defense. for bulkier players (like myself) that's really nearly impossible.

i think it's pretty clear which way i'll vote once blind voting goes up




EDIT @ NOLLAN: we are voting whether to BAN it, not whether to TEST it. And you said you weren't confused...






EDIT @ Pocket: o right i forgot the reason i was actually posting here when i made that post on kanga. What about the following users in the voting???

dcae
blingas
-tsunami-
blood totem
laurel
srk1214

i even might have missed some, but these are all users who made reqs by my count

 

[Audiosurfer]

Pwnemon I don't think they all have the minimum leaderboard requirements. To those who don't have 5 points and made the ladder reqs, then I strongly recommend you go over to the leaderboard right now and check out some of the achievements or something, since those are all some good ways to get points quickly. Also, since it might make a difference in helping someone get suspect reqs I'll see if I can update the replay thread so points can be awarded to users that shared good replays (hint hint might wanna post some good replays or somethin too).

 

[Stratos]

Dcae blingas and srk each have five (first taste, mover and shaker, and icebreaker) where tsunami has six so idk how he got missed, totem doesn't have five this month but he had enough if u include last month, which leaves laurel who only has four (mover and shaker and first taste) but his post itc is probably worthy of a discussion point, i just haven't given out any of those in a while.

 

[youngjake93]

>deep movepoool

it has literally one set and any deviation from that set reduces its overall effectiveness; that set is even predictable within itself due to lack of protect and only one actual reliable attacking option (return) with the rest being moves you will only see in very specific situations (kanga's first turn out, kanga threatened to revenge, kanga at -1 or +0 with a free turn).

furthermore, we all have heard the argument that usage is irrelevant, and kanga's isn't even that high. Four Kanga were used week one, and only one of those teams won. Five were used week two, and three did win, but... you'd think something broken would have a better than 50% usage-to-win ratio and kanga does not. Compare to, say, Togekiss, which has been used 10 times (one more than kanga) in the first two weeks and won six but is not even S rank in our viability thread.



i think it's pretty clear which way i'll vote once blind voting goes up




EDIT @ NOLLAN: we are voting whether to BAN it, not whether to TEST it. And you said you weren't confused...






EDIT @ Pocket: o right i forgot the reason i was actually posting here when i made that post on kanga. What about the following users in the voting???

dcae
blingas
-tsunami-
blood totem
laurel
srk1214

i even might have missed some, but these are all users who made reqs by my count

These raw stats(usage and w:l compared to Togekiss) are a good direct way to show how Mega Kanga is not broken in high level play.
I would be curious of a test, since it is incredibly easy to throw it on a team, is an easy button for ladder play(noobs and vets alike can take advantage on the ladder) and is the most overwhelming physical attacker in the tier by a fairly large margin. I also feel that its power(can outspeed and 2hko Intimidate users), bulk(more than Jirachi), and its influence on the metagame has been undersold a lot toward the end of this discussion.
However, since we aren't voting on a test, based on only the information we have now, it is pretty obvious that Mega Kanga is not TOO hard to deal with.

 

[nyttyn]

dcae
blingas
-Tsunami-

They barely posted a thing, and nothing in the suspect test (excpet blingas's oneliner post). Remember, contribution to the suspect discussion was also mentioned as part of the suspect voting requirements.

blood totem
srk1214

Didn't post munch, so I could understand why pocket didn't give reqs (though personally I think that's a bit stingy)

laurel

Had a strong post, but it was a extremely last minute and his only one, so i guess that's the reason there.

 

[Pocket]

BLOOD TOTEM and srk1214 are already on the list, you silly goose ~_~ (srs this is like the 3rd time you warned me about something that I have already said... re-read carefully three times before you do this in the future)

Regretfully, blingas, tsunami, and dcae did not participate in the suspect discussion. Laurel is a borderline case; I would leave that up to a council vote.

Discussion about voter eligibility is derailing this thread and should be discussed privately among the council. Please end this discussion ;o

Go back to talking about Mega Kanga.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

I must say that after all the discussion in the thread i am starting to see why kanga is not broken as such, just so powerful it hurts so much of the meta. I am still pretty sure a ban would be good for the meta, as you wont need to carry WoW and intimidate on at least 3 pokes anymore. It might also balance it out more, as now lando t will not be simply put on some teams solely for kanga. But i am still on the fence atm

 

[Joim]

You will still carry wow and intimidate because:
landorus-t
mega aggron
hitmontop
scrafty
tyranitar
garchomp
physical mega luke

etc.

Obviously I'd like those who haven't participated to not to vote.

 

[youngjake93]

I must say that after all the discussion in the thread i am starting to see why kanga is not broken as such, just so powerful it hurts so much of the meta. I am still pretty sure a ban would be good for the meta, as you wont need to carry WoW and intimidate on at least 3 pokes anymore. It might also balance it out more, as now lando t will not be simply put on some teams solely for kanga. But i am still on the fence atm

Just a note, Kanga has many ways to obliterate Landog depending on how the user is playing Kanga.

Double Edge Spam on switch
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Helping Hand Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 343-405 (107.1 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
PuP set up opportunity on switch
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 229-270 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
1v1
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 76-91 (23.7 - 28.4%) -- 96% chance to 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bulky Kanga
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 195-229 (47.1 - 55.3%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO
Fast Kanga
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 195-229 (55.3 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Really as you can see, the premier Intimidate user is a horrible switch in to Kanga. In fact, Kanga can switch in on Landog, then OHKO it!
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 292-343 (91.2 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Note you can Fake Out first for an easy guarantee or just run Double Edge.
In fact, Kanga can do over 80% to Landog before it even moves with Fake Out+Sucker Punch combo at +0.

I think this post shows what I mean about underestimating Kanga's bulk, power and meta influence. However this threatening presence is diluted against a good team and/or player due to being able to use two Pokemon at a time. This is also sort of the reason why I believe Gira-O would be more than manageable, but still a treat. Skill and 2v2 match ups dilute individual threats to manageable levels.

It really comes down to healthy or not for the meta I guess and you can't really say that for certain without a suspect test imo for any of the things mentioned in this thread so far.

 

[Ultimathunder]

I don't feel that Kanga is broken. Though people are saying that "you need to run intimidate and WoW to stop it," the reason this doesn't affect the fact that it isn't broken is that you have to run those to check physical attackers anyway. The main reason I feel that Kanga is not broken is because I have to run nothing that makes my team worse (in every other situation) to check Kanga. I would definitely run a lot of the aforementioned Kanga checks even f it wasn't around, including Rotom-W, Togekiss, and Scarf Landorus-Therian.

I'll put up this list of flaws again:

• It gets no spread moves. While this is not the biggest deal, it lets follow me users take advantage of it while their partner finishes Kanga off.
• It gets no useful resistances. Outside of ghost immunity, Kanga has no resistances to switch in on. Though people could argue that it has decent bulk, A lot of the powerful attacks that are in the meta will do a lot of damage to it
• Kanga is predictable- As as others have stated, it always runs the same four moves, with little variation (Crunch/ Sucker Punch) etc.
• Kanga is not a team player- outside of Fake Out, Kanga offers nothing but attacking power. Other powerful attacks sch as Terrakion and Gengar offer support in moves like quick guard and taunt, While other fake out users such as Hitmontop have Intimidate (don't take this as me saying that those Pokemon are better than Kanga, I am just saying that this is one of Kanga's flaws.

So tl;dr - I don't think Kangakhanite is broken.

 

[Haruno]

snip

you forgot one of the most important calcs
+1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 330-391 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

And in addition to this
+1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 319-378 (104.9 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scrafty: 280-333 (83.8 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

arguably hitmontop/scrafty can somewhat stop kanga thanks to fake out + teammate but I wouldn't call that reliable since it's screwed if kanga has protect > fake out or if kangas teammates has quick guard. Not to mention that kanga sits at a very convenient speed tier. However these calcs show that even the premier intimidators of the tier are a very soft check to kanga since after a PuP, kanga still proceeds to wreck shit. This isn't even considering how 252/252+def landog/top/scrafty are barely run.

Again, I'm still on the fence on how I'll vote, but these calcs simply show how intimidators are a pretty iffy answer to kanga since it really doesn't give a shit after a PuP since at +1 it still does massive amounts to the tier. I still think icecream's post nailed why kanga shouldn't be banned but eh. I'll wait for further discussion and when I have more time to give a better comment.

 

[Joim]

NP Darkrai and NP Megaluke basically OHKO / 2HKO the whole tier and you don't see people yelling "ban!" even though they are quite faster.

 

[youngjake93]

NP Darkrai and NP Megaluke basically OHKO / 2HKO the whole tier and you don't see people yelling "ban!" even though they are quite faster.

They are frail in comparison, have exploitable weaknesses which outweighs resistances for things meant to stay on the field a lot, are still MUCH MUCH MUCH weaker than +2 kanga double edge(and by extension are much weaker when unboosted), rely on super effective coverage over neutral(can be punished by smart switching as a result), usually have no priority, and finally Nasty Plot is inferior to double PuP as a boosting move in many ways.
Fake Out support is a lot more amazing than given credit for as well, especially considering the small pool of viable users.

Edit: also, OHKOing your most widely suggested switch ins without any free turns to set up is a huge difference from "2hkoing most of the tier" after a boost

Edit2: Pocket raised a strong point in that most players run mega kanga as a complementary team option rather than a centerpiece. This makes all the difference in how deadly Kanga appears on the surface. There is a difference between Mega Kanga teams and teams that threw Mega Kanga on just because it is good. Heck, I wouldn't even waste a slot on Fake Out if my goal was to dominate solely with Kanga since the 1 less moveslot takes away from its ability to devastate the opponent. Most of the time I'm just throwing her on the team just because Fake Out, Sucker Punch and Double Edge from over 200 effective base attack with 1 weakness is so good.
I am still in the conservative boat though as well.

 

[Haruno]

NP Darkrai and NP Megaluke basically OHKO / 2HKO the whole tier and you don't see people yelling "ban!" even though they are quite faster.

luca has hell setting up thanks to its 70/88/70 defenses. Not to mention it has a far harder time setting up than kanga since it can't afford to take a hit. It has a nifty base 112 speed admittedly but its priority is far weaker than kangas in addition to the fact that kanga has fake out.

Darkrai combines the combination of frailty + no spread moves + no priority. Missing out on all three of those traits is what makes darkrai not good in doubles. Darkrai's saving grace is how it has the best move in game but alas sleep clause exists.

 

[Pocket]

NP Darkrai and NP Mega Luke have even a harder time setting up NP and sweeping afterwards, because they are a lot more fragile. They also hit much softer than Kangaskhan before (and after the boost). Mega Kanga does not even need PuP boosts to stop tearing holes at the opposing team (I guess the same can be said for Mega Lucario, but to a lesser extent imo)

I am beginning to shift my position about Kangaskhan after facing them in a hands of good players. The combination of extreme power and bulk can be ridiculous at times. The lack of resistances may hinder its bulk, but it has no exploitable weakness other than Fighting-type. You can bring down the likes of Rotom-W by chipping away at its health, but that's almost impossible with Kangaskhan, since it is breaking the team's backbone each turn. The one major flaw in Kangaskhan is its decent Speed, but she has freaken Sucker Punch, which just got better with Steel-type losing its Dark resistance.

Granted there are handful of offensive and defensive measures to handle Kangaskhan. However, if a skilled player decides to use Kangaskhan as a centerpiece rather than a support piece of their team, it takes little support to neutralize most of these anti-Kanga threats. Kangaskhan can manage to stick around for a long time, and that means destruction.

Being a conservative guy, I am not fully sold in banning Kangaskhanite. However, some of you are severely underhyping its deadliness. Even if she stays in Doubles after this initial phase, I may want to revisit her in the future.

 

[Joim]

My whole point was that OHKOing or 2HKOing after a boost is not a good point to get something banned.

 

[youngjake93]

My whole point was that OHKOing or 2HKOing after a boost is not a good point to get something banned.

From my edit
Edit: also, OHKOing your most widely suggested switch ins without any free turns to set up is a huge difference from "2hkoing most of the tier" after a boost

Joim I provided calcs showing how Mega Kanga can either OHKO at -1 or PuP on the switch in and OHKO while outspeeding(as in you don't already assume the boost came from sometime before unlike Luke and Darkrai)

Also saying you might as well assume that the opponent is guaranteed to use Hitmontop, Scrafty or Landog and it will switch in reliably without being punished by your partner or Kanga throughout the entirety of the battle is a stretch.

 

[Joim]

+1 is not a free turn, Mega-K will more often than not find itself at -1 too. If we want to compare set ups, Mega-K should be compared at +1 and NP users at +2. Both need to use a turn to set up (Rage Powder/Follow Me or forced switch) to then attempt to destroy some other mons. With the coverage the aforementioned mons have, they can use NP and Protect and still OHKO and 2HKO most of the tier, so they are not as dangerous as Mega-K but pretty close (you can't debuff Special Attackers unless you run the rare Snarl and you need a turn for this).