Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Suspect Nomination and Discussion Thread

[Joim]

"252+ Atk Helping Hand Double-Edge"
Come on. If we count Helping Hand and an attack no one uses because it makes Mega-K last two turns and using a positive attack nature instead of Jolly...

Darkrai, this is without Life Orb (say Sitrus Berry). Nothing can switch and it doesn't even need to set up. If you set up with it and helping hand, gg!
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 265-313 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Rotom-W: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 418-494 (108.2 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 504-596 (124.7 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 392-462 (144.6 - 170.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 442-520 (106.7 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Megaluke:
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 576-680 (149.2 - 176.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 420-496 (108.8 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 362-428 (94.7 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 208-246 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 696-824 (172.2 - 203.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 400-472 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 280-330 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 540-636 (199.2 - 234.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Who does even need Nasty Plot having Helping Hand around? :P (now run calcs without HH and see that mega luke is pro)

 

[Bughouse]

I'm kind of where Pocket is. I've seen Mega Kanga be used by competent players to seriously devastating effect. And it may be an observer bias, since I am kinda looking for it, but it seems to me at least that this is more true of Mega Kanga than most any other mon in the tier, except maybe Sub Heatran.

At the same time, I'm not quite sold on actually banning her without a proper test, so I'm not sure how I'll vote. There are a few points I wish I could prove about Kanga + Deo-A or Kanga + Rage Powder/Follow Me, but I just haven't found a suitable replay to do so yet. And really, everyone should just cut it out with the random damage calcs. This is everything that's bad about suspect testing all over again. It had seemed to me that Doubles was above this, but I guess not.

 

[youngjake93]

"252+ Atk Helping Hand Double-Edge"
Come on. If we count Helping Hand and an attack no one uses because it makes Mega-K last two turns and using a positive attack nature instead of Jolly...

Darkrai, this is without Life Orb (say Sitrus Berry). Nothing can switch and it doesn't even need to set up. If you set up with it and helping hand, gg!
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 265-313 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Rotom-W: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 418-494 (108.2 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 504-596 (124.7 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 392-462 (144.6 - 170.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Darkrai Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 442-520 (106.7 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Megaluke:
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 576-680 (149.2 - 176.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 420-496 (108.8 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 362-428 (94.7 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 208-246 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 696-824 (172.2 - 203.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 400-472 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 280-330 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Helping Hand Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 540-636 (199.2 - 234.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Who does even need Nasty Plot having Helping Hand around? :P (now run calcs without HH and see that mega luke is pro)

Helping Hand Double Edge is actually pretty common though because it gives an 18% power boost over Return which is already notably stronger than CB Cube's D Claw. And the PuP+Sucker Punch combo KOs without helping hand before anything can move as well so you're not using free turns. But anyway you are ignoring the fundamental difference in that Kanga can straight up use PuP as a coverage move, there is little opportunity cost. Nasty Plot is not a coverage move
Also I have had Double Edge swept teams before. You overestimate the level of recoil dmg by a lottt

 

[Joim]

So far it isn't common neither on ladder nor in tournaments. We'll see if by next month statistics it's used more, but by no means it's the current standard.
PuP hits shit for coverage. Furthermore, HH means your teammate is not attacking/protecting/etc. which might not be always the best option.

I've run Double Edge (with and without Helping Hand), that's precisely why I know it's health draining and makes you die much faster, no matter how conservative you are being about Mega-K. It turns from a steady hard hitter into a frail sweeper.

 

[Mizuhime]

Why isn't this locked yet

pwne edit @ below: get told

 

[Magcargo]

Suspect discussion threads are usually locked after the suspect testing has occurred.

 

[dcae]

So apparently we can still discuss the suspect. As I've said a few times on #doubles, I don't believe it is a banworthy Pokemon. A few things must be taken into account imo, and I'll outline them shortly. First of all, Kangaskhan is stat wise and ability wise overwhelmingly good. However, a few factors serve to bypass this and make it not broken. First of all, its typing is in effect a huge flaw. Faster Fighting types check it easily, while other teams can take advantage of the fact that it has no resistances and reliable recovery in order to defeat it even with chip damage. It can't tank strong attacks either. Another thing is its sets. To be honest, Mega Kangaskhan lacks set variety, despite being ridiculously good at that one set. However, it is quite predictable. Any attempt to switch it up, for example Protect over Fake Out, will simply reduce its overall effectiveness. Naturally, a top threat has answers, and Kangaskhan has a few. In my experience, Ghosts traumatize Kangaskhan, and they aren't hard to fit onto a team either. Quicker Fighting types and Intimidate Fighting types can also cover it quite well. Will-o-Wisp, especially with the accuracy buff, is a solid and common answer to it. I feel running these does not make my team in any way worse or extremely limited, as each of the above does work independently if Kangaskhan is there or not. It isn't forcing people to resort to ridiculous things like it was forcing people to in singles.

Another thing I've noticed is the assumption PuP boosts have p much always taken effect in calcs. From my experience (albeit not as lengthy as most), this only comes as the result of a free turn. It isn't nearly as easy to set up as it was in OU, and throughout all my battles in Doubles using Kangaskhan, I've only gotten it up a couple times on the switch because using Sucker/Normal STAB is oftentimes the more preferrable move.

Overall, I don't find Mega Kangaskhan to be a banworthy Pokemon in this metagame.

 

[termi]

Mega Kangaskhan in doubles differs from Mega Kangaskhan in singles in two ways: in the first place, she is forced to run pretty much one moveset in doubles, asopposed to singles, where she could choose between a couple of coverage moves without losing much of her effectivity (Earthquake, Crunch, Fire Punch). In doubles she's stuck to one moveset without reducing her effectivity, meaning all you have to guess is what EV spread she's running. She's even more predictable in doubles than in singles; on top of that, unlike in singles, there are many top threats in doubles that can easily put a halt to Mega Kangaskhan, at least for long enough to weaken her into KO range. In singles, the only OU viable MKanga checks were Keldeo and Terrakion, whereas Skarmory with Rocky Helmet was a pseudo-check (usually died in the process of checking Kangaskhan) and Sableye was supposedly a psuedo-counter that usually didn't work (and who the hell uses Sableye in OU ffs). In doubles, common Pokemon like Hitmontop, Terrakion, Gengar, Scrafty and many more either don't care about anything Mkanga throws at them and can either finish her off without too much trouble or burn her.

Also, Mkanga was broken in singles as a sweeper that could also break walls. The thing is, sweeping is kinda hard to pull off in doubles, and while she's a fantastic Pokemon, she's simply incapable of taking down entire teams like she could in singles. She also doesn't have a reliable spread move (EQ is weak without Parental Bond).

Overall, not banworthy imo.

 

[Pocket]

The Voting Thread is up. Submit your votes!

PS: added dcae and Laurel to the list.

 

[Pocket]

With an overwhelming majority support (91%), Mega Kangaskhan will remain in Doubles

Next up is the Sleep Test!