Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Suspect Nomination and Discussion Thread

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I don't have much time to type something long out; but there is a huge base stat deifference between Giratina and Giratina-O (120/120 offenses for Giratina-O instead of 120/120 defenses). On top of that Giratina-O has Levitate, which is a big deal in doubles.
That being said I would sooner see Giratina come down because being able to fire off huge Draco meteors, shadow sneak to victory, and wield a hugely valuable ability in Levitate I see as much more valuable than more bulk (though that bulk is quite considerable). But as to me Tailwind + WoW = fuck everything I don't really want to see either come down.
 

Haruno

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I don't have much time to type something long out; but there is a huge base stat deifference between Giratina and Giratina-O (120/120 offenses for Giratina-O instead of 120/120 defenses). On top of that Giratina-O has Levitate, which is a big deal in doubles.
That being said I would sooner see Giratina come down because being able to fire off huge Draco meteors, shadow sneak to victory, and wield a hugely valuable ability in Levitate I see as much more valuable than more bulk (though that bulk is quite considerable). But as to me Tailwind + WoW = fuck everything I don't really want to see either come down.
The biggest difference between the two is gira-a can hold an item which allows it to be far bulkier than gira-o thanks to the fact that precious few things can 2hko it so lum/sitrus berry pushes its bulk to stupid levels.
 
Can we just agree that Giratina (A or O) needs to stay Uber? It is stupidly bulky with amazing typing and ability, has a great support Movepool AND can go offensive as well, with its uninvested DM able to 2hko so many things. I think we have enough discussion into actually viable Suspect Candidates that we don't need to fetch at crazy ideas just to stir up conversation.
 
After reading a lot of the points brought up by people I disagree with bringing down Giratina-o. The metagame is enjoyable at the moment and I doubt anything needs to go.
 

Mizuhime

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I think pocket snuck in the part about no sleep clause in OP but I'm in class right now so this post is going to be short and sweet. I thought it was fairly evident from my last post and from the other thread that it's my believe no mega Pokemon are broken in anyway possible. Kanga is predictable and normal type, zard-y dies to everything and mawile is slow and easy to burn. So yeah I'm going with No Suspect other then sleep clause. I'll also smack someone if giratina is tested, now ttyl imma be a good student
 

Pocket

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On a somewhat unrelated note, but I do think it's important... How does Giratina-O potentially being unbanned, but Giratina remaining banned fit with Smogon banning philosophy. It essentially amounts to a complex ban of all held items on Giratina (including no held item) except for Griseous Orb. Unlike the Therians or Skymin, etc, Giratina-O is literally just Giratina holding a Griseous Orb. Just a thought to consider, since it's a unique case.
Interesting point you bring up, srk1214. If we do indeed end up dropping Giratina-O, we would have to come up with some awkward ruling, such as "Giratina without Griseous Orb is banned." This can lead to some slippery slope situation, such as "Arceus without Toxic Plate is banned" to hypothetically drop Poison Arceus. Granted we can use our common sense to refuse such ridiculous proposition, but I am not even sure if it is feasible to implement such bans.

If the council do end up approving the Giratina(-O) test, it would be after testing Sleep Clause, so we would have plenty of time to sort out this issue.
 
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Joim

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Formes that change stat are considered "mons on their own", it's not a complex ban, it's just a forme ban. As an example, to ban Giratina on PS you ban "Giratina", to ban Giratina-O you ban "Giratina-Origin". To ban Arceus formes, you use their name too, not just "ban arceus".
 

Laga

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Nominating Kangaskhanite from a phone urgh

I do agree with some of packets reasons to let her stay, but I have a few arguments that i believe can warrant at least testing it. Tl;dr of this is going to be that Mega Kangaskhan is ridiculously easy to use and does in fact limit teambuilding.

• Mega Kangaskhan is easier to us in Doubles than Specs Latios in gen V OU. On one hand, Mega Kangaskhan is extremely predictable - but that doesn't neccesarily stop it from dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage. A simple set of Return, Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and PuP is almost impossible to counter and hard to check if played right. Furthermore, Fake Put even supports teammates and buys free turns, while doing 30+ percent to relatively bulky mons such as washtom. Once it gets to +2 you are simply not tanking a return; this isn't that hard btw. To check it, you basically need to play ridiculously smart or have a pokemon that is faster, resists sucker punch, and can hit it super effectively. Or double targetting and losing one mon (maybe two if partner can ohko smthing). Basically, even after you scouted the set, you have to play ridiculously carefully around it.

• Regarding its typing, I don't think not having useful resistances is a con, considering it has better bulk than fkin Jirachi... It's typing actually complements its bulk, since it only takes SE damage from fighting type moves, which got nerfed in gen 6 due to fairies.

This is all i have for 23:35 from a phone :p


edit shit i forgot

• Mega kangaskhan severely limits teambuilding, since bulky offense gets completely destroyed. You are basically forced to use a dedicated kanga counter if running a team full of slow "bulky" mons - otherwise kangas will give your opponent a large advantate, and you will honesly probably lose.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Am i the only one who is... perplexed by the mega kangaskhan nominations existing at all? He's a good Pokemon, obviously, but in my opinion he isn't even like, one of the best.

Kanga isn't a team player at all. Aside from Fake Out, literally the only thing she can do is knock things out. she can't even do what most other hitters do and switch into resists because she doesn't have any. There are honestly very few Pokemon in the game into which Kangaskhan can switch safely, which means not only is she useless in terms of defensive synergy, she also takes considerable effort to bring in mid-game. Compounding this is that Kanga is ridiculously predictable. because she's so hard to bring in, she almost always leads. she only has one set. she is forced to sucker punch or switch when threatened by a faster Pokemon. she doesn't even have room for protect. she doesn't have a spread move except the really shitty earthquake. Because of all this, there are so many ways to play around kanga. Jirachi 100% ruins absolutely every kanga ever. even a +2 kanga is beaten by faster poke + fm/rp user who redirects the sucker punch harmlessly. Intimidate neuters any kanga that has not yet found an opportunity to PuP which is pretty hard to find with the billion and one things that ruin kanga if not immediately Returned at (though return doesn't kill shit at -1). it literally cannot even hit ghost types that don't use an attacking move.

The only thing at which Kanga excels is dropping a strong or Scrappy Fake Out and threatening things with powerful +0 returns if your intimidate user is dead. If you find it actually threatening a sweep with PuP and Sucker Punch, then you need to learn how to competently support your own kanga checks or if that's too tall of an order, to actually pack Pokemon that threaten Kanga. It is literally not even the top Pokemon in the tier, I don't know why we're considering suspecting it before sleep clause. maybe after just for shits and giggles, but let's get our priorities straight.

Giratina-O has been covered to death and back in this thread, so I don't even feel the need to opine, but let me just say that as a member of the council, we're suspecting it over my dead body.

What this leaves me with is the conclusion that there is nothing to suspect at this time, save sleep. There are undoubtedly very strong Pokemon in this meta, such as Manaphy and Heatran, but nothing strikes me as worthy of a test. Our biggest priority is sorting out the question of Sleep.
 
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Mizuhime

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alright, to start of, I'm really not understanding why Giratina-o's name came up at all. This Pokemon is more then broken and it's just a waste of time to test it. If the reason is that Kanga is some how OP then why wouldn't you just ban Kanga? Giratina is a pointless ass suspect. Now for the people that say Kanga is broken, I can think of a plethora of Pokemon, Mawile-Mega, Tyranitar with super power, Landorus-t, Scrafty, Conkeldurr, Hitmontop, Ferrothorn, RH Garchomp.. just to name a few. o, I almost forgot every Ghost-type ever......... Charizard-Y is obviously good, but no better then a Pokemon like Tyranitar. Zard-y is still super frail, and dies to any Rock Move. I still stand by my statement that no mega Pokemon are broken, and there is no need to suspect any of them.
 
Don't have the time to write much up, but Mizuhime, please tell me how 78/78/115 is frail.
Do I need to pull up my Calc of how Geodude's Rock Slide OHKO's CharY? It has some Special Bulk and Drought cancels that Water weakness well enough, letting it even tank Rotom's HPump (I believe. Need to Calc to be sure), but no one is aiming at it with that when it's got that 4x Rock weakness. 78/78 defensively is certainly not bulky at all, especially when CB Adamant Talonflame OHKOs it no problem (81 attack)
 

Audiosurfer

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Ok I'll go w/ No Suspect. I don't find either Kangaskhan or Mega Charizard Y to be deserving of a suspect (the arguments of overcentralization are invalid seeing as all of the popular mons have been and would be popular even without Megazard in the tier, and saying that you need to use them or you lose is just untrue unless you're not a strong enough teambuilder/battler to try other things). Also, Giratina-O doesn't seem like something worth testing atm. As I've said in previous posts it is a fantastic mon that would be able to handle the vast majority of the tier's threats. if anything I don't see how the tier wouldn't centralize around Giratina-O, but I mainly just think it isn't worth the time to test, since it just seems p. obviously overpowered. As for Lugia, it's a hugely bulky Pokemon with Multiscale and good support options. Just because its offensive presence isn't too huge doesn't mean it should be in the tier, especially when it'd be so difficult to kill. Might change my mind later if some better arguments were presented but as of now those are my thoughts.
 
Do I need to pull up my Calc of how Geodude's Rock Slide OHKO's CharY?
It's a 4x Super Effective STAB attack coming off of 80 base attack, a OHKO is to be expected. 4/0 Heatran gets OHKOed by a LO Diglett, but does that prove anything? (hint: it doesn't) Charizard does have a pretty decent natural bulk considering it isn't investing in its bulk AT ALL, and its special bulk is certainly rather impressive for a Pokemon that has most of its weaknesses on the special side. Its also fast enough to avoid hits from a lot of the heavier hitters in the tier too. I don't think Charizard-Y is broken at all but seriously man don't let that (and Talonflame which hits a lot harder than most people think) alone convince you that its frail.

After thinking it over I have to say No Suspect for now because there are (usually) a lot of ways to stop Kangaskhanite. My biggest concern is Power Up Punch, but I lost to it mainly because I wasn't expecting it and didn't really pack a very dedicated counter. There are a lot of really good intimidate users and Kangakshan tends to get shut down by status, something that I can have a really big problem with, as well as Ghosts. There are also a lot of things that it fails to cover because it is really pressed for moveslots. I think Kangaskhan is manageable, and so is Charizard-Y, and I really think the metagame is balanced right now. Everything has really been covered at this point.

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Also, can we just not drop any Ubers please? I've already gave my thoughts on Giratina-O but Lugia is quite possibly worse than that. It is just way too bulky and Multiscale makes it ridiculously hard to crack. With Multiscale up, if you don't have Toxic on you or the worthless-in-doubles Stealth Rock (which makes it more manageable in singles), you will get stalled out.

Nothing special with the EVs but this is just to show how crazy it is...

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Multiscale Lugia in Sun: 66-78 (15.8 - 18.7%)
252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 93-111 (22.3 - 26.6%)
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 88-105 (21.1 - 25.2%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 105-124 (25.2 - 29.8%)
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 99-117 (23.7 - 28.1%)
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 103-123 (24.7 - 29.5%)
252+ Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 4-5 (0.9 - 1.2%)

Now these are really strong Pokemon and they do a fourth to Lugia if they are lucky. What doesn't help is that out of its weaknesses, Ghost and Dark do not have very good STABs, Electric-types are not very common, and Rock Slide is weakened. What this usually results in is a metagame where you will be forced to attack Lugia with both of your Pokemon if you want to do enough damage to it. This can easily be taken advantage of with other Pokemon as they can just do what they want while your busy taking out something that is almost never KOed at full health in doubles, I'm fairly sure, even if you use both your best attackers. The turn it is sent out, if planned correctly, Lugia can Tailwind and you can set up with a sweeper - this could be devastating. It's a complicated thing to explain, but Lugia is very hard to defeat unless you focus all your efforts into it - it is significantly harder to take out than even Cresselia and has a fairly good speed stat to get to Multiscale range again before it gets hit by its foes, if it wants to do that. I really don't feel like this would be healthy at all for the metagame.
 
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Lugia would be a monstrous threat, and I won't deny it is very likely to be broken, but its Multiscale can be broken with Stealth Rock as well as Toxic, Leech Seed and a Burn likes. Things like Ferrothorn and Jellicent will prove to be a huge problem to Lugia even if Lugia they can't do much back because they can keep Lugia's Multiscale permanently broken utilizing Leech Seed and Toxic/Will-O-Wisp, respectively.

There is also the option of unleashing Lugia without Multiscale, even if somewhat reeking to a complex ban, or rather a 'complex release', I feel this is less broken than no Sleep Clause (hi Dark Void).

Edit: And Stealth Rock is not worthless in Doubles. I have yet to see a match without a switch on the opponents side. Either because of detrimental side effects (Superpower/V-create), resetting Intimidate and Fake Out (Scrafty and Hitmontop as well as Arcanine, Gyarados and Landorus), being hard countered (Ferrothorn vs Volcarona), etc...

Shaving off 50% from Charizard-Y's health when it wants to reset Drought is nice too.
 
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phantom

Banned deucer.
So I spent a little while thinking about my vote and basically reading the comments on this thread, while taking into account my own experiences in the meta as well what I've observed from "higher level play". Here goes.

re Kangaskhanite: I'm going to agree with the people that think it's not broken. Indeed, Mega Kangaskhan is one of the more powerful threats in Doubles atm, and while yes it is predictable, there's a reason for that: it's very effective at what it does. It packs two roles into one: an offensive utility mon with Fake Out and a sweeper with Power-Up Punch. However, the means in which it's checked doesn't require you to run something obscure. Its checks are rather effective Pokemon / strategies in the metagame, and the amount of countermeasures towards beating it are rather widespread. Regardless of Mega Kangaskhan's influence, you'll still find at least one Intimidate user per team or at least a good Fighting- / Ghost-type. That's not even mentioning how MeKanga is utterly screwed by Will-O-Wisp or double-targeting. Furthermore, while yes MeKanga can run ways to bypass bulkier Ghost-types, dissuade double-targeting, and even burns through the use of Crunch, Protect, and Facade, respectively, at what cost does it come by? What will Mega Kangaskhan forgo in order to beat its usual checks? Will it relinquish its utility capabilities with Fake Out; will it become more susceptible to revenge killers by dropping sucker punch; or will it just forget the idea of sweeping altogether and push Power-Up Punch aside? Yes Mega Kangaskhan can deviate from its standard set, but it has to sacrifice something crucial in order to do so, and this leaves it vulnerable to quite a few other threats as a result. Overall, its sheer predictability, inability to counteract its checks without losing its usual effectiveness, as well as the raw ubiquity in its checks makes me believe that Mega kangaskhan is not broken. As for how it shapes the meta, I don't feel its gives off a positive nor a negative influence. All it does it require you to adjust your team ever-so slightly to beat it, and that's pretty much the same deal with any top tier threat, really.

re Charizardite-Y: This isn't a Pokemon that I consider to be broken either. In fact, I find that Charizard-Y brings a rather positive influence: it makes sun good. I'm assuming most people that are posting here played BW Doubles, so we all know how "great" sun teams where at that time. I feel as if Charizard-Y increases the diversity in this meta by making sun mons and chlorophyll users a thing. You can run rain, hail, sand, trick room, sun, and just about anything and be successful, that's what's nice about this meta. The fact that sun teams are usable now, let alone the premier weather, is pretty exciting. Now, I don't subscribe to the sub-par reasoning, "this Pokemon brings something good for the meta, don't ban it", I'm simply stating the positives towards keeping Charizard-Y. There are a few things that keep it from being broken in my eyes. The first of which is its speed stat, while not "slow", it's not necessarily fast either considering things like Terrakion and Thundurus-T can outspeed and KO. The second is the weather nerf, which makes it rather easy to stall out sun turns if needed. The third, is the fact that it can't boost its special attack in any way. If it could use something like Quiver Dance or Nasty Plot and then ram through the opposing team with infinite sun-boosted heat waves, I'd hop on the ban hammer wagon in a heart beat. Fourth, its checks aren't very hard to come by. As stated by almost everyone else, Heatran and Tyranitar won't all of a sudden fall of the face of the earth if Mega Zard-y leaves, they're being used due to the fact that they're good; the ability to check zard-y is just another goodie for them. Lastly, it can't carry an item. This means that it can't pull off any surprises with a scarf set or heal itself with a sitrus berry, or boost its offenses with a life orb, etc. In conclusion, It's a very powerful Pokemon that's just on the edge of being broken, but it just doesn't have that "something-something" to make it so.

re Giratina-O: At first I didn't think it was a bad idea suspecting it. I mean Giratina-O does some pretty neat things in that it basically makes 4 out of the 5 or so S-rank mons its bitch. On top of that, it seemed that its weaknesses to Ice-, Dragon-, and Ghost-types moves would help keep that colossal bulk in check; however, judging by the counter-arguments towards a tina suspect as well what I could gather based on speculation alone, it's just all the more apparent that it's not the best idea. The thing with Giratina-O that strikes me is that not only is it incredibly bulky, but it hits deceptively hard too. It can't hold an item, true, but that's not a very strong case when its default item basically boosts both of its STABs by 20% with no catches. The other thing is that you have to specifically dedicate something to beat it and even then you're not assured to take it down. So lets say you run Bisharp or Ttar to take down Giaratina-o, but then it runs something like Will-O-Wisp to screw them over. Now lets say wisp tina becomes popular on the ladder, then more of tina's checks would start running lum berry. But Giratina isn't just limited to wisp, it can just forgo the move and 2HKO ttar and OHKO bisharp with aura sphere. My point here is that Giratina can adjust its moveset to bypass almost every single countermeasure you can try and at the same time, it doesn't appear as if its performance is hindered in any way. This isn't even acknowledging support it can provide by spreading burns and even screw over faster checks with Tailwind or freaking shadow sneak. Simply put, it doesn't appear as if there's a way to beat Giratina-o until you've scouted the moveset, and at the point, you better be lucky enough to have something that can deal with that exact combination of moves. In short, it's just another Uber and should stay that way.

re Lugia: I'm not even going to go into this one. This thing is basically Cresselia x2 squared. So yeah, fuck that. I'd rather not deal with an improved Cresselia clone that can still be run with Cresselia for more support-mon nightmares... /me shudders

As for my vote... No Suspect.

Let me just say that this is one of the most balanced meta I've ever had the pleasure of playing. While it is balanced, it isn't bland either! The amount of strategies you can run and still be successful is almost immeasurable. I feel as if that banning anything will really screw with this great meta. Banning Kanga will lose out on a really cool physical attacker, banning Zard-Y means that sun teams go back to being dead, and freeing Giratina-O or Lugia will just introduce an unhealthy amount of overcentralization. The meta is fine just the way it is. Everything can be checked in one form or another without restricting team building. I'm not opposed to any sort of suspect (especially if better arguments are presented), but I think this route is probably the best.

tl;dr Mega Kangaskhan is not broken. Mega Charizard-Y is not broken. Leave Giratina-O where it is. Fuck Lugia. No suspect. :toast:
 
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Pocket

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Thank you for posting, Icecream :toast: I am open to testing Giratina-O if there's a major consensus that the current meta can handle it and if it provides any benefits to Doubles. When you consider Giratina-O, though, there are a few concerns, which have been brought up already:

Dragon / Ghost is an excellent typing. Dragon and Ghost offers Giratina some kick-ass offensive and defensive coverage. Its Dragon-typing lets it survive the elements, while Ghost-typing allow Giratina-O to ignore Fake Out and Fighting-type moves. Combine that with Levitate to avoid Earthquake, and you got a Pokemon with amazing defensive capabilities. youngjake93 has mentioned that Giratina-O have some common weaknesses, but Dark-, Ghost-, and Ice-type moves are only seen on a handful of Pokemon; Kyurem-B, a successful "drop" from Ubers, have a lot less useful resistances / immunities, a vast array of exploitable weaknesses, and worse raw bulk (150/100/100 > 125/100/90). Add onto that, Ghost- and Dragon-typing are lethal types offensively.

Giratina-O's offensive prowess is no joke. Griseous Orb and Giratina's large movepool complements its powerful typing to form a powerful offensive beast. With Griseous Orb's 20% boosts in its STAB moves, Giratina-O's Shadow Ball is hitting slightly harder than Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball and its Draco Meteor slightly less harder than a Latios's Life Orb-boosted Draco Meteor! That's quite impressive in terms of raw power. Giratina-O is similar to Kangaskhan in that there are no items that offer Giratina the most offensive benefits than Griseous Orb. It's physical STABs aint shabby either, with an actually decent Ghost STAB in Shadow Force, priority Shadow Sneak, and Shadow Claw; Dragon STAB in Dragon Claw and Outrage; and some useful coverage moves in Earthquake, Iron Tail, Aqua Tail, and Stone Edge. Special coverage moves include Earth Power, Aura Sphere, and Thunder(bolt). Here's a simple yet effective set that it may run:


Giratina @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Aura Sphere
- Protect
- Substitute / Calm Mind / Will-O-Wisp

The last slot can be anything really, but I thought those three were the most annoying. I can bet Giratina-O behind a sub to be game-changing, as well as Giratina-O after some Calm Mind boosts. Will-O-Wisp would also be annoying when combined with such high offensive pressure (Rotom-W on steroids?)

Giratina-O's support options are just as diverse. Will-O-Wisp alone is a major utility move, but Giratina also has the option of running Thunder Wave, Safeguard, Tailwind, Icy Wind, and Destiny Bond. Hell it can even use Defog if Stealth Rock becomes more problematic.

My initial impression of Giratina-O is that it is an extremely diverse and flexible Pokemon that can shut down many top threats of current OU, but does not necessarily increase the diversity of the metagame. If anything, I believe it would shut down too many Pokemon (Kangaskhan, Charizard Y, Hitmontop, Breloom, Keldeo, Heatran, Landorus-T, Volcarona, Rotom-W, Amoonguss, Scizor, Cresselia) and as a result shrink the pool of super viable Pokemon, which is a concern that I have in letting Giratina-O drop.

Lugia

If anything I find Lugia to be a less worrisome drop. It's offensive presence is unimpressive, especially with its Psychic- and Flying-typing. It also has additional weaknesses and a barren support movepool (no wisp, no trick room, no helping hand). I would hesitate to call Lugia drop-worthy, though, since it has Roost to reliably replenish its health back to MultiScale range. Combine its fatness with its impeccable 110 base Speed, and it can be quite the troublemaker. Although its movepool is dry compared to Giratina-O, it still has plenty of utility moves to make it work (Safe Swag, Dual Screens, weather / tailwind summoner, paralysis, Skill Swap). It's bulk and Speed may also help facilitate its offensive capabilities as well, such as Calm Mind @ Weakness Policy. It's a lot less impressive than Giratina-O, but its immense bulk may be too good for Doubles.
 
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Mizuhime

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re Lugia and Girtina-o:
ill end someones life, and other than that I don't have much to say other than both are more annoying Cresselias. Lugia has fucking multiscale tailwind, screens, reliable recovery (roost and recover), while Giratina will be impossible to kill and it can just spam Draco Meteors at will- I feel like even considering these Pokemon is a stupid waste of time that will ruin the meta. You would literally be dumb to not use either of them (not sure on what exactly broken means but I think that's a pretty obvious factor)

and this is putting it nicely

ps: if we wanna play around with clearly broken mons can it at least be fun ones like Kygore
 
No suspect.

Kanga and Zard are obviously top-tier threats but they both have solid answers that easily keep them at bay. Kanga does need those one or two hard counters, and if they go down, Kanga can wreck the opposing team when played well. Zard can use a large variety of coverage with awesome power, going either physical or special with its mega evolutions. Thankfully, there are holes in Zard-Y's coverage and Intimidate users are popular to keep Zard-X at bay. Neither of these mons bring an over-centralizing force to the metagame, they are just the top-tier threats which every tier acknowledges and highlights. To start banning stuff because it is work to play around it will create a chain reaction leading to a shitty tier. Let's keep this current, balanced tier we have right now, shall we?

And yea, about the ubers:
me two seconds ago said:
Let's keep this current, balanced tier we have right now, shall we?
Their is nothing balanced about Cresselias with fighting power. I don't have time to go in more depth, but I shouldn't need to lol. Welp they are not as centralizing as sleep clause amirite.
 

Joim

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Let's see, about the nominations here:

Kangaskhanite
Probably the best mega, but not Uber by any means. The main problem with Mega-K is that unless you pack Facade burn ruins your day and you have to lose turns using P-u-P, what makes it vulnerable to double target. Since it barely never packs Protect, either it or the switch in will eat the double attacks that may come then. Using Facade with no burn means less power so less KOs. Additionally, support Ghost-types just laugh at it as regular Mega-K can't touch them and the EQ variants can only hit a handful of them. Then those support ghosts are free to wreak havoc burning, disabling, tormenting, confusing, or just using HH and Mega-K can't do shit about it besides switch out and lose momentum or rely entirely on its partner. Not a good picture.

Charizardite-Y
We all agree it's good. However, we all agree that the ever present Rock Slide and the less common Stone Edge and even Rock Tomb will mostly always OHKO it. See:
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T (No Move) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 256-304 (85.9 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(Let's remember that Rock Tomb is not STAB here)
Landorus-T at -1 can OHKO with Rock Tomb (it's not on the calc) 12.5% of the times. Add in a Fake out or just not a -1 and you can see how difficult it is to keep ChariYard alive. You need Intimidate and you need burns. It's much more weak to common threats than Mega-K, you need to clean up to be able to use it freely and the worst problem it's that it's very easy to pack Rock Slide around to deal with it or just use Stone Edge on Scrafty instead of your fourth filler move on AV set to dispatch ChariYard. True, if you let spit Heat Waves you are roasted. True, its Solar Beam can destroy unprepared Water- and Ground- types that commonly see use. However, it's so easy to stop this powerful mon it isn't even funny. Yeah, I'd still place it 2nd best mega under Mega-K, probably, but it's just not Uber... at all. Ho-Oh needed more bulk, Regenerator, and Sacred Fire to get there.

Giratina-O
Guys, are you serious? This monster packs monstruous defenses, packs excellent dual STAB combination, is immune to most Earthquakes... this would be the definite answer to Mega-K, true, but you would also see it in any team which has been built under the knowledge that you can use it. Giratina-O would be too powerful for the metagame, rendering Hitmontop and Mega-K useless, it could also deal with Scrafty as it can burn it and will take meh damage from Knock Off. No, just no, there's no need to test it to realise it'd be wrong to unban it.

Lugia
More or the same, to be honest. Excellent typing, incredibly good ability, gargantuan natural bulk, and decent movepool. With any of these two Ubers (or both?!) free, stall or defensive would reign supreme on the metagame. Lugia is very difficult to break, especially with the aversion to Stealth Rock on Doubles. You'd need Fake Out and powerful double attacks to wear it down while its partner just owns you. Let's not think about testing this, please. Kinda the same problem as Giratina-O: too difficult to break while it can support the enemy team or even deal some hits. It's like Cresselia on steroids. Keep it healthy with Roost and Leftovers and Multiscale will it make impossible, you'll need w-o-w or toxic.
 
Before I get started, I will apologize for any repetition of what others have said; I only skimmed the previous posts so its highly plausible that I missed some good points that other people made.

No Suspect

Looking at the discussion, the main suspects I see flying around (pun intended for 3 out of 4 of them) are Charizard-Mega-Y, Kangaskhan-Mega, Lugia, and Giratina-O.

Charizard-Mega-Y is in no way centralizing the way I see it. It hits really hard, has coverage options, good bulk on the special side, supports its team with Sun, and has 100 base speed, all of which is certainly great and makes it easily a top threat. But it has a ton of flaws as well, including Electric-, Water- (making it very susceptible to rain teams after it has Mega Evolved), and Rock-type weaknesses, reliance on Sun to make use of Solarbeam (which is an important moveslot for nailing bulky Water-types), and fairly frail physical defenses (Mega Mawile can 2HKO with Sucker Punch, 252+ Mega Kanga OHKOs with Return, Rock Slide from a lot of things OHKOs, etc). Overall, I'd judge that its weaknesses balance it out, especially when Rock Slide was already everywhere before Charizard-Y became a thing. It also is pretty easy to outspeed, even more so when you note it can't hold a Choice Scarf or the likes.

Kangashkan-Mega is a powerful Fake Out abuser and solid sweeper, that's very clear with the large number of games it has won even in the top levels of play. But in practice there are several effective ways to beat it. Ghost-types and burns, as mentioned by Joim, will ruin its day unless it hasn't Mega Evolved (aka weaksauce damage output in comparison to its Mega) or packs Crunch or Facade respectively, both of which are very situational choices that will leave it open to other things if used. Intimidate won't be able to keep up with Power-Up Punch, but it still weakens Kangaskhan's offensive presence, and every turn you slow Kanga down is a turn to rack up more damage on it, which typically works really well granted it only runs Protect on occasion. Bulky Fighting-types, i.e. Scrafty, Hitmontop, Conkeldurr, etc can all deal heavy blows to Kangashkan. Finally, things like Rough Skin Garchomp and Ferrothorn are useful for racking up recoil damage on Kangashkan (Rough Skin/Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet will deal slightly over 50% to Kangashkan-Mega following a Return/Sucker Punch/etc since it hits twice).

Some arguments have been made that things like Heatran switching in on Will-O-Wisp and Defiant support from Bisharp will minimize these weaknesses, but proper play can refute these techniques, just as proper play can use them to win. The fact you can win with something when you make good calls and give it some team support doesn't mean it is overpowered or overcentralizing in any way. My overall call here is that Kangashkan is the same case as Charizard-Y; its a powerful threat in the metagame, but a perfectly counterable one.

Giratina-O seems to be a pretty heated debate. But from what I have seen those who are supporting dropping it are missing a big point: overcentralization. You see, when you drop something because it counters all of the top threats in the metagame this interesting thing happens: it becomes the new top threat in the metagame. If it were dropped down, the metagame would turn from the balanced one that I believe it is now to a game where the goal is usually either "eliminate the opposing Giratina-O so Kanga/CharY/etc can sweep" or "keep Giratina-O alive so Kanga/CharY/etc can't sweep". And this is before we even get to the highly arguable discussion on its movepool/bulk/offenses (all of which are really good btw). Whether or not it can be countered isn't even relevant imo, because due to how overcentralizing it would be it HAS to be countered. You will HAVE to keep counters to it alive in order to win, and this will involve sacrificing other members of your team which will ultimately leave you open to other threats, such as Kangashkan-Mega or Heatran. The logic behind the idea is good, I'll give youngjake that much credit, but it ultimately backfires (a lot, I might add).

Lugia.... wow. Yeah, no. This thing may not be massively anti-metagame like Giratina-O would be, but it has Multiscale with 106 / 130 / 154 defenses and Roost (along with Sitrus Berry or Leftovers). Bulk that insane will allow you to keep Light Screen/Reflect up, spam Thunder Wave/Icy Wind, use Safeguard + Swagger, and whatever else you feel like doing all day long. Heck, you can even just use a simple Calm Mind set and sweep almost every team in existence with only minimal support.

The metagame is pretty balanced overall, though I will admit I haven't seen as much creativity flying around as I'd like. My guess is that's more the players (or something along those lines) than something actually being wrong with the balance of the metagame itself, though.
 
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Lugia.... wow. Yeah, no. This thing may not be massively anti-metagame like Giratina-O would be, but it has Multiscale with 106 / 130 / 154 defenses and Roost (along with Sitrus Berry or Leftovers). Bulk that insane will allow you to keep Light Screen/Reflect up, spam Thunder Wave/Icy Wind, use Safeguard + Swagger, and whatever else you feel like doing all day long (while this is completely irrelevant to the point I can't help but laugh at the fact that Giratina-O has Tailwind when Lugia doesn't... yeah the logic there is really great). Heck, you can even just use a simple Calm Mind set and sweep almost every team in existence with only minimal support.
It does get Tailwind though. More of a reason to not let it in :P
 
this is why I shouldn't wait to post. Everyones said everything, and everyones repeating each other at this point, so I don't really want to be a part of that. I'll just state my thoughts on each mon being discussed, then state my nomination.

Kangaskhanite: kanga is not broken idek how people came to this conclusion lol. Its a very useful Pokemon, and provides great utility as well as being a strong attacker in its own right. However, it doesn't go over the top with this. It goes to a point where its a fun mon to use, and slightly annoying to play against at times. Definitely not broken. Also all the intimidate and will-o-wisp really fucks it over (along with every ghost ever).

charizardite y: yeah not broken. Once again, its a great mon which can support the team with drought and tailwind support if you choose while being a good offensive Pokemon (the main draw of it). And once again, it doesn't go overboard with it. Zardy makes some otherwise mediocre Pokemon good, and in general creates a more fun and diverse meta, it really does not need to be banned.

gira-o: fuck off lol. Really good bulk, strong offensive stats coupled with a boost on stabs at the cost of no item choice. Lots of choices for support moves, will stay alive forever (not quite as much as lugia but we're not there yet). While I would like to test it in the future, as I believe it has the potential (slim, but its there!) to not be broken, sleep and a couple of other clauses are higher priority imo.

lugia: a buffed up cresselia but with less support moves. I was in full support of a test at first, but after reading arguments itt and arguing on #doubles about it, I've been convinced sort of. Like with gira, I'd like to see a test for this in the future, but for now I don't think its a good idea, as there are other priorities.

the stance I am taking with this is No Suspects. I would like to see an evasion and moody test after sleep, but that's for later (and I know I'm in the minority here), so not gonna argue it here. For now, we have a great balanced fun meta which we should play the shit out of cos its awesome ok
 

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Lasagne, if you're voting no to these suspects simply because you want to test sleep next, you're decision is based on a faulty premise. Sleep will be tested next. Lugia / Giratina-O, if either of them gains support, would be tested after the Sleep test; we're simply making the decision to test them (after the sleep test) now.

tl;dr - If you have any Pokemon that you would like to test in the future, you should nominate or support them.
 
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