Dragons of Generation 5

[Aerrow]

Ono will not be in OU alongside Mence and Chomp hopefully. If it is then that's a horrible failure of our playerbase.

(Barring, of course, Tutor moves that set it apart)

I seriously don't think you should be thinking about tiers this early; here's a couple of reasons why; We don't know the entire learnsets of these Pokemon so talking about usage and showing comparisons can be part of the discussion but mentioning tiers should not be talked about as this is too early of a stage.

 

[Lucindril]

Maybe we should move off the Ononokusu topic and just assume he's a glass cannon for now. >_> I think it's a shame to shun a Pokemon when it has such a badass looking sprite, that's all. =P

Mind you, what's stopping Sazando from being in the same boat as Ononokusu? Probably that Special Attack stat, but still, its Speed is still troll, and not in the way that most of us like it.

 

[Jibaku]

# 644: Zekrom (Dragon/ Electric)
100/ 150/ 120/ 120/ 100/ 90
Terra Voltage
The Black Yin Pokemon. Just like its counterpart, Reshiram, Zekrom has a unique typing – Dragon/ Electric; but unlike the White Yang Pokemon, Zekrom’s offensive base stat layout is basically the opposite of Reshiram’s. While its counterpart has a base 150 SpA stat and a base 120 Atk stat, Zekrom has a base 150 Atk stat and a base 120 SpA stat so it will wreak the same havoc Reshiram will, but only on the other side of the offensive spectrum.

Level Up: [#644]: Lv1: Thunder Fang, Lv1: Dragon Rage, Lv8: Imprison, Lv15: AncientPower, Lv22: Thunderbolt, Lv29: DragonBreath, Lv36: Slash, Lv43: Zen Headbutt, Lv50: [M559], Lv54: Dragon Claw, Lv64: Imprison, Lv71: Crunch, Lv78: Thunder, Lv85: Outrage, Lv92: Hyper Voice, Lv100: [M550]

Learnable TMs: TM01 - Claw Sharpen, TM02 - Dragon Claw, TM06 - Toxic, TM10 - Hidden Power, TM15 - Hyper Beam, TM16 - Light Screen, TM17 - Protect, TM18 - Rain Dance, TM20 - Safeguard, TM21 - Frustration, TM24 - Thunderbolt, TM25 - Thunder, TM27 - Return, TM29 - Psychic, TM30 - Shadow Ball, TM32 - Double Team, TM33 - Reflect, TM39 - Rock Tomb, TM42 - Facade, TM44 - Rest, TM48 - Troll, TM49 - Echo Voice, TM52 - Focus Blast, TM56 - Fling, TM57 - Charge Beam, TM65 - Shadow Claw, TM66 - Payback, TM68 - Giga Impact, TM70 - Flash, TM71 - Stone Edge, TM72 - Volt Charge, TM73 - Thunder Wave, TM80 - Rock Slide, TM82 - Dragon Tail, TM87 - Swagger, TM90 - Substitute, TM91 - Flash Cannon, TM93 - Wild Bolt, TM94 - Rock Smash, HM01 - Cut, HM02 - Fly, HM04 - Strength

Move Tutor: Draco Meteor

M559: Cross Thunder. 5 PP, 100 BP, 100% Acc, Physical, increases in power if used after Cross Flame
M550: [Lightning]. 5 PP, 130 BP, 85% Acc, Physical, 20% chance to paralyze

Resists: 4x Electric / 2x Fire / 2x Grass / 2x Water / 2x Flying / 2x Steel
Weaks: 2x Ground / 2x Ice / 2x Dragon

*******************************************************

okay let's begin with my favorite BW Pokemon: Zekrom. Electric/Dragon is a cool offensive typing, resisted only by Magnezone, Steelix, Doryuuzu (Ground/Steel), and Nattorei (Grass/Steel). As you can see, Zekrom hits like a nuke, having access to Draco Meteor as well as a 130 BP physical electric move. In fact, Zekrom is strong enough to OHKO the bulkiest of Kyogre without any boosting item through that move alone.

Unfortunately, Zekrom has a few issues. Its movepool sucks compared to the other Dragons (it doesn't even get Earthquake, yet Latias does?), though Zekrom thankfully has excellent coverage and power in its STABs. The lack of Fire move bites though. Also, Teravoltage, though cool in name, does almost absolutely nothing for Zekrom. 90 base Speed is terrible as well, along with weaks to Ground/Ice/Dragon :(

Something like this can probably work

Zekrom @ Haban Berry / Life Orb
Trait: Teravoltage
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SAtk (as to prevent speed creeps)
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Draco Meteor
- M550
- Volt Charge / Thunder Wave
- Focus Blast / Thunder Wave / Hidden Power Fire

Okay, the EV spreads are just preliminary atm. He's going to have more speed than zero. M550 is strong enough to OHKO the bulkiest of Kyogre, while destroying Blissey and Steels, while Draco Meteor hits Groudon switch ins (given that Zekrom is physically oriented, Groudon is more likely to come in), and clears Garchomp out. Volt Charge is well...U-turn I guess, allowing you to continue momentum, but may not be as useful as the counterpart because of the insane power of DM / M550 anyways. Because Thunder Wave hits Ground types now (I think), you can toss that around more freely, and it fixes Zekrom's Speed issue to an extent. Focus Blast is really just for Nattorei, should it become common in Ubers. It also hits Dialga harder than Draco Meteor. HP Fire is well...for the same reason I guess.

Haban means he'll survive most dragon moves (won't be ohkoed by Scarf Dialga Draco Meteor after SR). Life Orb means Zekrom hits like a ridiculous nuke (he OHKOes max/max+ Lugia with it and M550), but it sacrifices Zekrom's survivability by quite a bit.

 

[Ice-eyes]

No, but resorting to Outrage isn't as bad in that scenario. Since you've boosted your stats, Steels are going to take a good chunk and since you're not running mixed like MixNite you don't want an Attack drop.

Does DDNite run Superpower? I thought not.

EDIT: Right. Zekrom. Yeah, it's sort of ruined by stuff switching into its Volt Charges but it's pretty cool nonetheless. I'm more interested in Reshiram's ability to fire off Turbo Blaze Sun-boosted Fire Blasts, though.

 

[Camara]

I think people are missing a point. I think no one here is suggesting Salamence is worse than Axedragon or so. They are just suggesting Axedragon is a pain in the ass. And it is. Is Salamence too? Yes. Don't you remember Salamence was banned to ubers? Skarmory can be 2HKO'd by Axedragon's Outrage. SKARMORY.

So, Salamence, Garchomp, Axedragon have 1 turn of set up and 95% of the metagame dies to them. Not good, specially after the new Outrage unlock on steels.

Dragonite will always keep its status of balanced dragon with stellar movepool, so even outside Dragon Dance/Outrage sets it will live well.

Flygon may lose some power, but it is always a reliable hitter.

Kingdra will love Politoed.

Hydragon will always be ok with its unique typing and good stats.

The slow dragon doesn't impress me at all. UU dragon I say. However the typing and attack means it isn't weak.

Altaria has Cloud Nine, so its usage will improve.

Lati@s are as good as they were.

 

[AxelLow]

I messed up the calcs for Sazando against Shanderaa, if anyone cares. Dark Pulse and Crunch need LO + boosting nature to always OHKO after SR, and Dark Pulse will be affected by CM, requiring 2 hits to KO it. But taking into consideration that Shanderaa will probably have a sub up as the pokemon with Shed Shell switches out, both Dark Pulse and Crunch can comfortably OHKO without a boosting nature or LO after Substitute + SR, so Sazando can run Timid or Jolly without ruining its ability to check Shanderaa.

I personally love the hell out of this.

I also agree with Camara, Luc, Aerrow, and to an extent, Ice.

 

[Aerrow]

Maybe we should move off the Ononokusu topic and just assume he's a glass cannon for now. >_> I think it's a shame to shun a Pokemon when it has such a badass looking sprite, that's all. =P

Mind you, what's stopping Sazando from being in the same boat as Ononokusu? Probably that Special Attack stat, but still, its Speed is still troll, and not in the way that most of us like it.

Personally, by looking at their base stats, I think Sazando will be quite more useful than Ononokusu as it has great defenses, while also boasting great offensive stats and speed.

 

[deluge]

That have been banned to Ubers in Gen IV, where the power level is considerably lower. Gen V will at least start out with Mence / Chomp / Latias unbanned.

Yes, but you did not cite a Gen V Pokemon as outclassing Ononokusu you picked a Gen III and a Gen IV Pokemon.
So apparently it's the best you could come up with given all we know about Gens I-V.

So why would you go back to a general generational 'power level' argument to muddy the water?
Is Ononokusu part of the reason Gen V's power level is considered high or is he a counterexample?
If he is an anomaly, pick the similar Gen V Pokemon that outclasses this terrible mon.

Furthermore the Pokemon that you claim outclass Ononokusu were deemed to have outclassed all of Gen IV's OU.
So it is hardly a strong indictment against Ononkusu to say it also outclassed by them given that these Pokemon are apparently abnormally good among most of 493 Pokemon.

My Pointe?
Underhyping is just as off-the-mark as overhyping.

 

[Micah B.]

Ono only hits 6.5% harder than Mence. He's inferior to Mence and Chomp and if they're all in the same tier then a comparison is completely fair.

I hope Ono will be more PoryZ than Electivire (ie it will actually not be used and then end up in BL).

Ice-eyes, your missing the main point - sure it hits 6.5% harder than Mence but your disregarding its useful perks that distinguish it from both Salamence and Garchomp. Mold Breaker allows it to tear through Skarmory - a Pokemon Garchomp typically has problems breaking through (assuming they run physically defensive). Mono Dragon type is also a god sent typing granting it more opportunities to switch into fairly common attacking moves, while giving it the ability to take occasional Ice shard without taking a hefty x4 punishment from it. I wouldn't pull the inferior card on it based on theorymon, let's face it Ono has some interesting perks that allow it to play alongside its Dragon brethren and I just feel like your ignoring its main selling points as a sweeper.

From a prediction standpoint, Ono will probably tear stall sufficiently better than Salamence and Garchomp would - why? Not a lot of stall Pokemon can easily exploit its weakness due to to its single Dragon typing and unlike Garchomp and Salamence, Pokemon who can take a physical blow and hit back with a strong enough Ice moves can stop them. I don't think anyone can really stop Ono when your running stall, so you might want to think about that.

 

[AxelLow]

Personally, by looking at their base stats, I think Sazando will be quite more useful than Ononokusu as it has great defenses, while also boasting great offensive stats and speed.

Sazando will have more wide spread usage, while Ono will need some dedication to (as do a few other DD'ers).

 

[Aerrow]

okay let's begin with my favorite BW Pokemon: Zekrom. Electric/Dragon is a cool offensive typing, resisted only by Magnezone, Steelix, Doryuuzu (Ground/Steel), and Nattorei (Grass/Steel). As you can see, Zekrom hits like a nuke, having access to Draco Meteor as well as a 130 BP physical electric move. In fact, Zekrom is strong enough to OHKO the bulkiest of Kyogre without any boosting item through that move alone.

Unfortunately, Zekrom has a few issues. Its movepool sucks compared to the other Dragons (it doesn't even get Earthquake, yet Latias does?), though Zekrom thankfully has excellent coverage and power in its STABs. The lack of Fire move bites though. Also, Teravoltage, though cool in name, does almost absolutely nothing for Zekrom. 90 base Speed is terrible as well, along with weaks to Ground/Ice/Dragon :(

Something like this can probably work

Zekrom @ Haban Berry / Life Orb
Trait: Teravoltage
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SAtk (as to prevent speed creeps)
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Draco Meteor
- M550
- Volt Charge / Thunder Wave
- Focus Blast / Thunder Wave / Hidden Power Fire

Okay, the EV spreads are just preliminary atm. He's going to have more speed than zero. M550 is strong enough to OHKO the bulkiest of Kyogre, while destroying Blissey and Steels, while Draco Meteor hits Groudon switch ins (given that Zekrom is physically oriented, Groudon is more likely to come in), and clears Garchomp out. Volt Charge is well...U-turn I guess, allowing you to continue momentum, but may not be as useful as the counterpart because of the insane power of DM / M550 anyways. Because Thunder Wave hits Ground types now (I think), you can toss that around more freely, and it fixes Zekrom's Speed issue to an extent. Focus Blast is really just for Nattorei, should it become common in Ubers. It also hits Dialga harder than Draco Meteor. HP Fire is well...for the same reason I guess.

Haban means he'll survive most dragon moves (won't be ohkoed by Scarf Dialga Draco Meteor after SR). Life Orb means Zekrom hits like a ridiculous nuke (he OHKOes max/max+ Lugia with it and M550), but it sacrifices Zekrom's survivability by quite a bit.

This looks exceptional; though maybe the EVs can be tinkered with to add a bit of speed though I don't suppose he'll need it due to its massive bulk preventing it from being easily revenge killed.

 

[Ice-eyes]

What with the insane power of stuff like Weather, Doryuuzu, the Genies, the Fighting horse quartet, Shanderaa and Sazando, the power level is considerably higher this generation. This means that Mence and Chomp are less likely to be broken, which means that they'll probably end up in OU - where they outclass Ono.

Can we please stop having this argument?

EDIT: @ Micah, Mold Breaker EQ doesn't hit Flying-types, only levitators; Skarmory walls Ono still. The pure Dragon typing is as much a curse as a blessing, defensive teams are likely to be less common and Ono can't take hits nearly as well as Mence and especially Chomp. Ono has cool perks but they really don't outweigh the lack of Speed and bulk, plus worse typing (and lack of STAB EQ vs Chomp / unpredictability vs. Mence).

 

[Luf]

Yes, but you did not cite a Gen V Pokemon as outclassing Ononokusu you picked a Gen III and a Gen IV Pokemon.
So apparently it's the best you could come up with given all we know about Gens I-V.

So why would you go back to a general generational 'power level' argument to muddy the water?
If the power level of Ononokusu's Gen V is so high why is he so weak?
Pick the similar Gen V Pokemon that outclasses this terrible mon?

Furthermore the Pokemon that you claim outclass Ononokusu were deemed to have outclassed all of Gen IV's OU.
So it is hardly a strong indictment against Ononkusu to say it also outclassed by them given that these Pokemon are apparently abnormally good.

My Pointe?
Underhyping is just as off-the-mark as overhyping.

I like how you ignored my post arguing about the "stupid conclusion" crap.

 

[Aerrow]

What with the insane power of stuff like the Genies, the Fighting horse quartet, Shanderaa and Sazando, the power level is considerably higher this generation. This means that Mence and Chomp are less likely to be broken, which means that they'll probably end up in OU - where they outclass Ono.

Can we please stop having this argument?

I'm agreeing with this; lets minimize the argument about Ono and let's move on to discuss the other dragon in further detail. I'm talking about the legends; Reshiram and Zekrom, No one except Jibaku has made a significant post about those two.

 

[AxelLow]

What with the insane power of stuff like the Genies, the Fighting horse quartet, Shanderaa and Sazando, the power level is considerably higher this generation. This means that Mence and Chomp are less likely to be broken, which means that they'll probably end up in OU - where they outclass Ono.

Can we please stop having this argument?

I didn't see it as a argument. I saw it more as a lively discussion is all xD.

Like I said before, your right in some points but it'll still be able to shine in OU. Other DD'ers will only wish for Ono's abilities more then likely.

 

[Ice-eyes]

@ AxelLow: Shelgon is an excellent Dragon Dancer, and while it looks outclassed by Mence it should still be OU because it has pure Dragon typing and other DDers like Tyranitar and Gyarados wish they had STAB Outrage.

I would like to see some calcs on Reshiram's Life Orb Fire Blast in Sunlight.

I really don't like Kyuremu; it seems to be pretty outclassed by the likes of Palkia (which can use the weather to its advantage, can bluff Scarf and is faster).

 

[Lucindril]

Ononokusu is at least a step forward from Rampardos last generation if we're thinking about glass cannons. If it can get a Dragon Dance in, it's pretty threatening late game. Basically, not to be underestimated.

I'm very hyped about Sazando, though. :D Can't wait to see how it does in practice, because it looks great on paper.

 

[deluge]

What with the insane power of stuff like the Genies, the Fighting horse quartet, Shanderaa and Sazando, the power level is considerably higher this generation. This means that Mence and Chomp are less likely to be broken, which means that they'll probably end up in OU - where they outclass Ono.

Can we please stop having this argument?

I'm not arguing just trying to get through with the obvious point: our information is incomplete and we're not in a position to make dogmatic statements.
What you said above was almost entirely handwavy and consists of very little fact and many probablys.
So singing over and over that Onokusu is outclassed is well...kind of stupid given what we don't know.

 

[AxelLow]

I personally wanted Kyumeru to be OU for the life of me when I save it.

Against Palkia, I agree that it might be somewhat inferior, but I would rather see it's movepool first before I continue more speculation on it. If anything I'd like to see it on the more special side with STAB Ice Beam, and STAB Draco Meteor. Maybe Specs it possibly?

 

[Aerrow]

I'm not arguing just trying to get through with the obvious point: our information is incomplete and we're not in a position to make dogmatic statements.

This; I'm totally agreeing with this statement. Also, like I mentioned before, lets move on now; I think we've discusses Ono enough for the time being and taking into consideration the small amount of information we have.

 

[Raptorg]

I really don't like Kyuremu; it seems to be pretty outclassed by the likes of Palkia (which can use the weather to its advantage, can bluff Scarf and is faster).

While true, Palkia is also at the mercy of the Rain.

In the sunlight, it loses its ability to KO Blissey without Outrage. Kyuremu, may not have this issue.
But I'd have to say this isn't the time for that discussion, because we really need all its moves before we can effectively say this, as Blissey is still capable of surviving unboosted attacks coming from a 130 attack stat.

I'm just pointing it out.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Sazando vs. Latias:
Sazando doesn't have a Pursuit weakness, which is huge, and resists Ghost and Dark which is cool. It also has a significantly higher Special Attack stat, and the option to go mixed.

Latias has much more special bulk and a resistance to Fighting. This lets it check stuff like Heatran, Infernape and Water-types (Swift Swimmers!) that Sazando can't. Latias also gets Recover, Trick and Calm Mind; we don't know whether Sazando gets Trick, but we know it doesn't get Calm Mind and is unlikely to have Recover. The key thing is that Latias also has much higher Speed, letting it outpace a HUGE amount of stuff that Sazando can't - the Genies, the legendary horses, Salamence, Garchomp, that 99 base Bug/Steel thing...

Guess it depends on team which one you use.

@ Raptorq: What is Kyuremu KOing Blissey with, then?

 

[Luf]

I'm most interested in Sazando. It resists both of Shanderaa's STAB attacks and is exceedingly bulky and powerful. He seems like an excellent mixed sweeper, revenge killer, and a tank all in one. I'm really hoping he learns Pursuit via breeding as well as Dragon Pulse.

 

[Aerrow]

Sazando vs. Latias:
Sazando doesn't have a Pursuit weakness, which is huge, and resists Ghost and Dark which is cool. It also has a significantly higher Special Attack stat, and the option to go mixed.

Latias has much more special bulk and a resistance to Fighting. This lets it check stuff like Heatran, Infernape and Water-types (Swift Swimmers!) that Sazando can't. Latias also gets Recover, Trick and Calm Mind; we don't know whether Sazando gets Trick, but we know it doesn't get Calm Mind and is unlikely to have Recover. The key thing is that Latias also has much higher Speed, letting it outpace a HUGE amount of stuff that Sazando can't - the Genies, the legendary horses, Salamence, Garchomp, that 99 base Bug/Steel thing...

Guess it depends on team which one you use.

Though Sazando does have its perks and will probably have a high usage in the future, I still think that Latias is better in the role of a special attacker; the most important factor would be her speed; it allows her to outspeed many Pokemon including the ones you mentioned while Sazando can not outpace any of them.

 

[AxelLow]

I agree with Orly, and Ice-Eyes about Sazando. That thing can, and will be, a monster. I would rather see it be mixed, and have the capabilities of busting stall open here, and there. It'll also be a great check to most of the new ghost types, and even stop others from really wanting to come in on it's mixed attacks.

If he does get pursuit, he can possibly trap alot of problems, and revenge kill various pokes.