Other EVO Process Workshop III

[ferron]

i think parasect might need to be removed from the NU list. it has been seeing more use since Gen. Empoleon designed the ubersect. i've seen, and used, it recently in everything from UU to ubers.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Of this list, only Delibird, Ditto, Spinda, and Unown strike me as an NU -> OU Massive Overhaul kind of move, since everything else has some kind of strange explorable niche. Good luck on Plusle/Minun though...

I think that Smeargle, Ditto, and Unown should be off-limits.

Just for the sake of argument:

Take Regigigas, for example. Now, we can't evolve Regigigas anyway, because he's a Legendary, but he already fills his niche, and there's nothing really that can be done to him except maybe give him Protect. That's not an evolution, that's a modification on an exact slate that Game Freak has already done everything for us as it is.

Smeargle, Ditto, and Unown are even more extreme examples of this. Smeargle was made to be a Pokemon who has every move, and no matter how much we modify him, what he is won't change at all! Ditto Transforms. That's it. Unown Levitates and uses Hidden Power. That's it. These three Pokemon are, really, unevolve-able, in that all they can be in relation to how they've been designed is modified.

Even Spinda can be a Pokemon who focuses on Confusion -- for example, with a custom Ability that causes Confusion not to go away when the Pokemon switches.

 

[Naxte]

I don't really think Smeargle should necessarily be off-limits. It makes for an excellent Baton Passer. It's problem is though, 75 speed really isn't enough to do such a job effectively in OU, and the rest of its stats suck, resulting in it either having to run Choice Scarf, and not being able to pass anything, or run an item like Focus Sash, and still get KO'd before it can pass, due to being outsped and easily KO'd by a number of OU Pokemon. So, just increase its speed to say at least 100, and make it a bit more bulky, and you've got a great Baton Passer.

Yeah, we won't be making Smeargle do anything new or giving it a new role, but I don't even see how that's an issue. The point of EVO should be to expand on the already existing niches of a Pokemon and make them better able to perform in those niches, and not to force them into some new niche or change what they are.

Smeargle already does have such a niche, which can be expanded on and improved to make it more viable in standard, and isn't legendary, fully-evolved, OU, or one-move-kind of thing like Ditto and Unown, so I don't believe it should be off-limits. The thing with Unown is, no matter what we do to it, it will still suck due to only having Hidden Power. Ditto's in a similar boat (although giving it a much better HP stat and perhaps a decent speed stat could make it interesting). Smeargle though does have a role, which can easily be improved, so I don't really see the reason to strike it off the list.

 

[ferron]

Unown Levitates and uses Hidden Power. That's it.

but its so gimmicky that its hard not to love. though i can't imagine anyone ever using it.

watch, one day GF will give it an incredible evo that none will see coming.

 

[petrie911]

I don't think we should wholly discount the idea of NU to OU. Roserade, Ambipom, and Mamoswine weren't even that much of an overhaul. Just got some nice stat boosts, and, in Ambipom's case, a neat new ability. We shouldn't make it the focus of the project by any means, but we shouldn't automatically discount NU Pokemon from the running.

Of course, there is no NU right now, so that may be a moot point.

but its so gimmicky that its hard not to love. though i can't imagine anyone ever using it.

watch, one day GF will give it an incredible evo that none will see coming.

It will be called "Nown", have 255 base in every stat, and still only learn Hidden Power.

 

[Deck Knight]

So anyway, back on topic:

I take it there is a general assent that Stone Evolutions and Item Evolutions are not expressly forbidden from consideration, as long as they are BL or lower.

Thats all I need to know, since there appears to be no further comment on process.

As soon as the Movepool for CAP7 starts I will PM Doug requesting an Evo kickoff with Concept and TL Nominations.

 

[ferron]

So anyway, back on topic:

I take it there is a general assent that Stone Evolutions and Item Evolutions are not expressly forbidden from consideration, as long as they are BL or lower.

odd wording DK. the way you said it would also allow FOR US to do stone and item evos and it was said a while back that we shouldn't do stone, item, friendship, or move evos.
if you mean it as you did in your previous example with sunflora, then i see no problem giving an evo to a poke that already has had one of these evos, but i don't think we should give one ourselves.

 

[tennisace]

I said that a while back, and tbqh it doesn't really matter. As a general rule we only shouldn't allow 3rd stage evos or legendaries in accordance to the BST rule of thumb.

 

[cyberzero]

Deck Knight, you're right saying that a lot of those have niches that can be explored, and if it is valid, and only if it is valid, the Pokemon should be suggested alongside the concept submission. I believe that should be the only exception for NU > OU evolutions, and it MUST have good reasoning. I agree with no stone evolutions, etc.

Let's get this show on the road, nice job to everyone who helped develop the process, especially Deck Knight. Great job everyone!

 

[ferron]

i would love to start as soon as possible, but can we really start before the BL and UU have been defined yet? this mean we quite possibly may have to wait until when after we into CaP8 depending on how long it takes to finish CaP7 and if the UU testing is done in time.

 

[Deck Knight]

odd wording DK. the way you said it would also allow FOR US to do stone and item evos and it was said a while back that we shouldn't do stone, item, friendship, or move evos.
if you mean it as you did in your previous example with sunflora, then i see no problem giving an evo to a poke that already has had one of these evos, but i don't think we should give one ourselves.

I mean if a pokemon evolved from a Stone or an Item, it is elligible as long as it is not OU or a 3rd stage pokemon.

Like I said, I consider all EVOs to be done under the arbitrary "Evolves by EVO Badge" and thus no pokemon that doesn't expressly violate "OU" or "BST over 540" or "already 3rd stage" should be eligible for consideration.

 

[tennisace]

i would love to start as soon as possible, but can we really start before the BL and UU have been defined yet? this mean we quite possibly may have to wait until when after we into CaP8 depending on how long it takes to finish CaP7 and if the UU testing is done in time.

What's the problem with evolving a BL again?

 

[ferron]

why give a boost to something that barely needs it, when something that can truly use it is available?

 

[cyberzero]

why give a boost to something that barely needs it, when something that can truly use it is available?

Why not give it a boost then? If it needs a slight push in order to perform well in OU, why not give it that? Houndoom, for example, could be a very viable alternative to Heatran in OU, but it can't because it doesn't have that boost. If we give it that boost with all the right reasoning, the CAP OU metagame could learn a lot. On the other hand, evolving something lower on the usage ladder would make just as much sense if it has a role that fits with the concept and wouldn't require too much of a massive overhaul.

 

[Naxte]

why give a boost to something that barely needs it, when something that can truly use it is available?

Both could obviously use it, otherwise they'd be OU. It's irrelevant that UU pokes "need an evolution more" than BL Pokes (and no Pokemon even needs an evolution anyway; EVO is about creating an evolution that will benefit the meta-game and learning more about it through the process, not giving evolutions to Pokemon that "need it most").

What we should be concerned with is what niche each Pokemon falls into and whether or not it would be relevant and a good idea to expand upon that Pokemon's ability to fill that niche in the current meta-game. A UU Poke might need more work to be usable in OU, but it could turn out that evolving a BL Poke would have a greater beneficial impact on the meta-game and thus be a more logical choice to evolve, even though it doesn't need as much work (and of course, the reverse can also be true). Thus, we shouldn't concern ourselfs with that at all, and be able to leave any Pokemon up for evolution, so long as it's not already OU, not a legendary, not a branched-evolution Poke like Evee, and not an odd case like Unown, since a Pokemon's possible effect on the meta-game is what's truly important, and not how much a Pokemon "needs" an evolution.

 

[hydrolphin]

i would love to start as soon as possible, but can we really start before the BL and UU have been defined yet? this mean we quite possibly may have to wait until when after we into CaP8 depending on how long it takes to finish CaP7 and if the UU testing is done in time.

That doesn't matter to this at all, we can evolve a BL

Heck even some OU's like Donphan and Tentacruel could use EVOs.

 

[tennisace]

If they're OU they're doing something right with their niche.

 

[hydrolphin]

If they're OU they're doing something right with their niche.

Donphan isn't OU because its doing something right. Its OU because of noobs using it for Rapid Spin. It needs an EVO more than Spiritomb or Milotic, both of which are UU.

Dusclops, Magneton, Rhydon, and Porygon2 were OU during R/S/E and got EVOs. I'm saying that limiting ourselves to much wouldn't be a good idea.

 

[Deck Knight]

Donphan isn't OU because its doing something right. Its OU because of noobs using it for Rapid Spin. It needs an EVO more than Spiritomb or Milotic, both of which are UU.

Dusclops, Magneton, Rhydon, and Porygon2 were OU during R/S/E and got EVOs. I'm saying that limiting ourselves to much wouldn't be a good idea.

We aren't Nintendo nor are we fit to judge whether Donphan's popularity is due solely to "n00bs." That Stark Topic on "OU's overrated mons" struck me as little more than a snotty bitchfest. Are n00bs also the cause of Heatran omnipresence? There seem to be enough n00bs to perpetuate Donphan's OU status, but not enough of them to secure Gallade, who is now up for BL discussion fresh off the January OU update that declared him not OU based on Usage.

Nintendo has free reign to evolve whoever they want, they control the canon. Furthermore, there was a quantum leap of differences between ADV OU and DP OU, not least of which being the Physical/Special Split and Tyranitar's auto +1 SD from Sandstream.

Case in point: If Donphan loses enough popularity by April to fall into UU, it will be eligible for EVO.

 

[Madd Cribbage]

I agree with Deck Knight on this one. Im sorry hydrophin, but your arguement is not very good for the case of evolving OUs. I see no problem in BLs or UUs, but please no split EVOs we have enough already and if we do those I believe fanboyism will take over the project.

Other than that all I have to say is...Camerupt!!!

 

[ferron]

Other than that all I have to say is...Camerupt!!!

...i'm trying to think of a way to respond to this state that is not insulting or demeaning...

look, please don't bring up the farfetch'd/camerupt fiasco of the past. if one of them happens to win the nomination, then so be it. just don't bandwagon before the event actually starts.

also hydrolphin, if the smogon community was so n00b-ish then why don't we see more pokes in OU that look good on paper but are horrible in the metagame (ex. pikachu, ursaring, umbreon, floatzel, etc.).

 

[tennisace]

Donphan isn't OU because its doing something right. Its OU because of noobs using it for Rapid Spin. It needs an EVO more than Spiritomb or Milotic, both of which are UU.

Dusclops, Magneton, Rhydon, and Porygon2 were OU during R/S/E and got EVOs. I'm saying that limiting ourselves to much wouldn't be a good idea.

Ninjask's usage is almost solely "noobs". Would you consider evolving that? Donphan appeals to a group of people who want a rapid spinner who can attack decently from the physical side. Donphan is OU. Hence, it does its job well enough so that it isn't UU/BL. OU is the standard we want to bring Pokemon up to, so how can we justify evolving Pokemon from the "lower end" without saying "Starmie deserves an evo too since it can fill the niche of bulky water rapid spinner/special attacker".

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

...but please no split EVOs we have enough already and if we do those I believe fanboyism will take over the project.

Other than that all I have to say is...Camerupt!!!

It seems that it's too late to worry about that.

 

[Deck Knight]

I am currently reformatting CAP to be the OP. This is what I have so far:

Concept Submissions

(To be posted in the OP)

This is where we discuss the general goal of the next Evolve-a-Pokemon project -- EVO X. The Concept will be a guiding force throughout the ensuing project, to ensure the the final result is a cohesive competitive pokemon. Any discussions, suggestions, or submissions in later topics, that do not support the spirit of the Concept, will be moderated by the Topic Leader.

Concepts must be presented as high-level descriptions of a general idea. They cannot be detailed pokemon designs. Since we have polls to determine each aspect of the pokemon, we cannot allow any specific features of the pokemon to be determined by the details of the Concept.

The following rules must be followed when submitting a Concept:

* One submission per person. You may edit your Concept, but you may not change the fundamental premise after it has been posted. If editing your concept, please edit the original post instead of posting a new revision. Do not bump your Concept after you have posted it. If people do not comment on it, so be it.
* Do not duplicate or closely-resemble Concepts already posted by others. It is your responsibility to read through all previous submissions in this thread to ensure you are complying with this rule. Ignorance or laziness is not an excuse.
* Specific Pokemon types or type combos cannot be included or excluded in a Concept. Nor can other characteristics of the Concept specifically result in in the inclusion or exclusion of Types. For example, the following phrases would be illegal:

"This is a Dragon pokemon with..."
"The pokemon should be immune to Ghost attacks..."
"The pokemon should have at least 7 resistances..."
"The pokemon should get STAB on Thunderbolt.."

* Specific Abilities are not allowed. This applies to existing abilities and new abilities. Do not attempt to circumvent this rule by mentioning specific battle effects that can only be achieved by the implementation of an ability. For example, the following phrases would be illegal:

"This pokemon should have a defensive ability like Intimidate or Marvel Scale..."
"This pokemon has an ability that steals the opponent's held item..."
"When this pokemon is switched in, all weather conditions are nullified..."

* Movepools or lists of moves are not allowed. A specific move can be mentioned if it is the basis for the entire concept. For example, the Concept "Rapid Spinner" would obviously mention the move Rapid Spin.
* Specific stat bias, base stats, or base stat ratings are not allowed. It is acceptable to use descriptive phrases like "fast", "bulky", "strong attacker", etc -- since there are a variety of ways a pokemon can fit those descriptions without specifically requiring certain stats. But, do not use overly-specific descriptions that would narrowly constrain the pokemon's base stat spread.
* Indications of Physical/Special bias are discouraged, but acceptable if it is essential to the Concept.
* Do not refer to any part of the pokemon's artistic design. For example, the following phrases would be illegal:

"This is a bright blue pokemon..."
"The pokemon looks like a..."
"The pokemon uses its long tail to..."

* A Concept Submission consists of a Name, Description, and a sample of eligible applicable pokemon.. Please use the following format for posting Concepts:

Concept: <Concept name>
Description: A description of the concept, with all the normal
regulations placed on CAP Concepts.

Sample:<Sample of 2-5 applicable pokemon and brief reasoning>.

* You may include a separate explanation of your Concept in your submission post, but it is not part of the official Concept submission. This explanation may make suggestions, even specific suggestions, regarding the possible implementation of the Concept. This explanation should help facilitate discussion of the Concept -- but the explanation is NOT part of the Concept and will be omitted from the polls and any future use of the Concept. Since your explanation is non-binding, regarding future polls and threads, it will not be evaluated for purposes of determining if your concept is legal or illegal.
* Don't get too clever with the name. If the essence of the concept is not intuitively obvious in the name, then you are hurting your chances of people understanding it. If the essence of your concept cannot be expressed in a few words, then you need to seriously re-evaluate your concept.
* Concept descriptions should be short. A sentence or two is normal. Long descriptions are invariably too specific or too convoluted. Keep it short. Do NOT include your explanation of the concept in the Description.
* Sample pokemon must be eligible for EVO. The Pokemon must fit all 4 of these qualifications: Not OU, BST under 540, not part of a split evolution (Eons, Hitmons, etc.) and not Stage 3. While not explicitly banned, particularly difficult pokemon to work with like Castform, Unown, Smeargle, and Ditto are frowned upon. A comprehensive listing of eligible pokemon is provided at the end of this post.

It is the submitter's responsibility to figure out how to make a legal submission within the rules listed above. Do not complain about the difficulty of making a submission in this thread. There are many, many legal concepts that can be presented within the rules. Here are few examples of good and bad Concepts from previous [CAP] projects:

Good Concepts from Past Projects
"Pure Utility Pokemon"
"Anti-Ghost Rapid Spinner"
"True Garchomp Counter"
"Great Lead Pokemon"
"Ultimate Weather Abuser"
"Status Counter"

Bad Concepts from Past Projects
"Ice-Resisting Dragon"
"Super Luck User"
"STAB Explosion Glass Cannon"
"Auto-Stealth Rock Remover"
"A Pokemon with Special Intimidate"
"Pyrokinetic Pokemon (Fire/Psychic)"
"Special Guts"
"Typing Means Nothing"

Here's a sample of a legal Concept post. This is not an actual submission. I'm just using it to illustrate the Name, Description, Explanation, and Sample :

Concept: "Weather My Way"
Description: A pokemon with enough bulk or speed to change the weather mid-battle.

Permanent Sandstorm and Hail dominate the metagame because nothing seems to be able to change the weather effectively. They either take residual damage or can't afford the turn setting the weather up. Properly executed, this pokemon will be able to "weather any storm" and change the weather to one more advantageous to your team.

Sample:
Golduck: Cloud Nine makes it immune to weather effects, currently sets up Rain or Hail.
Lickilicky: Already fairly bulky, can set up Sunny Day or Rain Dance.
Sandslash: Has increased evade in Sandstorm in addition to good innate defense. Can currently set up Sunny Day or Sandstorm.
Gastrodon: Immune to Sandstorm, has decent defenses and Recover, currently sets up Hail, Rain Dance, and Sandstorm.
Masquerain: With both Hydro Pump and Solarbeam, it could utilize either of Sunny Day or Rain Dance, and open up other possibilities regarding type.

Please try to remember that we are simply pointing the project in a general direction, we are not trying to decide anything right now. We have several weeks of polls ahead of us where EVERYTHING about this evolution will be dissected, discussed, voted, and decided. The Concept is a very basic guide for the creation process. It is hard to provide solid concept descriptions without basically designing the entire pokemon right off the bat. Submissions should be written and chosen very carefully, to avoid these problems.

Comprehensive List of eligible pokemon (as of January 2009):

Abomasnow
Ambipom
Arbok
Ariados
Armaldo
Banette
Bastiodon
Bibarel
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Castform
Chatot
Cherrim
Chimecho
Claydol
Cloyster
Corsola
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dodrio
Drapion
Drifblim
Dunsparse
Electrode
Exeggutor
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Floatzel
Furret
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Golduck
Granbull
Grumpig
Hariyama
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Hypno
Illumise
Jynx
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kecleon
Kingler
Kricketune
Lanturn
Lapras
Ledian
Lickilicky
Linoone
Lopunny
Lumineon
Lunatone
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Manectric
Mantine
Marowak
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Miltank
Mismagius
Mr. Mime
Muk
Ninetales
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Persian
Phione
Pinsir
Plusle
Primeape
Probopass
Purugly
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Rampardos
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Sableye
Sandlsash
Seaking
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shuckle
Skuntank
Smeargle
Solrock
Spinda
Spiritomb
Stantler
Steelix
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swallot
Swellow
Tangrowth
Tauros
Toxicroak
Tropius
Unown
Ursaring
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Volbeat
Wailord
Weezing
Whiscash
Xatu
Zangoose

 

[hydrolphin]

I like the premise DK, but There is one part I am iffy on... And no I am not talking about the OU part...

Sample pokemon must be eligible for EVO. The Pokemon must fit all 3 of these qualifications: Not OU, BST under 540, and not Stage 3 (Stage 3 includes fossils like Omastar and Bastiodon). While not explicitly banned, particularly difficult pokemon to work with like Castform, Unown, and Ditto are frowned upon.

We should come up with an NU ban list... Stuff that would gain fanboy momentem with the arguement, "It really deserves an EVO"

Some fanboys might not bother to read this part, so we will still get a load of Farfetch'ds and Dittos. I can nearly guarentee that someone will post Something like this:

Transform Abuser
Description: A pokemon that can use Tranform good

Transform is really cool, but no one can learn it but sucky stuff and Ubers. We should make a good transformer, cause it would be really cool.

Ditto: Ditto can learn Transform, but it sucks. It needs an Evo
Other: It would be cool.
Other: It would be cool.
Other: It would be cool.
Other: It would be cool.

We need to specifically Ban stuff to keep fanboys from using it.

Here is a preliminary Banned List:
Ditto
Unown
Farfetch'd
Luvdisc
Pachirisu

I chose that stuff, as they have no real niche, terrible stats, and can only get the "It deserves it" arguement.

This needs to be in effect for at least the first few EVOs, to keep them from imploding from the concentration of Fanboys.