Other EVO Process Workshop III

[tennisace]

Imo that's a horrible idea. The TL can just weed the bad submissions out, rather than arbitrarily banning things. If we were to ban ANYTHING, I would ban Farfetch'd, Houndoom, and Camerupt. Now, don't say "but they didn't do anything". In reality, they did. The project didn't get past the Pokemon selection part. Remove the Pokemon selected, and start again, at least for the first one.

 

[Deck Knight]

Stage 2 of the process after concept is designed to weed out stupid crap.

If someone was promoting some kind of Swift Swim abuser, the argument would have to be VERY compelling for why we should use Luvdisc over say, Floatzel, Seaking, Lumineon, or Relicanth. (Oh yeah, and fanboy fight between Luvdisc and Seaking? Can I get a *&% YEAH! lol)

Stage 1 would weed out that ridiculous Ditto Submission. It's probably even stupid enough to earn an infraction.

I've no interest in a specific ban list. Farfetch'd can be molded into a balanced BPer, Pachirisu has Super Fang, one of the most awesome moves in the game, and umm... Luvdisc is... uh. Yeah, I got nothing for the pokemon whose sole purpose is providing Heart Scales. But I don't support ban lists outside of the 3 specific guidelines.

 

[hydrolphin]

Imo that's a horrible idea. The TL can just weed the bad submissions out, rather than arbitrarily banning things. If we were to ban ANYTHING, I would ban Farfetch'd, Houndoom, and Camerupt. Now, don't say "but they didn't do anything". In reality, they did. The project didn't get past the Pokemon selection part. Remove the Pokemon selected, and start again, at least for the first one.

That would be fine as well, as long as Unown is banned as well (seriously it has NO niche).

Lol I should stay away from here now. Before everyone loved my ideas. Now, everything gets shot down by the DK-Tennis patrol.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

Farfetch'd, Houndoom, and Camerupt should not be banned because if guided correctly, they can all fill in niches in the Metagame.

 

[cyberzero]

Imo that's a horrible idea. The TL can just weed the bad submissions out, rather than arbitrarily banning things. If we were to ban ANYTHING, I would ban Farfetch'd, Houndoom, and Camerupt. Now, don't say "but they didn't do anything". In reality, they did. The project didn't get past the Pokemon selection part. Remove the Pokemon selected, and start again, at least for the first one.

Actually tennis, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Hydrolphin has great points, but I don't think they should be outright banned. If the poster actually has valid points as to that Pokemon being used for the EVO, why not let it in? That's what Stage 2 is for.

And Hydrolphin, Unown has no niche, but banning it would be slightly useless because if no one can back up why they want Unown evolved, it won't be picked, right? But let's say someone hits a stroke of genius and DOES come up with a great reason, then that would be great.

 

[ferron]

That would be fine as well, as long as Unown is banned as well (seriously it has NO niche).

Lol I should stay away from here now. Before everyone loved my ideas. Now, everything gets shot down by the DK-Tennis patrol.

its not a bad idea to remove certain pokes from a specific concept, but its pre-banning that people don't like the idea of. basically it was just one step too far.

 

[hydrolphin]

We've banned 3rd stages, Fossils, Stone Evos, OUs, and Arcanine yet no one cares.

But people are quick to protect Farfetch'd and Unown, who have no niche.

If EVO is truely a competetive process, stuff that would get in the way should be banned, and stuff that would help shouldn't be banned.

Now I'm not saying that 3rd stages should be allowed, but stuff like Omastar, Exxegutor, and (I know I'm gonna be grilled for this) Donphan would be more beneficial to the project than Farfetch'd and Unown.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

Farfetch'd can be a Critical Hit Abuser, or a new flying type hybrid, and is quite open BST-wise.

 

[ferron]

arcanine hasn't been banned, check x-acts thread. we ban 3rd stages because there there has never been a fourth stage. OUs don't need a boost. stone evos make almost no sense to many of us (when it comes to how they are decided), so how are supposed to understand it. etc.

as for the fossils, that i don't understand myself and would like an explanation. can someone tell me?

theres a reasoning behind all of it, maybe not obvious, but it is there.

 

[Naxte]

as for the fossils, that i don't understand myself and would like an explanation. can someone tell me?

Pretty much, from how I understand it, the actual fossils that the Pokemon are revived from, such as the Dome, Helix, Root, ect. Fossils, are being considered as actual stages in their evolutionary lines, just like they are in the card games, which would bump practically all of them except Aero (which is already OU) up to thee stages. However, in the card games, the fossils actually have HP and are actually playable, while in the games, they're just items and can't do anything, not even sit there like they can in the card game, nor can they even sit in your party like eggs can in game. So, I'd personally have no problem letting fossil Pokemon like Cradily, Kabutops, and Armaldo evolving, since in the games the fossils don't seem to be actual stages and a few of them, could really make for interesting evo projects.

 

[tennisace]

Arcanine is banned due to the BST.

Re: random bannings-

Ban the ones causing problems or ban none of them. Its really pointless to say "these are horrible choices" because if someone comes up with an amazing reason to evolve say Unown, good luck to them. If they don't come up with good reasons the TL won't move them on. It's that simple.

Edit: as for the fossils- "Why not".

 

[hydrolphin]

arcanine hasn't been banned, check x-acts thread. we ban 3rd stages because there there has never been a fourth stage. OUs don't need a boost. stone evos make almost no sense to many of us (when it comes to how they are decided), so how are supposed to understand it. etc.

as for the fossils, that i don't understand myself and would like an explanation. can someone tell me?

theres a reasoning behind all of it, maybe not obvious, but it is there.

Thats not the point. The point is that this is a Competetive Project. We are limiting ourselves competetivly, but people are protecting stuff they don't want to win.

 

[Deck Knight]

We've banned 3rd stages, Fossils, Stone Evos, OUs, and Arcanine yet no one cares.

But people are quick to protect Farfetch'd and Unown, who have no niche.

If EVO is truely a competetive process, stuff that would get in the way should be banned, and stuff that would help shouldn't be banned.

Now I'm not saying that 3rd stages should be allowed, but stuff like Omastar, Exxegutor, and (I know I'm gonna be grilled for this) Donphan would be more beneficial to the project than Farfetch'd and Unown.

I don't see a compelling reason to not consider the fossils Stage 3. They're 3 Stages in the TCG and you have to revive them from fossils, they can't be found in the wild.

EDIT: However, since there seems to be enough support for allowing them (dear lord here comes Kabutops >_>), I'll allow it. Just remember that Omastar and especially Kabutops are a menace in Rain. Heaven help us if someone comes up with Ultimate Rain Abuser and wins.

My whole question earlier revolved around allowing Stone or Trade Evolution pokemon to be evolved through EVO. People seemed to believe it reasonable, so really, the only bans there are Starmie(OU) and Arcanine (Over 540 BST).

I did, however, forget split evolutions. I will add it in.

Farfetch'd has a niche: It has Swords Dance, Agility, and Baton Pass. Additionally, it has fairly balanced stats and a fair few special attacks. The only thing really holding it back is its utterly terrible Base Stats. Normal/Flying also doesn't have Ledian and Scyther's endless list of common weaknesses or massive SR weak (25% is still bad, but 50% is deplorable, especially for a passer, see: Ninjask). In short, it is possible to make a compelling argument for a legitimate Farfetch'd evolution in the context of a Baton Passer. If someone wants to promote a Baton Passing concept and it adheres to the guidelines, were I the TL I would not toss it out.

Unown has no niche. At all. It's at best a 3rd movie promotional tool and nifty sidequest in GSC.

 

[ferron]

in x-act's thread it says that its the new stats are capped at 540 if the poke has fewer than 540, but if it has above 540 then the cap becomes 555.

@hydrolphin- think about the ban on OU for a second. can you name a single poke in OU that wouldn't over-centralize if given a stat boost and an improved movepool? we want a competitive metagame, not a skewed one.

@tennis- why not ban them, or why not allow them?

 

[Naxte]

My whole question earlier revolved around allowing Stone or Trade Evolution pokemon to be evolved through EVO. People seemed to believe it reasonable, so really, the only bans there are Starmie(OU) and Arcanine (Over 540 BST).

Exegggutor (Leaf Stone, UU, 520 BST) and Sunflora (Sun Stone, UU, 425 BST) also get crossed off with that rule, from what I can think off.

 

[Deck Knight]

Exegggutor (Leaf Stone, UU, 520 BST) and Sunflora (Sun Stone, UU, 425 BST) also get crossed off with that rule, from what I can think off.

Which is why I asked before deciding to kick EVO off, since it included a fairly decent number of pokemon. As of now, they are eligible. The confusion probably came from the idea we were somehow "double stoning" them as an evolution method.

As I said, my assumption is that any pokemon evolved through EVO has Evolution Method: EVO Badge. So I don't care if they got to their pre-EVO forms via Stone, Link Cable, or whatever.

Note: If you have a problem potentially evolving the likes of Exeggutor, Cloyster, Ninetales, and Sunflora, speak now or forever hold your peace.

 

[ferron]

i say let them go forth, if there's a concept they fit then i see no reason not to let then get the chance.

 

[Deck Knight]

Alright then, so I'll append in code to the OP: Comprehensive List of eligible pokemon (as of January 2009).

Abomasnow
Ambipom
Arbok
Ariados
Armaldo
Banette
Bastiodon
Bibarel
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Castform
Chatot
Cherrim
Chimecho
Claydol
Cloyster
Corsola
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dodrio
Drapion
Drifblim
Dunsparse
Electrode
Exeggutor
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Floatzel
Furret
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Golduck
Granbull
Grumpig
Hariyama
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Hypno
Illumise
Jynx
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kecleon
Kingler
Kricketune
Lanturn
Lapras
Ledian
Lickilicky
Linoone
Lopunny
Lumineon
Lunatone
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Manectric
Mantine
Marowak
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Miltank
Mismagius
Mr. Mime
Muk
Ninetales
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Persian
Phione
Pinsir
Plusle
Primeape
Probopass
Purugly
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Rampardos
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Sableye
Sandlsash
Seaking
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shuckle
Skuntank
Smeargle
Solrock
Spinda
Spiritomb
Stantler
Steelix
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swallot
Swellow
Tangrowth
Tauros
Toxicroak
Tropius
Unown
Ursaring
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Volbeat
Wailord
Weezing
Whiscash
Xatu
Zangoose

 

[hydrolphin]

@hydrolphin- think about the ban on OU for a second. can you name a single poke in OU that wouldn't over-centralize if given a stat boost and an improved movepool? we want a competitive metagame, not a skewed one.

Donphan-Current Base Stats: 90/120/120/60/60/50
Typing Ground/Ability: Sturdy
Current Movepool of Intrest:
EQ
Rapid Spin
Ice Shard
Stone Edge
Stealth Rock
Knock Off
Roar
All 3 Elemental Fangs
Body Slam

Donphan is one of the four OU rapid spinners, and also the one with the most attack. This is good, except its problem is it is hit by TS. Since it is supposed have a bulky sweeper kind of role after RSing, it fails if they set up TS.

A POSIBLE Donphan Evo-New Base Stats: 110/125/125/62/80/40
Typing:Ground/Dark/Ability:Sturdy
New Movepool of Intrest:
EQ
Rapid Spin
Ice Shard
Stone Edge
Stealth Rock
Knock Off
Roar
All 3 Elemental Fangs
Body Slam
Crunch
Sucker Punch
Pursuit
Shadow Sneak

This pokemon is now a viable Rapid Spinner. The Stat upgrades are small, making sort of a blend between Mamo and Pert. It is slow, obviouslt physical, and can take hits better from the special side. The STAB Crunch, Sucker Punch, and Pursuit keep Ghosts away, while Shadow Sneak can be used for Rev. Dark also keeps it from getting to broken, with the new weaknesses to Fighting and Bug, both more common on the CAP server. While the TS problem isn't solved, this pokemon is much more of a threat than before. It could run a Defensive Set (EQ/Dark Move/RS/other support) an Offensive Set (EQ/Dark Move/Stone Edge/Ice Shard) or a hybrid.

Tentacruel-Current Base Stats:80/70/65/80/120/100
Typing:Water/Poison/Ability:Liquid Ooze/Clear Body
Current Movepool of Intrest:
Surf
Toxic Spikes
Rapin Spin
Knock Off
Ice Beam
Swords Dance
Giga Drain
Haze
Mirror Coat

Tentacruel's typing keep it from walling, so it must look to its support movepool. It has a similar movepool to Donphan: RS, form of Spikes, Knock Off, STABs... but it is easilt killed by the ever so common EQ and (in CAP) Zen Headbutt.

A POSSIBLE Tnetacruel Evo-New Base Stats:100/75/90/85/140/90
Typing:Water/Poison/Ability:Liquid Ooze/Clear Body
New Movepool of Intrest:
Surf
Toxic Spikes
Rapin Spin
Knock Off
Ice Beam
Swords Dance
Giga Drain
Haze
Mirror Coat
Recover
Charge Beam
Fake Out
Switcheroo

Now, while still having the weakness, Tentacruel can take hits from the physcal side, while having great SpD. But the big upgrade is recover. This gives it survivability, allowing it to Toxistall. Charge Beam gives it an option over Giga Drain to hit grasses, and boost its stats. Fake Out, while not being a great option, could be useful on leads trying to set up their TS. Switcheroo makes sure it isn't walled by those Trickers as he can now switch out and trick it back on to someone else.

If anyone thinks ether of these two are broken, they probably cant stand Swampert or Blissey.

EDIT: Also DK, its 2009 not 2008

 

[Darkflagrance]

The reason why the above example works is that not all OU's are so because of their stats.

Take a look at the three requirements for Uber that I believe Doug suggested: Offensive, Defensive, and Utility. Some OU's have really good movepools and typings and decent enough stats to fulfill the utility aspect of OU. Thus, increasing their stats by evolution or their movepools by a marginal amount does not break them.

On the other hand, I would still argue against the above by repeating that we want to prioritize pokemon that have been far more outclassed than those in OU.

 

[hydrolphin]

The reason why the above example works is that not all OU's are so because of their stats.

Exactly... we don't need to break them... those are similar to what was done with Magnezone and Rhyperior, both are lower calss OUs still

Take a look at the three requirements for Uber that I believe Doug suggested: Offensive, Defensive, and Utility. Some OU's have really good movepools and typings and decent enough stats to fulfill the utility aspect of OU. Thus, increasing their stats by evolution or their movepools by a marginal amount does not break them.

Donphan got big help in his two crippling Stats-20 point boost in SpD and HP

Tentacruel got Huge boosts in all three defensive Stats...

I wouldn't call these marginal. Just because a pokemon is OU doesn't mean there is no room for improvement

On the other hand, I would still argue against the above by repeating that we want to prioritize pokemon that have been far more outclassed than those in OU.

Again must I reiderate that this is a competive project. We are not looking for what "needs" to be OU or is "most deserving." It is what will bring the most to the metagame. Farfetch'd is outclassed by Staraptor, why evolve it? If we try and make a better Staraptor, then it will be outclassed. The little that Farfetch'd brings to the table is either
A: Already done by something in OU
or
B: Offered by something better that we could potentially evolve, and avoid all the fanboys.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Nonetheless, the fundamental issue remains how we can make the biggest possible difference by Evo. If we evolve a pokemon that is already OU, I think of it this way: we gain something stronger that now outclasses something that was just a bit weaker.

A greater change to the metagame is to evolve something completely new. Either way, I would say that more attention to scouting the potentialities of a pokemon is required.


P.S.
There are still net stat gains in Donphan's stats, which technically fits the definition of marginal improvement (although I intensely detest that argument and regret using it).

 

[Deck Knight]

Infraction-worthy crap

No. I thought we rid ourselves of the plague of Warlax.

This is not the place to theorize new evolutions, and I'm more disappointed that you were the one who did it and not some 13 postcount n00b.

If it's in OU, no matter how slimly, it does not need our project to make it OU. End of Story. When OU is reassessed in April, IF Donphan and Tentacruel fall to UU they will be eligible. Until then, they are not.

 

[hydrolphin]

Nonetheless, the fundamental issue remains how we can make the biggest possible difference by Evo. If we evolve a pokemon that is already OU, I think of it this way: we gain something stronger that now outclasses something that was just a bit weaker.

A greater change to the metagame is to evolve something completely new. Either way, I would say that more attention to scouting the potentialities of a pokemon is required.


P.S.
There are still net stat gains in Donphan's stats, which technically fits the definition of marginal improvement (although I intensely detest that argument and regret using it).

Having that Donphan or Tentacruel Evo change the metagame as much as a Farfetch'd Evo. The point of Evo is to get something that does its job well. I want options open to whatever we need for a sucessful EVO... not to what will be bad for it.

Edit:

This is not the place to theorize new evolutions, and I'm more disappointed that you were the one who did it and not some 13 postcount n00b.

I did it to prove a point... OU's can be EVOed without being broken. I seriously don't think either of those would be worthwhile doing. But if someone comes up with a briliant idea about how to Evolve them, then it should be allowed.

 

[ferron]

hydrolphin, you are missing the point. EVO is supposed to help us understand the LINE between what makes a poke OU and UU. thus, making a OU better makes little sense.