Other EVO Process Workshop III

[Plus]

EVO has the same mission statement as CaP: To learn about the metagame by creating new concepts. By doing EVO you further define an existing concept thus making it easier to achieve this goal. Nowhere does it say that EVO is supposed to help us understand tiers. Suspect Testing is where you should go if you want to understand tiers.

 

[LoftyTheMetroid]

It seems fairly illogical to me that a decision would be made to ban certain OU pokemon with the logic still being that a concept comes before its respective pokemon, as has already been determined. If an OU pokemon would best fit a concept, then that's what should logically be done.

And, as was mentioned:

EVO has the same mission statement as CaP: To learn about the metagame by creating new concepts.

There is no intrinsic connection between a pokemon's tier level and what it's potential evolution could allow us to learn about the metagame. I'm not saying that I like that this is the direction of EVO, but it's the one that was decided. If you don't like it, well... I already had my say in that.

(And from my own personal point of view, from a game design perspective, I don't see a problem with OU evolutions. But, since this is CAP, keeping reasoning competitive is probably best...)

 

[Deck Knight]

It seems fairly illogical to me that a decision would be made to ban certain OU pokemon with the logic still being that a concept comes before its respective pokemon, as has already been determined. If an OU pokemon would best fit a concept, then that's what should logically be done.

And, as was mentioned:



There is no intrinsic connection between a pokemon's tier level and what it's potential evolution could allow us to learn about the metagame. I'm not saying that I like that this is the direction of EVO, but it's the one that was decided. If you don't like it, well... I already had my say in that.

(And from my own personal point of view, from a game design perspective, I don't see a problem with OU evolutions. But, since this is CAP, keeping reasoning competitive is probably best...)

CAP and EVO's Mission is to create new OU Pokemon. If a Pokemon is already in OU, then a project is unnecessary. I don't care if it's a "cusper" like Donphan or something firmly established (but not a sweeper or wall) like Tentacruel.

As I said before: IF Donphan or Tentacruel fall to UU in the next OU assessment in April, they will be eligible for EVO. Until then, they are OU. Period. End of story. If we're opening this up to OU pokemon we might as well make our first project Skarmory, since it no longer does the job it did in GSC and ADV.

 

[hydrolphin]

As I said before: IF Donphan or Tentacruel fall to UU in the next OU assessment in April, they will be eligible for EVO. Until then, they are OU. Period. End of story. If we're opening this up to OU pokemon we might as well make our first project Skarmory, since it no longer does the job it did in GSC and ADV.

But what if something we evolves goes up to OU. What are we going to do? Eliminate the EVO? Petition SU to make it UU so it works with the project? Since tiers are ever changing things, we cant always follow them.

 

[tennisace]

But what if something we evolves goes up to OU. What are we going to do? Eliminate the EVO? Petition SU to make it UU so it works with the project? Since tiers are ever changing things, we cant always follow them.

Then obviously the "niche" we evolved was needed in the standard metagame, and we made a good choice. We're not evolving Pokemon so much as "evolving" niches.

 

[Deck Knight]

But what if something we evolves goes up to OU. What are we going to do? Eliminate the EVO? Petition SU to make it UU so it works with the project? Since tiers are ever changing things, we cant always follow them.

Then we can't use the EVO, simple as that. So if you really want to evolve something close to OU, just be wary of it.

Yes, its difficult, but it only applies in about three instances going off the last stats: Donphan, Milotic, and Ambipom. Donphan is apparently the only pokemon that isn't n00bproof, everything else is OU or UU because the pros use it, I guess.

Whenever there is a tiering decision you don't like, it is inevitably the fault of the ever-menacing, ubiquitous, and all-powerful n00b population. I refuse to be swayed by such flawed thinking.

 

[tennisace]

Then we can't use the EVO, simple as that. So if you really want to evolve something close to OU, just be wary of it.

Yes, its difficult, but it only applies in about three instances going off the last stats: Donphan, Milotic, and Ambipom. Donphan is apparently the only pokemon that isn't n00bproof, everything else is OU or UU because the pros use it, I guess.

Whenever there is a tiering decision you don't like, it is inevitably the fault of the ever-menacing, ubiquitous, and all-powerful n00b population. I refuse to be swayed by such flawed thinking.

I'm sorry but if you're going to go with that mentality we just shouldn't do EVO out of the fear that one of the Pokemon evolved is going to be OU. CAP follows Smogon OU+ CAPs. Therefore, both the EVO and Prevo would be OU technically.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm sorry but if you're going to go with that mentality we just shouldn't do EVO out of the fear that one of the Pokemon evolved is going to be OU. CAP follows Smogon OU+ CAPs. Therefore, both the EVO and Prevo would be OU technically.

Ah yes tennisace, sabotage it on the chance that 3 Pokemon might fluctuate in and out of OU, thus ruining one EVO project for up to 3 months?

Sorry, I'm not biting tennis. As it stands, only Milotic and Ambipom have this chance, as Donphan is OU already.

We shouldn't stop the project on the basis that maybe, possibly, 2 pokemon that might get evolved might get sent to OU 2 months from now.

 

[tennisace]

Ah yes tennisace, sabotage it on the chance that 3 Pokemon might fluctuate in and out of OU, thus ruining one EVO project for up to 3 months?

Sorry, I'm not biting tennis. As it stands, only Milotic and Ambipom have this chance, as Donphan is OU already.

We shouldn't stop the project on the basis that maybe, possibly, 2 pokemon that might get evolved might get sent to OU 2 months from now.

You're completely missing my point. We shouldn't stop any project just because the thing we evolved became OU, see: Porygon2. If for some reason Tentacruel becomes BL/UU, we can evolve it. If it becomes OU again, so what. We still have the EVO, and as long as the EVO isn't broken then why get rid of it? These should be evolutions in the loosest sense, since we're going concept first we should be evolving based on the concept and just making something similar but better.

 

[LoftyTheMetroid]

CAP and EVO's Mission is to create new OU Pokemon. If a Pokemon is already in OU, then a project is unnecessary.

Your beliefs and motives in regards to EVO seem to be rather contradictory.

First, I disagree with the notion that CAP and EVO should both be about creating new OU pokemon (only CAP should do that, and EVO should be about "fixing" them), but it seems like we've already decided to move in that direction.

But, then you make mention about a pokemon "already" being in OU. The logic that has been pushing EVO forward so far has been that of turning it into a CAP with the pre-evo being more superfluous to the role it will have in the metagame. Your version of EVO does not depend on the pre-evo, as you wanted to argue that a concept could be applied to a variety of potential evolution candidates. Thus, from this logical perspective, it becomes almost arbitrary which pokemon is chosen to be evolved. "As long as the concept is sound" the pokemon should turn out fine regardless, was the logic. (If the pokemon had an impact on the concept, then perhaps it should have been chosen first...)

That's why your reasoning is so contradictory. You can believe EVO should be about creating "new" pokemon (even though I would disagree). However, if you do, then the pre-evo shouldn't matter, as one could shoehorn a concept to act as any of a variety of pokemon's evolution.

Then we can't use the EVO, simple as that.

This is some of the most ridiculous, convoluted logic I have ever seen.

If an evolution is completely viable and balanced in a metagame, and then its pre-evo also gets bumped to OU, then... for whatever arbitrary reason, the evo is rendered unusable? Are you acting under some sort of belief that because a pre-evo bumped to a higher tier, that it instantly bumps its evolutions by a similar amount?

I'm sorry, Deck Knight, but this is really incredibly ridiculous.

Edit: Also, what tennisace said.

 

[Deck Knight]

Honestly, its really not that important, nor even something that needs worrying about until long after the first project is complete.

My only requirement is that we not evolve OU pokemon. If they are already OU, they do not need "fixing." Clearly they perform a role important enough to remain on the OU list, and shouldn't be eligible for an evolution.

I really don't care what happens after that, it's all theorycraft.

My objection is to evolving pokemon currently in OU, no matter how "deserving" people think evolving them is because "they suck" or "n00bs use them" or some other specious, impossible to prove reasoning.

So basically this means, no Donphan or Tentacruel unless it is kicked to UU in April.

 

[tennisace]

-words-

Yeah that's basically what we've been saying all along. Are we done now, or is there any other topic you'd like to bring up about your process, because as far as I can see we're ready.

 

[Deck Knight]

Yeah that's basically what we've been saying all along. Are we done now, or is there any other topic you'd like to bring up about your process, because as far as I can see we're ready.

About the only official semi-complex post left is the pokemon selection topic, and basically that's an amalgam of "Topic Leader Nomninations" and "Concept Assessment."

The only real difference is you're nominating Pokemon for evolution, not yourself for a leadership role.

 

[LoftyTheMetroid]

Okay.

If they are already OU, they do not need "fixing."

This is the point you need to address. You are not "fixing" anything, thus the discrepancy. As you said, EVO is making "new" pokemon, ala CAP.

The whole point of going with a concept first was that it would become "secure", regardless of the pre-evo. An independently designed concept does not become "broken" or "balanced" depending on which pre-evo it is standing next to.

Please, don't go into EVO under the pretext that you are "fixing" anything but in name only. EVO will create new pokemon, but that doesn't mean it will expand its pre-evo's niche or fix problems particular to that pre-evo. A broken pokemon may have a balanced evolution attached to it, but that does not mean the two are related in a ideological-gameplay sense.

The advantage of going with "Concept First" is that a pokemon becomes independent of its pre-evo, in that it is irrelevant what tier the pre-evo was to competently implement the evo. "Pokemon First" doesn't have this "advantage", as the whole project would have been tied to the pokemon in question.

Play to your strengths and advantages and all that jazz. If EVO fails due to a Tentacruel or Donphan evolution, then something must be wrong with the process and we'll need to fix it.

Edit: I'm too late, too slow. :(

Continue with the developing of the process and whatever.

 

[tennisace]

About the only official semi-complex post left is the pokemon selection topic, and basically that's an amalgam of "Topic Leader Nomninations" and "Concept Assessment."

The only real difference is you're nominating Pokemon for evolution, not yourself for a leadership role.

I'd like to nominate Xatu for an evolution. Its typing perfectly fits the role of "Cap Counter", since it hits every CAP save Stratagem and "CAP7" for Super-effective. It hits most CAPs on their weaker stat (Special Defense). It also has a good defensive typing, 4x resisting fighting. Lastly, it has an amazing support movepool, and can mess up a lot of other Pokemon. All it needs is a little boost!

-------
Good enough example?

 

[Deck Knight]

I'd like to nominate Xatu for an evolution. Its typing perfectly fits the role of "Cap Counter", since it hits every CAP save Stratagem and "CAP7" for Super-effective. It hits most CAPs on their weaker stat (Special Defense). It also has a good defensive typing, 4x resisting fighting. Lastly, it has an amazing support movepool, and can mess up a lot of other Pokemon. All it needs is a little boost!

-------
Good enough example?

Not as specific as something I would do, but yeah, that's legit. Basically you would update nominations like you would the movepool thread and people would discuss the listings. Whichever listings had the most support would move on, and the nomination topic would remain open for the duration.

 

[tennisace]

So a UU type bold poll with reasoning, I see. I think that would work.

 

[Deck Knight]

So a UU type bold poll with reasoning, I see. I think that would work.

Yeah, once you got fairly certain listings after say, 2 days of nomination + discussion, you would move on to a bold poll of the accepted nominees.

 

[Deck Knight]

I should get this out of the way so if I'm not nominated TL and the project falls on its face because people are confused about the process, it won't be "LOL Deck Knight didn't follow through lol!"

Pokemon Selection Nominations and Process:

This is the thread for people to nominate pokemon they feel fit the concept but are not listed in the provided sample. It is also for discussion of all nominated pokemon, including the sample pokemon.

This thread is strictly for pokemon nomination posts, and posts discussing those pokemon. Please stay on topic.

Here are the guidelines for posting in this thread:

* Pokemon should fit the concept. If the Concept is "Ultimate Baton Passer," do not nominate a pokemon with neither Baton Pass nor useful stat-up moves. One or the other is fine, but such nominations without compelling reasoning will not be considered.

* Please nominate only one pokemon each. This keeps the discussion focused and allows people to consider one idea at a time rather than three ideas at once.

* Use reasoning to support your nomination. "X pokemon deserves an evolution" is not good reasoning and will be deleted. Never, ever include that sentence in a nomination or response.

* Please post reasoned arguments for or against any pokemon nominated, regardless of whether you nominate a pokemon or not.

If these rules are not followed by all posters, the offenders will be moderated.

Sample Nomination:

I nominate Girafarig for the "Weather My Way" Concept because it has a unique typing that gives it weaknesses only to uncommon Bug and Dark attacks, and it can Baton Pass out of Pursuit danger or trapping. Girafarig currently has Thunder to use with Rain Dance, and although it lacks Solarbeam, it does possess both Energy Ball and Grass Knot, and so would not be an unreasonable addition for consideration later. All of Girafarig's stats are fairly mediocre, but with either a speed or a defensive boost, it should be able to change weather and Baton Pass out of a trap relatively unharmed.

Submitted nominations will be listed below as the topic goes on.

Example:

Our Evolution to this point:

Concept: "Weather My Way"
Description: A pokemon with enough bulk or speed to change the weather mid-battle.

Sample:
Golduck: Cloud Nine makes it immune to weather effects, currently sets up Rain or Hail.
Lickilicky: Already fairly bulky, can set up Sunny Day or Rain Dance.
Sandslash: Has increased evade in Sandstorm in addition to good innate defense. Can currently set up Sunny Day or Sandstorm.
Gastrodon: Immune to Sandstorm, has decent defenses and Recover, currently sets up Hail, Rain Dance, and Sandstorm.
Masquerain: With both Hydro Pump and Solarbeam, it could utilize either of Sunny Day or Rain Dance, and open up other possibilities regarding type.

Accepted Nominations:
Golduck
Lickilicky
Sandslash
Gastrodon
Masquerain
Girafarig

Rejected Nominations:
Parasect
Abomasnow

 

[tennisace]

You've forgotten to put in an example of a nomination, so people won't say "Where did girafarig come from?"

 

[Deck Knight]

You've forgotten to put in an example of a nomination, so people won't say "Where did girafarig come from?"

I added in a legal sample for Girafarig. Should I add one for the rejected pokemon or would that be overkill?

 

[tennisace]

I added in a legal sample for Girafarig. Should I add one for the rejected pokemon or would that be overkill?

I think we should evolve Parasect i mean come on it's been begging for an evo and can really work with its ability. Plus its just so cool!

 

[hydrolphin]

I added in a legal sample for Girafarig. Should I add one for the rejected pokemon or would that be overkill?

I can do one quickly...

I nominate Parasect, because he is pretty cool and would be a good Weater My Way. He has long been deserving an EVO and he has Dry Skin, which is good in Rain. Parasect has been a NU forever, and no one uses him, so if we give him an EVo it would be cool.

Edit: added the concept

 

[Colloquy]

I would put what the sample concept was, so people would know it was supposed to be "Weather My Way".

 

[Deck Knight]

I would put what the sample concept was, so people would know it was supposed to be "Weather My Way".

The order is slightly screwed up, but remember "Weather My Way" was the example concept in the Concept Selection OP, so its essentially a continuous document.

It is also relisted below as a sample of how the topic should look like.