Team preview discussion;

[Darkartisan]

I am curious to discover what other members view is on Smogon's current testing method via Pokemon Online. "Team Preview" allows you to view you and your opponent's team before the battle begins, and switch Pokemon if desired. Not only does this add to the depth of the game, but I feel that it truly takes away from it.

Leads become useless. This is apparant via Azelf, an OU staple lead in gen 4, now sitting in UU...seriously? That's pretty lame. Now you can just switch your Tyranitar to the front, and Pursuit it to death...but what if the opponent puts Conkeldurr first?

I mean, there is a positive to it, it adds to the depth of the game, but presonally I just abhor it. The way that I can basically sit down, dissect a team, and pick it apart with my own team just makes the game...well...a lot less fun in my opinion. Not only this, but it also allows players to win much easier. You can sit for 5 minutes, and essentially find every set and combo used on your opponent's team. Skarm/Bliss? Ok, stall. Rain? Ok. Standard Sandstorm...etc.

That's why I play on the Pokebattle center for now. The players are still solid, but I miss out on the top tier Smogoners, and that upsets me. What is your view on this?

 

[rtc3]

It's great imo. It adds an additional layer of depth to the game. It helps ease prediction and is especially beneficial to choice users. I know immediately at the start how to go about winning the match and what mons are/aren't going to be useful, and for me that's a huge plus.

Ntm it wouldn't make sense to remove TP. We play the game as it's given to us, etc etc

edit: i guess all in all it's a matter of preference.

 

[Virizion]

inb4 TorchicBlaziken posts to say "NO! It's called the 'Battle Box sequence', get it right" or something

Anyways, I like it because it makes Zoroark very useful, allowing it to either lead effectively or come out later (hopefully with no hazards on the field) and then commence the mind games.

 

[Tortferngatr]

inb4 TorchicBlaziken posts to say "NO! It's called the "Battle Box sequence" or something

Anyways, I like it because it makes Zoroark very useful, allowing it to either lead effectively or come out later (hopefully with no hazards on the field) and then commence the mind games.

It makes Zoro worse, actually. People might get caught off-guard if they can't see Zoroark coming-when they can, they tend to pay a LOT more attention to things like entry hazards, which give it away. One of the major reasons people didn't want it was that it could masquerade as something else that had entirely different counters, then set up NP with impunity. With Team Preview, the opponent doesn't have to make as big of a mindgame.

 

[Azure Demon]

It makes Zoro worse, actually. People might get caught off-guard if they can't see Zoroark coming-when they can, they tend to pay a LOT more attention to things like entry hazards.

No it doesn't make him less effective

If your opponent is paying attention to you team preview and the order(a lot do) you can mind fuck them by putting zorark wherever you want. Also knowing that Zorark is lurking around makes opponents fear when it is coming.

 

[Virizion]

It makes Zoro worse, actually. People might get caught off-guard if they can't see Zoroark coming-when they can, they tend to pay a LOT more attention to things like entry hazards.

In UU, if a person has a Ghost (not on the field) in their team and has set up two layers of Spikes, and their opponent sends out Zoroark disguised as Hitmontop; how will you know whether to stay in and risk a real Hitmontop using Rapid Spin, or switch out only to have your Ghost hit SE by Zoroark?

 

[Tortferngatr]

In UU, if a person has a Ghost (not on the field) in their team and has set up two layers of Spikes, and their opponent sends out Zoroark disguised as Hitmontop; how will you know whether to stay in and risk a real Hitmontop using Rapid Spin, or switch out only to have your Ghost hit SE by Zoroark?

...voila. No more indecision!

 

[Virizion]

...voila. No more indecision!

Not everyone runs SR in UU (and some people aren't able to get it up early enough).

 

[Seth Vilo]

I personally am extremely glad team preview exists; with all the absurd threats this generation, especially weather, you can better prepare yourself for the match ahead. Say I come up against a sandstorm team. I know I can afford to sack my rain counter now, but know that I have to keep Gliscor alive. Yes, they now know my prime sweeper in Volcarona, but it keeps the crazy predictions from having to be too nuts. Worthy trade, if you ask me. Instead of the stress of not knowing what of 649 creatures is coming out of those balls, you can prepare mentally for individual matches.

I also am extremely glad that the "lead" metagame is pretty much gone. It may just be me, but having almost a battle within a battle in the lead spot pissed me off a bit. Not even going into the Stealth Rock high that caused...

Sadly, Shdinja is now almost useless, since if you see one you'll keep your Sheddy swatter alive at all costs... There went a really cool rain counter!

 

[ssbbm]

Team Preview basically helps to make sure that team matchup doesn't kill you as badly as it would this gen. I mean imagine Excadrill without team preview - you'd never be able to sac your Gliscor against a sand team "just in case"

 

[lmitchell0012]

Okay, other than zoroark, how else does team preview add to the metagame??

 

[rtc3]

you can outpredict your opponent even before the match starts

 

[ssbbm]

Okay, other than zoroark, how else does team preview add to the metagame??

Add to the metagame? It keeps many sweepers in check and allows for *some* defense, but I don't really know what you're asking for...

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Quite interesting is the effect it can have on the 1vs1 metagame on Wifi (PO doesn't have the whole selection thing down yet). Since you can bring 6 to choose from, but only 1 to pick, and you can see what they have to choose from, too, then it can be quite the interesting mind game before the battle even commences.

Also, I never tried to put another specific name. I just said that it would be a more accurate name and I should add that there are probably better names. Anyway, I don't care at this point; I only really care that people know that it's a bit more than what the name implies.

In Flat Battles, you could bring a Zoroark, and they could expect it and put their trusty Zoroark counters on their team, but what if you didn't put it on your team at all?

 

[poccil]

It should also be kept in mind that this feature is not new to Pokémon Black and White versions. Even in Pokémon Stadium 1 and 2, as a battle begins, each player can see the other player's team as he or she chooses his or her Pokémon. Each player's selection is kept secret through the technique of assigning each Pokémon a different button on the controller. This feature persisted in Pokemon Colosseum and Battle Revolution, and now, for the first time in a main version, in Pokémon Black and White.

 

[Virizion]

It should also be kept in mind that this feature is not new to Pokémon Black and White versions. Even in Pokémon Stadium 1 and 2, as a battle begins, each player can see the other player's team as he or she chooses his or her Pokémon. Each player's selection is kept secret through the technique of assigning each Pokémon a different button on the controller. This feature persisted in Pokemon Colosseum and Battle Revolution, and now, for the first time in a main version, in Pokémon Black and White.

I'm sure that most, if not all, of us are aware of that already.

 

[Miao]

If it wern't for team preview, far more pokemon would be broken.

Garchomp, Salamence, Latios, Latias and even Wobbafet were all banned in gen IV.

Most of these are powerful sweepers, and the last is a trapper. By knowing what's coming you can say "It's more important I save my counter to X" than to sac it early. Trappers (especially with things like shadow tag chandelure on the horizon) as well as strong sweepers (latios) are more easily dealt with when you know they're coming.

Lets not forget those great days of having to have 3 things on your team with ice moves, just in case you ran into a surprise garchomp.

Does this cut out surprise? Yes, but it adds more strategy and care to everything you do.

Quite interesting is the effect it can have on the 1vs1 metagame on Wifi (PO doesn't have the whole selection thing down yet). Since you can bring 6 to choose from, but only 1 to pick, and you can see what they have to choose from, too, then it can be quite the interesting mind game before the battle even commences.

I love this about flat battle format. :) I'm actually working on a dual weather team right now (Rain and Sun) since they overlap a bit. (Sand and Hail don't overlap much, but might make a good pair too)

 

[Taylor]

without tp gen 5 would be suicide.

i personally dislike that your strategies are in black and white (hey...) before the match has even started.

 

[Virizion]

If it wern't for team preview, far more pokemon would be broken.

Garchomp, Salamence, Latios, Latias and even Wobbafet were all banned in gen IV.

Most of these are powerful sweepers, and the last is a trapper. By knowing what's coming you can say "It's more important I save my counter to X" than to sac it early. Trappers (especially with things like shadow tag chandelure on the horizon) as well as strong sweepers (latios) are more easily dealt with when you know they're coming.

Lets not forget those great days of having to have 3 things on your team with ice moves, just in case you ran into a surprise garchomp.

Does this cut out surprise? Yes, but it adds more strategy and care to everything you do.



I love this about flat battle format. :) I'm actually working on a dual weather team right now (Rain and Sun) since they overlap a bit. (Sand and Hail don't overlap much, but might make a good pair too)

I like using teams like this, I usually use Drizzletoed/Starmie/Whimsicott alongside Droughtales/Darmanitan/Jumpluff in Triples - and I can imagine a SS/Hail team working, since they share Reuniclus at least. The bad thing is opposing weather teams - full/half Hail or Rain beats your mini-Sandstorm team, while full/half Sun or Sandstorm (Rock attacks) beats your mini-Hail team. I suppose that your Sandstorm half can beat opposing Hail, but it depends on the teams really.

 

[skitz0phrenic]

I can respect the points of value that it adds to the game in pre-game strategy, but I personally feel it makes the game far more dull. Scouting your opponents team isn't even important anymore other than what set they may be running, coupled with the fact that 9/10 teams in OU are sand/rain comprised of the same 15 Pokemon (and very rarely do any of them run more than the same 2-3 sets) really just makes for a boring OU tier.

It's not as bad in UU where you don't know exactly what to expect due to the larger number of actually viable Pokemon and the sometimes oddball yet successful sets some of them can pull off. What good is the element of surprise when the surprise is shown to you beforehand?

I know personally when my roommate and I battle with B/W, we cover our screens during the battle box part, and it makes the battles much more intense and interesting.

 

[Tagrineth]

I think part of what made Nintendo add team preview might be that they didn't like the "lead" sub-metagame (that elevated entry hazards esp. stealth rock to god tier) or the process of scouting (that elevated the otherwise decent U-Turn to god tier) toward the end of the Gen IV metagame.

The problem I see with it, especially, is that WITHOUT team preview, your first several "predictions" are blatant guesses. Guesswork is awesome in a competitive atmosphere...

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Just nit-picking really, but how can it be "easier to win" with team preview? There's still 2 players, so they both have a 50% chance of winning, on average. If it's easier for you to win with team preview, it's easier for the opponent to win, as he also gets team preview. So it balances out.

 

[animenagai]

I've been a fan of team preview for a while now. The OP has already touched on dissecting a team with team preview, but where I disagree is that it makes the game less fun. I'm finding myself thinking at a higher level than last gen because of team preview. I can think of more intermediate strategies now with team preview. Should I set up spikes and slow roll them for a while or should I just try and push early? If I want to set up with skarm, maybe I should lead with roo, since that lures in his hippow. Of course, these things can still be done without team preview, and in a sense, I do miss the mystique and induction skills needed without team preview.

Does that mean I think it makes the game worse though? No I don't. This is especially true since 5th gen has so many different threats (Taylor's point I think). I don't need to be extremely focused on defense when I'm team building just to survive the plans my opponents have (pushing with 2 sand sweepers and overloading on a threat, trapping skarm to spam draco's etc.).

I like it.

 

[Es.Rayky]

I hate it, all i know is that every team has a lead, with team preview, there's no lead. I agree with animeagai that the game will be boring if we know each other team. Predicting is much easier, which is bad. Trust me, you dont want to see EW vs Gouki on a "team preview" match...

 

[Skorpius47]

I hate it, all i know is that every team has a lead, with team preview, there's no lead. I agree with animeagai that the game will be boring if we know each other team. Predicting is much easier, which is bad. Trust me, you dont want to see EW vs Gouki on a "team preview" match...

I don't understand this post. You say that teams used to always have a lead without team preview, then you say team preview is too predictable. Wouldn't teams not using the same type of Pokemon be less predictable?