So basically the argument in favor of team preview: Less guesswork = more skill
Argument against team preview: More guesswork= more adrenalin?
Argument against team preview: More guesswork= more adrenalin?
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Team preview discussion;
- Thread starter Darkartisan
- Start date
You're out of your mind. None of those are broken; don't suggest to ban something only because you "don't like it".
JSND: That why you have to build a good team.
I saw one match before. An Idiot Player use Scizor Bullet Punch on Jirachi even that idiot knows Jirachi has Fire Punch. After weaken Jirachi, that idiot's opponent leads 5-3 lol (suicide 3 pokemon to weaken Jirachi) then that idiot switch in CScarf Terrakion spamming Stone Edge, finally, that idiot won 3-0. You love to watch/play this kind of games? It's not skill, finding opponent's team has Rock weak, try to weaken Jirachi then win by CS Terrakion Stone Edge, i think a 3 years old baby can do that lol.
IMO, you'd better find ways to avoid being raped by building a good team, not seeing their team and try to win. You lose Scout and Building team Skill with Team Preview, even Game-Controlling Skill. Somebody says that Team Preview requires Controlling skill but i don't think so because you know your opponent from the start, you plan to win from the start, just follow the plan and you win. It's not controlling skill imo
I saw one match before. An Idiot Player use Scizor Bullet Punch on Jirachi even that idiot knows Jirachi has Fire Punch. After weaken Jirachi, that idiot's opponent leads 5-3 lol (suicide 3 pokemon to weaken Jirachi) then that idiot switch in CScarf Terrakion spamming Stone Edge, finally, that idiot won 3-0. You love to watch/play this kind of games? It's not skill, finding opponent's team has Rock weak, try to weaken Jirachi then win by CS Terrakion Stone Edge, i think a 3 years old baby can do that lol.
IMO, you'd better find ways to avoid being raped by building a good team, not seeing their team and try to win. You lose Scout and Building team Skill with Team Preview, even Game-Controlling Skill. Somebody says that Team Preview requires Controlling skill but i don't think so because you know your opponent from the start, you plan to win from the start, just follow the plan and you win. It's not controlling skill imo
Pretty much how I see it, although if it's a good battle there should be adrenaline with or without team preview...
@Above: I don't think you've played enough with team preview. If you can show me a match where YOU (i.e. Not someone else) Effectively make a "plan" against a quality opponent (someone who you've never played against) and win by 3+ pokes (A good plan shouldn't involve much death, right?) then I'll eat my words.
There's more to strategy than just a team; that's what makes Pokemon such a versatile game.
I agree with those who say Team Preview is a shift in the skills you need. Your thinking becomes more long-term rather than short term, you start scouting for movesets rather than pokemon, and there is a greater incentive to use unorthodox sets. Also, risk assessment (should I switch my Gyarados into the ScarfNape's Close Combat, or will he predict the switchin and use Thunderpunch?) and resource management (you need to keep tabs on what pokemon you need to check the opponent's, and you know that pokemon can eventually win you the game provided you take care of them).
All in all, I think the thinking during the game becomes higher-leveled, as I've gone from attack-attack-die-revenge kill to predicting switches and chipping down their walls to eventually break through with x threat. Meanwhile, my opponent is trying to take the momentum and protect that wall's integrity while trying to pose a threat back.
What's cool is if you think hard, you can come up with a "win condition" you need to reach in order to win the game, and your game-playing from that point becomes more tactical than reactive.
It makes Pokemon seem almost as intellectual and deep as chess.
/exaggeration
All in all, I think the thinking during the game becomes higher-leveled, as I've gone from attack-attack-die-revenge kill to predicting switches and chipping down their walls to eventually break through with x threat. Meanwhile, my opponent is trying to take the momentum and protect that wall's integrity while trying to pose a threat back.
What's cool is if you think hard, you can come up with a "win condition" you need to reach in order to win the game, and your game-playing from that point becomes more tactical than reactive.
It makes Pokemon seem almost as intellectual and deep as chess.
/exaggeration
Then your opponent should be prepared for CS Stone edge Terrakion if he's that weak to rock. Imo, that Jirachi user is the idiot if he plaeyd like that.
No, before, it was (glorified) guessing.
...Ah, I see what you mean. And still can't see your point. Of course you wouldn't sacrifice three pokémon to take one out one in the beginning of the match; you've just said it, you would have zero idea of the opponent's team, doing so would be beyond retarded. What if the opponent had a Scizor to stop Scarf Terrakion and two of the pokémon you sacrificed were the ones that could take care of it?. If you do that nowadays, it's clearly because Jirachi is the only thing between you and victory, and the Jirachi user knows that too. It's the Jirachi user's job to ensure it will be alive until Terrakion is dead, while they work on their own strategy to win.
It seems that match's problem was the Jirachi user playing like an ass.
It seems that match's problem was the Jirachi user playing like an ass.
It's also quite disappointing to be able to call the match before it even starts.
Team preview will never be banned, the simulators are designed to be as close to the game as possible. It's not like banning a pokemon because it's "broken", it's a fundamental part of the b/w metagame.
With the massive number of threats in 5th gen, it's vital to be able to see someone's team to get an idea of what you need to do. It's not a case of "I know he has Lucario, I'll keep my Gliscor alive and win", there's a load of strategy involved even after getting your game plan together. Without tp we'd all be guessing and battle results would be very inconsistent.
Nobody can say "oh I lost that match because of team preview", you both have the same advantage at the start of the match, your opponent is trying to eliminate your key team members as fast as you are trying to keep them alive. Take advantage of it.
With the massive number of threats in 5th gen, it's vital to be able to see someone's team to get an idea of what you need to do. It's not a case of "I know he has Lucario, I'll keep my Gliscor alive and win", there's a load of strategy involved even after getting your game plan together. Without tp we'd all be guessing and battle results would be very inconsistent.
Nobody can say "oh I lost that match because of team preview", you both have the same advantage at the start of the match, your opponent is trying to eliminate your key team members as fast as you are trying to keep them alive. Take advantage of it.
...Isn't that ideal? More predictions, less guessing?
@Darkartisain: With or without team preview, you still have a 50% of calling the match before it starts...
Says who? The odds of winning the match techincally is 50%, but pending on the Pokemon that you have and the Pokemon that the opponent has, it could very easily be in the others favor even up to i'd say as much as 80%. Pure sandstorm vs Pure rain? Rain is like 100% barring hax/crits, gay shit.
The reason to build a good team is so that you minimize your chances of having to guess and check opponent's Pokemon. Now with team preview, you could still throw a cookie cutter team and be even better off. I mean, it's not like i'm losing tons of matches at all even with team preview, but it's just not as fun. You could perhaps even argue that the game becomes "autopilot" even more so than last gen, although last gen it wasn't very auto-pilot at all due to no previous team knowledge of your opponent.
Yeah ok I give up, you don't even know what you're talking about.
Are you kidding me? That's a completely fair example. Now does it even matter if I run Zone or trappers? Does it even matter if I run skarm/bliss? I don't see how you guys are all so comfortable with revealing teams before the game starts. It's so fucking retarded on another level...
It does. Magnezone can still trap those Steels, you just need to actually think to ensure you'll get them with Magnezone. Team Preview is not nearly as bad as your trying to make it seem, and it shouldn't matter if the opponent sees your team because if your team is good enough, it should win regardless.
EDIT: ^That
Even though this has been said enough this thread, Team Preview does add it's own level of depth to the game...
If you can't see that or can't be bothered to just go back and play HG/SS that way you won't have any Team Preview to complain about..
Wrong.
Even though this has been said enough this thread, Team Preview does add it's own level of depth to the game...
If you can't see that or can't be bothered to just go back and play HG/SS that way you won't have any Team Preview to complain about..
Be to honest, leads are still plenty useful, sure then you can tell what they are leading with, but I highly doubt you have a counter for every single type of lead, thats a bit overkill, and even then they just might predict and switch to a diferent pokemon, which is more offensively oriented, to beat your anti lead. For example, if I see an Aerodactyl on a team, sure I know thats going first, but I can't do anything about it, I don't have an anti-Aero pokemon, so it still works as a lead.
Run
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TP decentralizes the metagame. I think it makes games less cut-and-dry, not more.
First looking at leads. Leads have always been as simple as rocks, EXPLODE!; or anti-lead, etc... one pokemon designed to do one job at the very beginning of the match against as many possible other leads as possible. Now, your opening requires actual strategy. Openings are more about opening plays, not opening pokemon. No longer are stealth rocks a given. In Gen IV, a bad lead matchup could throw off a whole match, that early disadvantage is not a mark of one player or the others skill, but rather the luck of the draw on lead vs. lead. Early momentum can be hard to get back. However, with tp, you have to account for any plausible leads and come up with an opening strategy. Sure, with both of you looking and picking you can still end up with a bad matchup, but you both got to look and pick, its not nearly as much of a gamble.
As far as revealing the whole team is concerned, I think tp does take something away from strategically revealing pokemon so you can take out your biggest threats before bringing in the big guns. On the flip side, if you are building your team and playing correctly, your match shouldn't be about keeping the best secrets, but rather forcing your opponent to play into your strategy. One secret pokemon can no longer flip the match. Players need to be more creative with their playstyles in order keep momentum. Versatility and prediction are now more important.
I think without tp, rain and sand teams would be even more rampant. Its tp that allows more versatile teams and strategies to win out. Any time your strategy is broadcast, it looses some of its effectiveness. You see a team that's obviously stall? keep your taunter alive and handy, identify the biggest holdups to your team, lure them out and clear the way. Sand or Rain or Sun or Hail? you can see which pokes need to stay healthy. Those teams that lack diversity are putting all their hopes in being able to take down the 1-2 major threats you have so their singular advantages win for them. Tp decentralizes the metagame away from less diverse teams because the more diverse team is harder to predict and the less diverse team is much more easily identified and strategized against.
I hated the idea of tp before i actually started playing with it. But it has made the game significantly more deep for me. Pokemon has always resembled chess to me, and now even more so.
First looking at leads. Leads have always been as simple as rocks, EXPLODE!; or anti-lead, etc... one pokemon designed to do one job at the very beginning of the match against as many possible other leads as possible. Now, your opening requires actual strategy. Openings are more about opening plays, not opening pokemon. No longer are stealth rocks a given. In Gen IV, a bad lead matchup could throw off a whole match, that early disadvantage is not a mark of one player or the others skill, but rather the luck of the draw on lead vs. lead. Early momentum can be hard to get back. However, with tp, you have to account for any plausible leads and come up with an opening strategy. Sure, with both of you looking and picking you can still end up with a bad matchup, but you both got to look and pick, its not nearly as much of a gamble.
As far as revealing the whole team is concerned, I think tp does take something away from strategically revealing pokemon so you can take out your biggest threats before bringing in the big guns. On the flip side, if you are building your team and playing correctly, your match shouldn't be about keeping the best secrets, but rather forcing your opponent to play into your strategy. One secret pokemon can no longer flip the match. Players need to be more creative with their playstyles in order keep momentum. Versatility and prediction are now more important.
I think without tp, rain and sand teams would be even more rampant. Its tp that allows more versatile teams and strategies to win out. Any time your strategy is broadcast, it looses some of its effectiveness. You see a team that's obviously stall? keep your taunter alive and handy, identify the biggest holdups to your team, lure them out and clear the way. Sand or Rain or Sun or Hail? you can see which pokes need to stay healthy. Those teams that lack diversity are putting all their hopes in being able to take down the 1-2 major threats you have so their singular advantages win for them. Tp decentralizes the metagame away from less diverse teams because the more diverse team is harder to predict and the less diverse team is much more easily identified and strategized against.
I hated the idea of tp before i actually started playing with it. But it has made the game significantly more deep for me. Pokemon has always resembled chess to me, and now even more so.
The problem with the lead metagame weren't the leads themselves, but the anti-leads, anti-anti-leads and anti-anti-anti-leads. Now you can have an anti-Machamp, anti-Azelf, Anti-Deoxys and anti-Azelf pokémon and put them as your lead if the need arises, instead of having one anti-everything always at the lead spot.
Oh, I'm not going to say that it makes it easier to use. Not at all. But then again, most people don't know how to use it anyways. If you opponent doesn't know it is coming, they will just play normally. You might get lucky and they use a bad move, but in generally it won't change too much. However, if they know it is coming, not only can you make them second guess themselves, but you could also force a bad switch or attack if they think it is Zoroark. No one is going to guess Zoro if not for TP.
Basically, as I said before, it makes him less noob friendly, but for the most skilled users, it may actually be an advantage.
But to deny leads don't exist though is futile, becuase they still do exist, yes now there is a very diferent lead metagame, but its still a lead metagame, just not the way we are use to it.