Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)

[Darkflagrance]

That is an improvement and could be fine on a Pokemon with weakish defences if it still took damage switching in, I like the do 1 damage to the team idea from a competitive angle, but don't see how it would fit flavorwise.

I don't really see why we need to weaken Entry Hazards, its not like they really break the game they just make one type of team possible (Full Stall) and help some sweepers to achieve KOs.

It would be extremely bizarre to randomly have pokemon on your team faint when you send out a pokemon. Imagine a team of 5 Shedinja and something with this ability.

Focus Sash isn't that broken; I don't see why we have to go out of our way to neuter it when this ability is used. In addition to entry hazards, sandstorm and hail also act as potential counters to Focus Sash.

A team that truly desires to abuse the Focus Sash can easily incorporate spinners anyway. However, the point of making a more competitive spinner to make something that is easier to use and more ideal for this purpose - to allow its versatility to enable more viable teams. To prevent the use of spinning for a specific purpose seems a bit paranoid unless that purpose has been shown to be uncontestably broken within the game.

In my opinion, removing 1 level of each spikes is not really that bad (especially that ill-thought out stealth rock); but if you think I am biased against entry hazards, perhaps an alternative would be a pokemon (poison-type) with the ability to clear 1 layer of entry hazard by priority: Stealth Rock-first, then Spikes, then Toxic Spikes. It would also be able to rapid spin (perhaps even learn a rapid spin of an alternative type).

 

[Luck]

The case study for something like this is already in the game "Toxic spikes".If we were to make poison types just immune and not suck up TS the out cry would be that TS is broken.

My suggestion is we already something to remove TS.If we make auto removal spikes ability certain things should happen

-.It only removes 1 layer of spikes.So if 3 spikes are down,only one is removed or if stealth rock and 1 spikes is down it removes the which ever was put down first.

-It can't be a bulky pokemon.It should have survivability of say Blakizen or Houndoom

-It should be trappable by Magenton and Dugtrio

-Toxic spikes should not be included in the auto hazard removal

-Auto spin should still be block by ghost

Well a taught out pokemon would be fair and something useful to the game.The main reason i like auto remove is because of stealth rock a person can put down 1 stealth rock and screw you up pretty badly.The ease of which stealth rock is put has removed with little function fire types had in the game.I believe auto spin trait can be put in without totally changing the game

 

[Luck]

I can't say I don't agree, but my reasoning I posted earlier should explain my thoughts on this:
It also ties into my last post in the last topic, which was more directed to "overpoweredness" in general:
I always thought the CAP Project should only have subtle influences on the metagame. For instance, instead of running HP: Ice of Celebi, you run Psychic to deal with Revenankh, or Sludge Bomb > HP: Electric/Ice Beam on Tentacruel for Woodman. I understand the point of the CAP Project "design, create, and playtest new Pokémon concepts to explore and understand the competitive Pokémon metagame," but the changes should be undramatic and leave enough space for people to get used to the change. For example, the whole weather project can be game-changing, but not in a way that it forces someone to adapt completely to the new environment. I guess it depends on your definition of "subtle."

I saw this post in thread in a other thread.I didn't want to clutter the spillover poll with this beside it fits here better.

If we making decent to good pokes then you would be right but we are making competitive pokes and "Every competitive poke we make fundamentally changes the way game is played".Every poke we make moves us further away from the game Nintendo made and it ain't small change.So far we have not made mid level competitive pokes we have made top line aka Garchomp ,T-tar, and Gyrados type pokes the game is vastly different with just two new pokes.

The second part is the weather comment.People have been over estimating rain effect and other weather efftcts and are so sure of their point they unwilling change when reason common is involved.It was basically agreed that unending drought and drizzle is to much.Then DJD suggest lite version that work for only 5 turns.Then people with out testing say that is too much.Also DJD has always bring up a point if rain dance and sunny day are so scary why aren't people using them more.I am going to bring the point home

I can use a Max defense/Sp defense Suicune with wet rock.I can basically get off 8 turn rain dance when i ever want.I am going to admit it can be stop but i am going to say the percentage of time i can get rain dance off is between 90-95%.I can do version of that with Tangrowth or Heatran for around 80-85% of time or can use Cresselia or Snorlax get the same 90-95%.

So what is worse

100% rain dance for 5 turns
85-95% rain dance for 8 turns

You stop both the same way.So why aren't more uber broken rain dance teams used ?My point is not convince that autoweather is not broken because it could be when tested.My point is we should test before make certain statements like

-Auto weather effects are broken period
-Auto spinning trait is broken period
-Scrappy spin is broken period


because it was said

-Celebi was uber in R/S
-Jirachi was uber in R/S
-Garchomp was going to be uber/and is uber
-Ryhperior was going to be uber
-T-tar is uber

Theorymon failed because when these poke were introduce the OU game, well let just say they are still in the Ou metagame.My point is keep an open mind

 

[Falling Objects.]

I'd like to see a pokemon that benefits from the opponent laying Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock instead just bing able to just auto spin them away. Like say if there was a Pokemon that had some magnetizing move that let pick up all of the traps, but with each one, it's attack goes up 1 stage. We'd have to make the Pokemon weak (like 60-70 base atk), but 5+ atk in one turn because your opponent abused Spikes, TS & SR. I think it should be given some thought.

Or maybe it could be more like this:

- Spikes = Atk

- Toxic Spikes = Special Atk

- Stealth Rock = Defense

So with 3 layers of Spikes you get 3+ stages of atk, 2 layers of Toxic Spikes would be 2+ Sp Atk SR would just be defense.

 

[jagged_angel]

That's a wkd idea Falling Objects!

I would also like to see a poison/steel typing (many resistances, 2x Fire weak, 4x Ground weak) with Rapin Spin and the necessary support moves to ignore/deal with its crappy STABs.

 

[Lil Ant]

Ok, i'm not trying to downgrade this idea at all, i seriously like and encourage this weather project. But, on the other hand, you are moving on to other projects, when you have yet to finish other projects. It's obvious that the other CAP projects, Syclant and Reven are flawed. The CAP server has numerous complaints about a portion of Syclant movepool and also about the ability Reven has to Rest and shed its skin. So why don't you address those projects before moving onto the next.

 

[Captain]

Doug has been working on writing up the revision process. Don't worry too much about it. If there's obviously broken stuff it'll be dealt with eventually. Just because we're talking about future projects doesn't mean we're totally done with what we've done in the past.

 

[latinoheat]

where does the create an evolution experiment fit in all of this, are we still going to run one alongside CAP 4.

 

[DougJustDoug]

We will be doing a concept discussion and poll at the beginning of the next CAP to determine the theme of the project. Weather will be a concept up for discussion. If enough people want it, then it will win. If not, that's fine too.

Evolutions will be a separate project, sometime in the future.

Have we learned anything from the Lvl 78 Groudon/Kyogre testing on the CAP server? I've seen that people have been using them. What's the consensus? Is auto-weather completely dominant or not? I really want to know before the concept poll. Should the weather project pokemon have perma-weather or nerfed auto-weather?

I DO NOT WANT THEORYMON OPINIONS. We've heard all the weather theorymon earlier in this thread. Please don't add to it. I want to hear from people that have actually been involved in the weather testing on the server. Please speak up and give some substantial feedback. Detailed testing results would be fantastic.

 

[eric the espeon]

Well we have not had a real testing team or a full scale test, but from the 20-25 battles I have had with my sun and my rain teams, they are dam strong.
Not totally broken, but they were both quickly made teams without a very well thought out plan, just an assortment of Pokemon that work well under that weather and a single tank to stop the most obvious weaknesses.
My belief is that a well made, and well played, team with prema weather on its side would be almost unstoppable in OU. Heatran can help against sun (absorbs fire, 4X resists the chlorophyll users main STAB) and something like Ludicario or Kingdra will make it hard for rain but they can be beaten, also if you KO their weather inducer and bring in your own you will most often beat them.
Not totally broken but it would drastically change the metagame, I think that 4, 5, 8 or 10 turn weather would be far better but we can't test which of those would be best right now (not programed) and we don't have a organized test tea, could we pick someone/someone volunteer to organize the testing? I can't do it now due to exams, I could probably be in the team though.

From what I have seen and expect if it was on a Poke with similar power to Lv78 Groudon/Kyorge.
Note not tested just an educated guess.
4 turns would be gimmicky.
5 turns would be usable, but a bit rare.
8 turns would be a decent strategy.
10 turns would be top class OU, maybe a bit too strong.


I don't think perma weather is a good idea at all, but to find the right way to nerf it we need other options programed in and preferably an official organized testing team.

 

[Dane]

Need a little more than "tried it, was powerful". How was it powerful, what made it so strong, how well did your opponents' play, etc etc. This is why I wanted a test topic, where complete logs were submitted (in that weird scroll box thing) along with a brief analysis of each battle. That way you got the battler's impressions, as well as the hard data to make your own conclusions.

 

[eric the espeon]

Need a little more than "tried it, was powerful". How was it powerful, what made it so strong, how well did your opponents' play, etc etc. This is why I wanted a test topic, where complete logs were submitted (in that weird scroll box thing) along with a brief analysis of each battle. That way you got the battler's impressions, as well as the hard data to make your own conclusions.

I know, but that thread does not exist as of yet, and we do not have a official testing team.
These are what we need to get a really good idea of how strong it would be.

I have left my teams on a different computer but when I have access to them I will post them. I have not saved any logs yet, but will from now on.

Anyway first about sun:
I used a Counter-Sash Groudon/ScarfTran/LO SDTangrowth/SpecsMoltres/SpecsEggsecutor/BURevenankh team for sun testing.
Most OU teams are simply not prepared for the raw power of a Specs or Flash Fire Fire Blast in the sun coming off a massive base Sp. Attack, even the best sp. walls get worn down by repeated attacks, those who resist Fire (Bulky Waters and the odd bulky fire mostly as Rocks and Dragons will often be 2KOd by the most powerful attacks) get slaughtered by Chlorophyll Grasses or Solarbeam.
Heatran is my biggest problem so I have a Ground move on 4/6 of my Pokemon and fighting on the other 2, other FF users could be annoying but they are very rare (and I have many fire resists) so I have had few problems with them.
My SD Tangrowth is what sweeps most often, it has 66% recovery in the sun and enough speed to beat almost anything, very bulky defense and somewhat usable Sp. def along with a +2 attack move.

Teams that beat it.... well Heatran was a problem until I put in extra ground moves, now its not to had to beat. If my Groudon goes down and they change the weather I will often lose, but I have no reason to let them kill 'Don unless they change the weather this is why I think limited turns would help, it would force the weather changer to come out and give the opposing player a chance to kill it.
Really good player with a good team have won against it, but only 'cos the are far better than me, if they had weather I would have had no chance.
If I play recklessly it will lose, I have done this quite a bit TBH.
Luck is a factor it can help people beat it but really its not going to save you often.

that what you wanted Dane?

 

[DougJustDoug]

If someone is willing to organize a formal testing team, please speak up. If there is a qualified candidate, I'm willing to let them create some dedicated threads for testing and results. Also, I've said many times that I am willing to temporarily make a Groudino and Kyogrette with 5-turn limit weather. But, I'm not going to go to the trouble, if there is not going to be an organized testing effort.

 

[Dane]

that what you wanted Dane?

Very much so. Arigatou.

 

[tennisace]

I would be willing to organize the formal testing, if you would allow me to. I would also be willing to do it with a partner if thats better for you.

 

[Cooper]

tennis would be good for testing the program, so long as he doesn't get distracted by women.

 

[tennisace]

those damn 5 or 6 women coming on the server...
All kidding aside, i'd be very willing to work with Cooper on this.

 

[eric the espeon]

Yes tennis would be very able to do it.

Right so how do you plan to chose your team? and can I join?

 

[jagged_angel]

Just a quick run down of my stint with Kyogre and friends last night, I kept a battle tally and won 10/10 matches which just isn't like me!

I had CSKyogre, WWSkarm, Gengar with Thunder and Hypnosis, Kingdra, Ludicolo and Syclant.

To get an idea of the power of STAB Rainy Surf with Mystic Water - Metagross and Gengar die like that, Garchomp takes about 60/70%, Blissey takes around 40%, pretty much anything that doesn't resist it or is a special wall will die from it. Kingdra can also run Waterfall for Blissey.

With autorain you can run Fire weak pokes that no longer receive double damage, such as Skarmory, Syclant, Bronzong, Gross, Scizor and Forretress - All of those will increase in usage on rain dance teams. Kingdra usage will skyrocket (although Ludicolo swept more often when Energy Balling their Water switch in). Ludicolo also no longer needed Rain Dance so had Leech Seed to beat Blissey.

Thunder usage would obviously be common so opposing Water pokes are not good switch ins for a rainy team. Gyrados usage would fall dramatically. UU water types would get into OU more often.

The only time I am consistently beaten with Rain Dance (even when I had Damp Rock Swampert to lead) is through sheer skill or opposing autoweather.

Sorry this isn't that succinct a summary of my autoweather experience, my main point is that permarain is carnage and would probably beat autosun as the best OU Swift Swim pokes i.e. Kingdra and Ludicolo aren't weak to grass moves or fire moves. On the other hand, any Fire type operating in Rain is severely nerfed, even it has Grass STAB like Pyroak.

I would suggest an 8 turn autoweather would be game changing but not unmanageable - anything more would force people to completely change their team and tactics when playing on the CAP server.

The important thing is to keep the server accessible to newcomers so if weather strategies become dominant in CAP OU, CAP accessibility will decrease as many newcomers will not stay to make a completely new team to combat weather strategies.

My final suggestion is that any autosun poke should be more powerful and/or provide more team benefits than the rainy counterpart, simply because autorain>autosun.

 

[tennisace]

Yes tennis would be very able to do it.

Right so how do you plan to chose your team? and can I join?

Thanks for the support. If i was chosen, i would probably pick two people to assist me, and maybe a couple more to do grunt work of figuring out counters and whatnot.

EDIT: or i could do it the Rhode Island way and give positions of power to my supporters =P jk

EDIT2: There is an ability on Captain's server called Dragon Heart, only given to Charizard. The second part of the ability is auto permasun ONLY WHEN IT DIES. We should test this. Also, what about a Lv78 Rayquaza to negate all weather? Did anyone think of it? If im chosen ill put it in there with Groudonino and Kyogrette.

 

[eric the espeon]

Thanks for the support. If i was chosen, i would probably pick two people to assist me, and maybe a couple more to do grunt work of figuring out counters and whatnot.

if you want, but I would advise a few more than that I have spoken to about 5-6 people interested in this test on shoddy already so if you wanted you could probably find 10-15 decent battlers.
Or you could have a small official team and get many more people to post in the testing thread.


EDIT2: There is an ability on Captain's server called Dragon Heart, only given to Charizard. The second part of the ability is auto permasun ONLY WHEN IT DIES. We should test this.
Interesting idea... would have to be renamed for CaP i think... I don't know really it depends on what the voters think but it seams a bit too weak to me.

Also, what about a Lv78 Rayquaza to negate all weather? Did anyone think of it? If im chosen ill put it in there with Groudonino and Kyogrette.
The idea was to have a Pokemon with a clear all weather ability, not just while the Pokemon is in play.
Rayquaza is not as neccersery as you can use Revenankh or Golduck who have the same ability, but the remove al weather ability could be helpful.
DJD how hard would it be to program?

 

[Cooley]

If someone is willing to organize a formal testing team, please speak up. If there is a qualified candidate, I'm willing to let them create some dedicated threads for testing and results. Also, I've said many times that I am willing to temporarily make a Groudino and Kyogrette with 5-turn limit weather. But, I'm not going to go to the trouble, if there is not going to be an organized testing effort.

I'm am at your services. Just PM me, so i can tell you my team and then test and share my results with you.

 

[DougJustDoug]

tennisace - Thanks for volunteering. You're the man.

Make a thread called "Weather Ability Testing" and organize your testing team. I'd also like to get it clear on the server what is going on. Currently, there are a lot of pissed off users that have been blindsided when they see a Groudon or Kyogre on the field.

I'll make some programming changes on the server to help your team out. I'll post more info in your testing thread when you make it.

 

[tennisace]

w00t thanks Doug. Ok heres how its going down: Since there are so many things we have to test, im going to split this up into "Divisions". All division leaders will be chosen by me, however, they can choose people they want in their division (ill review the choices after).

Division 1: Level 78 Kyogre "Blue Team" (Rain team using this)
Division 2: Level 78 Groudon "Red Team" (Sun team using this)
Division 3: Kyogrette "Purple Team" (Rain team using this)
Division 4: Groudonino "Pink Team" (Sun team using this)
Division 5: Abomasnow "White Team" (Standard Hail team)
Division 6: Tyranitar/Hippowdon "Brown Team" (Standard Sand team)
Division 7: Control "Clear Team" (Just a standard team.
All divisions are responsible for making a team using their pokemon AND FINDING A DEFINATE COUNTER. I will start the thread and PM my leaders as soon as i can, as I am in class and leaving for my last match in a half-hour.

EDIT: Could DJD make a Rayquaza-lite that make all weather go permanantly? If so ill add a new team.

EDIT2: PM'd leaders.

 

[Dane]

If you use that method, I'd also like to suggest a seventh division:

Division 7: Control

Now, when I say control, I don't mean stall or anything. I'm talking in scientific terms, the "Control Team" would be the team with no weather inducing abilities. This is to make sure weather doesn't centralize the meta into forcing a weather user onto each team.

I'd also like to suggest finding a multitude of counters, not just find one and call it a day. Find out how used those counters are, how usable they are if not OU, and if they can do anything outside of countering that specific weather team.