Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)

[eric the espeon]

I suppose stuff like Vaporeon or Suicune could take fire moves in the sun, but even they will not shrug off those with Specs forever. Also my Specs Moltres did 110% to a Vaporeon with Solar Beam so with prediction even these will not last.

IMO from the few tests i have done so far perma sun would not be totally broken but it would greatly change the metagame, every team would be required to have one of the few Pokemon that can take STAB Specs Fire Blasts in the sun from >120 base Sp. attack, and one to take on Chlorophyll Grasses.
If the number of turns is lowered to 5, 8 or even 10 it would make a big difference as you could play for time and stall out the sun. the sun player would have to keep their Drought Pokemon alive and sweep before the sun ran out.

I have not tested rain yet, but it will be fun.

Note there are all preliminary findings i have NOT done enough battles to be sure about this.


And LOL at 2401% damage to Syclant.....

 

[Lil Ant]

Sun would probably be the least thing to be worried about. Just send in Kyogre once Heatran enters, or send in a Special Based Tyranitar it really isn't that hard. Weather doesn't mean offensive. I never used an offensive Ubers team, i always used defensive. But, in OU it's a whole other ball game.

 

[Luck]

The problem how do you determine a successful test or failed test?

 

[Darkflagrance]

Sun-boosted fire attacks are great!
My scarfran used Overheat against a moltres and it did 77% :D!
I went against Eric's fire team and it pretty much beat me once my heatran died. Eric himself used a Kingdra, which worked excellently against fire attacks.

So in order to defend yourself against fire attacks use:
Flash Fire (which is only viably on heatran)
Walls that resist fire (Snorlax, special side only)
4x Fire resist (Kingdra)

I'm betting sweepers that resist fire can switch in once or twice. Basically auto-sun forces you to use heatran/kingdra to reliably wall fire attacks. Otherwise, the game is forced into offensive mode, I don't see what's going to stall your fires with those three out of the way. Maybe Bulky Dragonite or Mence, but they'll be done after an Ice attack or two.

/end quick and early post

You could switch in Ninetales and attempt Confuse Ray...

 

[latinoheat]

in the next cap project are you gonna have a concept vote with the weather idea as an option, or are we going straight into weather pokemon. I think more people then you would think don't want to start a weather based pokemon( most likely another fire) straight after woodman, i know mekkah and i are atleast two.

 

[Dane]

in the next cap project are you gonna have a concept vote with the weather idea as an option, or are we going straight into weather pokemon. I think more people then you would think don't want to start a weather based pokemon( most likely another fire) straight after woodman, i know mekkah and i are atleast two.

I agree. I'd personally rather have the "Super Spinner" be next and weather afterwards.

 

[eric the espeon]

TBH I just want an electric/<anything not Water, Flying or Steel> type next... I dont really care how it functions, I am sure that CaP will not make it useless.

But we should still test out Auto Weathers brokeness or lack of it.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I have mixed feelings about the next project, and how we handle it.

At the time the Weather Project was proposed, there was a great deal of energy on the Fire/Grass pokemon to add a weather ability. Whether it would have actually won or not, is debatable. Despite the fact that I initiated the Greenhouse ability, I realized it was probably not the right way to introduce auto-weather into the metagame. But, there was the sticky problem that the community was clearly voicing massive amounts of interest in auto-weather.

The only way I could see to remove Greenhouse from the current project -- was to promise that weather would be our very next project. Considering that many in the community were prepared to put weather on an OU-powered Fire/Grass poke; it seemed the only fair "trade" was to do a full dedicated weather project next. The weather concept had not been fully fleshed out, and to throw it on our Fire/Grass poke, was just too premature. But, with a little preparation, we could make a dedicated project and possibly do a dual-project at the same time.

I also like the concept of a new rapid spinner. And in the process thread, we have instituted the Concept Poll at the beginning of new projects. Based on that, it seems reasonable that we should have a concept poll to determine the next project. But, that is in conflict with the earlier commitment to do a weather project next.

Basically, weather was ripped from the current project -- arguably unfairly -- when it stood a very good chance of winning. Even if people don't think it would have won, everyone must agree it was a definite possibility. Just the possibility of it winning was alarming to many people; so much so, that they voted to do weather next. Not because they actually wanted weather, but just to get it removed from the current list of options. Now that we are past the immediate threat, I think there are many people in the community that would gladly continue to push weather further -- potentially indefinitely.

That's not fair to those that were on the verge of seeing weather implemented on the current poke. They were enticed by stories of a massive dedicated Weather Project. A project whose result would be better than having auto-weather on the Fire/Grass poke. If we push weather off further, then it would appear to be a "bait-and-switch" by those that simply do not want auto-weather at all.

I'm not opposed to a poll. If enough people are interested in weather, then it will win. But, if it doesn't win -- then we potentially have yet another polling controversy on our hands. We already had people contest the entire ability poll as a result of yanking Greenhouse off the poll midway through the voting. If we then delay a project that was already committed as a condition of removing that option --- good grief.... I really don't want that headache.

I'm interested to hear feedback on the fairness issues here. Please don't give me opinions on whether you want weather or not. I'm really not concerned with my personal desire regarding weather, nor do I care to hear yours. We need to decide what is fair and reasonable, in light of what has already happened.

 

[Mekkah]

We can have a vote about what comes next, like what we would have done anyway. I'd like to note that:

Basically, weather was ripped from the current project -- arguably unfairly -- when it stood a very good chance of winning.

The chance was indeed there, but those who opposed weather were quick to vote two other abilities so that in the end Rock Head/Battle Armor won by a solid margin (10~20 or so, I know I counted).

 

[Luck]

What would be fair ?Vote on it.Make a thread what should be the focus our next cap project

1.Spinner
2.Weather project
3.Other-with it explained of what your other is

That all i can say without going into why weather should be tested discussion.That is the fairest way.Beside they may be away the merge spinner with weather project together killing two birds with one stone.

 

[Hyra]

Doug... sure the promise is great and all, but what if not everyone wants to do weather? A concept poll puts weather on the table and then anything else people want to do. This thread is a little biased in discussion, since a very small percentage of voters actually post here. If there is as much support for weather as you say, it will win the concept poll. If it doesn't win the concept poll, there is less support for it than you thought.

 

[megalolz]

Well i would love an auto rain or auto sun. As long as they have around 470-480 BST because there isn't much rain teams and sun teams. I know things like kingdra are nearly unstoppable with rain dance in affect, but like every thing it has a weakness a scarfed or sturdy salamence can take it out.

 

[X-Act]

I just thought of something random, about the concept spinner thing. How about it has an ability that has an auto Rapid Spin effect whenever the Pokemon switches in?

 

[eric the espeon]

I just thought of something random, about the concept spinner thing. How about it has an ability that has an auto Rapid Spin effect whenever the Pokemon switches in?

In the first CaP it had some support (it was called "shiver", search for it in the old threads for more info) it was discussed in GREAT detail in the end I convinced everyone it would change the metagame far too much.

PLEASE do not bring this up again, I really don't have time right now to convince everyone again.

 

[Jace the Mind Sculptor]

Im not sure of this is is allowed in the CAP project, but what about changing the move 'Defog' to remove entry hazards from the opponent's side of the field instead of your own. I think that with this change, it would becoma a sort of happy medium you can say.

With Defog being a more competitive move now, the future Weather Project can even support a third 'Fog" weather producer. Since defog would remove evasion factors, fog, and entry hazards, having a fog weather inducer would be very interesting and still balanced.

It seems like Defog is just wasted potential. Again, Im not sure if the CAP project supports the idea of changing current existing moves, but I really think that this idea will ultimately change the metagame for a good thing.

 

[X-Act]

In the first CaP it had some support (it was called "shiver", search for it in the old threads for more info) it was discussed in GREAT detail in the end I convinced everyone it would change the metagame far too much.

PLEASE do not bring this up again, I really don't have time right now to convince everyone again.

Sorry, I didn't know that.

 

[eric the espeon]

its ok, it just took me ages to get the idea out of popularity, Imagine Syclant with a totally broken ability....

I can remember a bit of my arguement... it was something like
think of the good abilitys for OU Pokemon, Intimidate (a very solid ability), Pure power (without it the Pokemon that have it would be UU or worse), Shadow Tag (its what makes Wobby near Uber) they are all attacks (Growl, Sword Dance, Mean Look) and yet how many Pokemon in OU can use these attacks? with the exception of SD almost none, and Pure Power makes those pokemon MUCH stronger.
Now how sought after is the affect of rapid spin? in ability form it would be unblockable as well.

 

[Notty]

Rapid Spin-on-entry would work, I think, as long as you give it a downside.

For instance...

"Takes extra (2x) damage from hazard entries, but removes them on entry."

Obviously, it preferably would be Rock resistant, or at the very least, not Rock weak, but I think it would tone down the ability to make it somewhat balanced.

 

[Instinctive]

Rapid Spin-on-entry would work, I think, as long as you give it a downside.

For instance...

"Takes extra (2x) damage from hazard entries, but removes them on entry."

Obviously, it preferably would be Rock resistant, or at the very least, not Rock weak, but I think it would tone down the ability to make it somewhat balanced.

Great idea I would definitely support that.

 

[Mekkah]

I just thought of something random, about the concept spinner thing. How about it has an ability that has an auto Rapid Spin effect whenever the Pokemon switches in?

I'd love to use it, but only because it's kind of infinitely better than the already-dubbed-broken Scrappyspin. You can now block it with Ghosts, except it has to be already in for that to happen, which won't be the case. For trade, you now don't have to waste a moveslot, and you can attack the first turn you're in.

I don't think theorymon is enough to prove it broken, but I do think eric has a good case against it and that we'd need something better.

 

[latinoheat]

hate the auto rapid spin trait, the only way i would want something like that if its traits automatically removes only one type of spikes or even one layer of each or something similar.

"Takes extra (2x) damage from hazard entries, but removes them on entry."

like this idea as well.


Or even a trio each only able to remove one type(all able to rapid spin), then again the stealth rock version would have to be toned down in comparision.
There is no harm just adding weather pokemon to a concept poll, if so many people wanted it so badly it would win.

This might be a bit far but i could also see a move thats just a screen, that blocks all entry hazard damage for a number of turns.

 

[Captain]

I love Notty's idea! It sounds better than the trio idea and it actually weakens the SR as much as spikes if not a little more since it'll be taking the same amount of damage from one layer of either (yay, antiSRspam).

Oh and I think Eric wanted this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33220&highlight=shiver&page=2

It's when DJD brought up shiver for the first time. I read the thread or at least skimmed it and feel unconvinced but I thought I'd post it anyway.

 

[eric the espeon]

Thanks Captain, but it would be useful to note that though DJD dropped the idea, iirc someone else brought it back nearer the ability poll where it enjoyed greater popularity.

anyway quoting some of the most relivent info:

An automatic rapid spin-like ability would not be broken as you suggest. It would be an ability that automatically invokes the effect of a move already in the game. This is no different than Intimidate, Sandstream, Arena Trap, Huge Power and TONS of other abilities in the game. All those abilities are basically the automatic invocation of a move -- Growl, Sandstorm, Mean Look, and Howl, respectively.

I disagree rapid spin is blockable but a auto spin ability is not, also look at the number of Pokemon that use Growl, Sandstorm, Howl, and Mean Look, the first 3 are NEVER used (except howl arcanine) and mean look is only viable on one Pokemon (Umbreon) but the ablitys that have the same effects are considered some of the best in the game.

That is a very good point, and well-argued. The automatic invocation of an NU move is very different than the automatic invocation of an OU move. I'm dropping the Shiver idea, just on lack of popularity. Your well-reasoned argument makes it easier for me to forget the whole thing.

I am against any auto rapid spin ability, it is my opinion that entry hazards are not broken or overpowered, in fact I believe they are useful checks against Focus Sash, any way that means you can remove possibly 6 turns of set-up with out any way to stop it is a very bad idea IMO, even having the Pokemon take 2x damage would not come close to compensating.

Making a rapid spin of a different type that can still be blocked is not so much of a problem as stall teams would still have the option of carrying 2 spin blockers.

 

[Captain]

How about it just loses one layer of spikes/SR/Toxic Spikes (yes, I'm aware maximum layers for SR is 1)? That way the "losing 6 turns of setup" while being unblockable thing does not happen. It still helps focus sash though. Is it possible for all pokemon on your team to take 1 HP damage or some ridiculously low amount of damage whenever you activate the ability? Then the focus sash fear would be eliminated.

 

[eric the espeon]

How about it just loses one layer of spikes/SR/Toxic Spikes (yes, I'm aware maximum layers for SR is 1)? That way the "losing 6 turns of setup" while being unblockable thing does not happen. It still helps focus sash though. Is it possible for all pokemon on your team to take 1 HP damage or some ridiculously low amount of damage whenever you activate the ability? Then the focus sash fear would be eliminated.

That is an improvement and could be fine on a Pokemon with weakish defences if it still took damage switching in, I like the do 1 damage to the team idea from a competitive angle, but don't see how it would fit flavorwise.

I don't really see why we need to weaken Entry Hazards, its not like they really break the game they just make one type of team possible (Full Stall) and help some sweepers to achieve KOs.