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Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)
- Thread starter Luck
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Right to test if Permanent Auto weather would be broken we should test allowing low level Groudon and Kyorge into OU. They should be low enough to to be around as powerful statwise as Abomnasnow.
X-Act do you have some clever way to adjust your stat ratings so that we can find the perfect level? If not we can approximate it.
DougJustDoug would it be possible to allow only Kyorge and Groudon below a specific level on ladder? If not we would have to allow all and do it by trust.
This is the most simple way to test it as far as I can see.
If it turns out to be ether broken or to alter the metagame dramaticly we would have to use limited turn weather changers for the next CaP.
What do you all think of this?
X-Act do you have some clever way to adjust your stat ratings so that we can find the perfect level? If not we can approximate it.
DougJustDoug would it be possible to allow only Kyorge and Groudon below a specific level on ladder? If not we would have to allow all and do it by trust.
This is the most simple way to test it as far as I can see.
If it turns out to be ether broken or to alter the metagame dramaticly we would have to use limited turn weather changers for the next CaP.
What do you all think of this?
I REALLY like this idea. Personally, I'm scared of introducing more auto-weather into the game. I am excited about the opportunity to use new battle strategies. But, I'm worried that it could make the entire metagame unrecognizable to most existing players. This could be a great yardstick to determine how much weather affects the game, without going through the whole process of making a pokemon.
It will take good players to get an accurate read on the playtesting results. I don't want a bunch of noobs posting, "Yeah, I tried it and it worked great!" I really want to get opinions from established battlers on this, backed up with battle logs.
What do other's think about this? Who is willing to be part of the playtesting team? Any suggestions on the appropriate levels for Groudon and Kyogre? Do movepools need to be restricted as well?
It will take good players to get an accurate read on the playtesting results. I don't want a bunch of noobs posting, "Yeah, I tried it and it worked great!" I really want to get opinions from established battlers on this, backed up with battle logs.
What do other's think about this? Who is willing to be part of the playtesting team? Any suggestions on the appropriate levels for Groudon and Kyogre? Do movepools need to be restricted as well?
I wanna be a playtester!
I would remove only Water Spout from Kyorge, and leave the rest. I don't think we will give our Pokemon double STAB+Massive base power.
Abomasnow: Overall Rating 218 (Good)
Unadjusted Groudon: Overall Rating 1503 (Exaggerated)
Unadjusted Kyogre: Overall Rating 1503 (Exaggerated)
By removing 30 points from each of Groudon's stats, a spread of:
70 / 120 / 110 / 70 / 60 / 60
Obtains an Overall Rating of 208 (Average).
He has a rank 2 Physical sweepiness and a rank 2 physical tankiness. However, he has a -1 rank special sweepiness and an even worse -2 rank special tankiness.
By removing 30 points from each of Kyogre's stats, a spread of:
70 / 70 / 60 / 120 / 110 / 60
Obtains an Overall Rating of 209 (Average).
He has a rank 2 Special sweepiness and a rank 2 special tankiness. However, he has a -1 rank physical sweepiness and an even worse -2 rank physical tankiness.
By using these numbers, and approximating based on HP, I'm getting an approximate level of 82.
At level 82, Groudon would have the same HP as a Pokemon with Base 70 HP who is at level 100. This isn't exact, however, because Base 60 Speed Pokemon would have 156, whereas he has 178. He's close on defense though, as Base 110 Defense would be 256, and he has 260. His special defense is a little high as well, being at 178 as opposed to a standard Base 60's 156. Seems as though the higher the base stat, the closer it is to a normal Pokemon's stat at max level (and lower the base stat, the further the discrepency).
This means we either lower the level, or allow it to be better than Abomasnow. I personally vote for the former.
Therefore, if we want it's lower stats to be on par, I recommend a Maximum Level of 72.
This would make it worse than Abomasnow, but it's typing and moveset may counteract that.
I'm personally leaning towards 75.Dane said:
Remember that level itself is a direct factor in damage, so with reduced levels their damage will be worse than the raw attack/special attack stat indicates. A level 80 Groudon with 252 evs/+atk nature will have 352 listed attack, but only does damage equivalent to a L100 Pokemon with ~283 attack.
I do not see a lot of harm in taking any of these, despite slight differences. The focus is obviously on the weather.
That said, I do not think lowered level Groudon and Kyogre quite fit with the CAP metagame. Our purpose is to add new Pokemon to an existing Pokemon that add variety by their mere presence. Groudon and Kyogre, even at lower levels, remain the same Pokemon, just altered versions. I'd love to test them, but I'm not quite sure if I want to see them on the field along with Revenankh and Syclant.
That said, I do not think lowered level Groudon and Kyogre quite fit with the CAP metagame. Our purpose is to add new Pokemon to an existing Pokemon that add variety by their mere presence. Groudon and Kyogre, even at lower levels, remain the same Pokemon, just altered versions. I'd love to test them, but I'm not quite sure if I want to see them on the field along with Revenankh and Syclant.
It would be only for a test, they would be removed as soon as the testing period is over.
anyway nice stuff Dane have you taken this into account?
I would like X-Act to have a look at this before picking a level as he is kinda the resident math genius.
DJD you have not answed this question
anyway nice stuff Dane have you taken this into account?
IMO we should not make them weaker than Abomnasnow.
I would like X-Act to have a look at this before picking a level as he is kinda the resident math genius.
DJD you have not answed this question
This would be strictly temporary on the server. I don't think I would alter the ladder. We would just coordinate the matches amongst the testing team.
I don't consider this to be a conclusive test of the viability of new weather pokemon in the CAP metagame. But, it may indicate if our assumptions about the weather are horribly wrong. If a level 72 Groudon allows teams to completely sweep everything in sight, then we need to seriously adjust our expectations on how we structure new weather pokemon. If that happens, we can do one of several things:
I'm not really predicting anything here. I don't think the theorymon doomsayers are correct. But, I will admit that I am scared shitless if they are. This little "preview test" is just a way to stop theorymon and use real-world testing to put a stake in the ground on the weather-ability-in-OU question.
Plus it could be a fun diversion on the server, while we wait for the new Fire/Grass poke to finish up.
I don't consider this to be a conclusive test of the viability of new weather pokemon in the CAP metagame. But, it may indicate if our assumptions about the weather are horribly wrong. If a level 72 Groudon allows teams to completely sweep everything in sight, then we need to seriously adjust our expectations on how we structure new weather pokemon. If that happens, we can do one of several things:
1) Make a lower-powered version of Groudon and Kyogre and test that. I can easily implement a Groudino and Kyogrette with 5-turn limits on their abilities. We run another round of playtesting and see if anything materially changes.
2) Further lower the levels of the Groudon and Kyogre and test that. I doubt that would change much, but it might. If the first test allows teams to execute dominating sweeps, then it's likely the perma-weather as the main culprit.
3) Scrap the whole auto-weather idea entirely.
4) Consider a Weather Project not based on auto-weather abilities, but rather make more powerful weather-inducing moves. For example, make a move like Rain Dance that does a little damage -- say 40 BP. Would this be enough to promote more weather strategies? I don't know. I guarantee if we make a rain-inducing Surf (95 BP), then people will carry the move and use it. So, somewhere between 0 BP (what we have today) and 95 BP, is a happy medium. This sort of thing might be an option if outright weather abilities are clearly overpowered.
2) Further lower the levels of the Groudon and Kyogre and test that. I doubt that would change much, but it might. If the first test allows teams to execute dominating sweeps, then it's likely the perma-weather as the main culprit.
3) Scrap the whole auto-weather idea entirely.
4) Consider a Weather Project not based on auto-weather abilities, but rather make more powerful weather-inducing moves. For example, make a move like Rain Dance that does a little damage -- say 40 BP. Would this be enough to promote more weather strategies? I don't know. I guarantee if we make a rain-inducing Surf (95 BP), then people will carry the move and use it. So, somewhere between 0 BP (what we have today) and 95 BP, is a happy medium. This sort of thing might be an option if outright weather abilities are clearly overpowered.
I'm not really predicting anything here. I don't think the theorymon doomsayers are correct. But, I will admit that I am scared shitless if they are. This little "preview test" is just a way to stop theorymon and use real-world testing to put a stake in the ground on the weather-ability-in-OU question.
Plus it could be a fun diversion on the server, while we wait for the new Fire/Grass poke to finish up.
I didn't, actually. Was hoping someone else would come in and confirm whether it was true or not.
Sunny Day and Rain Dance are so much more powerful than Hailstorm, Abomasnow HAS to be a better Pokemon.
Either way, if even an underpowered Level 72-82 Groudon/Kyogre break the game, as Doug said, we'd basically have to completely gimp our weather Pokemon's stats, or make the ability weaker.
mm i think i saw it somewhere... ah here we go http://www.serebii.net/games/damage.shtml
look at the bottom.
I don't know if shoddy implements this though.
mmm I know you don't want to mess with the ladder but if only testers use it they could over prepare for them, I could make them allowed in MTs for a wider range of testing.
Another idea if 5 turn weather is too strong, lower the number of turns to 4 or even 3.
And maybe everlasting weather moves?
But realistically do you think CaP will make a worse Pokemon than Abomnasnow? Better to make the test a bit too strong IMO.
Ah, I see. I don't feel like calculating out the actual level needed though, perhaps someone who's already more familiar with it can?
I doubt this will be needed in the long run.
Rank-wise, yes. Sun/Rain itself, plus it's potential movepool, would offset this. Remember, these Pokemon would be team players, not loners. Sun/Rain impact a team MUCH more than Hail does.
mmm maybe X-Act?
I hope we do make the final pokeys 'snow weak but the test should be a bit stronger than we expect our pokes to be.
You can multiple a Pokemon's [special] attack stat by (level+2)/102 to approxiate the stat of a L100 Pokemon who does similar damage. Even level/100 would work fine for approximation purposes, really, but I'm too brain-fried from exams to do any more extensive calculations.
That said, I don't think it's too important to pin down exactly what stat ratings to test lower-level Groudon/Kyogre at since the stat ratings for the actual Create-a-Pokemon weather-changers shouldn't be set until after their typings are decided. Hypothetically, a Fire/Dragon with Drought would be much more powerful than a pure Grass with Drought even with the same stats, for instance. Anything around 70-85 level range should be sufficient to test whether the Drought/Drizzle abilities break the metagame when attached to middling stats, I'd think.
That said, I don't think it's too important to pin down exactly what stat ratings to test lower-level Groudon/Kyogre at since the stat ratings for the actual Create-a-Pokemon weather-changers shouldn't be set until after their typings are decided. Hypothetically, a Fire/Dragon with Drought would be much more powerful than a pure Grass with Drought even with the same stats, for instance. Anything around 70-85 level range should be sufficient to test whether the Drought/Drizzle abilities break the metagame when attached to middling stats, I'd think.
I like the idea of Kyogre and Groudon losing 25-30 points, and making it 5-7 turn abilities. Call them Groudino and Kyogrette. Make any necessary changes to be weaker. Make new sprites, and put metal-mewtwo esque armor on them. Maybe they were Team Aqua and Magma's projects. Ha.
Sounds fun to me, anyway. =P
Sounds fun to me, anyway. =P
:) Probably too much effort for a few test battles, unless we have some really bored spriters and programmers lying around somewhere.
No, I'll just program in a couple new abilities and change the names. Groudino and Kyogrette will simply be playtesting tools. I'll delete them when we are done.
Sorry, I missed this until now.
Right now, I don't have a way of how to find the right level, but I can work it out rather quickly I think.
In fact, I just did it right now quickly. :)
Level 77 would be the ideal level. It would bring Groudon and Kyogre to about Abomasnow's level as regards stats ratings. However, keep in mind that EVs at lower level are less useful than at Level 100. Increasing the level to Level 78 would compensate for this.
So I'd suggest Level 78 Groudon and Kyogre.
I'd also suggest that the movepool be left unchanged. With overall lower attacking stats, the damage dealt is automatically lower also, so we don't need to change movepools.
Right now, I don't have a way of how to find the right level, but I can work it out rather quickly I think.
In fact, I just did it right now quickly. :)
Level 77 would be the ideal level. It would bring Groudon and Kyogre to about Abomasnow's level as regards stats ratings. However, keep in mind that EVs at lower level are less useful than at Level 100. Increasing the level to Level 78 would compensate for this.
So I'd suggest Level 78 Groudon and Kyogre.
I'd also suggest that the movepool be left unchanged. With overall lower attacking stats, the damage dealt is automatically lower also, so we don't need to change movepools.
Not even remove Water Spout from Kyorge? Its a special case I think really.
LAs a decent battler, he could go on the team.
How are we going to select the testing team?
Should they be allowed in MTs?
At Level 78, Kyogre's Speed would be quite poor, so I don't think removing Water Spout, or indeed any attack, is necessary.
The method I used is pretty simple. I just generated all stats from Level 1 to Level 100, and calculated the base stats that would correspond to those stats if they were Level 100. The Level 77 one had the nearest Stat rating to that of Abomasnow. That's all I did.
The method I used is pretty simple. I just generated all stats from Level 1 to Level 100, and calculated the base stats that would correspond to those stats if they were Level 100. The Level 77 one had the nearest Stat rating to that of Abomasnow. That's all I did.
Right ok.
78 it is unless someone can think of a problem.
How are we picking the testing team? Just letting people volunteer?
Edit: unofficial testing has begun, I made a sun team and played a few people. results so far are that you pretty much need a Heatran to survive a sun team, or to beat it down very, very fast.
78 it is unless someone can think of a problem.
that could work, we could make some of the TOs part of the testing team and they could report on their MTs as well as normal testing matches.
How are we picking the testing team? Just letting people volunteer?
Edit: unofficial testing has begun, I made a sun team and played a few people. results so far are that you pretty much need a Heatran to survive a sun team, or to beat it down very, very fast.
Sun-boosted fire attacks are great!
My scarfran used Overheat against a moltres and it did 77% :D!
I went against Eric's fire team and it pretty much beat me once my heatran died. Eric himself used a Kingdra, which worked excellently against fire attacks.
So in order to defend yourself against fire attacks use:
Flash Fire (which is only viably on heatran)
Walls that resist fire (Snorlax, special side only)
4x Fire resist (Kingdra)
I'm betting sweepers that resist fire can switch in once or twice. Basically auto-sun forces you to use heatran/kingdra to reliably wall fire attacks. Otherwise, the game is forced into offensive mode, I don't see what's going to stall your fires with those three out of the way. Maybe Bulky Dragonite or Mence, but they'll be done after an Ice attack or two.
/end quick and early post
My scarfran used Overheat against a moltres and it did 77% :D!
I went against Eric's fire team and it pretty much beat me once my heatran died. Eric himself used a Kingdra, which worked excellently against fire attacks.
So in order to defend yourself against fire attacks use:
Flash Fire (which is only viably on heatran)
Walls that resist fire (Snorlax, special side only)
4x Fire resist (Kingdra)
I'm betting sweepers that resist fire can switch in once or twice. Basically auto-sun forces you to use heatran/kingdra to reliably wall fire attacks. Otherwise, the game is forced into offensive mode, I don't see what's going to stall your fires with those three out of the way. Maybe Bulky Dragonite or Mence, but they'll be done after an Ice attack or two.
/end quick and early post
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