Other Weather Testing on the CAP Server

[Stall]

Alright, so I finally tested Hail vs Rain, and the results shocked me. While both players played well, Abomasnow can come in on Kyogre with absolutely no risk to itself, and so Rain was never in play for more than a turn.

edit: Does Kyogre maybe have to fit HP Fire into it's moveset?

Rules: Evasion Clause, Extended Game, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Species Clause, Timed Battle
Stalling sent out Abomasnow (lvl 100 Abomasnow ?).
tsukikage sent out Kyogre (lvl 78 Kyogre).
Kyogre's Wet Spell caused a storm!
Rain began to fall!
Abomasnow's Snow Warning whipped up a hailstorm!
The rain stopped.
Hail began to fall!
tsukikage switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's intimidate cut Abomasnow's attack!
Abomasnow used Wood Hammer.
It's not very effective...
Salamence lost 8% of its health.
Abomasnow was hit by recoil!
Abomasnow lost 2% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Salamence is pelted by hail!
Salamence lost 6% of its health.
Abomasnow's leftovers restored its health a little!
Abomasnow restored 6% of its health.
---
Abomasnow used Protect.
Abomasnow protected itself!
Salamence used Flamethrower.
Abomasnow protected itself!
The hail continues to fall.
Salamence is pelted by hail!
Salamence lost 6% of its health.
---
Stalling switched in Tentacruel (lvl 100 Tentacruel ?).
Salamence used Flamethrower.
It's not very effective...
Tentacruel lost 14% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Salamence is pelted by hail!
Salamence lost 6% of its health.
Tentacruel is pelted by hail!
Tentacruel lost 6% of its health.
Tentacruel's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tentacruel restored 6% of its health.
---
tsukikage switched in Kyogre (lvl 78 Kyogre).
Kyogre's Wet Spell caused a storm!
The hail stopped.
Rain began to fall!
Tentacruel used Toxic Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The rain continues to fall.
Tentacruel's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tentacruel restored 6% of its health.
---
Stalling switched in Abomasnow (lvl 100 Abomasnow ?).
Abomasnow's Snow Warning whipped up a hailstorm!
The rain stopped.
Hail began to fall!
Kyogre used Thunder.
It's not very effective...
Abomasnow lost 9% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Kyogre is pelted by hail!
Kyogre lost 6% of its health.
Abomasnow's leftovers restored its health a little!
Abomasnow restored 6% of its health.
---
tsukikage switched in Togekiss (lvl 100 Togekiss ?).
Abomasnow used Leech Seed.
Togekiss was seeded!
The hail continues to fall.
Togekiss is pelted by hail!
Togekiss lost 6% of its health.
Togekiss's leftovers restored its health a little!
Togekiss restored 6% of its health.
Togekiss's health was sapped by leech seed!
Togekiss lost 12% of its health.
Abomasnow regained health!
Abomasnow restored 12% of its health.
---
Stalling switched in Tentacruel (lvl 100 Tentacruel ?).
Togekiss used Air Slash.
Togekiss's attack missed!
The hail continues to fall.
Tentacruel is pelted by hail!
Tentacruel lost 6% of its health.
Togekiss is pelted by hail!
Togekiss lost 6% of its health.
Tentacruel's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tentacruel restored 6% of its health.
Togekiss's leftovers restored its health a little!
Togekiss restored 6% of its health.
Togekiss's health was sapped by leech seed!
Togekiss lost 12% of its health.
Tentacruel regained health!
Tentacruel restored 13% of its health.
---
Tentacruel used Toxic Spikes.
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Togekiss used Air Slash.
Tentacruel lost 20% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Tentacruel is pelted by hail!
Tentacruel lost 6% of its health.
Togekiss is pelted by hail!
Togekiss lost 6% of its health.
Tentacruel's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tentacruel restored 6% of its health.
Togekiss's leftovers restored its health a little!
Togekiss restored 6% of its health.
Togekiss's health was sapped by leech seed!
Togekiss lost 12% of its health.
Tentacruel regained health!
Tentacruel restored 13% of its health.
---
Tentacruel used Blizzard.
It's super effective!
Togekiss lost 29% of its health.
Togekiss used Air Slash.
Tentacruel lost 20% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Tentacruel is pelted by hail!
Tentacruel lost 6% of its health.
Togekiss is pelted by hail!
Togekiss lost 6% of its health.
Tentacruel's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tentacruel restored 6% of its health.
Togekiss's leftovers restored its health a little!
Togekiss restored 6% of its health.
Togekiss's health was sapped by leech seed!
Togekiss lost 12% of its health.
Tentacruel regained health!
Tentacruel restored 13% of its health.
---
Tentacruel used Blizzard.
It's super effective!
Togekiss lost 29% of its health.
tsukikage's Togekiss fainted.
The hail continues to fall.
Tentacruel is pelted by hail!
Tentacruel lost 6% of its health.
Tentacruel's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tentacruel restored 6% of its health.
---
tsukikage switched in Kyogre (lvl 78 Kyogre).
Kyogre's Wet Spell caused a storm!
The hail stopped.
Rain began to fall!
Kyogre was badly poisoned!
Kyogre was badly poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Stalling switched in Abomasnow (lvl 100 Abomasnow ?).
Abomasnow's Snow Warning whipped up a hailstorm!
The rain stopped.
Hail began to fall!
Kyogre used Thunder.
It's not very effective...
Abomasnow lost 10% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Kyogre is pelted by hail!
Kyogre lost 6% of its health.
Kyogre is hurt by poison!
Kyogre lost 6% of its health.
Abomasnow's leftovers restored its health a little!
Abomasnow restored 6% of its health.
---
tsukikage switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's intimidate cut Abomasnow's attack!
Abomasnow used Blizzard.
It's super effective!
Salamence lost 217% of its health.
tsukikage's Salamence fainted.
The hail continues to fall.
Abomasnow's leftovers restored its health a little!
Abomasnow restored 6% of its health.
---
tsukikage switched in Kingdra (lvl 100 Kingdra ?).
Kingdra was badly poisoned!
Kingdra was badly poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Abomasnow used Protect.
Abomasnow protected itself!
Kingdra used Waterfall.
Abomasnow protected itself!
The hail continues to fall.
Kingdra is pelted by hail!
Kingdra lost 6% of its health.
Kingdra is hurt by poison!
Kingdra lost 6% of its health.
---
Stalling switched in Walrein (lvl 100 Walrein ?).
Kingdra used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Walrein lost 14% of its health.
Kingdra lost 10% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Kingdra is pelted by hail!
Kingdra lost 6% of its health.
Walrein absorbed the hail!
Walrein restored 6% of its health.
Kingdra is hurt by poison!
Kingdra lost 12% of its health.
Walrein's leftovers restored its health a little!
Walrein restored 6% of its health.
---
tsukikage switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Kabutops was badly poisoned!
Kabutops was badly poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Walrein used Substitute.
Walrein lost 25% of its health.
Walrein made a substitute!
The hail continues to fall.
Kabutops is pelted by hail!
Kabutops lost 6% of its health.
Walrein absorbed the hail!
Walrein restored 6% of its health.
Kabutops is hurt by poison!
Kabutops lost 6% of its health.
Walrein's leftovers restored its health a little!
Walrein restored 6% of its health.
---
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Walrein!
Walrein's substitute faded!
Walrein used Blizzard.
It's not very effective...
Kabutops lost 32% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Kabutops is pelted by hail!
Kabutops lost 6% of its health.
Walrein absorbed the hail!
Walrein restored 6% of its health.
Kabutops is hurt by poison!
Kabutops lost 12% of its health.
Walrein's leftovers restored its health a little!
Walrein restored 6% of its health.
---
Walrein used Protect.
Walrein protected itself!
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
Kabutops's attack missed!
The hail continues to fall.
Kabutops is pelted by hail!
Kabutops lost 6% of its health.
Walrein absorbed the hail!
Walrein restored 6% of its health.
Kabutops is hurt by poison!
Kabutops lost 19% of its health.
---
Stalling switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
Kabutops's attack missed!
The hail continues to fall.
Kabutops is pelted by hail!
Kabutops lost 6% of its health.
Gliscor is pelted by hail!
Gliscor lost 6% of its health.
Kabutops is hurt by poison!
Kabutops lost 25% of its health.
tsukikage's Kabutops fainted.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
tsukikage switched in Kyogre (lvl 78 Kyogre).
Kyogre's Wet Spell caused a storm!
The hail stopped.
Rain began to fall!
Stalling switched in Abomasnow (lvl 100 Abomasnow ?).
Abomasnow's Snow Warning whipped up a hailstorm!
The rain stopped.
Hail began to fall!
Kyogre used Ice Beam.
Abomasnow lost 16% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Kyogre is pelted by hail!
Kyogre lost 6% of its health.
Kyogre is hurt by poison!
Kyogre lost 6% of its health.
Abomasnow's leftovers restored its health a little!
Abomasnow restored 6% of its health.
---
Kyogre used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Abomasnow lost 12% of its health.
Abomasnow used Wood Hammer.
It's super effective!
Kyogre lost 117% of its health.
tsukikage's Kyogre fainted.
Abomasnow was hit by recoil!
Abomasnow lost 19% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Abomasnow's leftovers restored its health a little!
Abomasnow restored 6% of its health.
---
tsukikage switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Abomasnow used Blizzard.
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 32% of its health.
Forretress used Explosion.
Abomasnow lost 140% of its health.
Stalling's Abomasnow fainted.
tsukikage's Forretress fainted.
The hail continues to fall.
---
Stalling switched in Syclant (lvl 100 Syclant ?).
tsukikage switched in Kingdra (lvl 100 Kingdra ?).
tsukikage: Mind if I try my sand team after this?
Stalling: sure
Syclant used Blizzard.
Kingdra lost 78% of its health.
tsukikage's Kingdra fainted.
Stalling wins!
Stalling: should I post this log?
Stalling: if nothing else, it shows Kyogre can't touch Aboma...
tsukikage: Yeah

 

[Tsukikage]

Damage Calcs for HP Fire on Kyogre against standard lead Abomasnow

252 EVs/Positive nature = 54.17-63.54% 2HKO
136 EVs/Positive nature = 50-58.85% Minimum for 2HKO
0 EVs/Positive nature = 45.83-53.91% Chance of 2HKO, definate 3HKO
252 EVs/Neautral nature = 49.22-58.07% Almost a definate 2HKO
0 EVs/Neautral nature = 41.93-49.22% 2HKO with Stealth Rocks
0 EVs/Negative nature(?) = 37.76-44.53% 2HKO with Stealth Rocks

Why anyone would run a -Sp Atk Kyogre is beyond me, but HP Fire on a -Sp Atk Kyogre with 0 EVs at level 78, still 2HKOs Abomasnow with some SR support. Could HP Fire have found a new home on Kyogre?

 

[Stall]

I think that the inclusion of HP Fire is most definitively more than enough to completely swing the Hail/Rain match-up.

I would be willing to try again, though.

 

[Mekkah]

It's not like a 78 Kyogre has anything else to do besides making sure that its weather stays intact, and Hidden Power Fire helps that.

 

[tennisace]

Did you factor in Rain nerfing Fire?

 

[Hyra]

Did you factor in Rain nerfing Fire?

its for abomasnow switching into Kyogre, so its hailing, not raining.

 

[megalolz]

The 'lemon' nicknames make it annoying to read...

edit: I'm on Shoddy now if you want to test vs Hail...

Thanks, i thought that would be a good nickname for all of them :D. If anyone wants to help me out with a few sandstorm logs then by all means say now :D.

 

[Stall]

Thanks, i thought that would be a good nickname for all of them :D.

I would suggest you change it.

The purpose of this is to analyze logs, to check whether or not weather overcentralizes the metagame. This is rendered hard, if not impossible, when the Pokemon have been purposely named to be annoying to follow in a log.

 

[megalolz]

yeah, i have changed there nicknames. I had that team before this was thought up, but for the sake of the testing i have but them back to there normal names.

 

[Stall]

Now logging on. Hoping to find people willing to test vs my Hail team.

 

[DougJustDoug]

The next CAP project concept discussion will begin in a few days. I'd like to start gathering opinions from the weather testing team on what we have found over the past few weeks on the impact of weather on the CAP metagame. We have been doing "official" weather testing for two weeks, and there was general testing with lvl 78 Groudon and Kyogre for a week or so before that. Turn-limited weather has been implemented only over the last week.

I don't expect any sort of conclusive measurement, but I'd like to hear feedback. As always, I don't really want to hear theorymon from the general community. For those that have participated in the testing, or those that have taken the time to analyze the logs posted here, please give your impressions.

Here are a few key questions I would like to answer. Also, I would like to frame the context of each question to avoid getting inconclusive feedback. I'd like to set aside our preferences for a moment, and try to objectively evaluate the basic elements that affect the CAP metagame.

Is auto-rain and/or auto-sun inherently broken?

I'm not referring to perma-weather specifically -- simply the ability to start rain or sun automatically by switching in. Is that fundamental capability inherently broken? Is it broken for both rain and sun?


If auto-weather is NOT inherently broken -- what level of auto-weather allows for acceptable competitive play?

Can non-uber teams compete with auto-rain and/or auto-sun? Which OU pokes are particularly effective? How many BL or UU pokes can be helpful? Will auto-rain/sun force teams to use a limited pool of pokemon? Do turn-limitations make a difference? How much of a difference?


Is auto-weather still "familiar" to good players?

This is a really important question. In fact, it's the most important to me. Even if we can make a form of rain and/or sun that is competitive, will it be reasonably recognizable to the average SKILLED player?

Obviously it's not "familiar", in the traditional sense. Since rain/sun is not prevalent in the current metagame, weather is, by definition, "unfamiliar".

But is it any more unfamiliar than facing a Tail Glowing Ice/Bug with 121 speed? Is it more uncomfortable than a Fighting/Ghost with Bulk Up and ShedRest? Even though Syclant and Revenankh are very powerful, and possibly a little broken -- they are not "unfamiliar" to skilled players. Very quickly after being introduced to the pokemon, the average skilled player can effectively use them on their teams and defend against them. What about auto-weather?

On one hand, you may argue that people just aren't accustomed to the mechanics of rain and/or sun, and they will not be able to adjust easily to handle it without lots of practice and team rebuilding. On the other hand, you may argue that we deal with sand and hail all the time, as well as an occasional rain dance or trick room team. Perhaps skilled players can easily identify the situation and adapt their play accordingly. I can imagine making strong arguments either way here.

Please evaluate the familiarity question independently of the issue of weather being overpowered or overcentralizing. For example, suppose I showed you a new physical ground move that was 200 BP with 100% accuracy. Is that overpowered? Yes. Is it unfamiliar? No. It's a double-powered Earthquake. Any decent player could get to using and fleeing from that move pretty quickly. Familiarity doesn't make it any less broken, but at least people can reasonably understand the mechanics of the move. Is the same true for auto-rain and/or auto-sun?​

Think carefully about these questions before submitting feedback. I don't want to hear, "Hey, I love weather. Yeah it's different, but it's fun!" Nor do I want to hear the same old complaint, "Auto-weather is broken as hell. I hate it."

A little intelligently-reasoned commentary would be nice. Your feedback could significantly influence how we approach weather in the upcoming CAP concept discussion thread. Weather will not be the only concept discussed, and it may not be discussed much after other concepts are presented. I really don't know. But, if weather is on the table at all, I'd like to know what we are dealing with.

 

[Mr. Hadwick]

alright, I only tested a little, but I suppose I can shed some light on the subject. I'll mostly be talking about auto sun, as it's the type I tested.
I'm not actually that good of a player, but I would like to share some thoughts.

Is auto sun/ auto sun broken
As much as I hate this answer, I'm going to have to say yes, the benefits of sun and rain are much superior to hail and SS, so having the ability to just switch in and instantly receive double speed, or guard against all status, is rather broken. That being said, however, a skilled opponent should be able to predict what's coming in after the auto sun/rain, they can effectivly shut it down with either their own weather, or a counter to the benefited type. That's really just an assumption though >.<

If auto weather is NOT inherently broken -- what level of auto-weather is allows for acceptable competitive play?
Sure, non-ubers can totally play against an auto sun team, it may be slightly more difficult, but it may even be easier, if your team is built with some pokemon in mind.
-other auto weather: it's obvious, of course, sandstorm would work better against sun, as the boosted fire attacks won't do very much, and hail against rain, seeing as Abomasnow could come in on any rain dance sweeper (I'm not sure how much kindra's draco meteor or ice beam would do against it)

-Heatran and Garchomp, Heatran can counter most of the pokemon that benefit form sun. Garchomp of course garchomp has no surefire counters anyways, but the Grass and Fires of a sun team would even have trouble revenge killing it, therefore making you give up a pokemon that benefits from weather's spot for something that can deal with the ever present beast.

Is auto-weather still "familiar" to good players?
I have mixed feeling about this. Unlike syclant and revenankh, who are just pokemon, really good pokemon maybe, but still, they're just one part of a team. Auto sun and rain are a whole new concept of a team, working to bring out pokemon with the speed of a choice scarf, and no downsides to it, is rather scary. But it's not like the metagame hasn't had new monsters added before, Garchomp is a prime example, I don't know any team (except maybe mine >.>) that doesn't have some way to counter a garchomp of some sort. So this inclusion may force people to pack a new counter, but I'm pretty sure it won't be too bad.


wow... I really didn't mean to make this so long, I apologize to the people who actually read this, it's mostly just ramblings ^^;

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Fat Galahad

and hail against rain, seeing as Abomasnow could come in on any rain dance sweeper (I'm not sure how much kindra's draco meteor or ice beam would do against it)

Uhhhhh Kingdra's Draco Meteor is a surefire OHKO with max special attack and a Life Orb unless Abomasnow is carrying a large dose of special defense and a boosting nature. And Abomasnow isn't switcing into Kabutops or Omaster very often either...

Is auto-rain and/or auto-sun inherently broken?

No, it is certainly powerful, but I don't think we have enough data yet to make a decision. It is obviously more powerful than sand and hail, but I don't think that's any reason to disregard rain and sun because the other weathers dominate the current OU metagame. Rain and sun would have a serious affect on the usuage of MANY top OU pokemon. I think mass testing would help this.

If auto weather is NOT inherently broken -- what level of auto-weather is allows for acceptable competitive play?

I found that the limited weather was an equal balancing act. Rain and sun were given their auto weather, which was rightly granted, but because they have more power benefits, infinite rain and sun is just too difficult to counter. When I tested Drizzle Kyogre, Ludicolo would nearly 6-0 every team it came accross, and Kingdra the same, and thats just 3 slots on a team. What lets those two down in standard competitive play is the fact that they ARE on a time limit, because I don't see Tyranitar switching in on their STAB attacks very often. I run a standard rain team in OU, and Tyranitar is usually the only answer, but the opponent has to sacrifice a pokemon every time just to change it back to sand. It also is noted that removing the conflicting weather abuser leads to a rapid death of the other team, as I resorted to using Dugtrio to trap Tar, and then get 6-0 sweeps against nearly every sandstorm team. In conclusion, I think that the auto-weather is very fair with the limiting factor.

Is auto-weather still "familiar" to good players?

Skilled players will adapt. Vaporeon and Milotic are the bane of many rain teams, and are absolute hell when accompanied by Celebi and Blissey. Although the team can adapt (Signal Beaming Kingdra's and Energy Balling Ludicolos, etc.) they lose type coverage and effectiveness. When taking about sun, Tyranitar is a common way to fault a sun team, changing the weather, destroying solarbeams, and neutering the team in general. I think there are sufficient counters, but the metagame will adapt.

 

[Stall]

Uhhhhh Kingdra's Draco Meteor is a surefire OHKO with max special attack and a Life Orb unless Abomasnow is carrying a large dose of special defense and a boosting nature. And Abomasnow isn't switcing into Kabutops or Omaster very often either...

Thing is, none of that matters. As long as Abomasnow can come in on Kyogre(tte) infinitely, it won't ever have to switch into Kingdra, Kabutops, Omastar, or any other Rain sweeper.

---

Is auto-rain and/or auto-sun inherently broken?

No. I don't even know that it is necessarily better than Sandstorm or Hail. While Rain/Sun can be all the set-up several top-notch sweepers need, I don't see that as being any more dangerous than the defensive levels reached by their Sand/Hail counterparts, such as Stallrein or Shuckle. From what I can see, the problem isn't that the new weather conditions are too good, but just that they are new. The problem that have arisen since the unbanning of Kyogre and Groudon are no larger than I would expect from addind Tyranitar/Hippowdon or Abomasnow into OU.

If auto weather is NOT inherently broken -- what level of auto-weather is allows for acceptable competitive play?

I think that Wet Spell and Dry Spell hit the nail right on the head when it comes to balancing the weather abilities. The duration is long enough to allow the weather user some time to make use of the conditions, but short enough that their opponent, with good prediction, will be able to significantly decrease the amount of useful turns the weather provides. I also like that the option is there for the weather inducer to give up its item in order to extend the duration of the weather.

Is auto-weather still "familiar" to good players?

Not at all. I don't see that as being a problem, though. Entering DP, Hail and Trick Room weren't 'familiar' to players, either. Any time you make any sort of change worth making to a metagame, it will cause all the players to adapt to its effect. The whole point of this entire project is to make changes to the current metagame, and so I think its unfair to dismiss any change based on the fact that it is not 'familiar' to players.

reserving rant about how weather shouldnt even be considered unless alongside it you make a weather remover, not air lock.

I agree entirely. I think the next project should be a 3-part project with 3 Pokemon. One with Wet Spell, one with Dry Spell, and one with Clear Skies.

 

[tennisace]

reserving rant about how weather shouldnt even be considered unless alongside it you make a weather remover, not air lock.

Is auto sun/ auto sun broken
AHAHAHA. Holy shit is this broken. Nevermind that Rain Teams destroy Normal non-weather teams, they destroy every other weather too. Kingdra with auto rain can use Waterfall/Hydro Pump/Draco Meteor/Ice Beam and RAPE, Omastar, Kabutops, Floatzel, and Ludicolo are beasts. The list goes on and on. Where you only have a few pokemon benifiting Hail, and one type benifiting Sand, Rain allows many pokemon to benifit. Gengar, Jolteon, Electrivire, Zapdos, and Bulky Waters can use Thunder with no drawbacks, murdering things that could usually take the hit. You cant even bring in a Sand Stream user on fear of Surf. The auto weather is broken beyond belief, and we should let the metagame develop more before we bring this up again.

If auto weather is NOT inherently broken -- what level of auto-weather is allows for acceptable competitive play?
Its broken and over-centralizing. If you don't use the weather, you must at least carry a Garchomp, Kingdra, Chloraphyll user, or Hail user to take advantage of it. In ubers, its ok, but it really has no place in standards.

Is auto-weather still "familiar" to good players?
If you play ubers, yes. However, even if you use a OU Sand team or Hail team, Rain plays totally different. There are certain pokemon that you should use, and some you shouldn't. Its a new metagame, so to speak.

In conclusion, we should wait a while before trying this again. When and if we do make it, we should make it in a set of three to balance it out.

 

[demozi]

sun or sand for me plz

 

[Tsukikage]

Is auto-rain and/or auto-sun inherently broken?

I'm going to go against what most have been saying and say no. I haven't been testing as long as some others, but I don't think it was anywhere near broken. The only issue was that it seemed like unless the opponent had weather, a rain team was unstoppable, but if the opponent did have weather, it was easily brought down to size, especially hail. Although I've yet to test my HP Fire Kyogre, I feel that this will not change sufficiently.


If auto-weather is NOT inherently broken -- what level of auto-weather allows for acceptable competitive play?

Perma-rain or perma-sun though, could be bad. I think that what made it not broken was the fact that I either had to keep track of turns, or wait until the perfect time to keep my rain from going away. This being said, if the opponent were also to keep track, they could send in their Kyogre counter in when they expected me to get rain started again. Making the rain/sun have a turn limit would be a great start and if through further testing we find that it is not enough, we can make perma-weather, but I do not believe this to be the case. I think that this could be a shift in the game for sure. It may knock some OU Pokes down a notch, but some UUs that normally wouldn't see the light of day would see some use. For example: Kabutops. With only 80 Base Speed and an unfortunate Rock/Water typing, it wouldn't even be considered for many teams, but with rain, it completely demolishes a lot of things thanks to Swift Swim allowing it not to need a Scarf to keep up with everything, thus allowing it to have more options and not needing to waste a turn switching. Omastar, Ludicolo, Kingdra, Poliwrath, Vaporeon, Qwilfish, Gorebyss, Floatzel, and anything that can learn Thunder that would do more damage than Thunderpunch/Fang on their set would see a lot more usage. That's just from rain.


Is auto-weather still "familiar" to good players?

Even before I started testing with a rain team of my own, I was easily able to adapt to opponents using rain or sun. This will also get better over time. I think right now, some players are thinking "Does Kingdra outspeed Scarfchomp in the rain?" and cross their fingers, but once they get used to the style, they'll think "Oh shit! Kingdra outspeeds Scarfchomp in the rain and OHKOs with Ice Beam! I better switch!" I'm agreeing with some others that this can't be compared to previous CAPs. Bringing weather to the metagame is an entirely new concept, not just one new Pokemon even if that one Pokemon is a new typing or a new style or whatever.

Hope I helped!

 

[Captain]

I just got a great log concerning kyorgette. Definitely should be read, imo.

Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Species Clause, Timed Battle
Captain sent out Hippowdon (lvl 100 Hippowdon ?).
Bi Syclant sent out Bell End (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Hippowdon's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
Captain switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Bell End used Hypnosis.
Bell End's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Captain switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Bell End used Hypnosis.
Bell End's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
---
matty. has entered the room.
Bi Syclant: damn
Captain switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Bell End used Hypnosis.
Heatran fell asleep!
The sandstorm rages.
---
Bi Syclant: matty you cant watch
Captain: yes
Bi Syclant: if you're in the tourney
Captain: no watching matty
Bi Syclant: you're seeing our teams
matty. has left the room.
Captain switched in Shuckle (lvl 100 Shuckle ?).
Bi Syclant switched in Kyogrette (Wet Spell) (lvl 78 Kyogre).
Kyogrette (Wet Spell)'s Wet Spell caused a storm!
The sandstorm stopped.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Captain switched in Revenankh (lvl 100 Revenankh ?).
Kyogrette (Wet Spell) used Water Spout.
Revenankh lost 42% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Revenankh's leftovers restored its health a little!
Revenankh restored 6% of its health.
---
Bi Syclant switched in Chili (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Revenankh used Hammer Arm.
Chili lost 54% of its health.
Revenankh's speed was lowered.
The rain continues to fall.
Revenankh's leftovers restored its health a little!
Revenankh restored 6% of its health.
---
Chili used Surf.
Revenankh lost 35% of its health.
Revenankh used Hammer Arm.
Chili lost 57% of its health.
Bi Syclant's Chili fainted.
Revenankh's speed was lowered.
The rain continues to fall.
Revenankh's leftovers restored its health a little!
Revenankh restored 6% of its health.
---
Bi Syclant switched in Mary Rose (lvl 100 Kingdra ?).
Bi Syclant: ouch
Captain: adamant hammer arm really makes a difference
Bi Syclant: yeah! carnage
Captain switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Bi Syclant switched in Doomfart (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
The rain continues to fall.
---
Doomfart used Shadow Ball.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 93% of its health.
Doomfart lost 10% of its health.
Celebi used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Doomfart lost 106% of its health.
Bi Syclant's Doomfart fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Bi Syclant switched in Mary Rose (lvl 100 Kingdra ?).
Captain switched in Hippowdon (lvl 100 Hippowdon ?).
Hippowdon's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
The rain stopped.
A sandstorm brewed!
Mary Rose used Surf.
It's super effective!
Hippowdon lost 114% of its health.
Captain's Hippowdon fainted.
Mary Rose lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Mary Rose is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Mary Rose lost 6% of its health.
---
Hippowdon has already fainted!
Captain switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Celebi used Recover.
Celebi restored 50% of its health.
Mary Rose used Draco Meteor.
Mary Rose's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Mary Rose is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Mary Rose lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Celebi used Grass Knot.
Mary Rose lost 48% of its health.
Mary Rose used Toxic.
Celebi was badly poisoned!
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Mary Rose is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Mary Rose lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Celebi is hurt by poison!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
---
Bi Syclant switched in Bi Syclant (lvl 100 Syclant ?).
Celebi used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
Bi Syclant lost 26% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Bi Syclant is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Bi Syclant lost 6% of its health.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Celebi is hurt by poison!
Celebi lost 12% of its health.
---
doctor_downes has entered the room.
doctor_downes: go capin
Captain switched in Shuckle (lvl 100 Shuckle ?).
Bi Syclant used Swords Dance.
Bi Syclant's attack was sharply raised.
The sandstorm rages.
Bi Syclant is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Bi Syclant lost 6% of its health.
---
Bi Syclant used U-turn.
Shuckle lost 45% of its health.
doctor_downes: power swap
Bi Syclant switched in Kyogrette (Wet Spell) (lvl 78 Kyogre).
Kyogrette (Wet Spell)'s Wet Spell caused a storm!
The sandstorm stopped.
Rain began to fall!
Bi Syclant lost 10% of its health.
Shuckle used Encore.
But it failed!
The rain continues to fall.
Shuckle's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shuckle restored 6% of its health.
---
Captain switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Kyogrette (Wet Spell) used Water Spout.
It's not very effective...
Celebi lost 37% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
doctor_downes: gk
Bi Syclant switched in Bi Syclant (lvl 100 Syclant ?).
Celebi used Recover.
Celebi restored 50% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
doctor_downes: lol
Bi Syclant used Swords Dance.
Bi Syclant's attack was sharply raised.
Celebi used Psychic.
A critical hit!
Bi Syclant lost 117% of its health.
Bi Syclant's Bi Syclant fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Bi Syclant switched in Mary Rose (lvl 100 Kingdra ?).
Captain: in your heart you will find
Captain: cosmic eternity
Bi Syclant: i'm going down
Mary Rose used Draco Meteor.
Celebi lost 70% of its health.
Mary Rose's special attack was harshly lowered.
Mary Rose lost 10% of its health.
Celebi used Psychic.
Mary Rose lost 41% of its health.
Bi Syclant's Mary Rose fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
doctor_downes: yup
Bi Syclant switched in Bell End (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Captain: ./wall cosmic eternity!
Celebi used Recover.
Celebi restored 50% of its health.
Bell End used Explosion.
Celebi lost 75% of its health.
Captain's Celebi fainted.
Bi Syclant's Bell End fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Captain switched in Revenankh (lvl 100 Revenankh ?).
Bi Syclant switched in Kyogrette (Wet Spell) (lvl 78 Kyogre).
Kyogrette (Wet Spell)'s Wet Spell caused a storm!
Bi Syclant: mwah ha ha not so eternal now
Kyogrette (Wet Spell) used Surf.
Revenankh lost 29% of its health.
Revenankh used Moonlight.
Revenankh restored 50% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Revenankh's leftovers restored its health a little!
Revenankh restored 6% of its health.
---
Kyogrette (Wet Spell) used Water Spout.
Revenankh lost 42% of its health.
Revenankh used Hammer Arm.
Revenankh's attack missed!
The rain stopped.
Revenankh's leftovers restored its health a little!
Revenankh restored 6% of its health.
---
Kyogrette (Wet Spell) used Water Spout.
Revenankh lost 43% of its health.
Captain's Revenankh fainted.
---
Captain: noooo
Captain: >_>
Captain: my song was made meaningless
Bi Syclant: weird that the rain has stopped tho
Captain: by my loss against scarforge
doctor_downes has left the room.
Captain switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Bi Syclant: shouldn't it have restarted when Ky switched in?
Kyogrette (Wet Spell) used Surf.
Forretress lost 58% of its health.
Forretress used Rapid Spin.
Kyogrette (Wet Spell) lost 8% of its health.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Captain: weather effects don't work that way
Captain: meh gg
Captain: darn scarforge
Captain: >_>
Bi Syclant: ahh well it had a good run
doctor_downes has entered the room.

 

[jagged_angel]

I'm Bi Syclant on the CAP server btw. Damn I forgot about Hypnosis missing 3 times in a row :-)


Yeah that was quite a good example of how Sand Stream teams can't afford to lose their weather starter against rain, or they're doomed.

So Dougs post on the verdict of auto weather Hasn't been conclusively answered as far as I can see.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yes it has. Rain is broken. Period. There is just no answer to auto rain, especially against a good abuser of it. I was testing for it, and basically plowed through every team with just wet spell, mainly because I focused on a Kyogre that could take enough hits to replenish the weather whenever necessary. To this day that team is still undefeated in 20+ battles.

 

[chaos 9]

I would like to join a team as I saw in the OP that not all teams are filled. I would prefer teams in this order
Blue
Red
Purple
Pink

Yeah i would mostly like to test rain/sun teams they are new and different and like someone said earlier, I am in a slump and maybe this will be fun.

 

[tennisace]

Weather testing is long over. You're about a month late. Mod Lock please? This has been a successful test in my eyes, we concluded that auto-rain/sun are broken no matter the duration.

 

[chaos 9]

dang oh well. imo a 5 turn rain/sun with kyogrette and groudono would be ok but w/e.

 

[TekkenStorm]

Hell no, sun is no where broken. Has anyone here tested atleast? all i have seen are a bunch of guys saying rain is broken which i agree but almost no argument about sun and we conclude its broken too :/

 

[Elevator Music]

I would agree it's not as broken, but it still is threatening (and overcentralizing).

I could argue the only thing that stops a Sun sweep is Sand. But that would imply you either need to run a Sand team or a Sun team to have a shot at winning. Combine that with the fact we just created a pokemon that can take advantage of both the boosted Fire and a STAB Solarbeam that can threaten a Tar or Hippo switchin due to it's bulk and strength and it just seems crazy. Sorry this is theorymon, but I didn't see a lot of good logs to back it up.

Also, testing is over on the server, correct?