Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)

[Dane]

How is it a bad idea? You're telling me you actually like giving a Pokemon such a "burden" move in terms of base power? Nearly everyone wants unblockable Rapid Spin but no one want a Rapid Spin with like 60 to 80 BP, this logic does not compute.

People want unblockable Rapid Spin so that it's effect is usable, not so they can deal damage with it.

How is dealing out some damage considered a "side effect". The removal of spikes and other entry hazards is the effect, not the damage. If doing damage was considered it's side effect did why give it an attack power if the first place? How is it that you feel increasing a move like Rapid Spin BP a bad thing?

Main effect is the main purpose of the move. The main purpose is to remove entry hazards. The fact that it even deals damage is secondary. Therefore, damage is a side effect.

 

[Paltheos]

To everyone proposing a Ground or Electric-type Rapid Spin, I'm not keen on this idea. I understand wanting to be sure that a new Rapid Spin doesn't completely destroy stall, but this seems to stray too far from the intent behind creating a Scrappy Rapid Spinner - providing a more reliable way to remove field objects (the same rationale applies to not. Ground and electric immunities are all very common on stall teams, and I don't see how this pokemon could be suitably compensated so as not to be underpowered. If you insist on a typed Rapid Spin, try one that has fewer immunities that can still be countered by stall teams.

I've considered Water, but Water Absorbers tend to be bulky and not easy to OHKO (particularly Vaporeon). This spinner needs to pose an immediate, major threat to its blocker. As such, I'm more inclined toward a Fire-type Rapid Spin, to which Heatran is the only common counter on stall teams. To offset this, we give the user Earthquake and enough attack power to OHKO all variants of Heatran. Defensive prowess and speed is much more community preferential. Heatran should pose an immediate threat to this poke, but should this poke be a fire-resist that's weak to one of Heatran's other common moves, or should he be fire-neutral/weak, a "reward" of sorts for good prediction on part of the Heatran user? I'm leaning toward lower base speed so that the spinner user is forced to use prediction to get around Heatran. Higher speed is also viable, but I'm not sure how impacting encouraging Heatran *and* Scarves would be. Heatran is already very common on stall teams, particularly as a restalker, so not much might change if this new poke is slower. Encouraging a restriction on Heatran's role would indeed also restrict the variety possible for stall teams; on the flip side, the boosts would further our purpose of finding a more reliable way of removing field obstructions. How far does everyone want to go?

How is dealing out some damage considered a "side effect". The removal of spikes and other entry hazards is the effect, not the damage. If doing damage was considered it's side effect did why give it an attack power if the first place? How is it that you feel increasing a move like Rapid Spin BP a bad thing?

If I had to guess: If Rapid Spin had no BP, it could not be used as an attack and thus could not be blocked by Ghosts. It would be a support move usable under any circumstances. It's impossible to know for certain, but it's probable that was Gamefreak's intention, and thus it made Rapid Spin an attack, and gave it an abysmal BP, only a bit more than half that of Tackle.

 

[TekkenStorm]

I smell a Torkoal evolution comment is coming....

 

[MegaBuddha]

Out of all possible types for a new rapid spin, I like Psychic and Ground most.
Ground so the only (common) staler is Skarmory to block it
Psychic would get more people to use Tyranitar. But I'd want tyranitar to actually counter it decently. Don't give it the rapid spin, and close combat or EQ or something, and good p.atk. =/

EDIT: I like Ghost too, but please don't let it OHKO Blissey. =/

 

[Dane]

Out of all possible types for a new rapid spin, I like Psychic and Ground most.
Ground so the only (common) staler is Skarmory to block it

Most Ghosts could counter ground too, since many have Levitate.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

EDIT: I like Ghost too, but please don't let it OHKO Blissey. =/

The pokemon using the spin or the actual move?

 

[Deck Knight]

Blastoise is currently the most solid and reliable defensive spinner. It has ways to deal with Ghosts and isn't Pursuit-bait. The Spinner Blastoise I run is Surf/Rapid Spin/Toxic/Mirror Coat. Only Sub+CM Mismagius defeats it outright, since Gengar eats Mirror Coat and the rest of the Ghosts get Toxic'd. It isn't an immediate solution to them, but it prevents Spiritomb and Dusknoir from stalling much.

Honestly, the only way to "block" Rapid Spin is having a non-fainted Ghost on your team that can safely switch in. Unblockable Spin is still highly situational. Otherwise it's basically creating a pokemon with 3 moves and no ability.

 

[Stall]

As such, I'm more inclined toward a Fire-type Rapid Spin, to which Heatran is the only common counter on stall teams. To offset this, we give the user Earthquake and enough attack power to OHKO all variants of Heatran.

So...what was the point in letting Heatran being able to block the Spin, again?

 

[MegaBuddha]

The pokemon using the spin or the actual move?

Pokemon. IE don't give it this spin, and 100+ base attack and close combat. =/

 

[Stall]

Honestly, I think the best way would be a Pokemon with Donphan-esque stats, but having both Rapid Spin and Ghost Spin.

 

[Paltheos]

So...what was the point in letting Heatran being able to block the Spin, again?

Fire may be too extreme (or at least the worst case scenario I have listed), but I'm having trouble finding a better middle ground. Choosing types which have immunities common to stall teams makes enabling the spinner to handle all its common switch-ins a tough task. My idea remedies that by reducing the number of common switch-ins to prevent the spin while increasing reliance on prediction. Poor prediction on the part of the spinner can result in either a Flash Fire for Heatran or a free switch-in for an EQ immune.

Your objection is probably that in the long-term the staller would give way to poor prediction and lose a pokemon, his field objects, or both, unless we nerfed this pokemon, in which case he may become too situational and therefore impractical. Maybe, but I don't see how that's unacceptable (those points alone do not determine the outcome of the battle; the staller may still have the upper hand through residual damage built up in the mean time or other circumstances). It was my understanding that the purpose of the Scrappy spinner was to produce a better spinner, not a different one. Producing a purely different one creates either a similar situation (having access to only one RS move and not posing an immediate threat to its counters) or a guessing game (should the pokemon have access to 2 RS moves, but, by their very nature, your odds are 50/50 unless the metagame somehow trends toward one). If people want that, then by all means take it. This is their metagame.

PS: I didn't note this is in my original post, but I'd recommend that such a spinner *not* have access to the original Rapid Spin.

 

[Dane]

I like the idea of ghost. Stall teams already pack Blissey as a normal type, but she can't really lay down other layers, so there's no need for worry that she'll setup moreso after you fail to spin what's already there.

On the other hand, poison has an added advantage of being able to absorb toxic spikes, and still gets walled by common Skarmory/Forretress. The ability to absorb spikes is likely what makes Tentacruel one of the best current spinners, since it won't get Toxic'd while coming in.

...Perhaps a Ghost spinner, for Blissey to wall it, with Steel secondary. This way, Blissey can wall it, it's immune to Toxic Spikes, it's resistant to Stealth Rocks, yet still very fragile. It would be countered by both Dugtrio and Magnezone, being trapped by both.

Of course, Poison or Psychic can also be used in place of ghost, but I don't think any Dark Pokemon are being used for anything outside of Weaville.

In short, I'm rambling due to being tired. Ghost and Poison are best options for typing, due to not screwing stall teams too much, and the actual typing of the Pokemon doesn't matter, since it's not like there are any "Normal Type" rapid spinners anyway.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

It's not like there are any "Normal Type" rapid spinners anyway.

Does Lickilicky learn Rapid Spin *look at serebii* I'm shocked such a fat and ball shaped Pokemon can't use it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It gets Gyro Ball, if it's any consolation.

 

[Time Mage]

Of course, Poison or Psychic can also be used in place of ghost, but I don't think any Dark Pokemon are being used for anything outside of Weaville.

{I think someone's forgetting me...}

 

[Aldaron]

lol

Really quick question though...why are we discussing Rapid Spinning in the Weather Effects topic? :X

 

[Captain]

We recently got bored of that. Rapid Spin is the hot item now!

Other than that I don't know. Most people generally don't seem to be into actually making new topics. Subject changing is just how it goes sometimes, I guess.

Should I make a rapid spin topic mainly for the sake of decreasing topic clutter?
It does seem that everyone has forgotten about weather and moved onto rapid spin, though. But that could change. *eye roll* what am I supposed to do?

 

[Aldaron]

What happened to the idea of the Scrappy Spinner?

 

[Captain]

Like I said, people just wandered off topic at some point. I think the main reason was "we don't want to sacrifice an ability in order to improve spinning."

 

[Stall]

Like I said, people just wandered off topic at some point. I think the main reason was "we don't want to sacrifice an ability in order to improve spinning."

Actually, in my case, it's more of a 'Scrappy Rapid Spin is broken'.

 

[Aki]

I say we need a thread/sticky for discussing possible projects for Future CAP's.

All who agree, post "Aye".

 

[Darkflagrance]

I say we need a thread/sticky for discussing possible projects for Future CAP's.

All who agree, post "Aye".

Silly Aki! We don't need democracy - all we need is for a mod to set up the new thread and direct discussion there.

 

[Grawl]

Is making a Flying Spinner an option? He'll be able to spin (or blow) away all hazards, but is handicapped by a weakness to Stealth Rock. If that makes him too weak, you could even let the move blow the hazards to the other side of the field, which would mean the opponent now has to deal with them.

 

[Mekkah]

Apparently Scrappy Rapid Spin is broken on anything, so putting it on a Flying type won't help!!!!!

I'm totally opposed to reflecting them back on the opponent. That is just very mean.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I considered closing this thing a long time ago. But, I'm debating how to handle these kinds of discussions. I have posted my concerns in the Process Workshop in this post:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1157499&postcount=304

If you want to comment on that post, do so in that thread.

Do not make a new thread for a Rapid Spin discussion. Pending a decision in the Process Workshop on the fate of these kinds of discussions, feel free to continue the party here in this thread, even though it is completely off-topic.

Don't expect it to last long though. I plan to resolve this issue in the very near future.